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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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fuhrmann
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Loc: Switzerland
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109683 - 13/07/08 10:36 PM

Quote:



yes, its my understanding that every other bullet design than a roundball fired without a spin will keyholing when it leave the barrel. straigth rifling will not change this,it's physics, the only thing straigth rifling will do is to give higher pressure. smooth barrels give lower pressure with slug's than with shotloads.
maybe there was some kind of "magic" thinking about straight rifling around in this days. a point most time's overlocked. and dont forget that not everything is rigth because it's to find in period books. they have making the same kind's of error's like we do.
muzzle velocity's and energy's are the same the guy's were knowing from the muzzle loader before. that make them surprise about the flat shoting 11 mm /.45 cartridges that come in use after 1870.
nobody have ever dream of such ballistic before.




Lancaster,

now I understand why you were puzzled - to our current understanding such bullets should not work with smoothbores.
It will be difficult for us to find out what shooters thought back then (interesting to note that they were all reloaders, too), and why they did certain things. There may be rational reasons, some old superstitions or simply crazy ideas. Actually, it's quite the same as today ....

To our modern understanding, those old muzzleloading rifles and the first breechloaders were really underpowered. Still the old-timers managed to bring down big game, but it was not a simple task.
Here is an excerpt from a German book on big game hunting (Die Hohe Jagd, 1905). In short, it says that with the then modern BP express and nitro cartridges the need of searching for wounded game is much smaller.

„.... dass infolge der Verbesserung unserer Jagdwaffen die Nachsuche nicht entfernt mehr die Bedeutung hat, wie noch vor 40 Jahre. Als ich damals in die Jägerpraxis eintrat, schoss noch die Mehrzahl der Hochwildjäger mit Rundkugeln aus Vorderladerbüchsen, selbst wenn sie beim Scheibenschiessen die Spitzkugel bevorzugten; wer über 100 Schritt hinaus auf einen nicht ganz breit stehenden Hirsch schoss, wurde leichtsinnig genannt, wo man auf gute Jagdpflege hielt.
Damals gaben weite, langdauernde Nachsuchen den Hauptgesprächsstoff unter Jägern ab; mit Spannung folgte man den ausführlichen Erzählungen alter Weidmänner über die Wechselfälle einer solchen Nachsuche ..... . Wer sich lässig oder ungewandt bei der Nachsuche zeigte, konnte trotz aller sonstiger Geschicklichkeit im Anbirschen oder Schiessen nicht Anspruch auf den Namen eines guten Jägers machen.
Wie hat sich das durch die Verwendung von Expressbüchsen und Büchsen mit Mantelgeschossen und Nitropulver geändert! Die Mehrzahl der einigermassen gut getroffenen Stücke liegt im Feuer oder bricht angesichts des Schützen zusammen, tut sich bei weniger guten Schüssen in geringer Entfernung schon nieder, sodass man das Verenden abwarten oder nach vorsichtiger Annäherung, oft auch ohne solche, durch einen zweiten Schuss beschleunigen kann ....
In meiner Jugend war es das gewöhnliche, dass beschossenes Rotwild dem Schützen aus den Augen entschwand. Dann wurde der Anschuss aufgesucht und, fand man Birschzeichen, die auf einen guten Schuss hindeuteten, so wartete man dennoch, indem man sich hinsetzte, das mitgenommene Frühstück verzehrte oder sich die Pfeife ansteckte, oder eins nach dem andern tat, eine bis zwei Stunden; oft ging man auch nach Hause, um nach mehreren Stunden mit einem oder mehreren Jagdgefährten zum Anschusse zurückzukehren. War ein Schweisshund zur Verfügung, so musste schon deshalb einige Stunden gewartet werden, weil dieser, damit er ferm bleibt, nur auf kalten Fährten gearbeitet werden soll. Die am Nachmittag beschossenen Stücke, deren Zusammenbrechen man nicht sah oder hörte, durften erst am nächsten Morgen aufgesucht werden und waren dann häufig schon anbrüchig. War ein schlechter Schuss zu vermuten, so wurde auch bei hellem Tage 5-6 Stunden mit der Nachsuche gewartet.
Das ist jetzt vorbei; Vorderladerbüchsen sind wohl nirgends mehr im Gebrauch, sehr selten noch Lefaucheux-Büchsen. Die Wirkung der modernen Waffen und Geschosse .... ist eine derartige, dass Nachsuchen zu den Ausnahmen gehören. Soll man das beklagen? Wohl hatten die Nachsuchen einen grossen Reiz und gaben dem Jäger vortreffliche Gelegenheit, seine weidmännischen Fähigkeiten zu üben; dem standen aber die verlängerten Todesqualen des angeschossenen Wildes gegenüber.“


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109690 - 14/07/08 05:15 AM

Gentlemen-

I need to learn to read and speak German.
As a native of the west coast of north america, mexican spanish has been a very valuable second language.
For my interest in the history of sporting arms and the 'old world' of european hunting, I need to learn German.

This may well be my next big project.

