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hoppdoc
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BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN??
      #60463 - 28/07/06 06:23 AM

I consider the most dangerous NA game to be --BIG BEARS-be it Griz, Brown bear or polar bear.

Question--
If you had to b/u someone and carry a short range "stopper' would you prefer a big Double over a slugged shotgun, sxs or semiautomatic? My friends tell me Fishermen in Alaska usually prefer slugged shotty's.They feel they penetrate and kill well on any bear encountered.Theyfeel the harsh weather would select a shotty over a Double as well.
My gut makes me lean to a semiauto with brenneke slugs for sheer firepower but if a prudent concern for reliabilty/penetration power in harsh environments surfaces then a double rifle may beat out any SG. Choosing between a slugged double barreled shotty and a Double rifle would be less hard the bigger the bear got. as the Doubles penetration would probably play the trump card in this matchup.
UGGH!
A stainless steel synthetic DR for NA hunting just flashed before my eyes!

Any thoughts on ultimate close range stoppers for bear attacks? Sometimes that big bore bolt may not cut it.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/07/06 06:26 AM)


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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60473 - 28/07/06 02:07 PM

hoppdoc
The reason so many people carry a shot gun is that they are inexpensive.

A big calibre double would be a much better choice... But they are just to expensive.

I would prefer a 45/70 Marlin Guide gun to any shotgun.
I have shot deer and pigs with a slug... same animals with a 45/70.
I would much prefer the Marlin, while not as good as a double it is affordable for anyone who values their hide.
I would also carry a 44 mag revolver if legal,[it is not in Canada for example].


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60479 - 28/07/06 02:35 PM

I agree with 450, and I live here, doing a lot of field work in the summer on the backside of nowhere along salmon streams. I have carried shotguns, I've carried handguns and I've carried rifles. My current long arm for bear protection is a 411 Hawk stoked with 400 grain Woodleighs.

Just any old slug doesn't cut it. I've seen bears wounded and get away from folks using the "Foster" type slugs. They are just too soft and density is too low. James Gates at Dixie Slugs is supplying some Paradox slugs that I would feel comfortable carrying.

I had rather rely on a rifle rather than a shotgun if possible. If you are really concerned, check out James' Terminator or Predator slugs, or get a 458, cut the barrel to 18-20" and load with some 500 grain premium bullets.

For this Alaskan, I prefer a rifle.

By the way, Professional guides here in Alaska that guide for bear carry rifles, not shotguns, for backup. 416's and 458's are the norm. I do not know a single one that carries a shotgun for that purpose.


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #60531 - 29/07/06 09:41 PM

My personal big bear rifle is a 338 all weather Ruger rebarreled and redone to 458 WM by Labounty.It sports a red dot scope of late.Doubt I would use the red dot for prolonged use in a harsh environment.When the red dot goes the scope is useless.

Although its penetration will exceed a Brenneke slug considerably I really enjoy carrying the non scoped Beretta semi with Brennekes.I can shoot the shotgun 3x before I canget the bolt down for a second shot on the 458.

What would be the Ultimate NA/Alaskan bear gun for harsh environments?
How about a 470 or 500 NE stainless Double rifle with synthetic stockwork? GAG!! Would that not be an ugly thing? But it would get the job done repeatedly with the most reliability.

I hereby volunteer to test such a gun if any manufacturor would actually consider making it!!



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/07/06 09:45 PM)


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577Enfield
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61982 - 01/09/06 08:48 AM

I tend to carry my 12 gauge SxS shotgun loaded with slugs for bears. That said I have not had to use it in an attack situation where I needed a stopper. My 458 Lott would certainly be a good cartridge, but in a Ruger #1 I would rather have at least a second shot. My 577's are slow loaders for second shots so the double slug gun is my first choice.

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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #62003 - 02/09/06 06:44 AM

In reply to:

I would prefer a 45/70 Marlin Guide gun to any shotgun.




Ditto. I lived in Alaska for about 2-1/2 years and if I was doing it all over again that would be the way I would go.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62525 - 16/09/06 07:05 AM

The very best bear stoppers at touching ranges, are 12 bore Pump guns loaded with solid round balls.
: A properly trained shooter can shoot much faster with a pump than with an autoloader. Working the slide brings the barrel back to bear, without having to muscle it down. It happens automatically - with training, 3 aimed shots at 25 feet in less than 2 seconds are easily done - You need only practise! Start with trap loads. Model 870 20" bl. riot guns are my favourite (and specialty). They're what I trained our local riot squad boys on. I used to slam 6 B27 silouettes at 25 yards in 3 seconds, using buckshot loads, as a demo, of course. This is difficult if not impossible to do with an auto. You should have 3 empties in the air at once.
: A properly loaded pump, will have those round balls almost or at bore size (non-chokes only), and at a safe velocity of 1,400fps to 1,500fps. This is easily ackomplished with SR4756 powder or Unique or Herco if you wish. Safe load development is necessary. Lyman shotshell handbook has some data for reference.
: Factory slugs will work OK, but I'd much prefer the 1-1/4 ounce solid round ball at the African BP equivalent velocity of 1,500fps. 545gr. of solid lead is better than 437 to 500gr. of hollowbased soft lead from the factory Foster slugs. Any big bore rifle (like a .375 or .458) is better than the undersized 12 bore sabots.
: The above is about the most slam you can get in a rapid firing gun. My smoothbore made 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards, plenty good enough for close range hunting or protection.
: Stay away from black powder loads for these fast firing, defense loads. Due to the amount of powder required (as in the African BP loads) recoil is extremely high in an 8 pound gun and fast shooting is next to impossible. Too, the smoke hides the quarry.
: Shooting round balls in 12 bore is fun, as is the load development involved. They can be accurate, much more so than hollow based factory ammo. Smaller balls, like .615" RB's fit inside 12 bore trap wads, and can be an easy way to develope lighter round ball loads. They are very light, though, only running 320gr. or so. So- 2, .615" round balls weighs about 640 gr. which is almost 1-1/2 ounces, a most lethal impact at close range. A 12 bore will drive 1-1/2 ounces up to about 1,400fps with safe breech pressure. There are no real limits for someone with imagination and ability to develop his own data - tread softly here. This is only for those who understand what they're doing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470Nitro
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #71124 - 10/02/07 07:14 AM

Something like....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute


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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 470Nitro]
      #71125 - 10/02/07 07:58 AM

MAYDAY!

