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Big Bores and Brown Bears
      #370889 - 29/10/22 08:05 PM


Big Bores and Brown Bears
Perspective from an Alaska Master Guide

other By: Phil Shoemaker | October, 22

Until the development of smokeless powder, the only means by which a hunter using black powder and soft, lead projectiles could be guaranteed adequate performance on the largest and most dangerous game was to increase the bore size, powder charge and weight of the projectile. Effective large-bore rifles of the era, especially those in Africa, were unbelievably massive by today’s standards; 12-bore rifles were considered small, and serious hunters toted 8-, 4- and even 2-bore rifles.

Heavy doubles, like this Zoli .450/.400, retain a small but faithful following in Alaska.Heavy doubles, like this Zoli .450/.400, retain a small but faithful following in Alaska.
The concurrent development of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets in the late nineteenth century, however, changed the paradigm. Hunters discovered that long, jacketed, smallbore projectiles could be driven fast enough to reliably penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on even the largest game. At the time the term “bore” referred to the number of round, lead balls of a certain diameter that could be produced by a pound of lead, but as actual “bore” rifles began to fade, the term was used simply as a means of arbitrarily grouping calibers.

During the black-powder era, the only way to assure adequate performance on the largest dangerous game was to increase bore size, powder charge and bullet weight.During the black-powder era, the only way to assure adequate performance on the largest dangerous game was to increase bore size, powder charge and bullet weight.
Notable hunters of the era, like W.D.M. Bell, F.C. Selous, Charles Sheldon, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and Andrew Stone, were quick to adopt the new technology and demonstrably proved the deadly effectiveness of smaller calibers. Adventurers and wilderness hunters were highly appreciative of the fact that rifles could be built slimmer and lighter, and with less recoil and flatter trajectories, game could be reliably taken at longer ranges.

Over a century later, what are now referred to as smallbore rifles dominate the market. With modern powders and stout, bonded-core and homogenous projectiles, bore size is increasingly becoming less and less important. A great many rural Alaskan hunters now think nothing of using their .223 Remingtons on deer, caribou and even moose. What we now consider the mid-bores, like the .243 Winchester, .25-06 Remington, 6.5x55 and .270 Winchester, can safely be pressed into service when hunting virtually any game in the state. One trapper I know, who lives in the foothills of the Brooks Range, has used a .22-250 Remington for the past 25 years on everything from wolves and caribou to moose and grizzly bears.

The most popular round in the state, both past and present, has been the .30-06. It was a ubiquitous favorite of generations of territorial hunters, guides and trappers. Territorial wardens and government hunters like Hosea Sarber and Jay Williams used theirs to sort out numerous problem brown and grizzly bears during the early portion of the century, and the legendary Kodiak brown bear guides Bill Pinnel and Morris Talifson recommend their bear hunters bring a .30-06 with 220-grain bullets. In 1952 Roy Lindsley used one when he killed the world’s record brown bear on Kodiak Island.
Until well after the advent of smokeless powder and the introduction of bolt-action rifles, large-bore Winchester rifles, like this 1886 (top) and 1873 (bottom), were the most popular rifles in Alaska.Until well after the advent of smokeless powder and the introduction of bolt-action rifles, large-bore Winchester rifles, like this 1886 (top) and 1873 (bottom), were the most popular rifles in Alaska.

The close of World War II brought an influx of hunters to the Alaskan territory who, after the sacrifices and deprivations of war, were desirous of new and modern goods. Although introduced at the beginning of the war, the Winchester Model 70 was the most modern rifle available and quickly earned a reputation as “the rifleman’s rifle.” Offered in a number of useful calibers, it was the large and seductively powerful .375 H&H that made it especially attractive to Alaskans. After years of tracking massive brown bears into thick cover with smaller bores, Kodiak guides like Pinnel and Talifson were quick to adopt the .375 H&H Model 70, and it was not long until it became the standard by which all other bear rifles were judged – at least all bolt-action rifles.

