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larcher
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Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho
      #95968 - 04/02/08 10:01 PM



From Paul Morris, Starrflight FOB fletching,

idaho's hunters

a scandal for sure
How can we help them??????????????????

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: larcher]
      #95970 - 04/02/08 10:33 PM

Hmmm, I don't know. Seems worryingly like the kind of tactics used by anti-hunting organisations.
Too much hype about being 30 miles from major towns and if the wolf put its paws on your shoulders it would be looking down on you.... And all the poor fluffy baby elk and bambi's mum, etc. Sorry - these campaigns leave me cold.

I'm sure there is an issue to be resolved, but at the same time, I believe that wolves have a place in the wilderness.

What's the deal with wiping out timber wolves? Is this just an influx from Canada or were the wrong type re-introduced?


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peter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95971 - 04/02/08 11:04 PM

im okay with people trying to spinn the issues like the anti's does but this is plain stupid.
let there be no misunderstanding, im all for controlling the wolf population.
this is just a really stupid way to gather support, yes the wolfes eat elk, and rightfully so. the thing i dont understand is the talk about the herds of elk, and there wont be any left soon, to me that sounds like farming, not hunting.

all in all lousy spinn in my book,

how can we help them, get them a better spinn doctor quick.

peter


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Ripp
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: peter]
      #95981 - 05/02/08 12:57 AM

Quote:

im okay with people trying to spinn the issues like the anti's does but this is plain stupid.
let there be no misunderstanding, im all for controlling the wolf population.
this is just a really stupid way to gather support, yes the wolfes eat elk, and rightfully so. the thing i dont understand is the talk about the herds of elk, and there wont be any left soon, to me that sounds like farming, not hunting.

all in all lousy spinn in my book,

how can we help them, get them a better spinn doctor quick.

peter





Peter

I have not watched the video clip yet--but let me just say, here in Montana--when they introduced the wolves in 1995 there was estimated to be 19,000 plus elk in the northern herd of Yellowstone National Park..with around a 24 to 30% recruitment rate of the young. As of last year it was slightly over 6000 with a recruitment rate of less than 5% --which can not support a herd.

Additionlly, I attend a Montana Dept. of Wildlife seminar recently..the big problem in Montana for many areas is the elk population is too large..and they are attempting to remedy that with more tags, longer seasons, etc...however in the area's where the wolves have been introduced...the Dept wants to reduce the tags available for elk by 50% as (for and inconclusive reason) the elk seem to be in trouble in those areas.. When I stood up and questioned the biologist, he vehemently denied it was because of wolves..which is udder and complete bullshit. Many of our state biologists have their own anit-hunting agenda they attempt to promote -both on and off the job.

So, to answer you concern above--can wolves destroy complete populations of game --the answer is YES..you have to look no further than this rediculous experiment they have done in the past 12 years. Now that the populations are above what the "greenies" agreed on for a sustainable population, that are sueing to prevent a hunting season to lower their numbers.

Another example is looking to Alaska--there has been more than one example of wolves completely detroying a local population of moose in a given area--all one needs to do is visit with some in the know in Alaska..

Do wolves have a place in the world..certainly...do they need to be managed..absolutely..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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peter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Ripp]
      #95987 - 05/02/08 01:30 AM

ripp

i agree fully with the need to control any predator, especially one that is so fast to reproduce itself.
my point and gripe was with that homepage, that were doing a clumsy job at generating interest in getting the wolfs on a ballot, copying anti's campaigns with a reverse spinn on the poor elk is not a very good idea, unless it is to aim for failure.

we have problems with the wolf population in sweden, growing at enormus rates at the moment, and no hunting allowed.

best regards

peter


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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: peter]
      #95996 - 05/02/08 03:54 AM

HA!- we've got lots - want some more? sorry, couldn't resist. I could understand some States wanting to import the best ungulate controller there is, due to over population of elk in some areas BUT, I couldn't understand why they imported so many, or both sexes. Of course, if barred mating, they'll mate with farm dogs instead of eating them. The cross is usally even more intellegent, not afraid of man at all, but usually smaller and less capable of widespread carnage of the larger species of ungulates. Too, the resulting population would be smaller due to less sex. Once there is a huge food sourse, the packs break up into siongle family packs which rapidly grow to huge packs themselves. Guess how many elk (or beef) it takes to feed 100 packs of 30 wolves each. Once you hear them howling, chasing game, al night long, from every direction, you'll get the idea a mistake has been made.
; Once they get a foothold in an area, with ranchers to support them, they become uncontrollable without drastic measures. I'm not a biologist, but have seen it happen here.
; Once they reduce an ungulate population to a minimum, not enough to support their own explosive populations, they concentrate on livesotck. That's when the $hit will really hit the fan. One rancher here lost every calf born in his herd after the wolves had cleaned all the deer off Grouse Mountain, West of Houston, BC. The ranch beside him, had 23 heffers in the pen by the house, every one of them with their mommy-ovens pulled from their butts, hanging between their hind legs. That was two attacks over two nights, 1/4 mile from the house. They appeared to be teaching their young to kill. No animals were killed outright during those attacks.
; Wolves can be a problem - indeed, are becoming a problem here again. It's up to the ranchers and hunters with airplanes to start putting out poisoned grease balls. That's the only thing that seems to work. Middle of lakes or huge fields in the winter is the best place and time. Most other preditors won't use the lakes or wide open spaces, that the wolves use. 10-80 works well and is almost canine specific if used correctly. They'll get wise to strycnine.
; I only have the most meager of knowledge on this stuff, but have observed the wolves 'effects' for over 30 years.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #96039 - 06/02/08 01:46 AM

It is really difficult to know where to start on this issue. Forgive me if the following seems somewhat stern and if I seem to have little sense of humor on the subject. I mean no disrespect to any of you, especially those who live far away and really have no idea what is going on here but are curious nevertheless. Glad to have your interest sparked!

The history in simple terms is that Canadian gray wolves were introduced to Idaho beginning in 1996. Some unknown number were released between that year and for some years subsequently. numbers are estimated at 600-1200 and growing. Federal quota is, I believe 104.

Idaho game management BEFORE the introduction of the wolf was an amazing success story. There did exist a small number of indigenous wolves in addition to large numbers of cougar, bear and coyote, all of which prey on ungulate species during certain times of the year {bear and coyote during calving, mostly}.

The human element has been the top of the food chain, and the ability to adjust management to area-specific increases and decreases {due to disease, hard winters, etc} in the ungulate population is possible. Idaho is a big state, about 1/2 the size of Sweden with 1/7 the population with many different climates and terrains.

Peter, the term "elk herds" refers to large drainages or areas where herds over time acquire a home range. Thus you will hear Idahoans speak in terms of the "Bond Creek Herd" or the "Hugus Creek Herd" or some such. Some of these areas are relatively small, some vast, the size of Odense for example. Such animals are not fenced in or otherwise contained and some of those animals do migrate hundreds of miles.

Honestly, I mean no disrespect, but when people say "I believe wolves have a place in the wilderness" it demonstrates their complete lack of knowledge of wolf habits and the natural history of Idaho. This is a very common statement made by outsiders. Idaho is a land of animals and working people; towns, mining, hunting, farming, ranching, logging. What is "wilderness"? Usually, it means "somebody elses back yard".

"Wilderness" is a concept that Easterners and Europeans love to associate with the West. Or better put, those who don't live there love to associate with somewhere somebody else lives. Outsiders love to place their own philosophical constructs of "the way it was" on areas in order to feel like they are fixing the problems people have made. Trouble is, people are here to stay, and people have done a darn good job of building the "herds" and there is no earthly need to introduce ANOTHER carnivore into the sytem. We have plenty as it is, plenty of competitors with US.

It is also extremely naive to think in terms of releasing wolves in a certain spot as if they will stay there. Anyone who has a mental picture of these wolves remaining in a certain drainage or even state are deluded. Wolves travel VAST distances and descendents of wolves released in Idaho are already in Oregon.

Sorry folks, but you do not release wolves into country as diverse as what exists in Idaho and then using normal hunting methods control them. It is very similar to releasing a little smallpox just to make sure there is genetic diversity in the biosphere.

I confess I see wolves in terms as nothing more or less than a disease; brucellosis, snotsiekte, rinderpest, white line, hoof rot, orf, tapeworms, etc. They are in effect a four-footed disease, and serve no purpose in the ecosystems of Idaho than to replace man from the position of top dog, with the exception that rather than making their kills useful to people they perpetuate the disease. Remember Dr Zhivago looking into the microscope and being amazed at the beauty of the microbial activity? Then the instructor informing him that thos beautiful organisms do very ugly things to people? So goes the wolf in my opinion. I do not find the pretty, interesting, cuddly or necessary. And I see no difference between the release of the wolf in Idaho or the release of foot rot or BSE in England, or snotsiekte in RSA, or rhinonuminitis or West Nile Virus in Denmark. We vaccinate our cattle, sheep and horses against these scourges. What if the Government stepped in a said you horse lovers were no longer able to legally vaccinate your stock against this disease or that. Such was the situation with wolves and only recently may we shoot them in self defence or to defend stock. But we don't need them in the first place, and we can't be where they are very time!

Federal government quota has already been reached. The State of Idaho is attempting to establish a hunting season. These attempts will be harrassed by very well-funded extremists who will file suit to stop the process. All the while, wolf numbers will continue to grow at c. 30% annual recruitment, devastating the herds. Human hunting will be required to be restricted in order to accomodate the wolves. In fact, most of us believe the main reason for the funding of wolf recovery lawsuits is to cause the destruction or dramatic reduction of ungulate herds and the restriction or banning of human hunting as a result.