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #71195 - 11/02/07 07:06 AM

That'd get the adrenilin up, eh.
: One of those popping it's teeth at you from 5 yards away at 2AM just outside the tent is another. It's amazing how quiet the snorer's are when that's coming down.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 470Nitro]
      #71228 - 11/02/07 03:25 PM

Wonder why the guy (right side of frame) with a shotgun didn't fire any least a warning shot..??

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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71229 - 11/02/07 03:29 PM

BTW, I agree with Daryl on the best stopper. Mine is a 12 gauge 870 Remington Marine Mag. Stainless Steel 3" with 7 shot capacity. When I'm not in Alaska, it sits an arms reach away from my bed. I sleep very well thank you.

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tinker
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71267 - 12/02/07 02:54 AM

Warning shot?
I'd feel the shooting that led to the charge to be enough of a warning...



--Tinker


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Shanster
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: tinker]
      #71403 - 13/02/07 03:45 PM

nice shot with a pucker factor of about 10.
Sow with cubs at 8 yards 99.999 chance of getting mauled.
Shannon


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Paatti
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Shanster]
      #72197 - 22/02/07 07:37 AM

12 pump may be quite good choice, but I personally take sxs or O/U if have to take a shotgun. I have used 870 rem as my primary shotgun for 11 years now and I thought that have learned something about it. Pump action could be very fast but I disagree what Daryl_s said that pump is much faster than autoloader. Autoloader is allways faster than pump but pump is allways more reliable.
For wounded bear I might use 9,3x74R/12g combigun and if there is larger bullet caliber available I prefer that. For 9,3 I choose 320gr Woodleigh and for 12g 8,6mm buckshot.


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DM
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72217 - 22/02/07 10:59 AM

I've spent a lot of time bear hunting and have harvested several, includeing browns... I see most folks here, like on other sites that answer these kinds of questions, are always focused on how many shots they can get off, or at least the second or third shot. My experience has been that "one" in the right spot is much better than several someplace else! This is one time when you need to "break" the animial down, not do the "spray and pray" or even rib shoot it! It only takes one shot to break a bear down, giveing you plenty of time for the follow up killing shot.

I've never felt undergunned with anything from a "properly loaded" 7 mag. on up, and i built my custom bear rifle in .338-06. I've not had any problems at all flattening big bears with that rifle and i prefer 275 grain Speers loaded in it.

I'd pick a rifle every time over a shotgun, and a double rifle would be great!! Like was said, it's the cost of one that holds folks back...

How many of you suggesting "your weapon idea" is best, has actually hunted and harvested a big bear with that weapon???

DM


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Paatti
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DM]
      #72261 - 22/02/07 06:16 PM

I think that quite many who suggested shotgun for a bear thought about attacking bear and close ranges. I used to use my 9,3x62 battue rifle in brownbear (there are only brownies in finland) hunting and it would be good choice in any bear situations.
If there was situation that bear attacks on you at 30 mph and you get your first shot at 20 yds could you really stop that attack before that bear reach you?


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DM
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72379 - 24/02/07 02:40 AM

Quote:

If there was situation that bear attacks on you at 30 mph and you get your first shot at 20 yds could you really stop that attack before that bear reach you?




To answer with "one" word, yes!

I see it this way. I have 2 choises, concentrate on the second, third or ? shot (spray and pray theory) OR concentrate on the first shot. I choose to concentrate on the first shot, let them come close and break them down with the first shot. There's plenty of time for more shooting after that.

I was charged one time by a brown bear, meaning the bear actually had me in her sights and had two big cubs with her. I stood my ground letting her get to within 30 yards where she broke off and stopped. She was comeing down hill, and comeing fast! I was going to let her come a bit closer and drop her, but she saved her own life. There's no doubt that she would have been a dead bear. That's not too bad considering how many times over the years i've jumped them in the tall grass or alders...

I was charged by a large german shepard dog that there's NO DOUBT would have done me harm. His problem was, i had a S&W revolver with me, and at the shot he slid to my feet....dead. Over the years i've also been charged by moose....

All of these incidents have long stories to go with them, and i'm only up to "two fingers" with my typeing, so they are too long to relate today. hahahaa

DM


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DM]
      #72423 - 24/02/07 02:23 PM

DM,

Bravo, man. That's what firearms are for!
Thanks for your post.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72433 - 24/02/07 04:55 PM

If you shoot a charging bear at 20 yards in Alaska, it is very likely you will be fined heavily. To be considered defenseable in life or property, the bear better have powder burns on it when you kill it. I'm only half joking. As described above, it is very difficult to tell when or if a bear is going to stop its charge. The bear doesn't know.

Best is to plan on one shot, make it close and make it good. Unless you have a bear tag in your pocket...


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #72443 - 24/02/07 09:51 PM

DM is correct--

With Bears the FIRST SHOT must "break 'em down" and stop the attack.This should be into the vital chest/shoulder region depending on the angle presented.Subsequent shots should be heart/lung with a finisher to the CNS if needed.

Bears are incredibly quick when they choose to be.They are heavy boned and can be tough to kill.