Thank you for sharing what you have here, and special thanks for sharing this information in the english language.


--Tinker


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109712 - 14/07/08 01:58 PM

fuhrmann, this text is a key for the understanderstanding of the change that happens in the years between 1870 und 1900. hunting wasn't the same und you will find that shoting game with muzzle loader in this time was very different from hunting we know it today. who has the time to make a classic translation for the international audience now?

tinker it will be interessting to see you pinfire cartridge's, the bullets and case constructions and chamber cast's

will be continued

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109714 - 14/07/08 02:21 PM

Lancaster-

I am having a bit of trouble walking lately.
Getting out to my machineshop or up to my loading room is for right now quite a pain.
It will probabally be another week until I can get around well enough to get to these components and photograph them for our friends here to see.

On bullets, I have only run roundball through these rifles.
Without a better understanding of the shape, weight, and specific dimensions of the 19th century CatsHead bullet, I won't attempt to make a mould or run them in my rifles.

The page with the paper and brass case cats head bullet drawings and dimensions isn't clear enough for me to read the print.
Can you list the figures and/or generate a higher-resolution image of that page?

Please bear with me on my photography homework for this thread.
I will have more to contribute as soon as I can!

In the meantime, I will look forward to a better translation of that text than I'm getting from the free online text translators.

Like I said above, I really need to learn to read and speak German!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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fuhrmann
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109715 - 14/07/08 03:05 PM

Quote:

fuhrmann, this text is a key for the understanderstanding of the change that happens in the years between 1870 und 1900. hunting wasn't the same und you will find that shoting game with muzzle loader in this time was very different from hunting we know it today. who has the time to make a classic translation for the international audience now?





Lancaster,
I will do a translation, but it may take some time.
Fuhrmann


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109716 - 14/07/08 03:22 PM

Fuhrmann, Lancaster


I appreciate the efforts of both of you.
Your contributions via this thread are very valuable!


--Tinker


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109717 - 14/07/08 06:00 PM

Lancaster, when you use the sauvestre french slugs do you use them in a smoothbore or a rifled barrel. Do they work in a smoothbore accurately ? thanks, Mike

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xausa
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109737 - 15/07/08 01:35 AM

I'll take a shot at a translation:

"...that as a result of the improvements in our hunting weapons the search for wounded game has nowhere near as much importance as it did 40 years ago. At that time, when I was beginning my hunting experience, most deer and boar hunters still used round balls and muzzle loading rifles, even though they preferred pointed bullets for target shooting; whoever attempted to hit a red deer at more than a hundred meters, unless it was standing broadside, would be condemned as a risk taker as far as good hunting ethics was concerned.

At that time, a long time consuming search for a wounded animal was the main topic of conversation among hunters; the detailed description of such a search was listened to with excitement. Whoever showed himself lacking in tracking skills would be considered unworthy of the name of hunter, despite whatever skills in stalking or shooting he might possess.

How that has changed with the introduction of express rifles, jacketed bullets and smokeless powder! The majority of fairly well hit game animals fall in their tracks or collapse within sight of the hunter, or fall down only a short distance away, even in the case of less successful shots, so that the hunter can wait a short time for them to expire, or by using a careful approach, or even without one, a quick death can be sped up with a second shot.

In my youth it was customary that wounded red deer disappeared from the hunter's view. Then the location of the wounded animal at the moment of the shot was identified and even if a blood trail indicated a well placed shot, the hunter waited a while, perhaps ate the breakfast he had brought with him or smoked his pipe, or both, one after the other, for one or two hours. Often the hunter went home and returned with one or more fellow hunters to the location of the blood trail. Even if a tracking dog was available, he still had to wait a while, since, in order to keep the dog in top form, he would only be allowed to follow a cold trail. Animals which were shot in the afternoon, unless they were seen or heard to have collapsed, would only be searched for the next morning, by which time the meat had often already spoiled. If the shot was suspected of having been poorly placed, then even in broad daylight the search would be postponed for 5-6 hours.

This is now a thing of the past. Muzzleloaders are certainly no longer used, not even Lefaucheaux (pinfire) rifles. The effect of modern weapons and projectiles is of such a nature that the search for wounded game is the exception. Is this something to complain about? Certainly the tracking of wounded game could be very appealing and presented the hunter with an excellent opportunity to display his hunting skills---but opposed to that is the drawn out suffering of the wounded game."


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: xausa]
      #109739 - 15/07/08 02:38 AM

excellent translation!!!

I am working on the pinfire bullet stuff but it needs some time

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (15/07/08 02:38 AM)


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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: xausa]
      #109740 - 15/07/08 02:39 AM

Xausa,

what a wonderful translation - it is certainly much better than any trial of mine.
Many thanks!
This will save me the time for another posting.

Fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #109741 - 15/07/08 02:41 AM

Quote:

Lancaster, when you use the sauvestre french slugs do you use them in a smoothbore or a rifled barrel. Do they work in a smoothbore accurately ? thanks, Mike


#

the sauvestre slug will only work in smoothbore's.
everyone who test them tell you that it's the most accurate slug he has ever fired - up to 100 meter's

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109744 - 15/07/08 03:10 AM

Lancaster,

you seem to have all the old catalogs that I have, plus much more!
Also apparently the great book "Die Jagd-Feuergewehre" by Adolf Zimmer from 1877.

