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DPhillips
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Loc: Alaska
Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #75223 - 01/04/07 01:38 PM

Blain,
Do a search for Phil Shoemaker, or visit Wolfe Publishing's website for more about Phil's credentials. He knows bears, better than most I suspect. We all make our own conclusions based on our own personal experiences, but it never hurts to listen to those that make their living as professional hunters and spend most of their life in the bear's kitchen, more than not.

My own field experiences are along Alaska's gulf coast, though well east of Phil's area. Until recently, I was in the field more than at home during Alaska's spring, summer and fall. I'll take large caliber rifle firing heavy for caliber premium bullets any day over a slug loaded shotgun.

As I stated before, I do not know one single guide here in Alaska that chooses to carry a slug or buckshot loaded shotgun for backup of his clients. That should mean something. I've carried both, I've even carried a handgun. I've seen the effect of all three on ill-tempered bears at close range. A heavy rifle has been the most effective in all instances that I have observed.

There are some occasions where I still pack a handgun instead of a long gun, but there are no instances where I favor a shotgun over a rifle.

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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #75229 - 01/04/07 05:58 PM

Watching the hunter, after his first shot, it looks like he has a feeding problem with his rifle.

Later after his second shot he looks like he is working on the action and maybe picking up a live round off the ground and reloading his rifle with it.

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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #75234 - 01/04/07 10:49 PM

Agreed--

Makes the case for an Alaskan Double doesn't it??

An "Alaskan" 470NE or 450/400 would have may 'em feel a bit better with a charging Brown bear I bet!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #75408 - 03/04/07 07:15 AM

Quote:

Blain,
Do a search for Phil Shoemaker, or visit Wolfe Publishing's website for more about Phil's credentials. He knows bears, better than most I suspect. We all make our own conclusions based on our own personal experiences, but it never hurts to listen to those that make their living as professional hunters and spend most of their life in the bear's kitchen, more than not.

My own field experiences are along Alaska's gulf coast, though well east of Phil's area. Until recently, I was in the field more than at home during Alaska's spring, summer and fall. I'll take large caliber rifle firing heavy for caliber premium bullets any day over a slug loaded shotgun.

As I stated before, I do not know one single guide here in Alaska that chooses to carry a slug or buckshot loaded shotgun for backup of his clients. That should mean something. I've carried both, I've even carried a handgun. I've seen the effect of all three on ill-tempered bears at close range. A heavy rifle has been the most effective in all instances that I have observed.

There are some occasions where I still pack a handgun instead of a long gun, but there are no instances where I favor a shotgun over a rifle.



I'm sure he knows his stuff...

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75409 - 03/04/07 07:20 AM


Blain,
Phil knows what he is talking about. He makes a better part of his living guiding bear hunters in Alaska. So he has probably faced down more than one charge. Also he writes for some of the most popular publications. He is one of the few people writing that can be trust to tell it the way it is.

If you can get ahold of it you might like the article he wrote called "A Rigby in the Outhouse". It is humorous but about where they had to keep a rifle in their outhouse because they live in bear country and could get trapped there.



Yup he sure does. Wish he would share that knowledge with the rest of us. I'd like to hear his stories.

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75413 - 03/04/07 08:51 AM

I have "re-thunk-it" and if given the choice of a medium DR (9.3x74 or 375Flanged) vs a shotgun to accompany me on a walk through bear country, I would choose the DR.

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COLDSTEEL
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #75954 - 09/04/07 01:13 AM

If I had asked the question, I'd have hoped 458 WIN would have posted a reply. There are few, if any, more qualified to address the subject.

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tinker
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #75960 - 09/04/07 02:52 AM

I too think it'd be great to hear the reply.
Perhaps he's out hunting..?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: tinker]
      #76016 - 09/04/07 02:32 PM

Quote:

I too think it'd be great to hear the reply.
Perhaps he's out hunting..?
--Tinker


I suspect he is now. If not, he's probably getting getting everything ready to head out.

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475Guy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76032 - 10/04/07 01:37 AM

Since this comes up on a regular basis, I have one question. Has anyone used a shotgun, with whatever load, in successful defense against a BIG bear? Is it documented and not an urban legend? No HEARSAY BS, please.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #76515 - 14/04/07 11:56 PM

Daryl S,you are right on the money.
Rem 870 and round ball or brenekke.
But heck we only have the odd drop bear around here.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (15/04/07 12:14 AM)

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AdamTayler
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #76816 - 18/04/07 03:17 AM

I use a scoped bolt action when hunting bears, but I always take my open sighted Rem 870 with slugs on my trips as well. It is a lot easier to handle in the thick stuff after the shooting has stopped. I believe a lever action 45/70 with open sights would work as well, so use what you are most comfortable with. For me, it is the 870. In open country, the shotgun would be redundant IMO.