Best Gun? Personal choice but bear means "BIG BORE RIFLE "to me.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/02/07 09:54 PM)


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #74226 - 21/03/07 05:38 AM

Quote:

If you shoot a charging bear at 20 yards in Alaska, it is very likely you will be fined heavily. To be considered defenseable in life or property, the bear better have powder burns on it when you kill it. I'm only half joking. As described above, it is very difficult to tell when or if a bear is going to stop its charge. The bear doesn't know.

Best is to plan on one shot, make it close and make it good. Unless you have a bear tag in your pocket...




When elk hunting this year I turned a blackie at 1 foot with a poke in the nose of my Hawkins 50 cal. I was roaring and yelling at him from about 20 yards out. This bear had absolutely no fear of humans, he turned around after about 10 yards to look at me again, then walked away. I did not have a license, so I didn't want to shoot. I did have that front bead right on his noggin though! If it had been a brownie, I think would have dropped him 10 yards out....if the old Hawkins would have done it.

I can read blackies pretty well having dealt with a lot of camp raiders, but I know nothing about the Brownies.


BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #74308 - 22/03/07 11:05 AM

Except for possibly DPhillips I wonder how many others who answered here have actually delt with big bears up close, much less had to stop a real charge.
My personal preference for the past twenty five years has been my short 458 Win Mauser bolt rifle but in answer to the original question I would un-hesitantly take a big double rifle over any shotgun. I have used shotguns on black bears but having to face a wounded, charging Brown or Polar Bear with one would scare me to death.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #75011 - 30/03/07 07:05 AM

Quote:

Except for possibly DPhillips I wonder how many others who answered here have actually dealt with big bears up close, much less had to stop a real charge.
My personal preference for the past twenty five years has been my short 458 Win Mauser bolt rifle but in answer to the original question I would un-hesitantly take a big double rifle over any shotgun. I have used shotguns on black bears but having to face a wounded, charging Brown or Polar Bear with one would scare me to death.




How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #75095 - 31/03/07 02:03 AM

Quote:

How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS




Blain,
Phil knows what he is talking about. He makes a better part of his living guiding bear hunters in Alaska. So he has probably faced down more than one charge. Also he writes for some of the most popular publications. He is one of the few people writing that can be trust to tell it the way it is.

If you can get ahold of it you might like the article he wrote called "A Rigby in the Outhouse". It is humorous but about where they had to keep a rifle in their outhouse because they live in bear country and could get trapped there.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #75223 - 01/04/07 01:38 PM

Blain,
Do a search for Phil Shoemaker, or visit Wolfe Publishing's website for more about Phil's credentials. He knows bears, better than most I suspect. We all make our own conclusions based on our own personal experiences, but it never hurts to listen to those that make their living as professional hunters and spend most of their life in the bear's kitchen, more than not.

My own field experiences are along Alaska's gulf coast, though well east of Phil's area. Until recently, I was in the field more than at home during Alaska's spring, summer and fall. I'll take large caliber rifle firing heavy for caliber premium bullets any day over a slug loaded shotgun.

As I stated before, I do not know one single guide here in Alaska that chooses to carry a slug or buckshot loaded shotgun for backup of his clients. That should mean something. I've carried both, I've even carried a handgun. I've seen the effect of all three on ill-tempered bears at close range. A heavy rifle has been the most effective in all instances that I have observed.

There are some occasions where I still pack a handgun instead of a long gun, but there are no instances where I favor a shotgun over a rifle.


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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #75229 - 01/04/07 05:58 PM

Watching the hunter, after his first shot, it looks like he has a feeding problem with his rifle.

Later after his second shot he looks like he is working on the action and maybe picking up a live round off the ground and reloading his rifle with it.


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #75234 - 01/04/07 10:49 PM

Agreed--

Makes the case for an Alaskan Double doesn't it??

An "Alaskan" 470NE or 450/400 would have may 'em feel a bit better with a charging Brown bear I bet!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #75408 - 03/04/07 07:15 AM

Quote:

Blain,
Do a search for Phil Shoemaker, or visit Wolfe Publishing's website for more about Phil's credentials. He knows bears, better than most I suspect. We all make our own conclusions based on our own personal experiences, but it never hurts to listen to those that make their living as professional hunters and spend most of their life in the bear's kitchen, more than not.

My own field experiences are along Alaska's gulf coast, though well east of Phil's area. Until recently, I was in the field more than at home during Alaska's spring, summer and fall. I'll take large caliber rifle firing heavy for caliber premium bullets any day over a slug loaded shotgun.

As I stated before, I do not know one single guide here in Alaska that chooses to carry a slug or buckshot loaded shotgun for backup of his clients. That should mean something. I've carried both, I've even carried a handgun. I've seen the effect of all three on ill-tempered bears at close range. A heavy rifle has been the most effective in all instances that I have observed.

There are some occasions where I still pack a handgun instead of a long gun, but there are no instances where I favor a shotgun over a rifle.




I'm sure he knows his stuff...

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75409 - 03/04/07 07:20 AM


Blain,
Phil knows what he is talking about. He makes a better part of his living guiding bear hunters in Alaska. So he has probably faced down more than one charge. Also he writes for some of the most popular publications. He is one of the few people writing that can be trust to tell it the way it is.

If you can get ahold of it you might like the article he wrote called "A Rigby in the Outhouse". It is humorous but about where they had to keep a rifle in their outhouse because they live in bear country and could get trapped there.




Yup he sure does. Wish he would share that knowledge with the rest of us. I'd like to hear his stories.

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75413 - 03/04/07 08:51 AM

I have "re-thunk-it" and if given the choice of a medium DR (9.3x74 or 375Flanged) vs a shotgun to accompany me on a walk through bear country, I would choose the DR.

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COLDSTEEL
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75954 - 09/04/07 01:13 AM

If I had asked the question, I'd have hoped 458 WIN would have posted a reply. There are few, if any, more qualified to address the subject.