All these cartridges offer similar penetration and the ability to kill, but the immediate impact of the larger bores gives a more decisive edge (left to right): .30-06, Nosler 220-grain Partition; .416 Remington Magnum, Hornady 400-grain InterBond; .458 Winchester, Hornady 500-grain InterBond; .505 Gibbs, Barnes 570-grain TSX; and .600 Overkill, 900-grain Woodleigh.All these cartridges offer similar penetration and the ability to kill, but the immediate impact of the larger bores gives a more decisive edge (left to right): .30-06, Nosler 220-grain Partition; .416 Remington Magnum, Hornady 400-grain InterBond; .458 Winchester, Hornady 500-grain InterBond; .505 Gibbs, Barnes 570-grain TSX; and .600 Overkill, 900-grain Woodleigh.
Over on the nearby Kenai Peninsula, Harold Johnson, a gun builder from Cooper Landing, was also looking for a little more bear stopping power than he was currently getting in his old Winchester Model 86 .45-70. After corresponding with gun writer Elmer Keith, he decided to neck up and expand the .348 Winchester case to .45 caliber. Bill Fuller, a machinist friend, ground him a reamer, and barrel maker John Buhmiller sent him a barrel. Harold christened his round the .450 Alaskan and settled on a load of 51.5 grains of IMR-4198 behind a .032-inch copper jacketed, 400-grain Barnes bullet. Although never built in any large numbers, the .450 Alaskan earned a solid reputation as a first-rate bear stopper and developed a small but vocal cult following. Reloading data, obtained from the first edition of Wolfe Publishing’s Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges shows that while it is possible to reach 2,100 fps with 400-grain bullets, 2,000 fps is a more realistic endeavor.

Like most avid rifle loonies, Harold continued experimenting with large bores, and when a client showed up one day with a surplus .50 BMG barrel, his wheels immediately be­gan turning. He cut and turned it down to fit one of his original .50-110 Model 86 Winchesters. At that time Alaska was flooded with military surplus items, and Harold had no trouble obtaining 750-grain, boat-tail, .50-caliber machine gun bullets that he chopped off behind the ogive. When reversed, they resulted in a tough, deep-penetrating and slick-feeding, 450-grain truncated cone bullet, and the resultant .50 Alaskan became Harold’s favorite bear stopper.

The famous Kodiak guide Bill Pinnel’s surplus M-88 commission 8mm rifle that he used on Kodiak bears until re- placing the M-88 with a Winchester Model 70 .375 H&H.The famous Kodiak guide Bill Pinnel’s surplus M-88 commission 8mm rifle that he used on Kodiak bears until re- placing the M-88 with a Winchester Model 70 .375 H&H.
Due in no small part to the state’s healthy population of grizzlies and brown bears, large-bore lever actions remain a popular item in our 49th state. With stoutly loaded Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon or Grizzly ammunition, the Winchester/Brown- ­ing Model 86 and Marlin Model 95 .45-70 guide rifles are the modern equivalent of Harold’s .450 Alaskan rifles. If more power and punch are desired, the .475 Turnbull in Browning and Winchester Model 86 and Model 71 rifles, modified by Doug Turnbull, offer the same serious big-bore performance as did Harold’s .500.

By 1958, a year before Alaska reached statehood, Winchester officially acknowledged the lure of powerfully large, big-bore rifles in the last frontier. The company introduced an entirely new, belted .338 Winchester Magnum round in a new “Alaskan” version of the Model 70. Although history has proven it a sound concept, the .375 H&H had more than a decade’s head start, and initial sales of the .338 were slow. Demand for the new magnum round remained steady however, and as reports from the field trickled in, the .338 Winchester eventually earned its place as the singularly most popular round among guides and those who routinely roamed brown bear country.

Today, with widespread Internet access and mega sporting goods stores like Cabela’s, Bass Pro and Sportsman’s Warehouse, Alaskans have the same access to firearms as anywhere else in the lower 48 states. It is not uncommon to find a teacher in Sitka shooting a .338 Lapua Magnum, a guide in Wasilla with a .460 Weatherby Magnum or a trapper in Two Rivers with a .358 Norma Magnum. Although the .30-06 manages to maintain a tenuous grasp as the most popular cartridge in the state, the .223 Remington and the various .300s are close behind in terms of sales. Although the .338 has surpassed the .375 H&H in overall popularity, the .375 Ruger appears to be rapidly supplanting both as the guide’s choice. Its combination of value, portability and reliability, coupled with flat trajectory and raw power is difficult to beat.
Phil’s favorite brown bear rifle for the past three decades is a .458 Winchester Magnum.Phil’s favorite brown bear rifle for the past three decades is a .458 Winchester Magnum.