Here's a quote from "Bear Hunting in Alaska" by Tony Russ, pp 272-273: "If you do have to shoot a bear at close range, be prepared. As Keith Johnson, a notable brown bear guide, says, "...any pistol is a poor weapon against a brown bear." (Unpredictable Giants). Stopping an attacking brown bear at close range with the most powerful handguns made is difficult even in the most expert hands. Twelve-guage shot guns may be slightly better weapons for this purpose, but their soft slugs don't penetrate as well as dangerous-game bullets from a heavy calibre rifle. Bear hunters should be carrying a heavy calibre rifle with a well contructed bullet anyway, and that is what you would want to use to stop an attacking brown bear"

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #76818 - 18/04/07 03:26 AM

Adam,
Careful quoting T. Russ, he also recommends against using Mauser actioned rifles "because they are prone to jam". He does have some odd ideas...

While I agree with your position, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the name mentioned is to quit reading.

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AdamTayler
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76820 - 18/04/07 03:54 AM

Quote:

Adam,
Careful quoting T. Russ, he also recommends against using Mauser actioned rifles "because they are prone to jam". He does have some odd ideas...

While I agree with your position, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the name mentioned is to quit reading.



Yes Dave, I read that as well and I do not agree with it either. I read his book to see if I could learn any tricks or tips, and compare my experiences with his. As you could tell, my opinion is at the top of my post, and Tony's is at the bottom. No need to stop reading, just skip a few lines.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #76821 - 18/04/07 04:02 AM

I recall reading an article some years ago whereby the author gave advice to wouldbe hunters using large calibre pistols and his sagely words were roughly as follows...
in the event that you are going take a pistol into the field for brown bear, be certain to first file off the front sight so that it is completely flush with the barrel, in this manner it wont hurt nearly as much when the bear shoves it up your ass...."
struck me as good instruction


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76854 - 18/04/07 02:29 PM

Well, large bore handguns are better than nothing. And by nothing I mean a rifle or shotgun that you don't have in your hands or is leaning up against a tree out of reach or slung on your back. Ever tried fishing with a rifle or shotgun in a position where you can access it if needed at a moments notice? Ever tried to carry one while working a survey crew with a backpack loaded with instruments and supplies while your hands are full of bars and diggers?

Sometimes the only thing that does make sense is not the most effective, but the most accessible.

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PTinMT
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76858 - 18/04/07 03:48 PM

Well, you will dance with what brung' you. A rifle leaning up against a tree while you are gutting an elk north of Yellowstone is of little use. Rifle shots are dinner bells to the grizz around here and though a handgun is a poor substitute for my 9.3x62, the fact that it never leaves my side might mean the difference between just being maimed and being dead.

I've guided in Yellowstone National Park and the Park service takes a dim view of anything except bear spray. I can say with some pride that I've never had to use it, I always managed to avoid any confrontations with bears or resolve them at a safe distance. It is far better to never get into trouble than to get out of it. The problem is that the later leaves you with no good stories.

Back up? Phil and the rest of the guides that regularly walk up to large bears with the intent of doing them harm trump anything anyone else might say for me. Back up rifles would start with my 9.3x62 and go up I'd think (As I recall Phil carried one for back up in one of his articles). I am very familiar with that rifle so it would be my first choise. I've seen a 286gr NP go length wise through an elk and rip it to shreads inside. I think it would be a good starting point. I've shot elk and a black bear with a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 with 350gr slugs, works well. Might be a good choise for someone who uses a lever gun a lot. Handles nice, but I found the recoil too much with any useful load.

Best back up? No back up. Good first shot. Stay alert. Be prepared for and expect the worst and you'll be surprised how often it turns out you have no good stories.

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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #76882 - 18/04/07 09:44 PM

DPhillips...as I recall the advice was for those hunting bear expressly with a pistol and I do agree with you in that you should use what you have at your disposal hell a stick in the eye of the attacker still beats "hey bear go away"

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76929 - 19/04/07 03:54 AM

Probably right, but he does mention fishermen and stopping a bear attack. Attacks can occur during any season. Very seldom am I unarmed in bear country, no matter the activity. I do admit to not being armed while wood cutting though, unless you consider a chainsaw a weapon...