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tinker
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #75960 - 09/04/07 02:52 AM

I too think it'd be great to hear the reply.
Perhaps he's out hunting..?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: tinker]
      #76016 - 09/04/07 02:32 PM

Quote:

I too think it'd be great to hear the reply.
Perhaps he's out hunting..?
--Tinker



I suspect he is now. If not, he's probably getting getting everything ready to head out.


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475Guy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76032 - 10/04/07 01:37 AM

Since this comes up on a regular basis, I have one question. Has anyone used a shotgun, with whatever load, in successful defense against a BIG bear? Is it documented and not an urban legend? No HEARSAY BS, please.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #76515 - 14/04/07 11:56 PM

Daryl S,you are right on the money.
Rem 870 and round ball or brenekke.
But heck we only have the odd drop bear around here.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (15/04/07 12:14 AM)


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AdamTayler
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #76816 - 18/04/07 03:17 AM

I use a scoped bolt action when hunting bears, but I always take my open sighted Rem 870 with slugs on my trips as well. It is a lot easier to handle in the thick stuff after the shooting has stopped. I believe a lever action 45/70 with open sights would work as well, so use what you are most comfortable with. For me, it is the 870. In open country, the shotgun would be redundant IMO.

Here's a quote from "Bear Hunting in Alaska" by Tony Russ, pp 272-273: "If you do have to shoot a bear at close range, be prepared. As Keith Johnson, a notable brown bear guide, says, "...any pistol is a poor weapon against a brown bear." (Unpredictable Giants). Stopping an attacking brown bear at close range with the most powerful handguns made is difficult even in the most expert hands. Twelve-guage shot guns may be slightly better weapons for this purpose, but their soft slugs don't penetrate as well as dangerous-game bullets from a heavy calibre rifle. Bear hunters should be carrying a heavy calibre rifle with a well contructed bullet anyway, and that is what you would want to use to stop an attacking brown bear"

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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #76818 - 18/04/07 03:26 AM

Adam,
Careful quoting T. Russ, he also recommends against using Mauser actioned rifles "because they are prone to jam". He does have some odd ideas...

While I agree with your position, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the name mentioned is to quit reading.


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AdamTayler
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76820 - 18/04/07 03:54 AM

Quote:

Adam,
Careful quoting T. Russ, he also recommends against using Mauser actioned rifles "because they are prone to jam". He does have some odd ideas...

While I agree with your position, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the name mentioned is to quit reading.




Yes Dave, I read that as well and I do not agree with it either. I read his book to see if I could learn any tricks or tips, and compare my experiences with his. As you could tell, my opinion is at the top of my post, and Tony's is at the bottom. No need to stop reading, just skip a few lines.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #76821 - 18/04/07 04:02 AM

I recall reading an article some years ago whereby the author gave advice to wouldbe hunters using large calibre pistols and his sagely words were roughly as follows...
in the event that you are going take a pistol into the field for brown bear, be certain to first file off the front sight so that it is completely flush with the barrel, in this manner it wont hurt nearly as much when the bear shoves it up your ass...."
struck me as good instruction


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76854 - 18/04/07 02:29 PM

Well, large bore handguns are better than nothing. And by nothing I mean a rifle or shotgun that you don't have in your hands or is leaning up against a tree out of reach or slung on your back. Ever tried fishing with a rifle or shotgun in a position where you can access it if needed at a moments notice? Ever tried to carry one while working a survey crew with a backpack loaded with instruments and supplies while your hands are full of bars and diggers?

Sometimes the only thing that does make sense is not the most effective, but the most accessible.


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PTinMT
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76858 - 18/04/07 03:48 PM

Well, you will dance with what brung' you. A rifle leaning up against a tree while you are gutting an elk north of Yellowstone is of little use. Rifle shots are dinner bells to the grizz around here and though a handgun is a poor substitute for my 9.3x62, the fact that it never leaves my side might mean the difference between just being maimed and being dead.

I've guided in Yellowstone National Park and the Park service takes a dim view of anything except bear spray. I can say with some pride that I've never had to use it, I always managed to avoid any confrontations with bears or resolve them at a safe distance. It is far better to never get into trouble than to get out of it. The problem is that the later leaves you with no good stories.

Back up? Phil and the rest of the guides that regularly walk up to large bears with the intent of doing them harm trump anything anyone else might say for me. Back up rifles would start with my 9.3x62 and go up I'd think (As I recall Phil carried one for back up in one of his articles). I am very familiar with that rifle so it would be my first choise. I've seen a 286gr NP go length wise through an elk and rip it to shreads inside. I think it would be a good starting point. I've shot elk and a black bear with a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 with 350gr slugs, works well. Might be a good choise for someone who uses a lever gun a lot. Handles nice, but I found the recoil too much with any useful load.

Best back up? No back up. Good first shot. Stay alert. Be prepared for and expect the worst and you'll be surprised how often it turns out you have no good stories.


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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76882 - 18/04/07 09:44 PM

DPhillips...as I recall the advice was for those hunting bear expressly with a pistol and I do agree with you in that you should use what you have at your disposal hell a stick in the eye of the attacker still beats "hey bear go away"

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76929 - 19/04/07 03:54 AM

Probably right, but he does mention fishermen and stopping a bear attack. Attacks can occur during any season. Very seldom am I unarmed in bear country, no matter the activity. I do admit to not being armed while wood cutting though, unless you consider a chainsaw a weapon...