There are still a few of us graybeards left in the state, however, who are unwilling to sacrifice the marginal advantage offered by our .416s and .458s. When dealing with dangerous game as large, impressively quick and intelligent as brown bears, any advantage can mean the difference between hiring a taxidermist or a surgeon. As anyone who has experience in mortal combat or even a dust-up on the school yard can tell you, stunning or dropping your adversary a fraction of a second quicker or keeping them down a second longer can be a tremendous advantage. It is the best I can offer to describe the elusive big-bore “knockdown power” that hunters, soldiers and ballisticians have striven so long to quantify, and the reason for the continual fas­ci­nation of powerful, large-bore rifles.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/big-bores-and-brown-bears

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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458Win
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: NitroX]
      #374652 - 01/03/23 05:40 PM

Over the last 43 that I have been guiding bear hunters in Alaska I have always been building and trying different actions and calibers and since I wrote that piece I have become fond of the 9.3x62 and the 416 Ruger. I cant say I have noticed any difference in killing power between the 9.3 and the 375 (Ruger or H&H) and the 416 Ruger falls directly between the 375 & the 458. But the more I try and use other big bores, the more impressed I still am with the standard 458 when dealing with wounded bears

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
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DarylS
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #374656 - 02/03/23 04:16 AM

The smaller bores begin to impress more & more as the recoil of the larger bores starts to "wear" on the old bones & what used to pass as muscle tissue.
I'm finding I like my old 6.5's & the '06 more and more. But then, I don't hunt grizzlies, coastal or interior, nor do I guide any more.
Then, it was a .458 2" for backup, more often than not, a Barnes 400gr. at 2,150fps, my "old" standby load of 51gr. IMR4198. I did
pack the 400gr. at 2,450fps for a couple years, in a different chambering.

--------------------
Daryl


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: DarylS]
      #374665 - 02/03/23 06:43 PM

Phil, thanks for responding to your own article.

I think it is a no brainer a .458 Win Mag is an ideal specialist cartridge for brown bear. Anything capable of downing an elephant should work on anything else. But perhaps a specialist cartridge for bear and for the guide? Would one choose a .458 for moose, elk, caribou?

Phil, what projectiles would you choose for bear in a.458, .416,375,9.3?

A reason the .400s and .375s exist is the versatility. And less recoil.

And the 9.3x62 has got to be one of the most versatile medium bores of modern times. It fits in the group of great cartridges, the .318 aWR, the .350s, the .338s, other 9.3s, .360s, and .375s. All using heavy SD bullets in the 250 gr to 300 gr range.

My comments from my "vast" North American hunting experience of zero! ChatGPT has nothing on me!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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458Win
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: NitroX]
      #374931 - 08/03/23 05:09 AM

Over the past 44 years I have been guiding I tried numerous rifles, calibers and bullets. Mostly because I am curious and also because after writing for hunting and shooting magazines I had companies wanting me to try, and tout, their products.
But ever since I started carrying the 458 the easiest ammo to get was the 500 gr Hornady soft nose and it has always worked perfectly . I used the newest steel jacketed DGX loads in Zimbabwe and they worked just as well on Cape buffalo as they do in our big bears; which are actually similar in size to buffalo.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #374933 - 08/03/23 05:55 AM

Interesting topic.

I have never shot a bear, nor do I want to, but I was there several times when it happened. Back then in the nineties I often hunted in Siberia and in the north-east Part of Russia, and the cartridge 9,3x64 was used by the majority of us and above all. The bears were shot well with it.

As a supporter of the use of big bores for hunting DG and big game, I am particularly pleased with your posts when you speaks of the clear advantages of the big caliber cartridges , a topic that is always so controversially discussed when it comes to hunting big game in Africa.