Getting rid of the bulk of wolves was a very difficult process in days gone by. It required poison, aerial shooting, dynamiting of den sites. Those methods are off limits to us now. An annual "hunting season" for wolves will be a farce. The State has already accepted the need for area-specific extraordinary culling of problem wolves but we are stuck with them it looks like. The main Idaho wolf recovery manager has told me that he anticipates restrictions on some hunting of elk and possibly deer to accomodate wolves.

Yes, they do interbreed with dogs. Yes, they will obliterate our indigenous wolves if they haven't already.

This whole damn Federal government experiment has cost millions and is one more typical, shameful attempt by the Feds to ram down the throats of the States policies that were unacceptable to the States and would be unacceptable in more populated areas, areas, such as back East, where wolves once ran free also.

My sincere hope is that the State does gain management authority and then that strong measures are instituted to reduce the number of wolves. In addition, I sincerely hope that some disease may take its toll on the wolf packs. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some beautiful organism could be found living free in the "wilderness", some organism like parvovirus that could find itself populating the back country of our great state, living in beautiful concert and ecological harmony with the wolf.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (06/02/08 02:00 AM)


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96050 - 06/02/08 03:45 AM

Quote:

when people say "I believe wolves have a place in the wilderness" it demonstrates their complete lack of knowledge of wolf habits and the natural history of Idaho. This is a very common statement made by outsiders. Idaho is a land of animals and working people; towns, mining, hunting, farming, ranching, logging. What is "wilderness"? Usually, it means "somebody elses back yard".



No offence taken - All I meant was that I wouldn't want to see wolves extinct. But it seems that there were already wolves in Idaho before the introduction of the Canadian wolves. I take it that Canadian wolves are bigger and not the same as the native Idaho type? If so, it begs the questions - were there too few Idaho wolves, and why were a non-native strain introduced, rather than efforts made to increase the breeding success of the existing population?

On a different point though, and not wishing to upset any Idahoans, I didn't want to get into a debate about wilderness, but if there is no space for wilderness in a place like this
Quote:

Idaho is a big state, about 1/2 the size of Sweden with 1/7 the population with many different climates and terrains.



then I guess that sets a worrying precedent for conserving habitat for lions and other dangerous game in Africa. I guess you could argue that with villages everywhere, there is no wilderness there either


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EricD
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96057 - 06/02/08 04:31 AM

Quote:

In fact, most of us believe the main reason for the funding of wolf recovery lawsuits is to cause the destruction or dramatic reduction of ungulate herds and the restriction or banning of human hunting as a result.




I suspect the same thing goes for our wolf population here in Norway too. Which by the way a great number of people suspect are for the most part re-introduced. No matter if they are re-introduced or not, we didn't have wolves here for about 100 years, and the ones we now have are the same genetically as the ones found in Russia. Which are so numerous that they will never be endangered.

The Bunny Huggers will do whatever they can to stop hunting in the future, and have been smart enough to infiltrate all levels of government. Especially in those branches that deal with nature, in order to secretly further their own agenda. Protecting the "endangered" wolves is just another trick...

Erik


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96058 - 06/02/08 04:31 AM

Quote:

No offence taken - All I meant was that I wouldn't want to see wolves extinct. But it seems that there were already wolves in Idaho before the introduction of the Canadian wolves. I take it that Canadian wolves are bigger and not the same as the native Idaho type? If so, it begs the questions - were there too few Idaho wolves, and why were a non-native strain introduced, rather than efforts made to increase the breeding success of the existing population?

Jabali, great discussion, as you are hitting all the big points! In speaking to Id Fish and Game, I am told the species are the same. However, similar to introducing large Albertan whitetails to Florida, though, the size is much bigger. I really do not know why more efforts weren't put into encouragement of indigenous Idaho wolves. I am not suggesting that such an effort would be prferable, maybe not, as it may have resulted in draconian laws preventing hunting in order to build those packs. The point is; DO WE WANT WOLVES IN IDAHO AT ALL?? Idahoans were not asked.

On a different point though, and not wishing to upset any Idahoans, I didn't want to get into a debate about wilderness,

Indeed, though, the whole issue revolves around that very debate. The issue of wolf recovery and the debate about wilderness are intimitely intertwined.

but if there is no space for wilderness in a place like this
Quote:

Idaho is a big state, about 1/2 the size of Sweden with 1/7 the population with many different climates and terrains.



then I guess that sets a worrying precedent for conserving habitat for lions and other dangerous game in Africa. I guess you could argue that with villages everywhere, there is no wilderness there either




In fact, you are raising very good points. Personally, I do not believe there IS much wilderness left in the world and I stand firmly with the say, Indian farmer who defends his goats with a load of birdshot against the marauding tiger. If governments are going to impose the existence of predators on local populations then governments should make them profitable to local populations, and indeed, assuming the predator in-question doesn't already exist in the area, the locals should be asked if they want them at all. I probably differ with many on this forum who desire to see expanding "wilderness". I don't, because I simply do not believe it is possible in the absence of intense injustice.

Sorry, but except for VERY FEW places, wilderness {my definition; an area where human impact does not exist or is very difficult to detect} in the world does not exist. Many hunters want to go to Africa because they believe "Africa" is wilderness. Not by my definition. not even close, and I have travelled in a good chunk of it. VERY FEW places in Africa are anything like wilderness. There are SOME fairly vast regions, but by definition, you shouldn't be hunting there, right...? Or does everybody want "wilderness" limitations to be imposed on the other guy, while they themselves get to benefit by the impositions...?

I suspect that many urbanites would view where I live as total wilderness. That is the problem because it leads to the imposition of problematic land management schemes on us, "because nobody lives there...".

Our game department did a very fine job encouraging the growth of huntable species. Introduced Canadian Gray Wolves are a serious threat to that success.


--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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peter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96059 - 06/02/08 05:10 AM

actually 9,3 i disagree strongly with you on this subject, everybody should have the right to defend themselfs but the disease analogy you put forward is better if you replace wolf with human, nowhere has an animal done as much damage as human.

im sorry that you have these problems with wolfs, and i do think that it sounds like you are intitled to reduse that number quite a lot, but eridcate them because they dont fit into your world, maybe you could change your world a bit, so that there would be a place for the big predators as well. i find that a world without predators would be a poor world, but i could do with a lot less people.

call me a bunny hugger all you want, my hunt in sweden has a reduced quota of moose by 50% and we are very carefull when letting the dogs go in the forest. but that is what we have to do, to live with the big predators, yes it is a bitch that i have to be more careful when in the forest, but then i pack a gun when im in south central LA too.

life sucks every now and then, but we all have to be here in the end.

best regards

peter

wildlife dont have to go on the dinnerplate to have value.

Edited by peter (06/02/08 05:12 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: peter]
      #96069 - 06/02/08 05:55 AM

Guys- they became such a problem here in BC, that "The People" themselves had to take the law into their own hands with poisoning programs. The game branch had many environmentalists in their ranks, restricting the game branch preditor-control officer's work to the point their hands were literally tied.
; 10/80-laced grease balls spread on the ice of lakes, in the middle of fields and in 2 or 3 years, there's no further wolf ' problem' for another 15-20 years approx. Then, there has to be another 'program' done. We (BC) tried to eliminate the wolves back in the 50's with totally widespread indiscriminent poisoning programs. Stricknine, 10/80 and cyanide were used. Wolves are smart & learned - it took only a year or little more of this and the wolves wouldn't go anywhere near where a human had been - wouldn't touch a bait, only eating fresh killed and never going back to it for another meal. Their numbers were drastically reduced but they were smart - self preservation reigned - it was impossible to wipe them out - we found that - which is pretty much the reason there was still a small population of 'resident' Idaho wolves. You just can't wip;e them out, without the drives they had in Europe. That's different - our landscape won't allow that.
; Wolves are cool to see in the bush running free yeah, right - the flip side is 5 minutes or 5 days later they're pulling the uterus' out of your heffers, gutting your horses as they trt to run away, and coming right up onto your porch to eat your german shepherd or rottweiler. It's amazing what 5, 175 pound wolves can do - let alone a pack of 30. The odd one will push 200. 1st year pups will hit 80 pounds by Novemeber if fed on moose, caribou, deer or goats - probably faster on livestock due to the nice fat meat.
; As far as controlling them with hunting seasons - not going to happen.
: Just last fall at hunting camp, the 2 or 3 packs of wolves operating the area howled every night, all night, while chasing moose. 12 hunters over 3 weeks in the bush didn't so much as see one, let alone shoot any, yet they walked and ran through camp on at least one occasion. We did see 5 separate grizzlies, though. That was cool.
: BTW - if you do see a wolf, at any range, shoot it - anywhere - the others will kill it, THAT'S nature at it's best. This was the suggestion made to me by the guide I worked for back in the late 70's when the wolves ate most of the caribou in Spatzizi park, then travelled down the Stakine and then Skeena drainages to spread out in the populated Bulkley Valley, 150 miles South, to 150 miles West and 150 miles East along the river system. There, as their numbers exploaded due to the quantity and variety of game and livestock including horses, cattle, sheep and dogs, they reduced the ungulate population to almost zilch, while their numbers kept multiplying on a diet of livestock.
; I've been through all that once, and it's happening again today.
; Just WHAT was the Idaho Government thinking? When I heard of that maneuver, I thought - Bloody Hell!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AzGuy
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #96087 - 06/02/08 11:01 AM

Guess I just don't understand the "problem"

Wolves: they taste great and their hides tan up beautifully!!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: AzGuy]
      #96089 - 06/02/08 11:35 AM

Peter: Your views are somewhat popular with various people, to be sure. Of course, in your case you travel to someone else's country to find territory where there are large predators. This might be an enjoyable experience for you, but it is not one that gives me thrills or one I find even interesting. I live among large predators every day of my life. They hold no thrill for me.