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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #79559 - 29/05/07 12:25 PM


How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS



If I came across as condescending in any way I apologize. I simply was giving my opinion to the question. I don't usually get on this forum as I am seldom near a computor fast enough. Plus I dislike the confrontive attitude displayed by some who do post.
My homestead on the Alaska Peninsula is situated in one of the densest populations of Brown Bears in the state and my clients have taken well over a hundred Brown Bears. I have been forced to shoot quite a few but only a couple have actually come close to getting me. My choice of the 458 is based on a number of factors. I have personally killed big bears with everything from the 30-06 to the 9.3x62, 9.5x62, 375 H&H , 416, 458 and 505 Gibbs. I have used Hornady, Nosler Partitions, GS, Barnes X, Woodleighs, Speer Grand Slams, Swifts, North Forks and Kodiaks.
Although it's not a shot I recommed to clients, my favorite shot is high, directly on the point of the shoulder - if the bear is at all broadside. Even on charging bears I try to break the spine between the shoulders .

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Plains99
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #79620 - 31/05/07 02:08 AM

When I was up there, I bought and carried a used Mossberg 500 smooth bore slug gun loaded with 1 1/4oz Hevi-shot rifled slugs mainly on the advice of others. Never had to use it or even thought about using it... but I was advised to use slugs rather than buckshot. Since then the 500 has remained my main camp gun. It is light, powerful,has done very well on feral hogs and shoots both slugs and shot effectively. I like it and consider it far more flexible for defense than a rifle.

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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Plains99]
      #79628 - 31/05/07 04:33 AM

I agree that a 12 guage shotgun is the most versatile, flexible weapon for protection from most everything -including bears. they give you the option of carrying naoise making cracker shells, flares, rubber pellets and light bird shot for less than lethal use and the very best, deep penetrating slugs should deter all but the most determained, largest bruins, and even then I'll bet it could be done.
If we are discussing stopping a wounded bear, that is attacking, then I still recommend a big bore rifle.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #79633 - 31/05/07 05:40 AM

My wife shot a wild pig, and I have shot a deer and a wild pig with a slug.
I was not too terribly impressed.

I much prefer a rifle.

I would rather have my Winchester 44 Mag Trapper, with proper bullets, than any shotgun.

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Plains99
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79687 - 31/05/07 11:49 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with the rifle for stopping a charging bear. If I was going to be in really dangerous bear country I'd be packing my .458 as well... but since I haven't been, I don't know about cartridges. I imagine a 500-grain Hornady Interbond would work for serious bear stopping better than a solid???
Handguns. I have nothing against them and I often carry a .45 Colt in the field for backup to muzzleloaders... but I'd much rather carry a carbine or a shotgun. Seriously, I'd rather have a slung .30-30 lever action carbine in dangerous country than a handgun.

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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #80420 - 12/06/07 12:22 PM

I too want to know where this "12 gauge Bear Stopper" myth came from. Where are the hordes of "Alaskans" who are always referred to who have stopped bear at chaw-spitting distance with a shotgun?

I have never hunted big bear but I have shot several {8} blackies of the local ilk, having also been in on the running of many with hounds {having them outrun many hounds also, their endurance is phenomenal}. After my experiences watching them take bullets and cover ground, I am duly impressed.

Only one of my bear went truly sour, but it very, I having shot it 6 times with a .44 mag revolver. All shots would have been lethal by themselves in time. These bullets demonstrated zero stopping effect {no CNS hit}. Three of those shots were fired with the muzzle stuck into the hair of the critter's chest. Vitals were mush but that bear still fought the dogs and me for maybe 2 minutes {I never stopped to take a close look at my watch}. My 13-year-old son put the last round in it, jumping over my shoulder and stuffing the thing with his 7x57R. Others were nearby and we all stood heaving and shaking after the affair was done. A big bear would have bit me in half.

Another sow I shot fell out of the tree after taking a 402 grain bullet from my .45-70 through the chest from below, the bullet exiting between her shoulders above. She hit the ground after a 25 or so foot fall and got up, shook a bit and looked for a dog to eat. I shot her again twice.

All my other bear were killed in a straightforward way without much drama so I am metaphysically certain bear can be KILLED with light calibers. I killed them with .30-30, .303, 7.62x54R, 9.3x57 and the .45-70. I am not going to say it takes a heavy rifle to kill bear, even big bear.

In addition, I have also shot many slugs into various test media. Penetration is generally poor and recovered Foster slugs typically look like donuts complete with center hole and even the mighty Brenneke and Aquila slugs perform in no way comparably to a heavy rifle. WOLFE publishing printed an interesting report put together by the Forest Service IIRC comparing various rifles and the shotgun for bear stopping some years ago. If anybody cares enough I'd be happy to dig around and find it and cite the Volume.

I interviewed the great Harold Johnson {creator of the .450 AK} shortly before his death and he told me many stories that only serve to convince me.

After my own experiences with live bear and ballistic media, I believe a guy would be making a very, very serious mistake to choose a shotgun over a heavy rifle if a fight with a big bear was even a remote possibility.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (12/06/07 02:05 PM)

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