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DarylS
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #374949 - 08/03/23 02:30 PM

Largest bear I have shot, was a 6' old dry sorehead of a sow black bear. Big enough. I used a .458 2" with 400gr. Barnes SP @ 2,150fps, through the melon sideways - head hit the ground first, then the rest of her. It was quite dramatic. 50yard shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: NitroX]
      #374950 - 08/03/23 02:33 PM

Quote:

Phil, thanks for responding to your own article.

I think it is a no brainer a .458 Win Mag is an ideal specialist cartridge for brown bear. Anything capable of downing an elephant should work on anything else. But perhaps a specialist cartridge for bear and for the guide? Would one choose a .458 for moose, elk, caribou?

Phil, what projectiles would you choose for bear in a.458, .416,375,9.3?

A reason the .400s and .375s exist is the versatility. And less recoil.

And the 9.3x62 has got to be one of the most versatile medium bores of modern times. It fits in the group of great cartridges, the .318 aWR, the .350s, the .338s, other 9.3s, .360s, and .375s. All using heavy SD bullets in the 250 gr to 300 gr range.

My comments from my "vast" North American hunting experience of zero! ChatGPT has nothing on me!




The late Finn Agaard was very "up" on the 9.3x62. He noted it killed as well as his .375H&H.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: DarylS]
      #374955 - 08/03/23 06:08 PM

I also did not notice any particular difference in the effect of the cartridges 9,3x74R, similar to the cartridge 9,3x62 that I have never used, 9,3x64 and 375 H&H Magnum on various game species. The clear advantage of the other two cartridges to the 9,3x74R or 9,3x62 is the better external ballistics, that make possible shooting at greater distances.

I have shot several game with these three cartridges, especially Wapitis and moose deers with the cartridge 9,3x64 and Buffaloes with the cartridges 9,3x74R and 375 H&H Magnum. All of these cartridges are, in my humble experience, very suitable for heavy game, but the lower limit when it comes to hunting big game.


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Rule303
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #374959 - 08/03/23 08:17 PM

I have not hunted bears but have taken a Cape buff and 2 Elephants all with a 416 Rigby and Woodleigh 400grain Hydros. No complaints from me of the animals. So not a large selection to base opinions on. I am of the mind that with Dangerous Game the largest and most powerful cartridge you can handle reliably is the one to use with a very good stout soft nose or some thing similar to the Hydros or solid with a decent size metplat.

However I hear a lot of people say the 9.3X62 is as good as a 375H&H. Well if that is the case so is a 358Norma Mag. Reasoning: The difference between the 358 Norma and the 375H&H are almost identical so then a 358 Norma must be as good as a 9.3X62 and if the 9.3X62 is as good as a 375H&H then so must the 358Norma.

There is a bloke who manages a Station on Cape York Peninsular. He shoots more pigs and wild cattle than most and uses 9.3X62, 375 H&H, 458 Win and others. His view is the 9.3 is a bloody good round but it is not a 375H&H.

Now if somebody said to me a 9.3X64 is as good as a 375H&H I would not argue with them.


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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: Rule303]
      #374961 - 08/03/23 09:11 PM

Quote:

...

Now if somebody said to me a 9.3X64 is as good as a 375H&H I would not argue with them.





The cartridges 9,3x62 and 9,3x64 are loaded with the same bullets. I think that's why only the shooting distance makes a noticeable difference in effect.

I also believe that the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum is often more impressive because of its size than because of its effect on game. The aura with which it is enveloped certainly also plays a role.


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Rule303
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #374990 - 09/03/23 11:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...

Now if somebody said to me a 9.3X64 is as good as a 375H&H I would not argue with them.





The cartridges 9,3x62 and 9,3x64 are loaded with the same bullets. I think that's why only the shooting distance makes a noticeable difference in effect.

I also believe that the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum is often more impressive because of its size than because of its effect on game. The aura with which it is enveloped certainly also plays a role.