You must understand, irradication is not going to happen. Wolves are here to stay. Ditto cougar, black and grizzly bear and coyote. We have them all. And all are competing for the same food source along with me and other fellow hunters. My own opinion is that I desire the bare minimum of them all. Maybe not total irradication {though in the case of wolves in Idaho that would be a goal I would support if such a policy became possible, which it isn't}.

As for danger to humans, I doubt they will be much, though in larger densities they like cougar will take a little child from time to time I suppose. For those who feel there are already too many people around this might not be a big deal, and certainly not a reason to dramatically control wolf numbers. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that those who feel human numbers should be chopped back don't include themselves in the group that should get chopped! A curiousity at the least!

Daryl, the State of Idaho did not want wolves. Wolves were forced on the State by the Federal government. Since wolves are listed as endangered, the Federal government maintains management rights exclusively. IF they are delisted, the State will manage them {having to maintain certain quota's of course}. Under the State plan, they would gain "Big Game" status {same as black bear and cougar} and could be hunted. This seems the best possibility, as undesireable as it is. The State game biologists I have spoken to on this subject are not too happy with being stuck in the middle. Right now, wolves are seriously impacting the herds. The State can do almost nothing about it. And remember, the State biologists take the heat for decreased game populations in spite of the fact that they cannot at present do anything to stop the damage. I spoke to the head game biologist for Idaho today on the phone. He readily admits that it will take some years to learn HOW to manage wolf populations, that is, keeping them at numbers low enough to minimize impact on game animals, while making sure not to allow wolf numbers to drop below Federal requirements. If that were to happen, wolves would again be relisted, control taken away from the State, and hunting of wolves banned. Our State game department is in a very tough position. At any rate, he said the sooner we get control in the hands of the State, the sooner they can develop the skills and plans to manage wolves effectively.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96132 - 06/02/08 11:17 PM

Now I understand why BC guides always want you to have a wolf tag on hand...... although they generally say that chances are slim of actually filling it

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96141 - 07/02/08 01:37 AM

Quote:

Now I understand why BC guides always want you to have a wolf tag on hand...... although they generally say that chances are slim of actually filling it




Spot on.

I spoke to the head wildlife biologist for the State yesterday. We discussed management options and this very topic came up, that is, wolves are VERY difficult to hunt in heavily timbered mountains, and at present the State does not truly know what method or combination of methods {that are politically acceptable to the population at-large...} will be effective at reducing wolf numbers to the required number. Remember, TOO great a number killed will result in relisting which will place a regulatory stop to all hunting, take the control of wolves away from the State and put the Feds back in control.

YES, this is a legal, political and biological mess. The State didn't want them in the first place, and neither do most hunters.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96143 - 07/02/08 02:18 AM

What a mess - I don't see any easy solutions, but if I was a rancher with a definite 'problems', I'd be putting out grease balls in the interestes of protecting my own property.
; Jabil - chances of seeing one are slim - especially in tightly bushed ares - but, we do a lot of spotting across draws before planning stalks & these sometimes pay off with a pack. You rarely see just one - but many at a time.
: While bear hunting from stands over a salmon river, we managed 4 wolves in 2 days.
; Guides are allowed 3 each, btw. That's 3 in hand, runnoffs that are subsequently killed by the pack don't count against a licence. A bird-inhand and 2 in the bush still only counts as 1.

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96144 - 07/02/08 02:23 AM

Not specifically with regards to Idaho but a lot of the anti wolf attitude seems to me to be a competitive thing. Wolves eat game - deer, moose - and also domestic livestock.

Reduce the availability or numbers for man, whether game or livestock.

Wolves on appearance as predators are no different to lion, leopard, tiger etc in their effect on game and human interaction. Except a lion, tiger or leopard is more likely to also kill humans.

I still think the world is lesser if there were not populations, indeed huntable populations of all these predators.

***

With regards to the Indian and tiger example given above, but what if as is mostly likely the man killing a tiger in defence or in defence of his cow, is actually encroaching on a national park? ie illegal grazing in a small area of what was originally habitat for the tiger?

Also the historic decimation of tigers in the wild was not by shotgun or rifle, but more by poisoned bait or carcases. Similar to what is described for the treatment of wolves.

Australia's predator is the wild dingo. Dingos do not have the same capacity for killing as a wolf. However among a sheep flock they can kill dramatic numbers for no sustenance reasons. So as a result in more settled areas they are eliminated and generally kept North of the Dog Fence in areas of cattle stations. ie keeping at risk domestic stock separate from their range.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: NitroX]
      #96149 - 07/02/08 03:02 AM

Quote:

Not specifically with regards to Idaho but a lot of the anti wolf attitude seems to me to be a competitive thing. Wolves eat game - deer, moose - and also domestic livestock.

Right on. Exactly. Current generations seem to be embarrassed about that to some degree and some people, hunters even, seem to resist the inclination to COMPETE with the wolf or even that they are rightfully entitled to do so. I'm not embarrassed about wanting wolves to lose. First, I'm glad my forefathers shot, poisoned and dynamited every wolf they did and as regards wolves, the hunting opportunities of Western Europe would be a far different thing if wolves were around today. The benefits of wolf persecution are widespread. It is a great success story!! Yes, they are in my opinion a disease to be stamped out or at the very least held to a very low minimum, sort of like small pox kept in a lab for further study...

Reduce the availability or numbers for man, whether game or livestock.

Wolves on appearance as predators are no different to lion, leopard, tiger etc in their effect on game and human interaction. Except a lion, tiger or leopard is more likely to also kill humans.

One very significant difference involves weather. We in the West not only have predators taking game each year, but every year winter takes its toll and cyclically it is devastating to our game herds. For example, in 1996, Idaho suffered a devastating winter. In the Lolo area, herds have not yet recovered, and this year we are experiencing another very serious winter. A State study demonstrated the severe impact of wolves on elk populations struggling to recover from the '96 winter in the Lolo. I discussed this with the biologist yesterday and he agreed; this year with the game concentrated in the low country and suffering limited brouse and hindered by deep snow, they are being slaughtered en masse by predators. I might add we are seeing evidence of this just off my ground at the river.

Hard winters Africa does not see, though drought in Africa and Australia might be a similar climatic factor to be compared. We see a certain % of healthy, strong game animals killed every winter by winter alone. And our game numbers overall are nothing like the densities existing in most game country of sub-Saharan Africa in the first place. Nitro, you are right: We hunters are competing with predators for the game and I for one, in concert with many who have gone before me, sincerely hope I win and they lose.


I still think the world is lesser if there were not populations, indeed huntable populations of all these predators.

As mentioned, irradication is not the issue, though as also mentioned, I believe we were far better off when we had a very small number of wolves in Idaho. One thing that many on a Forum of this type may not understand is the ACTUAL financial benefit large game have in poverty-stricken areas like mine and many others throughout the West and indeed in Africa. MANY people count on an elk and deer for food. Rich guys who want to hunt this or that game animal in places far from home are to be commended for paying the $ to do so, but they should never forget that many people actually utilize the game for direct and needed sustenance. I personally do not need an elk's weight in meat each year. I make enough money that I can afford not to shoot one. But many hard working local people DO rely on elk and deer, and I make no apologies for standing 100% with them in my desire to see them succeed and wolves fail.

***

With regards to the Indian and tiger example given above, but what if as is mostly likely the man killing a tiger in defence or in defence of his cow, is actually encroaching on a national park? ie illegal grazing in a small area of what was originally habitat for the tiger?

I am not saying government doesn't have a responsibility to manage game and or predators. And certainly in India with 1,100,000,000 people the issue is of crisis proportions. But is there anyone among us that would let our own children starve in order to "save a tiger"? I wouldn't even let them skip breakfast.

Beyond that, if the existence of tigers is so all-fired important to the world, then let the world provide a sustainable income to the people who are competing with them.


Also the historic decimation of tigers in the wild was not by shotgun or rifle, but more by poisoned bait or carcases. Similar to what is described for the treatment of wolves.

Correct again, at least regarding wolves. I submit to your knowledge of tiger decimation. Hunting of large predators is as Daryl notes, very difficult with a gun. I saw one wolf on my ranch last fall {heard many during elk season. Our local herd was driven off by them. I never got a shot at elk last fall.} Anyway, the wolf was about 500 yards away and running. I'm not as good a shot as some others and this would have been beyond my ability had I took a whack at it... My wife saw one in August '07 about 200 yards from our house. It was on the railroad tracks standing, watching my sheep and horses. She didn't have a gun and it took off when it saw her move for the house. I saw another one in 2000 while grouse hunting, this time very close to me. It was chasing a deer and I only had a load of #6's in my Beretta had I the inclination to slow it down.




