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NitroXAdministrator
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shoot wolves now, ask questions later
      #175773 - 19/02/11 04:50 AM

Montana governor threat: shoot wolves now, ask questions later

By Laura Zuckerman Laura Zuckerman – Wed Feb 16, 9:44 pm ET

SALMON, Idaho (Reuters) – Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer declared on Wednesday he was ready to order state game officials to kill off entire wolf packs in defiance of federal protections under the Endangered Species Act.

In a letter to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, the two-term Democrat cited his authority as governor to uphold citizens' rights "to protect their property and to continue to enjoy Montana's cherished wildlife heritage and traditions."

Schweitzer said he was driven to act out of an urgent need to assist ranchers and sportsmen left unable to control wolves posing a serious threat to livestock and elk herds.

"If there is a dang wolf in your corral attacking your pregnant cow, shoot that wolf. And if its pals are in the corral, shoot them, too," Schweitzer told Reuters in a telephone interview.

His letter comes as rising tensions over wolves in the Northern Rockies, including Idaho and Wyoming, are playing out in the courts, Congress and state legislatures.

"I cannot continue to ignore the crying need for workable wolf management while Montana waits, and waits, and waits," Schweitzer wrote.

Last week, federal wildlife officials proposed letting Idaho kill off scores of wolves in what would be the largest government-sanctioned wolf culling in that state since the animals were reintroduced to the Rockies in the mid-1990s.

Schweitzer is threatening to act without seeking federal approval in advance, to order state wildlife agents to "respond to any livestock depredation by removing whole (wolf) packs that kill livestock wherever this may occur."

The governor said he would allow ranchers themselves to kill any wolves that attack their livestock, and to do so without the need for an investigation by wildlife officials.

An estimated 1,700 wolves roam parts of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, all of them generally protected from sport hunting.

Asked if he felt he was violating federal law, Schweitzer said his attorneys had reviewed his letter and advised him that his decrees were "well within our powers."

A spokeswoman for the Interior Department, Kendra Barkoff, said the administration of President Barack Obama agreed that wolf numbers have recovered and should be managed by the states, but "the governor's letter is not the answer."

The government in 2009 removed the wolf from the list of endangered species in Montana and Idaho, but environmentalists sued, and a federal judge in Montana last August ordered wolf protections restored in those two states.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110217/us_nm/us_wolves_montana

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: NitroX]
      #175776 - 19/02/11 07:08 AM

Quote:


The government in 2009 removed the wolf from the list of endangered species in Montana and Idaho, but environmentalists sued, and a federal judge in Montana last August ordered wolf protections restored in those two states.]




WTF??????? is that - enviros sued (who?) & got wolf back on the list. I've hear this time and time again in the States - there is VERY something wrong with this picture! A minority rules the majority becasue it makes them sad to have wolves on a hunting list. So bloody what? Who cares?
Why not sue to have them put back on the hunting list? Does it only work for enviro's? again - WTF

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Daryl


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tinker
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #175781 - 19/02/11 07:36 AM

From what I hear, there is more ammunition up there than there are wolves.

Hopefully the locals can do the math and administrate their resources accordingly.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: tinker]
      #175783 - 19/02/11 07:42 AM

what isn't known, doesn't hurt

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #175785 - 19/02/11 08:16 AM

Quote:

what isn't known, doesn't hurt





Exactly.


Gun, Ammunition, Spade.

The 3 essential things !!!


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Tom_H
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #175793 - 19/02/11 09:51 AM

"A minority rules the majority becasue it makes them sad to have wolves on a hunting list."

You know Daryl, you have a point.

Being from NY- specifically an area where this type of behavior is prevalent, the people responsible for that behavior don't come around(and they sometimes do) until the mammal in question eats their cat, wrecks their car, etc. Not that it should change their minds.

Perfect example is Westchester county which is within 5-20 miles of NYC. Recently they opened hunting in at least one nature preserve (density 60 deer/mile square) and a few kids were attacked by possibly non rabid coyotes in their yards. Not much is heard anymore about control techiniques.

Plane hits geese- lands in Hudson river. Limit is now 8 birds a day until March and I know that Conservation "collects" resident birds during the molt. So much for feeding the birds in the park.

Did you know that there are moose within 30 miles of the NYC border?
They come down the river areas in CT and end up in the NYC watershed with a big string of reserviors and undeveloped(able) land. Conservation shot one a few years ago. Said it was brain worm. I just dont think that they want breeding moose in that populated an area. Last time someone hit one during rush hour - 9 car pile up but luckily no one was hurt (except the moose.)

The latest issue is the probalility of cougar in the same area. Some people say that they were pets that were released when they became unmanagable. Also possible that they were wild cats that took the moose route.
Now there is an apex predator that makes the coyote look like an amature.

Let see where this one goes.

Of course they don't have a problem with the wolves. They don't live there.