What I can contribute is an excerpt from "Das Schiesswesen" from 1900 - this was an addendum to the hunting journal "Deutsche Jaeger-Zeitung".
This is the first solid ballistic table that I know of, with cartridges ranging from 6 mm Lee Navy to 4 bore elefant rifle. And there is one entry for a 24 gauge Lancaster cartridge.
I had no scanner available, so I copied the whole thing into an Excel file.
I have no means to post files or pictures here - could you assist me?

Fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109746 - 15/07/08 03:25 AM

fuhrmann, you have a PM

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109747 - 15/07/08 03:29 AM

Wow.

I can't wait to see the results of this.
You guys are a gift from the gods damas!


--Tinker


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109748 - 15/07/08 04:01 AM

ok, something completely different
the 1925 Manton /Calcutta catalog





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:42 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109749 - 15/07/08 04:05 AM

thats something I havn't seen here, it's the hornady XTP slug for the new generation of full riled bore guns. can anyone here tell me what diameter this softpoint have?


will be continued

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:43 PM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109752 - 15/07/08 05:09 AM

thanks Lancaster, a friend gave me a bunch of those Sauvestre slugs, I'll put a few of them through my Rem 870. Does anyone have a link where I can buy a short SMOOTHBORE barrel for my 870 that has rifle sights on it ? I have drawn a blank in Spain, best, Mike

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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109756 - 15/07/08 06:56 AM

Lancaster-

I'm pretty sure that the Hornady XTP shotgun slug is a .45 caliber 300gr in a sabot.
I don't see it on the current Hornady website though.

The current offering is an SST polymer-tipped spitzer shape .50 caliber bullet in a sabot.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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beleg2
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* [Re: tinker]
      #109767 - 15/07/08 12:05 PM

Post deleted by beleg2

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xausa
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* [Re: beleg2]
      #109774 - 15/07/08 02:00 PM

Post deleted by xausa

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beleg2
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: xausa]
      #109803 - 16/07/08 02:53 AM

xausa,
You are right!
i was just trying to help but your translation is much better.
Thanks
Martin


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: beleg2]
      #109810 - 16/07/08 04:18 AM

for tinker

there are not many today who understand how important the pin fire cartridge is, every shotgun cartridge is based on this development from Casimir Lefaucheux.it goes back to 1830 but was realy used 1836 in france. the british patent dates from 1846. you see the new breech loader take a slow walk into the world.we can say that it was accepted around 1850 but many hunter's who know it don't feel they need it.
it was allways the same with the new breechloader. the hunter bougth the primed case and loaded at home or let it loaded from his local gunmaker. I dont know when it starts that the pin fire shell producer start to load it, maybe not before 1860. but then it was allways a shotgun cartridge.I have not found any reference that there was short bore rifle paper case available from a manufacturer.
bore rifle pin fire guns are very rare, there was never enough demand. every rifle came with bullet mould like for a muzzle loading sporting rifle. handloading was common practice!

ok,we imagine a hunter in year of the lord 1855 with a brand new and sophisticated pin fire double rifle. his friends with th egood and only muzzle loader belief he is crazy now, such a breech loader is a mad thing, it will never happen. our hunter need ammo and he order pin fire case's from his gunmaker. it looks than like in 1927 when Fiocchi like most other big european ammo maker's are still making this:



maybe he knows the rigth length of the case, maybe not. he can cut the paper with a special tool like this



or do it the cheap way with a sharp knife. 30mm and 40mm seems to be the rule for a such cases but surviving examples show little difference's, handmade!


28 ga eley 28mm case length



16 ga eley 37,5mm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:43 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109812 - 16/07/08 04:26 AM



24 ga Braun&Bloem/Düseldorf 32mm case length





24 ga Bachmann/ Belgium 42mm






28 ga Sellier&Bellot 23mm




12mm Sellier&Bellot 30mmm


the 36ga was called 12mm and the 32 ga was called 14mm in this days




20 ga Gevelot 38mm



14 ga Gaupilat 36,7mm







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:44 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109813 - 16/07/08 04:32 AM

Lancaster-

I definitely do understand the significance of the pinfire system in the development of the sporting arms and the significance of it's European roots.
This is for the greatest part is what drives my interest in these beautiful and interesting guns, especially the bore rifles like the ones I own and shoot!

I must run off for physical therapy on my leg.
I will attempt to get out in the workshop this afternoon to photograph some of my old components, and some of the new ones that I have made for my rifles and guns.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109814 - 16/07/08 04:39 AM

the high of the lefaucheuxsystem was around 1875 and than begin to lost against the center fire more and more. it was in france where it best survive till WW 1. when Utendorfer or RWS making brass and bullets around the turn of the century the pin fire cartridge was in decline.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:45 PM)


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