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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96158 - 07/02/08 06:32 AM

NitroX - good points - however, in regards to classing them with tigers or lions, we are forgetting the way wolves breed.
: In a single pack, given normal fight for food situation, only the prominent male and female breed. She brow-beats the other females into not coming into heat.
: When food is plenty, they all kick into estrust and the other male and females breed and break off to make their own packs. With no predation against themselves except by man, they have no controls placed upon them, and each female giving birth to 3 ro 6 pups, which breed the next year, makes for a population explosion amongst them.
; With man to help feed them, their numbers don't follow the normal peaks and valleys of population that follows game. Once introduced where man lives, they generaly decimate the game populations, they subsist on livestock while still-yet dwindling the game populations.
; Until there is a huge poinsoning program, their numbers don't take a kicking from normal starve-offs.
; Warm weather in the late winter, then freezing makes for very difficult times for the elk, moose and deer. Being small footed in relation to their weight, they still sink to their bellies in the snow, while the wolves run on top. The bad weather which already weakens the ungulates, coupled with being restricted in movement by snow, the wolves will kill off most of a small herd in one go, when food is plentiful. Under those circumstances, it only takes 1 or 2 wolves to pull down a huge bull or buck, which doesn't have antlers at that time for protection, nay, in the snow, wouldn't be able to protect himself even if he did.
; I don't quite see them as vermin to be eradicated (almost impossible anyway), like most ranchers do, but one should sometime put oneself in their shoes. How would you like to lose your entire income for the following year before you even start working for it (you still have to work that year), just so some bunny hugger in LA or New York can dream of wolves howling in the night in Idaho.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #96211 - 07/02/08 10:52 PM

Quote:

I don't quite see them as vermin to be eradicated (almost impossible anyway), like most ranchers do, but one should sometime put oneself in their shoes. How would you like to lose your entire income for the following year before you even start working for it (you still have to work that year), just so some bunny hugger in LA or New York can dream of wolves howling in the night in Idaho.



Presumably there is compensation, though? Therefore the income loss should be at least mitigated. If the compensation is not high enough, then that is a political issue to be addressed. That is not to suggest that it is somehow acceptable just becasue there may be compensation available - just asking the question to get more of an idea of the whole picture.


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96218 - 08/02/08 12:44 AM

Jabali:

As usual, you are asking the right questions and I appreciate your interest in the broader scope of the problem!

Various compensation measures have been implemented. Theoretically, if wolves kill livestock the owner is compensated for their loss. This of course sounds great to many outsiders who "just want to save the wolves", sounds "just" and makes them feel good. What are those Idaho redneck hillbillies whining about anyway? Case closed, book shut. Those who don't want wolves are bad. Now let's go buy another pair of shoes from Gucci's, sip a latte and figure out how we can shut down all those evil coal-fired power plants {in the USA, not China of course..}.

But in your question you hint that there is something more and you are right. You imply you smell complexity that might escape the unwary. You are right. {Are you a Barrister? }

First, loss of a producing cow, sheep or horse can not just be made up for in a few dollars. Genetics, training time {horses} etc can be of immense value and while most stockmen know that merely living in Idaho means there may be more losses to be incurred than say living in Ohio, that itself begs the question why a man down is now allowed to be kicked.

The other element of this problem is "proving it". We are drowning in coyotes and other predators exist, too. It is not easy to prove that wolves made the kill, and without that proof, no compensation. Even if a steer or range cow WAS killed by wolves, between the time of the attack and the time of discovery, all tracks and evidence of the killers may be {frequently is} obliterated by the combined efforts of crows and coyotes. Then there are the "indirect" costs. What if a $25,000 horse is chased across a pasture, runs through a fence and must be put down? Who pays? Who is going to prove it was wolves that chased it thru the fence?

A few years ago, two steers owned by by neighbor were chased out of their pasture and up the mountain by a pack of wolves...or was it huge stray dogs...and these two went wild, completely berserk, defying all attempts to round them up, costing many days of effort and living like spooked elk until the owner {an older fellow whose legs won't stand that mountain anymore} gave me and my son the green light to hunt them. We did, difficult in itself and killed one. Prematurely for the plans of the owner of course, but what were his options? Now, how does he prove it was wolves that did it?

The state knows from the number of proven wolf attacks that these animals, as Daryl points out make every effort they can to kill livestock in the absence of game {or sometimes just because it is easier}. But proving each and every kill is very difficult indeed.

You are right to ask the questions you do. They are totally legitimate. I wish everybody who had attractions to the concept of wolf recovery asked the same questions. It IS a tough issue.

My question for those who desire to have wolves reintroduced to Idaho is this; Why stop at Idaho? Why not bring them back to their entire worldwide range wherever it was they existed? Why not? Because common sense precludes it. Wolves are an unmitigated menace and their numbers should be small, small indeed. Like small pox in a laboratory. Kept so their genetic material may be investigated and used for research and that is about it.

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96231 - 08/02/08 02:39 AM

Well put, 9.3. I feel your pain - happened here, as I mentioned.
: 'Proof' or lack there-of is the tool of the anti. So often is is impossible to prove wolves did kill the livestock, run them off or whatever. It got to the point here, where the predetor control officer was told he could only shoot those wolves which were actively chasing livestock with 'intent' to kill them & had to be able to prove that with fact. Just because there were wolves in a field with the livestock which were madly running to and fro, didn't mean those were the wolves that killed livestock in that very same field yesterday.
; What brought this to a head and our attention, was the control officer shot a several wolves from a chopper which were in a field with horses & almsot lost his job due to having no proof they'd killed one already as he didn't SEE them do it. The biologist said they may have been different wolves than those which killed the mare. That is what the rancher is up against.
; This ridiculousness is why 'the people' took the law into their own hands and did the job themselves.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #96239 - 08/02/08 03:54 AM

Per this subject-- got this emailed to me yesterday by SCI..

Antis File Lawsuit to Stop Wolf Management

Defenders of Wildlife, HSUS, Center for Biodiversity and other anti-hunting groups, have filed suit in Federal Court in Montana to invalidate a rule designed to give the states of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming greater management authority over "endangered" wolves that are having an "unacceptable impact" on wild ungulate populations. The rule, that is set to go into effect on February 27, 2008, also deals with the lethal take of wolves that attack livestock, pets and hunting dogs. Last year, SCI filed comments in support of the proposed rule to give the three states the management tools necessary to control the predator species and to reduce the detrimental impact wolves are having on elk and other prey species. The final rule was published in the Federal Register on January 28, 2008. At this time, SCI is considering whether to ask the court to allow SCI to participate to help defend the FWS's decision. We will keep you posted.




Ripp

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Ripp]
      #96269 - 08/02/08 10:15 AM

That's really something. Civilians being able to stop the Game Branch from doing it's job.
: Glad I live in Canada. That would be another reason.
; I suppose the ranchers will have to look after their own problems.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #96286 - 08/02/08 01:21 PM

Yes, Daryl, it's nuts!

Can anyone help me post a short article on this subject published just yesterday in my local newspaper? I do not know how to post it, but I can email to a more knowledgeable fellow. I tried emailing NitroX but his "quota" is full!

Help!

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Ripp
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96290 - 08/02/08 01:34 PM

email it to my personal email address --I can take it from there..
Ripp

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ArnoldB
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Ripp]
      #97414 - 24/02/08 06:24 AM

This might be of interest to you guys there.
Quote:


Grey wolf 'no longer endangered'


Grey wolves in the Northern Rockies of the United States have been removed from the endangered species list, the US Department of the Interior has said.


The move follows efforts over the last 13 years to protect the animals and allow their population to grow.

There are now an estimated 1,500 grey wolves in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.

They became a protected species in the US after they were nearly hunted to extinction. The removal of protection means they can be hunted again.

Environmental groups have said they will sue the federal government to keep the animal listed.

"The wolf population is doing great. The ESA [Endangered Species Act] worked. We've got a lot of wolves in a lot of places," Ed Bangs, wolf recovery co-ordinator for the US Fish and Wildlife Service, said before the announcement.

Last year, the population of grey wolves in the western Great Lakes area was removed from the endangered species list.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7257465.stm


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: ArnoldB]
      #97419 - 24/02/08 06:40 AM

Will comment in 31 Days...

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #97423 - 24/02/08 07:06 AM

Quote:

Guides are allowed 3 each, btw. That's 3 in hand, runnoffs that are subsequently killed by the pack don't count against a licence. A bird-inhand and 2 in the bush still only counts as 1.



Guess the ideal wolf calibre is a 22LR then
only a joke


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #97426 - 24/02/08 07:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Guides are allowed 3 each, btw. That's 3 in hand, runnoffs that are subsequently killed by the pack don't count against a licence. A bird-inhand and 2 in the bush still only counts as 1.



Guess the ideal wolf calibre is a 22LR then
only a joke






Actually, you may be right.

If Hornady brought back the 220 grain .308 caliber RNFMJ, and a similar bullet in other calibers, such bullets might be used against wolves. Like the early military loads, such bullets penetrate deeply without causing much peripheral hydraulic effect unless impact is at near muzzle velocity.

Such bullets would pass cleanly thru a wolf's guts, allowing the animal the ability to cover lots of ground before peritonitis laid it down for good.

What a crying shame that would be.

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Ripp
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97568 - 25/02/08 04:11 AM

Per my post on another thread--just last week it was released publically that over 50,000 head of livestock have gone the way of predators in the past year in Montana..

Ripp

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szihn
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Ripp]
      #97831 - 28/02/08 10:02 AM

S.S.S.
You can even omit the 2nd S. if you use a bullet that will always go through, and you never even go look.............

The 3rd S is the really important one.


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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: szihn]
      #97851 - 28/02/08 01:09 PM

My instructions from the outfitter, was " shoot them all, doesn't matter where". This was just after they'd decimated the caribou population in Spatzizi Park and were moving down the main river to the populated areas of the Bulkely Valley. They were cleaning the goats, caribou and moose from that valley on their way.