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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #79559 - 29/05/07 12:25 PM


How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS




If I came across as condescending in any way I apologize. I simply was giving my opinion to the question. I don't usually get on this forum as I am seldom near a computor fast enough. Plus I dislike the confrontive attitude displayed by some who do post.
My homestead on the Alaska Peninsula is situated in one of the densest populations of Brown Bears in the state and my clients have taken well over a hundred Brown Bears. I have been forced to shoot quite a few but only a couple have actually come close to getting me. My choice of the 458 is based on a number of factors. I have personally killed big bears with everything from the 30-06 to the 9.3x62, 9.5x62, 375 H&H , 416, 458 and 505 Gibbs. I have used Hornady, Nosler Partitions, GS, Barnes X, Woodleighs, Speer Grand Slams, Swifts, North Forks and Kodiaks.
Although it's not a shot I recommed to clients, my favorite shot is high, directly on the point of the shoulder - if the bear is at all broadside. Even on charging bears I try to break the spine between the shoulders .

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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Plains99
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #79620 - 31/05/07 02:08 AM

When I was up there, I bought and carried a used Mossberg 500 smooth bore slug gun loaded with 1 1/4oz Hevi-shot rifled slugs mainly on the advice of others. Never had to use it or even thought about using it... but I was advised to use slugs rather than buckshot. Since then the 500 has remained my main camp gun. It is light, powerful,has done very well on feral hogs and shoots both slugs and shot effectively. I like it and consider it far more flexible for defense than a rifle.

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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Plains99]
      #79628 - 31/05/07 04:33 AM

I agree that a 12 guage shotgun is the most versatile, flexible weapon for protection from most everything -including bears. they give you the option of carrying naoise making cracker shells, flares, rubber pellets and light bird shot for less than lethal use and the very best, deep penetrating slugs should deter all but the most determained, largest bruins, and even then I'll bet it could be done.
If we are discussing stopping a wounded bear, that is attacking, then I still recommend a big bore rifle.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #79633 - 31/05/07 05:40 AM

My wife shot a wild pig, and I have shot a deer and a wild pig with a slug.
I was not too terribly impressed.

I much prefer a rifle.

I would rather have my Winchester 44 Mag Trapper, with proper bullets, than any shotgun.


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Plains99
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79687 - 31/05/07 11:49 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with the rifle for stopping a charging bear. If I was going to be in really dangerous bear country I'd be packing my .458 as well... but since I haven't been, I don't know about cartridges. I imagine a 500-grain Hornady Interbond would work for serious bear stopping better than a solid???
Handguns. I have nothing against them and I often carry a .45 Colt in the field for backup to muzzleloaders... but I'd much rather carry a carbine or a shotgun. Seriously, I'd rather have a slung .30-30 lever action carbine in dangerous country than a handgun.


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #80420 - 12/06/07 12:22 PM

I too want to know where this "12 gauge Bear Stopper" myth came from. Where are the hordes of "Alaskans" who are always referred to who have stopped bear at chaw-spitting distance with a shotgun?

I have never hunted big bear but I have shot several {8} blackies of the local ilk, having also been in on the running of many with hounds {having them outrun many hounds also, their endurance is phenomenal}. After my experiences watching them take bullets and cover ground, I am duly impressed.

Only one of my bear went truly sour, but it very, I having shot it 6 times with a .44 mag revolver. All shots would have been lethal by themselves in time. These bullets demonstrated zero stopping effect {no CNS hit}. Three of those shots were fired with the muzzle stuck into the hair of the critter's chest. Vitals were mush but that bear still fought the dogs and me for maybe 2 minutes {I never stopped to take a close look at my watch}. My 13-year-old son put the last round in it, jumping over my shoulder and stuffing the thing with his 7x57R. Others were nearby and we all stood heaving and shaking after the affair was done. A big bear would have bit me in half.

Another sow I shot fell out of the tree after taking a 402 grain bullet from my .45-70 through the chest from below, the bullet exiting between her shoulders above. She hit the ground after a 25 or so foot fall and got up, shook a bit and looked for a dog to eat. I shot her again twice.

All my other bear were killed in a straightforward way without much drama so I am metaphysically certain bear can be KILLED with light calibers. I killed them with .30-30, .303, 7.62x54R, 9.3x57 and the .45-70. I am not going to say it takes a heavy rifle to kill bear, even big bear.

In addition, I have also shot many slugs into various test media. Penetration is generally poor and recovered Foster slugs typically look like donuts complete with center hole and even the mighty Brenneke and Aquila slugs perform in no way comparably to a heavy rifle. WOLFE publishing printed an interesting report put together by the Forest Service IIRC comparing various rifles and the shotgun for bear stopping some years ago. If anybody cares enough I'd be happy to dig around and find it and cite the Volume.

I interviewed the great Harold Johnson {creator of the .450 AK} shortly before his death and he told me many stories that only serve to convince me.

After my own experiences with live bear and ballistic media, I believe a guy would be making a very, very serious mistake to choose a shotgun over a heavy rifle if a fight with a big bear was even a remote possibility.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (12/06/07 02:05 PM)


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #80422 - 12/06/07 12:58 PM

Think I read of an old maneater monster Alaskan Grizz who killed many folk but finally a man and a woman sightseer, partially ate them and then attacked a hunter with a 7 mag who shot the animal ?(5)multiple times with apparent minimal effect before the creature died.The hunter reloaded for the killing shots.The monster bear is displayed at a fed site somewhere.

I think a proper stopping gun would be 458 class(not 45-70!) and NOT a shotgun, although smaller rifle calibers will obviously kill a non charging animal.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80570 - 14/06/07 04:30 AM

Quote:

Think I read of an old maneater monster Alaskan Grizz who killed many folk but finally a man and a woman sightseer, partially ate them and then attacked a hunter with a 7 mag who shot the animal ?(5)multiple times with apparent minimal effect before the creature died.The hunter reloaded for the killing shots.The monster bear is displayed at a fed site somewhere.

I think a proper stopping gun would be 458 class(not 45-70!) and NOT a shotgun, although smaller rifle calibers will obviously kill a non charging animal.



That story is an internet legend (fraud)...