The 9.3X64 when loaded properly is closer to the 375H&H than the X62. Now going by that bloke I mentioned on Cap Yorke the difference between the effectiveness of the 9.3X62 and the 375H&H is noticeable. Given that a bullet from a X64 would have more kentic energy on impact I would think it would 1) penetrate further 2) open up a bit more and have a slightly wider wound channel then coming out of a X62.

I do not doubt the X62 performance, but a X64 would be better as would a 375H&H. On the plus side for the X62 is you do not need a magnum length action so should be cheaper than a 375H&H with near equal performance. If a non magnum action is wanted then why not get a 375Ruger......best of both worlds.


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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: Rule303]
      #374992 - 09/03/23 11:58 AM

Ballistics and how they work on the game with various bullets and bullet weights means more than paper ballistics.

Yes, on paper the 9.3x64 is very much closer & almost identical to the .375H&H.
As long as the bullets used are up to the job, then identical ballistics should show identical results. It's up to the bullet used in the comparison.

--------------------
Daryl


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Rod4861
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: DarylS]
      #375004 - 09/03/23 08:07 PM

I’ve only ever shot one brown bear…but I’ve had 3x tags…..which gave me plenty of time to chat with my guides while glassing for bears.

My first 2 hunts were in the Alaska Range/ Little Delta area. I took a Blaser R8 with Federal factory 180 partitions. First hunt never saw a single bear. But I realised that if I had have seen a bear then I’d probably have to shoot him at somewhere around 200 yards. If I was lucky then maybe I’d get within 100 yards. I’d set myself a maximum range of no more than 250 yards. I now understood why the guides liked to recommend 300 Win Mag or bigger.

3 years later I hunted the same area with the same rifle. Saw just one legal bear. I could have shot him at about 150 yards. He was small, probably about 6’. I passed him up. Never saw another legal bear.

Next year, Spring hunt on the Alaska peninsula. Same R8 but with the 9.3 x 62 barrel. Guide carried a .416 Rigby. Same guide as for my 2nd hunt. Hadn’t seen him carry the.416 until that hunt. I asked him why. The bears are bigger around here…was his response. Saw several big bears and climbed enough mountains that I thought I was hunting sheep. Finally killed my bear with a 60 yard shot. First shot made him awfully sick. Emptied the magazine and he was dead. Not more than a metre from where I first shot him.

So….if I was a guide I’d probably be carrying a 375 H&H for interior bears and then for coastal bears….well a .416 Rigby or at the very least a 375 H&H.

If I was to go back for another hunt…I’d probably take my 30/06 for an interior bear….and just accept that I’m not going to do any longer range shooting.

For another coastal bear hunt. I’d happily take the same rifle again in 9.3 x 62. I would not take my.416 Rigby or anything of similar weight. I just don’t want to have to lug a cannon up and down hills, while pushing through alders and that devils club crap.

In my opinion, 9.3 x 62 is not a 375 H&H . But it’s close enough that anything shot with either wouldn’t be able to pick the difference.

Rod

Edited by Rod4861 (10/03/23 04:04 PM)


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500Boswell
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: Rod4861]
      #375007 - 09/03/23 08:52 PM

I would like to get a Grizzly [fat chance] but would use a 378 WBY if I did !

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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 500Boswell]
      #375008 - 09/03/23 10:09 PM

The cartridge 378 WBY-Magnum is also loaded with the same bullets as the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum, and because of its high muzzle velocity allows even more shots at longer range than the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum. I don't know if the cartridge 378 WBY-Magnum is better for shorter distances compared to the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #375009 - 10/03/23 12:36 AM

Rach to their own. But I don't see a point to a long range big bore sporting hunting rifle. I've never seen why anyone would suffer the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum? Moving up to a 400 or .450 or .500 is more effective for heavier recoil.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: NitroX]
      #375016 - 10/03/23 03:41 AM

It always depends on what you mean by long range.

In the case of big game hunting, one can talk about long range from 50 yards to 100 yards and above. So it's not bad to have a reserve in case that not all goes as hoped and you have to shoot at longer distance on a big game.


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458Win
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #375096 - 13/03/23 12:47 PM

Bullet construction and shot placement ALWAYS TRUMP “power”. And I don’t care who you are, long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement !