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Daryl


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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #98005 - 01/03/08 03:39 AM

we are pissed because they are doing what god intended,go back in history a short period i grew up trapping how many trappers do you know now,they were the ones who usually dealt with the predators.we watched them slip into history we as sportsman did not back them no it is not "nice "to use a leg trap.and outfitters they want 4-6000$ TO HUNT THE WOLF.if they are that big a problem donate hunts to conservation groups like sci,rmef ect and cover your cost and let them be hunted fairly,an operator that wants to wipe out a species ir just to shoot it to let it run off and die well i guess your love of the job is gone and should seek a job that will make you happier,will they kill cattle yes,are they compensated i think so.are they using blm lands yes,thats wild country,some argue that the cattle are taking what the deer and elk should be getting.our sport is in enough trouble, i always said a hunter is his own worst enemy.look what happened to mountain lion hunting in california,look whats happening to bear hunting,piece by piece we are loosing.look for an alternate way to deal with or express your problem

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Dphariss
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #98271 - 04/03/08 05:24 AM

I live in South Central Montana. The Wolves are everywhere, far out onto the prairies and far from the "Wilderness". I don't think the wolves have ate 50000 head of livestock but combined with the coyote this might be close.
They have decimated the the elk in Yellowstone (Park Service tells us its the bears). Massive reduction in the north herd. They have drastically changed elk hunting outside the park by disturbing the habits of game animals.
Wolves in the environment make it impossible to manage wildlife. It is estimated that they kill 10000 moose in AK every year that they do not even bite or eat. The moose are chased from their chosen winter range and winter kill.
Since the wolves we now see road killed elk in the Yellowstone River Valley as far down as Columbus (that I have personally seen) something previously unknown to me since moving here in the mid-1970s
Wolfs kill stuff. They even kill animals they do not eat. I believe the bears in Yellowstone are doing better because they are eating wolf kills. The Gbears have spread out too and places I used to hunt that were pretty much Gbear free now have this pest. Some of which are "problem" bears. People who live in places where they have such things know what this means. It means it should be shot on sight. But now they are radio collared so its risky unless they actively try to eat you.

The fun part is for years the experts told us that wolves did not eat people. All "anecdotal" historical evidence to the contrary not withstanding. But then they killed and ate a man in Canada a year or so ago. OOPS. Maybe Daniel Boone, various settlers and a host of American Natives were right after all...

My wife and I used to help and elderly lady with her chores, goats, chickens and sheep. She live her entire live in the west and her father had been a "wolfer". When the introduction started I asked Geraldine what she thought of it. She looked and me and said "Wait till peoples kids start disappearing". All she said. She was not known to ramble on much anyway. Born in a tent in Oklahoma circa 1900-1911.
I saw this as an anti-hunting move from the start, the setting up of the "Wilderness areas" was a similar move to force people out of their own national forest and it was worked pretty well.
There are a LOT of delusional types who feel that the wolf eating something alive is somehow better than my shooting something and having it die in seconds so I can eat it. They seem to think that I was dropped here from some other planet and should be prevented from "contaminating" wild areas by my presence.
Unfortunately the world is more delusional that sane, especially when it comes to personal freedom or self-sufficiency. Unlike our poster from the UK I never have to buy meat. My rifle furnishes more that I can eat and I give the excess to my kids or the food bank. Thus the wolf reintroduction impacts more than the livestock grower. It destroys game management. It could eventually force me to buy beef. It will result in less hunting opportunities which I believe was at least part of reason they introduced the pests in the first place.
The more radical "sects" of the environmental movement want the Rocky Mountain Wilderness and Parks all "linked" for free travel of the furry woodland creatures. They was corridors from where I live to the Black Hills of South Dakota. Never mind the private land owner and peoples houses.
You think this is "conspiracy, black helicopter, wacko" ranting you have not been paying attention. The Nat Geo channel just ran a show (from its description) on the idea of tying all the Rocky Mountain Parks together from far north to south.
I get a little "put out" since I happen to live in a proposed "wildlife corridor".

This is all coming to the east as well. So watch for wolves in PA and VA. If you have the opportunity you better start fighting it now.

Dan


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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Dphariss]
      #98289 - 04/03/08 08:58 AM

Dphariss:

Thank you for posting. I could not agree with you more, and with every word to-boot.

Introducing wolves to Idaho, Montana and Wyoming is no different than would be the purposeful introduction of rats and stray dogs to New York City, London, San Francisco, LA, Frankfurt, Copenhagen or any other city. I suspect rats and stray dogs could fend for themselves like wolves out here and if somebody's critter or kid gets in the way a bit of "compensation" could be tossed their direction for their trouble.

Like you, we eat meat every day and raise or shoot every bit of it except for special bits for holidays. It is part of our culture and many people live this very way and we take offense at the notion that wolves are somehow "good" for Idaho.

I just spoke to an Idaho Fish and Game Law Enforcement Officer last week. He made the point that SCIENCE was the only thing the Feds looked at when they introduced these vermin, as in "can it be done?"

He said they never took into consideration SOCIETY and the people who after introduction would then have to deal with them. Most Id F&G officers hate the introduction of wolves for all the trouble it has brought and the threat it represents to their jobs and security of future hunting opportunity and culture in this state.

Yes, Dphariss, it is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy hunting and the culture of hunting that exists here. It is promoted by those who have been deluded into thinking that wolves are in some way better than a dose of small pox or rinderpest or West Nile Virus spread to the barnyard or a pack of rats dumped in the attic or a pack of stray dogs dumped in the street.

Save the Wolves!

Save the Rats!

There's not one bit of difference between the two.

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98307 - 04/03/08 03:48 PM

OVERKILL NO, BUT RENEWABLE RESOURSE YES,IM SURE OUR GATORS HERE HAVE KILLED THIER FAIR SHARE OF HUMANS AND STOCK BUT WE DONT KILL THEM ALL,BUT SOME,I BELIEVE NOT ENOUGH,THE COUNTY I LIVE IN HAS THE DISTINCTION OF SHARK BITE CAPITAL OF THE US MAYBE THE WORLD.YET WE DONT NET OUR BEACHES.MAYBE IN MY LIFE TIME I WILL AGAIN SEE A GRIZZLY HUNT IN MONTANA OR A WESTERN WOLF HUNT.HELL THE COYOTE HAS SPREAD ALL OVER THE US AND NOW THE WILD BOAR IS DOING THE SAME.LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE JUST GIVES US MORE CHOICES TO HUNT.I DO NOT HUNT TO WIPE OUT A SPECIES.ALL OF US FILL A SPOT IN THE CIRCLE OF LIFE .BEES KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN WOLVES DO.DEER CAUSE MORE MONEY DAMAGE THAN WOLVES DO.DO WE WIPE THEM OFF THE PLANET TO.IF WE LOST ANYONE OF THESES CREATURES IT WILL IMPACT SOME HOW.WE AS HUMANS ARE DUE FOR A HERD THINNING,LIKE THE BLACK PLAGUE,POLIO,THE FLU PANDEMIC IN THE 20'S,THE AVAIN FLU THEY FEAR SO MUCH NOW.WHEN ANY SPECIES GETS TO BIG FOR ITS ENVIORMENT SOMETHING WILL AND OFTEN DOES HAPPEN.30 YEARS AGO WAS ANYONE CONCERNED ABOUT AIDS.WE MAY BE THE ULTIMATE PREDATOR BUT THINGS AS SMALL AS A VIRUS WILL CULL US DOWN TO.I SAY PUT SOME WOLVES HERE IN THE EAST,DEER ARE AT THIER PEAK LETS SEE IF THEY CAN SURVIVE HERE,WE HAVE MOVED THE ELK PAST THE BIG MUDDIE,MIGHT BE FUN.THE FLORIDA WOLF WONDER IF IT WILL EAT TOURISTS........

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #98345 - 05/03/08 01:21 AM

Bwananelson, your response is instructive and sums up the not-so-rare feelings of some sportsmen. There are those who see hunting as a game, as a sport, from the perspective of an outsider who thinks it is neat to see and take strange animals, or pretty animals or...oooooh...DANGEROUS animals.

An ancient line of division exists between the culture of local hunting for meat as described by Dphariss and I and tourist hunting by outsiders who come in to see the sights and bring back something to hang on their wall. There is a bit of blending of the two as well, in that some local hunters do indeed hunt for trophies as well as meat.

Ultimately it is indeed a choice of models, a choice of paradigms. What are the paradigms were are faced with and which do we want?

The model that replaces humans with wolves? Sorry, but we cannot have both unless wolf numbers are rigourously controlled. The Idaho Fish and Game Department fears declining hunter numbers and for good reason. There is not, in the West, "enough to go around".

Many so-called environmentalists fall in your camp, the camp that espouses the notion of the "circle of life", an ephemoral concept at best that means whatever the speaker wants it to mean. Usually in this context it means the establishment of laws or rules that limit hunting in the name of taking away the predator position from people and giving it to some animal like the wolf.

You don't live here so it is difficult for you to get a feel for what it is like to have such oppressive laws dumped on top of you.

How's this for a compromise??

I admit that the Federal government {theoretically...} represents all US citizens and the vast Federal grounds are open to use by all Americans, regardless of where those lands exist. Since this is in fact true, my feeling is that if the Federal government is so in love with wolves, and if Back East {and other non-local} interests are so enamored with them, then at the very least allow a compromise that limits their protection to Federal ground, i.e. the ground that all Americans possess an interest in.

Thus, any wolf that steps off Federal ground could be legally shot, poisoned, dynamited, trapped or otherwise culled at the discretion of the property owner. THAT might be a just and culturally sensitive method of managing introduced species. Right now the rights of property owners are ignored and violated at every step of this discussion.

But I doubt such a common sense compromise will ever exist.