The bear was taken by Ted Winnen on a hunt. It had not eaten anyone and wasn't anywhere near as large as the rumors reported it to be, though it was still quite large. Although I did hear that it dunked on Shaq once...

Winnen used a 338 Win Mag on the hunt.


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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #80644 - 15/06/07 12:57 AM

Here is the ultimate bear stopper. http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Tatume
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #80647 - 15/06/07 01:15 AM

Hello Folks,
Is it just me, or do any of you have doubts about a product based on poor grammer in the advertisements? My feeling is, if they can't go to the trouble of proof-reading the ad, how much attention to detail do they give the product?

Example: http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

Take care, Tom


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Tatume]
      #80666 - 15/06/07 10:03 AM

Quote:

Hello Folks,
Is it just me, or do any of you have doubts about a product based on poor grammer in the advertisements?

Take care, Tom




Oops.

I assume you mean "grammar".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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3sixbits
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #82915 - 23/07/07 11:17 AM

Anybody that wants to have to kill any bear in defence of life or property in this state of Alaska, is nuts. ANYTHING you can do to avoid that is the way to go. You kill one you have to surrender the head and hide to the state. One hell of a lot of work.

870 Remington mag extension tube 20" barrel with slugs is State issue for government employees in the bush for bear protection.


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82917 - 23/07/07 11:31 AM

Quote:

870 Remington mag extension tube 20" barrel with slugs is State issue for government employees in the bush for bear protection.




Cheap & easily obtained. Two prime requisites for gubmn't bureaucratic decision-making in many categories.

Seriously, I wonder how many of these shootin' irons have ever been used against a seriously motivated large bear.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Shackleton
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #84194 - 18/08/07 10:37 AM

Why not the right double shotgun with slugs? Last year I saw a 3 1/2 inch mag slug load intended for "dangerous game". I'm assuming a nice and heavy hard slug but didn't look into it any farther-don't need a load that heavy for Iowa whitetails. They were about $30 for a box of 5, but if you're not going to use them outside of a life and death situation why would you need more than 2-3 boxes(one to find out what to expect, the rest in case they're needed). That way, it's still a "double", add rifled choke tubes(my shotgun's only a Stoeger but I'm sure some higher end makers offer doubles that take choke tubes) for a bit of accuracy improvement if desired-probably unnecessary at charging range, but someone might want it for hunting. Buy a double in 3 1/2 inch or if barrel contours allow it ream a 3 inch to 3 1/2, drill and tap the rib and install rifle sights, find out point of aim and it should be ready. I prefer a the right double with double triggers to a single barrel action for survival, easier to switch triggers in an emergency than to switch guns-if a second is available.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Strawman419
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #85587 - 14/09/07 03:30 AM

I think Shackleton has a point, I have some lightfield 3 1/2 inch mag slugs that create close to 4000 foot pounds, and you could have that in a pump that could hold four or more and is very easy to point, with that much power available, I think it makes shotguns a great option, but unless you have a shotgun that can handle the big slugs, a large caliber rifle would be better.

--------------------
"Pray not for lighter burdens, but for stronger backs." T. Roosevelt


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Tatume
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Strawman419]
      #85595 - 14/09/07 06:05 AM

A friend of mine working for the USFWS told me he was issued a 12 ga pump shotgun. He was required to carry the gun loaded with a rubber-bullet load in the chamber and slugs in the magazine. I agree with 3sixbits, and not just in Alaska. Killing bears (other than hunting) in loads of trouble which is well worth avoiding *if possible*. The potential for criminal charges is all too real. Take care, Tom

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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Tatume]
      #85625 - 15/09/07 01:31 AM

I'll defend my premise of the pump being faster than an auto. In my hands, those of a police firearms instructor, and those hands of my students who practised what they were taught; we can clean 6 silouettes in 2 to 2 1/2 seconds at 25 yards. I'd like to see the auto shooter who can do that. When one works the slide of the pump, one brings it back to 'point' when racking it foreward, chambering the next round. It takes practise, due to the timing necessary, but then when possibly faced with life threatening situations, a prudent person practises.
; A hardened round ball of 14 bore (.69 cal.), driven at 1,400fps, will exit an Indian Elephant's head on a broadside shot. It worked in the 1850's and it will work today. While I have never had to use a gun to defend against a charging bear, I am confident that the properly loaded 12 bore will suffice and be amongst the fastest shooting smackers there are. The pump is faster than a double and faster than an auto. One automatically brings the gun to bear with the action of the forend, not having to 'pull' the gun down with 'extra' muscle movements.
: It is quite possible that a lay-zee peason might be able to shoot an auto faster than a pump, but practise with a pump is all that's necessary to cut one's times in half. A slow auto or double can get you killed.
: 3 empties in the air at the same time - piece of cake, and all well aimed shots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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peter
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85650 - 15/09/07 06:36 AM

daryl
im sure you are very good with a pump, but they still are ugly as hell and will never have the balance and feel as a nice SxS, you can bring a M-60 to the forest and that should be abel to kill bears as well, but that wouldent be sporting either.(sorry im rambling its late)
my point being that i had the expirence that it is easyere to teach people to hit and hit good with a well balanced dobbel than with a pump or an auto.(you dont play baseball with a 4"x4" unless you have to).
in the end it is about hitting with your first shot and let that take them down. i dont know shit about bears only that bigger is better and use enough gun.

peter


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: peter]
      #85655 - 15/09/07 08:05 AM

While I had a good double 12 that put the balls where it should, many don't. The single barrel is easier to teach, if my students are any indication of that.
; I-too preferred to hunt with the double. Hunting and protection form big bears are two different matters. Ask my buddies who called in 5 grizzlies when Elk hunting with their long bows. A big boar grizzly stopped within 10 feet of big Dave, looking him over very closely. He thought he was dead and actually prayed for a quick death. Luckily the bears moved off with never identifying the 'boys' well.
: Dave was sitting on his stand at ground height. The bear's head was just a wee bit higher than his. Dave is 6'2" tall. Hmmm, lets see, two shots then reload - Not.
: They no longer bow hunt in the North, here and take their salvation as being a warning.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Shackleton
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85664 - 15/09/07 11:18 AM