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #375099 - 13/03/23 04:08 PM

Quote:

It always depends on what you mean by long range.

In the case of big game hunting, one can talk about long range from 50 yards to 100 yards and above. So it's not bad to have a reserve in case that not all goes as hoped and you have to shoot at longer distance on a big game.




More likely because of many flinching from using .460 and .378 Weatherby Magnums ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #375109 - 13/03/23 09:38 PM

Quote:

Bullet construction and shot placement ALWAYS TRUMP “power”. And I don’t care who you are, long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement !




I would not say always, but it's right that long range shooting is associated with risks.

We don't want to argue about long range shooting while hunting in general since it is not the topic and rather a North American matter than a European one.

Long range shooting must in our case, meant hunting DG and big game, bears including, only be reserved for extreme situations.

The first shot should certainly not be placed at unusual distances, but if, for example, an wounded game is being tracked, a lot is allowed and sometimes an shot at long distance with an big bore rifle on a big game, as far as one is able to do that with such weapons.


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458Win
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #375123 - 14/03/23 03:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Bullet construction and shot placement ALWAYS TRUMP “power”. And I don’t care who you are, long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement !




I would not say always, but it's right that long range shooting is associated with risks.

We don't want to argue about long range shooting while hunting in general since it is not the topic and rather a North American matter than a European one.

Long range shooting must in our case, meant hunting DG and big game, bears including, only be reserved for extreme situations.

The first shot should certainly not be placed at unusual distances, but if, for example, an wounded game is being tracked, a lot is allowed and sometimes an shot at long distance with an big bore rifle on a big game, as far as one is able to do that with such weapons.




When shooting any weapon, the size of the groups open up larger and larger as distances increase. That, along with wind, temperatures, angles and numerous other details also increase the shooters errors.
I will stick with my original statement that “ long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement”

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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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458Win
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Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #375124 - 14/03/23 03:40 PM

Although to be fair, I have seen very few hunters who could shoot tight groups when under the stress of a bear charge 😁

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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grandveneur
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #375129 - 14/03/23 10:17 PM

Quote:

...

I will stick with my original statement that “ long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement”




We are all of this opinion in Europe, but if you look at the various videos from North America about this topic, it seem that some hunter there not know that.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26688
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: grandveneur]
      #375134 - 15/03/23 02:25 AM

Which is what turned me off watching a hunting show on Cable called Wild TV. They did a lot of shooting with Christianson (Canadian) Rifles and Sheppard Scopes, shooting elk at 1,000 yards with 7mm mags etc. Of course, every shot videoed, dropped the elk in it's tracks - straight down. Those who have hunted elk know this only happens with spine or brain shots, something you cannot rely upon at close range, let alone at 1,000 yards.
Bloody disgusting.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4971
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: 458Win]
      #375139 - 15/03/23 08:26 AM

Quote:

Bullet construction and shot placement ALWAYS TRUMP “power”. And I don’t care who you are, long range shooting ALWAYS is detrimental to bullet placement !




Agree with one over rider. That the bullet has enough energy "power" to reach the vitals.

Re long range shooting. In my younger years when I did a hell of a lot more shooting I considered 300mts to be long range. Now days 200mts is a long shot for me. I use to be competent to shoot to 200mts standing unsupported, nowadays if it is over 50 mt I am looking to adopt a supported position if possible. The game I am talking about are animals the size of pigs.

What I am getting at is the term Long Range is different things to different people. To me 600mt + shots at animals are plain unethical. Way to many things to go wrong.


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DarylS
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Re: Big Bores and Brown Bears [Re: Rule303]
      #375145 - 15/03/23 09:47 AM

Exactly- too many things can and do go wrong on long shots. Shooting steel at 600 to 1,000 meters is one thing, but it is not ethical hunting, imho.
Now, that has one caveat, shooting vermin. I have shot a lot of ground squirrels at over 500yards - iirc, 560 was my longest poke. I have seen in type that some guys are able to shoot coyotes at 700yards with custom 204 Rugers and 40gr. bullets. Again, this seems OK, but not big game. Not for me, anyway.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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