This issue isn't about wolves, it is about the destruction of traditions and philosophies of game management as very successfully implemented by our state Fish and Game Departments. They have been wildly successful in growing elk and deer herds in the West and deer in the East. It is, ultimately, about the destruction of hunting and the rights of property owners just as Dphariss says.

I am well aware of the mass explosion of deer numbers in the South and East. I grew up in New Jersey {where deer bag limits are higher than in Idaho}, in Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky and Florida as well as here in Idaho, and in Washington state. I have hunted in these states and in Alabama and have family throughout the South.

What you need to limit the numbers of deer is not wolves, but a positive, growing culture of hunting in your states, a culture that adapts itself to the wonderful deer resource, adopts techniques and methods of hunting applicable to the local settings and results in the provision of food which itself is a tremendously important symbol and culturally relevant bond between hunters and the ground and the animals they both support. Such ties promote future trans-generational development of the hunting culture. Your states need a growing, educated, committed hunter class, not wolves.

What you promote with this nonsensical dumping of the rat-wolf in the West is the destruction of the hunting culture and is an oppression that needs to be stopped. You may not see it where you are, but where the resources are much more limited, the picture is quite clear indeed.

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (05/03/08 01:31 AM)


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98356 - 05/03/08 02:26 AM

we have 1.5 million alligators in this state and dole out a total of about 4000 permits[1 permit=2 alligators]we as hunters almost exterminated the alligator not long ago,same with the elk,bison,antelope,turkey.if we go unchecked we tend to over do it.you speak of the destruction of hunting,here in florida you are almost out of luck unless you join a leased club,from1000 to 10,000 a year.you have a multitude of blm and national forest.you live in a dream destination for what most americans consider a once in a life time hunt,i have hunted wyoming numerous times for elk those days are gone the nearly 1000 special tag,4-6000 guide fee,shipping of meat,i have two sons one was able to join me on an elk hunt the other one is of age but we are priced out,,,he will never see the windriver range,smell the sage.because like it or not we out of staters fund your game dept.what is the cost of your elk tag compared to an out of stater,and most of the land is classed as federal not state.that means we all pitch in.lets just vote out the game departments and go back to the way we were.why should anyone tell me when and where i can hunt no matter whose land its on it does not belong to the land owner.no more draws no more seasons if i need or want meat i should be able to get some also that means i can gen on a plane fly to a western state of my choice find what i want and take it.oh trust me it is here also,if you are not rich you wont hunt,seems like its true history repeats itself only royalty was privilaged to hunt.thats what i see where i am at.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #98358 - 05/03/08 03:08 AM

Quote:

we have 1.5 million alligators in this state

Excellent point. If you in Florida want to be overun by gators, all the power to you. You are complaining to the wrong fellow. We do not want the same thing happening here with wolves.

But the question is begged; do gator numbers promote hunting? Do gator numbers threaten other hunting opportunities? If they expand and promote hunting and do not threaten other hunting opportunities then I say you have a great resource. Use it and manage it. Such is NOT the case with wolves in Idaho.


you speak of the destruction of hunting,

I beg to disagree. As has been flatly agreed with by several wildlife managers I have spoken to here, I am speaking about the protection of hunting as a culture, not the restricted Royal Right you seem to favor or don't favor but are being deluded into promoting. The hunting culture I seek to protect is the culture that can be sustained and perpetuated generation after generation. Wolf introduction threatens that culture.

because like it or not we out of staters fund your game dept.what is the cost of your elk tag compared to an out of stater,and most of the land is classed as federal not state.

It is true to say that you out of staters provide substantial funds to our Game Department. And those funds are seriously threatened by wolf introduction. I have been speaking to several IF&G Dept officers recently about this very topic, and their very real concern is that they know that wolf numbers are devastating several elk herds right now, and reduced elk means reduced out of state hunters and thus, reduced revenue to the Department. Yes, out of state hunters do in fact contribute substantial funding to the Department, and that funding will drift away as elk hunting opportunity also diminishes, a diminishment everyone agrees will occur as a result of wolf introduction. Remember one thing, though I myself favor the irradication of wolves in Idaho, THAT will not occur under the current plan the state is trying to get passed in the face of resistance by freak environmental groups. It is possible that we can live with the Federal quota of 30 breeding pairs, but the IF&G knows they must manage to numbers in excess of that in order not to trip the ES Act and thus relisting of wolves. Instead of merely letting IF&G manage the wolves, the political field is muddy, complicated and full of mischief from wolf lovers from sea to shining sea.

Also as regards the funding issue, the IF&G department knows that out of state wolf tags sold will never replace the value of the multiples of elk tags they threaten and will in fact reduce the purchase of. Funding IS an issue, and wolves will COST the Game Department dearly, and do nothing to replace the cost they incur.

Compensation funds for domestic stock losses are already severely limited. Remember, we already HAVE coyotes, cougar and bear. There is a state fund the IF&G manages. Wolves will contribute heavily to the syphoning of dollars from that fund while in no way replacing those funds with tags sold. Wolf introduction is bad from stem to stern. And it is just as preposterous for hunters to support the notion that wolves will bring in "photography tourists" who will inject dollars to the state. In the first place, wolves are difficult to find to see. Tourists and tour guides will figure that out after a time. Secondly, these tourists, if they do indeed show up, will not provide funds to the Game Department at all.

You speak of the absolute truth about land ownership in a general sense. That is precisely why my compromise above is not meant to be a rhetorical statement, but rather a workable and realistic approach.

I am full of the knowledge that my personal desire {irradication of wolves in Idaho} is not going to happen. At the philosophical level I want them gone. At the political level I am well aware that the sooner we get them out of the hands of the Feds and into the management hands of IF&G the better.


lets just vote out the game departments and go back to the way we were.

I'm beginning to think you may be merely a troll on this issue.

why should anyone tell me when and where i can hunt no matter whose land its on it does not belong to the land owner.

Why? Because the last time I checked, at least some property rights still existed in this country. I think you speak rhetorically or in jest here.




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Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (05/03/08 03:24 AM)


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98387 - 05/03/08 09:29 AM

well you have valid points aswell as do i. and yes i know how it feels.in my state alone i have seen the loss of bear season due to politics not ecology.i have seen whole management areas lost to the florida panther,more alligators are killed by state employees than hunters and yes they do kill cattle dogs other pets and humans.the feds have a heavy hand here also.but i wont risk a felony to kill an animal.with csi as it is something will be left behind to implicate some one.but the chasing away of out of state hunters started before the wolf issue.some of the western states wanted to keep all out of staters out.the regular joe cant take his son on an elk hunt now.you are very educated if you are able to have ample land in the west and i dont believe you would risk a felony time in jail and loss of what you have for an animal.what ever the wolf did in your area i guess it will test your limits.here in florida you kill a gator illegally and get caught its a felony they are protected the same as the wolf its a year in prison and loss of firearms for life,to big a chance for me.you are a big asset to these forums and have alot to offer us youngsters
we are but one and cant change a thing what the feds do.they will do as they wish[what the money tells them to do],dont feel isolated they do us here the same so yes i know how you feel.i just wont risk what you are willing to risk.and yes i feel i have been chased out of the west also due to cost, went to canada and now to africa.you cant beat the feds,ruby ridge,waco,just to name a few they ring a bell.i will leave this alone to many right views to argue.we all have our wind mills to fight.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #98391 - 05/03/08 10:24 AM

Quote:

what ever the wolf did in your area i guess it will test your limits.here in florida you kill a gator illegally and get caught its a felony they are protected the same as the wolf its a year in prison and loss of firearms for life,to big a chance for me.




You bring up an excellent issue not addressed before.

I am not promoting the illegal shooting of wolves. I myself would not illegally shoot one for just the reasons you cite. The punishements for doing so are ridiculous in the extreme. Being convicted of shooting a wolf is a personal catastrophe as has been demonstrated a few times by those who have done so and gotten caught. It is not worth it.

The punishment does not match the crime {rather, the virtue...} in this situation.

Just a year ago or so the law was changed to allow the killing of wolves in defense of life and livestock, but a fellow better be bleeding from an artery if he wants to go that route.

On one hand, I wish our own state politicians had taken a stronger stance against the Federal government when the introductions started back in '96. On the other hand, Wyoming did take a firmer stance and it can be said to have lengthened the delisting process { and thus prevented hunting of wolves} since the "recovery" area includes Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. For some time, the wolf management plan of one state impacted all.

Making an attempt to be somewhat optimistic, I feel the only possible solution under current oppression is for the state to manage wolves. Their draft plan seeks to grant the wolf Big Game animal status just like Black Bear and Mountain Lion. IF&G admits it will take time and there will be mistakes along the way, but they are confident they can establish a plan to successfully manage wolves at Federally imposed quota limits. I hope so.

Wolf "recovery" is expensive and it costs hunting opportunity. But if the IF&G plan serves no purpose other than to get the Federal government off the backs of Idahoans, it will accomplish at least one good thing. I do believe the state draft plan just might preserve the most hunting opportunity possible in the face of a blatant attack against our culture that wolf introduction and recovery represents. Federal management as it is now is nothing short of a disaster. and yes, you out-of-state hunters will hurt for it all just like us. "Your" elk will feel the crunch and that will translate into less opportunity for you.

Oh, yes, there are many other troublesome elements to this whole sordid story, too, just one of them being the granting of authority to Indian Tribes to manage wolves. This promises to open another whole can of worms. As I have stated a million times, the whole program is an unmitigated disaster.

I do appreciate the back-and-forth. The issue is very complicated and very troublesome, but I do understand that many people and some hunters support wolf introduction.