I realize that 4-6 shots(depending on pump model) are better than 2, IF you get to use them all. My reasoning behind a double-again, the "right" one-one that puts the holes in the right place and will stand up to hot, hard slugs-is the idea that it would be a life and death issue. It's rare whan the gun's maintained, but I have had pump actions malfunction, whether parts failure or a simple feed jam. All but one case were in old guns that hadn't been maintained properly, bought by me cheaply and fixed after the problems, but there's that slim chance that it could happen in a new gun. I had an action jam shut in a brand new Remington 870 a couple years ago while duck hunting. It onlty happened that once, but I had to disassemble the gun to get the action to open. With a double-trigger SXS you essentially have 2 guns on 1 stock. As long as you don't pull both triggers at once, you'll still have that second shot for a followup.

In an actual hunting situation I'd take a rifle of appropriate caliber over any shotgun but for survival issues I'd still go with the double shotgun-and have some shot loads along as well in case of a "true" survival situation-if lost in unfamiliar forest four or five rounds of No. 4 can keep you from starving to death where a heavy rifle or slug will turn your small game dinner into a stain on the ground.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85686 - 15/09/07 11:33 PM

For overall hunting of griz or browns, I would use the old .375--

As to your story of being charged, living in close proximity to Yellowstone National Park--and as a bow hunter as well, we have also had more than one run in with grizzlies..the most recent of which was last year--my best friend (John) was going around this area on one side and myself on the other--was both carry handguns while John also carries pepper spray--while we each were sneaking along, John heard a woof above him and saw a boar grizzly at about 50 yards feeding on a dead elk..John said he slowly tried to back up while trying to get his hand on his revolver.. the bear charged.. John stated by the time he even got his hand on the holster, unclipped the latch, the bear was 10 feet away snapping his teeth..John froze --the bear slowly walked away,, and once about 25 feet away, he looked at him again, woofed another time and walked back to the dead elk.. give the bear his due, all he was doing was protecting his food---but it could have gone much worse..IT took John quite a bit to even get his wits about him--he said he could hear his heart beating in his ears both before, during and after the encounter..and never had the time to do anything.. it all happened too fast...so one must really proceed cautiously while in these types of situations..

A local photographer was attached late spring this year in my home town.. after 8 surgeries and one less eye, he is still not back to normal--(whatever that means)...

I hunted brown bear in AK a few years back and laughed when I read the article to taking the gun to the outhouse...as that was my experience as well---I was NOT allowed to go outside to the outhouse without taking the camp .375 along--or even if I wanted to do a little fishing close to camp.. had to have the gun on me..no questions.. in this particular camp during the prior years hunt.. a brownie had literally ripped off part of the addition to the cabin, gone inside and helped himself to the canned goods in the kitchen..after done he left a nice "steamy" thank you in the living room..

All in all, however, bears are really, really cool...however they demand a great deal of respect.. give them that and a little common sense..and in most cases you will be alright..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85687 - 15/09/07 11:44 PM

This is my brownie taken in 2001--9'2" squared--taken near Lake Illiamna..



--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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500Nitro
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85690 - 16/09/07 12:04 AM



Ripp

Superb ! Great Pic.

I hope you didn't get it on the way to the outhouse !!!


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #85693 - 16/09/07 02:04 AM

Nice bear, Ripp. A Really nice picture would have been with his head in your lap.
: The camp I guide from, has a double 12 loaded with 575gr. Brenneke's for trouble bears. My own 'camp' gun, when doing gaurd duty for the cook and her kids, was my trusty little .458 2" with 560gr. flat nosed hard cast bullets at 1,860fps. I also had some 350gr. "X" bullets running 2,275fps for backup when guiding. While I would have prefered a 12 pump as noted in above posts, I hadn't worked up RB loads for my 12 at that time. Trouble with rifles, is the slow bolt time between the 'fire for a scare' shot and firing to protect one's hide. One sometimes just doesn't have time to work a bolt. When they want to, bears move like cats. A serious grizzly bear fight is amazing in it's blurr of motion.
: Pumps are still the fastest action - perhaps only for a few who are willing to practise. Most people wait until they've recovered from recoil before they work the trombone - all wrong. Working the action the instant of firing is what brings the gun down out of recoil and back onto target. The eye seemingly never leaves the target. Sights just get in the way at the close ranges necessary.
: Fellow a few years back, only 60 miles West of here, was walking along a trail and was jumped by a smallish 450 pound sow grizzly. She was protecting her moose kill just off the well-worn trail. The moose was not visible from the trail - similar to Ripp's story. The bear hit him from above, knocking the rifle out of his hands, and they rolled around for a spell, her biting him all over. He never heard her coming as is normal with a preditary attack - fast and low, no bluff intended by her as is sometimes normal. He managed to get his belt knife out and after many cuts, the sow moved off and died from having her corotids cut. He managed to crawl out to his truck and drive to town - not sure about his transport. He was lucky. He didn't even know at the time of the attack, that she'd ripped his legs up, he thought only his arms, shoulders and head, yet his thighs were badly bitten and torn. He was very lucky the femoral arteries weren't cut.
: Bear Awareness course I took some time ago, noted to carry a knife with at least an 8" blade. The standard 4" to 4 1/2" will barely reach the corotids and never the heart. It takes 8" to do that. The course also enforced that a 12 bore pump with slugs was the best face to face defence. They were talking about 1-1/4 ounce Fed slugs, not the 1 ounce or smaller sabot bullets which are generally no more effective than handguns. The bullets they shoot generally lack penetration, just like the 1 ounce pure lead Fosters. The 1 ounce and handguns have worked in the past, but the 1-1/4 ounce are better. Solid WW alloy round balls are the best of all.
: In a 12 bore, a Wheel/Weight .715" to .725" (for cylinder chokes) round ball, weighing 530gr., held in a trap wad, petals cut off at 1/4" to 3/8" height, loaded over a heavy field load (Hodgdon's longshot)for 1 1/4oz shot load, running 1,400fps to 1,550fps kicks no harder than a heavy 1-1/4oz duck load and deliveres the same punch as the African 12 bore 7 dram BP 1880's load heaviest of the 12 bore African loads. If recoil means power to you, load the plastic case with 190gr. 2F, cup wad and the round ball. The recoil is quite memorable, but delivers no more power than the light kicking 1-1/4 ounce shot load. Juggling powder charges slightly, along with wads, can give you a very powerful, deeply penetrating load, one that will break both shoulders of a bear or go full length. Either tends to relax them quickly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85706 - 16/09/07 03:33 AM