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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98400 - 05/03/08 12:00 PM

A friend told me they opened or opened restricted hunting on them in Montana due to there not being way over 81 breeding adults - or whatever the minimum is for endangered species.
: This is looking good for an open season coming soon in Idaho as well.
: Is feeding them grease balls allowed?

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #98503 - 06/03/08 01:04 PM

Speaking of illegally killing wolves(I'm not condoning it either) has anyone else heard a story of someone who was believed to be poisoning wolves in a reintroduction program, and caught when DNA matched the poisoned deer meat in the dead wolves' stomachs to the deer meat in his freezer? Someone told me it was in northern Minnesota but I was curious if it actually happened or if it's something like "gun show gossip"-anyone know?

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Shackleton]
      #98533 - 06/03/08 09:46 PM

I heard about that one.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: AspenHill]
      #98541 - 07/03/08 01:06 AM

I think I've heard them all?

I do know that IF&G uses DNA matching to link poached deer carcasses {whatever is found after being reported to the Dept} with meat in freezers so the story may not be all that far off the mark.

DNA matching is not necessarily needed for testing all meat involved in game law violations. I reckon most violators of the game laws get caught due to the piece of meat that is stuck in their mouth, the one they never swallow.

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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98551 - 07/03/08 02:08 AM

Hadn't thought of using meat from my freezer for grease balls.

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Ripp
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98643 - 08/03/08 01:04 AM

Quote:

I think I've heard them all?

I do know that IF&G uses DNA matching to link poached deer carcasses {whatever is found after being reported to the Dept} with meat in freezers so the story may not be all that far off the mark.

DNA matching is not necessarily needed for testing all meat involved in game law violations. I reckon most violators of the game laws get caught due to the piece of meat that is stuck in their mouth, the one they never swallow.





Heard the same thing here in Montana--someone had shot a bull elk in another limited draw area--Fish and Game checked it out and thought something was up --so allegedly they did DNA samples and determined it was shot in another area that the hunter did not have a tag for--so apparently they are very sophisticated in their investigation procedures..have heard of several other incidences as well in the past couple of years that were used to catch "criminals"...

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: Ripp]
      #98646 - 08/03/08 01:58 AM

Some more information for those who are continuing to follow the developments:

Suits have been filed to stop the delisting process.

Per Todd Grimm, wildlife biologist for USDA Wildlife Services, his department killed 48 wolves in fiscal year 2007.

Of 133 depredations investigated by his department in 2007, 88 involved confirmed depredations, 19 were probable, 20 "possible or unknown" WOLF depredations.

Depredations involved 425 sheep, 75 cattle, 20 dogs.

Number of depredations increased 27% since 2006.

The Agency spent $387,000 on investigations and for managing wolves.

At least 36 of the 83 wolf packs in idaho were involved in livestock depredations.

Per USDA-APHIS Idaho Wildlife Services Wolf Activity Report, delisting wolves will probably not increase the number of wolves killed in Idaho.

Per Todd Grimm, USDA; "Wolf activist groups think there will be a slaughter, with dead wolves everywhere. That won't happen".

Of the 125 wolves killed by his agency in the last 5 years, only 20 were killed by shooting using conventional hunting methods. Per the above report, "Hunting from the gorund is not the most effective way to take wolves. After the public is allowed to begin hunting wolves, it would seem likely that wolves will become even more difficult to hunt as they become wary of humans."

Based on current trends, the agency "will almost certainly need to remove more wolves than ever before" if a court order stops the delisting process.

This from an article by Ralph Bartholdt in St Maries Gazette Record, March 5, 2008.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98656 - 08/03/08 03:20 AM

I might add:

The cost of wolf management promises to be just one bug bear OF wolf management. Under a state management plan, the cost needs to be covered by sale of tags. The state is well aware that a balance must established between the cost of wolf tags, the number shot and the likelihood any given hunter will have of killing one. All of these factors impact each other.

For example, the cost of a tag could be set so high that hunters would not purchase it unless they had a very good chance of killing a wolf. This would presuppose very high numbers of wolves and a concommittant significant reduction in elk numbers from where they are now. And it must be remembered that elk hunting is the driving force in out-of-state hunting license sales. A significant reduction in elk hunting opportunity will spell disaster for the state game department.

It is anticipated that wolves will learn very quickly to be wary of hunters, and in our timbered environment, that means a high level of difficulty in killing one by normal hunting methods. Anyone who hunts coyotes in the timber or tries to protect livestock from them or from feral dogs knows how incredibly difficult just getting a shot can be.

Another option is to make wolf tags so cheap everyone buys one along with his Sportsman's Package, or as a spare tag for those who only buy the basic hunting, elk and/or deer tag. In this scenario it is believed that by selling a large number of cheap tags, the law of large numbers might take effect and enough hunters might just happen to bump into a wolf that the numbers could be kept to the desired level {30 breeding pairs ~ c.100 wolves in Idaho}. This method may work. Or, too many may be shot and the threat of relisting yet again be dangled over the state.

No matter how you slice it, the introduction of wolves to Idaho has added an element of complication to the cost and management of game and hunting opportunity that will present very large difficulties to the state and less opportunity for the hunters of this state. In my opinion, the management of wolves in the environment of our state requires disproportionate measures and cost for the benefit received.

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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99011 - 12/03/08 08:29 AM

WHY NOT USE TRIP WIRE AND CLAYMORE MINES YEA YOU MIGHT GET A COUPLE IF INNOCENT NETS AND PEOPLE BUT MIGHT TAKE OUT THE WHOLE PACK AND IF YOU MOUNT IT ELEVATED IT WILL BE MORE POTENT.LETS SEE ANY ANIMAL CAN EAT THIS POISON MEATBALL THEN DYE THEN IS EATEN BY AN EAGLE COON OR WHAT EVER IT WILL ALSO DYE AND KEEP ON CYCLING SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD PLAN TO A STERILE ENVIORMENT.GOOD LUCK.....

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EricD
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99588 - 19/03/08 07:11 AM

An interesting (and long) article from Finland regarding wolf problems there: http://personal.inet.fi/luonto/mikael.broo/Policy.htm

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: EricD]
      #99898 - 21/03/08 11:14 PM

Erik:

Thank you very much for posting.

I printed the article and read it yesterday at the office.

It appears the issues are amazingly identical for the Finns as for us. The complete disregard for local interests represented by the European Commission mimics the same by our Federal Government.

I plan to contact this fellow and have already called the head of the Idaho Anti-Wolf Coalition.

In particular I would be very interested to pursue the legal concept of violation of civil rights by the introduction of wolves into the environment. The author and I are on the exact same page; wolves are no different than rats or tuberculosis and their introduction represents a threat to the life, lifestyle and property of citizens where they are introduced.

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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99910 - 22/03/08 01:08 AM

One of the major stumbling blocks of wolf hunting, is they prefer to hunt at night, preferring moon-lit nights which are also preferred by animals that move around eating at night - ie their food, the ungluates. It's a Disney deal that they are only howling at the moon. In moose camp, we hear then all night, every night, moon or no moon. You only hear the packs howling while they are actually chasing moose. Single wolf or coyote calls are locator calls.
: Since it's illegal to hunt at night, wolves aren't seen often, hense, aren't shot often.

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Wes350
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100726 - 29/03/08 10:25 AM

9.3x57,
Quote:


This issue isn't about wolves, it is about the destruction of traditions and philosophies of game management as very successfully implemented by our state Fish and Game Departments. They have been wildly successful in growing elk and deer herds in the West and deer in the East. It is, ultimately, about the destruction of hunting and the rights of property owners just as Dphariss says.





But they have only been successful in this only because the predation of these animals could be controled due to the elimination of the wolf from their habitat. They can control when deer/elk are hunted, because people obey game laws. So they are able to artifically manage/manipulate the population in a way that would have been impossible without the elimination of the wolf from the range.

Now they have to manage the Deer/elk populations this way due to the increased loss of habitat by man. And that's the kicker with the wolf introductions. The habitat is highly restricted now. The range they have been introduced to is no where near what is was even when the wolves were first wiped out.

These deer and elk herds have only so many places they can go to live, so for a wide ranging pedator like the wolf it's like shooting fish in a barrel. They are having such a devastaing effect because they are allowed to grow in numbers out of proportion to thier range due to the 'dense' concentration of prey. (which includes the many forms of livestock)

Quote:


Many so-called environmentalists fall in your camp, the camp that espouses the notion of the "circle of life", ...




Phrases like: "Circle of Life",and "ecosystem" are bunny hugging propaganda. They tell you everything is this co-dependent chain and if one link falls out things can come apart! It's pure B.S. - species of plants, animals, and insects, go extinct every day, and the world hasin't fallen apart yet.

Quote:


Thus, any wolf that steps off Federal ground could be legally shot, poisoned, dynamited, trapped or otherwise culled at the discretion of the property owner. THAT might be a just and culturally sensitive method of managing introduced species. Right now the rights of property owners are ignored and violated at every step of this discussion.




I would say if it's on Your Property it's fair game, (to protect livestock) but that's just me.
The civil rights thing appears worth looking into, anything that takes food out of your childrens mouths needs to be brought under control.

I doubt anything but an open season and allowing night-time hunting would really reduce the wolf population.

Unlike Leopard and lion of Africa - who's gona pay big bucks to shoot a wolf? It's just a wild dog after all. And at least the wild dogs of africa have Lions, Hyenas, and such to compete with. I doubt Bears, mountain lion and wolfs cross paths enough to have a significant impact on each other - but I'm open to being corrected.


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #102713 - 18/04/08 01:36 AM

13 wolves have been killed since delisting 3-28,some by hunters this was in wyoming,as hunters we have sacrificed but look at the results we brought back an animal we decided was not fit for the planet,sorry we dont have that right to decide no matter what we think.now we have a new game animal in the lower 48 i think it is great.now lets see what plans they have with the montana grizzly.i live in a state where we get to hunt an animal that has been delisted and i think it is a great idea.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102751 - 18/04/08 11:23 AM

The sacrifise hasn't even begun.

I called Wyoming Game and Fish today. Those wolves were shot outside the "protected" areas of Wyoming. From an estimated 35 in the unprotected area. That area treats wolves as unprotected game and they may be shot there like coyotes.

There is NO hunting season for wolves in Wyoming, and the recent shootings will for sure be addressed in future suits.

Don't get too excited yet.

Wait till at least 28 April {and beyond...}. 60 day "window" to file suit over delisting ends then. Several groups have announced intentions to file suit against the USF&W Service.

The carnival goes on.

According to the wolf recovery director in Idaho, wolves in Idaho killed 10,220 elk and deer {combined total} this year {14 elk/deer per wolf} in a state where much of the elk and deer hunting is by draw only. State plan would reduce those losses to c. 7,000 per year. Not a good trade for the piddly opportunity to shoot a wolf. Maybe a few rich non-residents will get their jollies chasing wolves in Idaho, but the cost is not worth any of it.

Not sure if the current legislative initiative will have any chance of success in Idaho, but I hope so.

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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102765 - 18/04/08 01:56 PM

hey wyoming lost me as an elk hunter when special tags hit almost a grand.rather go to africa for the 5 grand or more an elk hunt cost as a nonresident.did you really think right out of the gates it would be open season.not a chance.just like hide and seek there has to be a safe home.add to that the lion kill they need one every three to four days,and the bear killing calves and fawns and the coyotes.thats why they are prey.just another link in the food chain.remember 1/2 full not 1/2 empty.you and i know this will be a slow process your just along for the ride.they almost got away with listing the black bear.they want to stop polar bear hunts due to global warming.african hunting is going to take a hit.at least some of us got a chance to hunt something a few generations they will be saying rember when those men were able to hunt wow what a life that must of been i wonder what it was like

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102778 - 18/04/08 08:19 PM

Quote:

hey wyoming lost me as an elk hunter when special tags hit almost a grand.



You have the right to spend your money as you see fit. However there is a catch 22, which boils down to use it or lose it!

The reason prices go up is rising demand for those hunts - which indicates a high value placed on the quality of the experience and implies a game species conservation success in providing the resource to satisfy that demand.

If prices fall, it is because demand has fallen. This can either be because the game management policy has not suceeded and numbers have risen excessively and quality has declined, or becasue numbers and quality have declined. Either way, game species conservation is the loser in terms of reduced revenues. There can also be a negative impact on habitat quality. There is also a social impact on declining natural resource value, which for good or bad can only be measured by the willingness of individuals to pay for it.

If revenues from sightseers who want to see wolves are sufficient to balance the decline in sustainable use revenues (hunting), and the environmental quality of the area does not decline then that is fine (although one should also consider the impact on other land users such as farmers). However, we all know that experience in Kenya does not bear this theory out - declining species populations, declining habitat quality and a huge amount of revenue foregone through not allowing sustainale hunting.

We can complain all we want about the cost of hunting and as individuals it can hit us hard. However, in the long run we a winners because rising value and demand is the only pressure that can result in greater hunting opportunity and increasing availability of land for game species. From this perspective, introducing wolves in uncontained areas which creates a conflict with other sustainable resource uses would appear to be bad policy, planning and management.


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102786 - 18/04/08 10:49 PM

with wyoming the set up the number of tags goes by the resident population of humans not animals.like many western states low resident revenue has to be sugsidised by nonresident pockets.heck put the wolf in the east the deer here breed like rats and have no predators but us.but make it a trade we will export wild boar which breed three times a year heck we dont even need to export they are spreading well on thier own and they can swim too so they will expand out of the south they are heading north and west now.wolf vs 300lb boar that would be a scrap.i do hear alot of people who dont live here tell us what to do but dollars are like votes in a corp. they will have a say when they have a healthy share of the organization.but that is another debate.the days of family hunting in wyoming are slipping away.even with just 1 child and spouse its a 30+ deal does that sound middle class.everyone looking from inside the mirror its the hunter that is the endangered spieces we are on the list.nature has regulated itself for ions when humans try to help one way or another things get sticky dont they.we wanted the wolves out then wanted them back we exterminated the buffalo we altered the everglades to suit us and now we see it was better before.this forum is not about wolves rights its about hunters

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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102794 - 18/04/08 11:41 PM

bwana,
having trouble following alot of your post but seems you've experienced a less than satisfactory wyoming hunt.
nonresidents wanting to hunt elk here should apply for a general license, not a special.
five grand for an african hunt that comes anywhere close to a horseback hunt in the high rockies? doubt it. not sure there's an african hunt anywhere for any price, that rivals a high mountain horseback hunt!
30+ for a hunt with two family members? you must stay at a different teepee than i do!
wolves? i have my opinions on them, but can tell you in my area the big game mortality due to motor vehicle encounters and human encroachment on winter range, mostly trophy homes, concernes me far more than wolves! at least they eat them!


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: rscott]
      #102799 - 19/04/08 01:32 AM

no i always did well,but thats not my point.my point is we the average hunter are being squeezed out by license prices.up 300% even the general tag left for common folk you only have a 3/10 shot the special is 7/10 who has the better chance.preferance points up 1200%.it will take you 13 years to have a 1:4 chance at a sheep that is 1300$ just to get in the game.history is repeating itself only royalty will be able to hunt.happened once will happen again like i said the average hunter is on the ESL.less youth less oppertunity for the rest.the majority here wont feel it but the majority here have fewer days left afield.look around at sci this year,crowd is getting older.there will be a time when like the mountain man the hunter will only be history.

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102802 - 19/04/08 02:13 AM

Quote:

there will be a time when like the mountain man the hunter will only be history.




This might very well be true.

Our State has initiated a number of polls to determine what type of hunting experience is desired by the most hunters. Interestingly, the younger hunters seem to want to "get something", with trophy quality taking second or far distant second place. Then there are those like myself who are essentially meat hunters, caring little about trophy quality. I fit in quite well with the youngsters. We have shot some nice horns, but I and my kids have far more fun retelling the tales of the season around a roast cooked up by my good wife than we do around a set of horns.

Others want big racks and care little about shooting an elk, deer, etc unless it has a big set of horns. The State has to try to balance all these conflicting desires.

From what I've read, the largest number of Idaho hunters seem to fall closer to the "meat first, trophy second" goal than the other way around. For those of us in this camp, deer and elk are the primary quarry and are, in effect, seen as a crop; a renewable, sustainable crop we would like to see managed for the highest possible success rate.

Wolf introduction threatens and will impact that. The director himself will not mince words on the subject, but will state clearly that wolves will reduce hunter opportunity. The hope is that the impact won't be too great. IF the State of Idaho gets its way and can manage around the 500 wolf goal, I suspect we could live with it, tho we won't like it. As I've stated above, I want to see the State get control of wolves, but I fear they will not for quite some time due to litigation. I sincerely hope I am totally wrong on this score.

rscott: Wolf impact does indeed seem to vary quite a bit area to area, with some units here experiencing serious predation and others not so much. Our State plan is quite a bit different than Wyoming's. We have no "predator" area but rather , the State intends to establish quotas for wolf shooting, the seasons to be ended when the quotas are reached. That is, assuming the State ever gets control enough to implement a season.

Interestingly to me, the one main defence the State has in court will be the success of wolf recovery itself. Where the enviro's hoped to lock up vast areas of the West during a long and difficult wolf recovery period, what has happened instead is that the things have bred like flies and it is getting harder and harder for the wolf lovers to say wolves are threatened in any way. In a weird way I guess it can almost be said that wolves are the wolf lover's worst enemy...

Human population growth always impacts game animals, but it doesn't necessarily and always impact to the negative. For example, various types of timber management have strongly benefited game numbers greatly in our State, as have various farming practices. A small reminder of this fact is found about 60 yards from my house as I type this; many piles of fresh elk dung. This time of year my hayfields feed 100-200 deer and 25-75 elk or so.

If they would only stick around during elk season!

I got a picture of the rascals this morning, over in my pine plantation. Here they are...



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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102820 - 19/04/08 03:28 AM

you are truely blesssed a sight like this,elk the smell of pine ,mountains to please the eye.you truely lack for little for god has gifted you with a chance all of us only could dream of savor every minute there are no do overs.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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rscott
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Loc: wyo., USA
Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102821 - 19/04/08 03:37 AM

bwana,
last time i checked i think it was around 17 years for residents to draw a sheep tag so seems you've got a leg up!


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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: rscott]
      #102843 - 19/04/08 05:54 AM

no its 13 i check the stats yearly depends on the area also but remember i said at 13 its a 1:4 so yours is right also.i agree 13-17 years.took only 5 years for moose,and all i lack is the sheep thats the only one i really want not the goat,already got a buffalo.my boy has 9 moose points and i have 6.but for us poor folks we have no other option but the draw,what does a sheep hunt go for in canada 18+,at least it is not like other states where winners can sell thier tag to the highest bidder.but 9 when they legalize that wolf hunt take me along i'll trade an alligator for a wolf.i've seen a 200lb boar snatched from the bank by one of those big lizards.i've taken over a hundred now my biggest 13 1/2 feet and i think i can break the state record been chasing one for 2 years a t rex in size.here again only 4000 tags and 1.5 million gators

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