Interesting side note--after I posted my memo and photo I went to breakfast at one of the local restaurants--picked up the local paper--Bozeman Daily Chronicle--if anyone wants to get on to read the story..anyway--it appears the 2nd bowhunter in a week was hospitalized from a grizzly attack..

The usual scenario--bow hunting--cow calling--sow with cubs come in --he moved to get away and she attacked as she was spooked by his movement--pulled him back out of a tree he was trying to get into.. he played dead after he hit the ground--after a swat or two--she left with her cubs..

The other problem we have in this area is that there has NOT been a Grizzly hunting season in almost 30 years--the grizzlies have lost a lot of their natural fear of man--which has caused a larger than normal incidence of attacks for bow hunters..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85709 - 16/09/07 04:36 AM

Ripp- although we do have grizzly hunts here, the bears still view rifle shots as dinner bells abd wll come to a shot to take over the moose, elk or deer. They, of course, locate camps by smell, then actually dog bow hunters as they head out hunting, sometimes waiting for the hunters to make a kill for them to take over. Happened to a few of the archery fellows from the club I used to frequent. This happens often in the Dunlevy Creek area near Hudson Hope, B.C. This was the same basic area of the two bow hunters who called in the 5 adult bears. I found it interesting that there would be 5 adults in the same area, but it happens there now, more than ever. The same thing occurs around Mackenzie, B.C. One summer and fall season, over 64 grizzlies had to be shot in town. The town had put an electric fence around the town dump so town people could use the dump. The bears, used to fattening up on Mackenzie's garbage, came to town instead, for garbage of course. These days, they just burrow underneath the fence, I'm told. The town shootup taught them a very severe lesson to stay out of town. They do frequent the golf course though, with signs warning of bears frequenting certain holes - makes for an interesting game, eh?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #86121 - 23/09/07 05:23 PM

45-70 loaded with the Core-Bon 350 gr load. Even the 22" barreled Marlin is a pretty good handling gun. Guide gun is just too short IMO.
The only suitable bullet for handloaders that will work through the lever action repeater is the 400 gr Speer and its too soft, or so they claim, for big bears. Most shotgun slugs are too. A handloaded hardened round ball is a better load for a shotgun.
Speer makes a 350gr 45 cal bullet that is hard enough but the bullet is designed for the 458 and will not feed though the Marlin seated to the cannelure.
Second choice would be a hard cast bullet of about 400 gr. at 1750fps or so. RCBS makes a GC bullet that would work OK for this.

Dan


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gator
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #90658 - 05/12/07 01:49 PM

well if you whole idea is to stop it and it's a nice sunny day a new auto shot gun, that'll unload 12 ronds in 1.7 seconds would work ... not very sporting but it would work.

but most people I know that guide up there use a 45/70 or a 444 marlin.


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Nakihunter
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: gator]
      #90678 - 05/12/07 04:36 PM

If anyone is intersted, I got pics from my last guide in BC - of a 9 yer old girl who shot the new World recod brown bear - 11ft 9 inches & 1,800 lbs with skull of more than 33 inches! This was shot in Alaska last year & it was the kid's first bear hunt!! Should I post the pics here or is it old news???

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #90694 - 06/12/07 01:53 AM

Further to Dan's post, if you shorten .45/70 brass to 2", the Speer 350gr. bullet can be used. Shortening the brass allows crimping in the small groove and gives proper ctg. length for feeding in the Marlins. I'm now loading the 350gr. Speers in my .458 2" bolt gun for hunting though as yet, I haven't shot anything with them. They have jackets over .060" thick and should be very good penetrators and since they are designed for the .458 mag., are supposed to need 1,900fps for expansion, they should make super bear bullets for close range. The Marlin 22" barrel can get about 2,100fps (or more) with them and that's just great. I-too have difficulty with the 'guide' gun's short barrels, but a buddies stainless .45/70 18-1/2" guide gun gets 2,007fps with 400gr. Barnes flat noses - 49.0gr. Reloader #7, straight out of Speer's book and no pressure signs at all.
; My own preference for a camp gun is a 12 bore with solid round balls loaded to 1,550fps, but usually leave it at home and have only the .458 in camp. For bears in camp, I have 560gr. cast bullets loaded to 1,850fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #90771 - 06/12/07 04:00 PM

Quote:

a buddies stainless .45/70 18-1/2" guide gun gets 2,007fps with 400gr. Barnes flat noses




I have a treasured Marlin 1895 and have killed black bear, deer and one big mean range cow that came after me, all using a load of 402 grain cast hollowpoint at 1640 fps so I know a bit of what I'm saying when I say I think I'd rather throw myself on the mercy of a surly, maneating grizzbar than touch off one of them there loads from that thing.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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