Cheers

Tom

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Tom_H]
      #175803 - 19/02/11 01:43 PM

The only way by which wolf populations in Idaho can be reduced the 80% necessary to bring them to the recovery goal is with the targeted use of toxicants.

Shoot, shovel and shutup is fun to say, but it woill not reduce wolf populations to anywhere near the necessary amount to eliminate negative impact to game and livestock populations.

USDA must approve and register a wolf toxicant.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 9.3x57]
      #175829 - 20/02/11 02:35 AM

Well this wolf is getting out of town ...



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: NitroX]
      #175846 - 20/02/11 11:03 AM

Points well taken fellas - Rod - you are right on toxicants - however the 'problem' is far from a peak - it has only really just barely started. No ranchers have been eaten out of existance - yet. Most people do not yet understand the gravity of the situatioon. Some never do.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Freeloader123
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #175856 - 20/02/11 03:49 PM

I guess we're luck that in Texas we just have to worry mostly about Wildcats.



Well, we have cougars and every once in a while a bear wanders into the fringes of the state from New Mexico or Louisiana.


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Ripp
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Freeloader123]
      #175926 - 21/02/11 08:42 AM

An article in our local paper today

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/article_85f9f742-3c64-11e0-a5ec-001cc4c002e0.html


stated the republicans have introduced legistlation that would provide Montana no longer to comply with the Federal Endangered Species Act..which is the crutch most of the animal rights advocates and fed judges use to stop the hunt...

They (many residents,ranchersm hunters, rocky mtn elk foundation, etc) are pretty fired up about the damage the wolves are having on wildlife..elk and moose especially...saw the other day where the Big Horn Sheep Governors Tag actioned off for $295,000. --cant wait to see what Montana Fish and Game will have to saw once the wolves start eating their expensive mutton..

think we have more than enough guns and ammo in the state to put a sizeable dent in the wolf population...and think it is going to start happening -with or without the goverments blessing..state or federal...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (21/02/11 08:46 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Ripp]
      #175929 - 21/02/11 09:00 AM


"...and think it is going to start happening -with or without the goverments blessing..state or federal..."


That applies to anything if the Gov't doesn't do something.

Happens over here all the time with ducks, roo's, emus.

You can have 10,000 on your property and they will give you a tag for 100 !!!


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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Freeloader123]
      #175941 - 21/02/11 11:08 AM

Freeloader - I've never heard of a bodcat taking down a deer before. Interesting picture. No reason why it couldn't though, with that hold.

I've never hear of a lynx taking deer up here, but no reason why they couldn't as well. We also are having an increase of mountain lions here. Saw the first in 1981 - haven't see one since, but have seen tracks and ranchers have seen them close to out buildings. One was pestering a local rancher's dogs - but then it moved away, I guess.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Sarg
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #175946 - 21/02/11 02:09 PM

"I've never hear of a lynx taking deer up here, but no reason why they couldn't as well. We also are having an increase of mountain lions here. Saw the first in 1981 - haven't see one since, but have seen tracks and ranchers have seen them close to out buildings. One was pestering a local rancher's dogs - but then it moved away, I guess."

Are you saying it moved under ground ? LoL !


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Ripp
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #175998 - 22/02/11 06:13 AM

Have a friend in West Yellowstone who had routinely had whitetail taken by bobcat on his property--especially during the winter...

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Ripp]
      #176004 - 22/02/11 07:19 AM

Bobcat can be devastating on deer. Early Idaho F&G records are replete with recommendations to hammer them. I myself have seen a bobcat wrestling with a deer in the middle of a highway a few years ago...grip on its throat just like the picture above. Here they are well known as deer killers. As with all the larger predators, they are really hard on fawns.

Wolf populations are far beyond being signficiantly reduced with a mere hunting season.

Snaring is not an option in deer country, and trapping requires expensive traps. A smallish wolf setup will cost at least $5,000 and then you'd have to be able to make some money on them, which here...they are worth nothing.

Just now, home for lunch, I am back from checking snares. 8 coyotes killed in darn hard work in the timber, skiing trails and snowshoeing the setups since December, and somebody yesterday followed my track in and destroyed my sets and stole some of my snares. I'm done now in that country, done because of a trash lover. Now that the snow is melting, they could make the trip mostly on a 4 wheeler, and they only had to make the hike once. Think I'm pissed???

At $125 per trap, you think somebody is going to leave a whole bunch of wolf traps in the woods here? That's what good wolf traps cost. Cheap ones are $60 a pop.

People are more and more changing their minds, getting to realize we have to do something, but even the F&G departments have no idea how to do it and don't want to anyway since it requires hard work and killing something, which more and more the sissified western F&G Dept's don't want to do.

Look but don't touch. That's their motto.

Here's a recent yote on the leash waiting for the end. This setup cannot be used for wolves because of the snare loop height, yet our F&G people still stroll around telling everyone someday snaring will take care of the problem. I'm sick of know-nothing F&G personnel who have no idea what a hike in the woods feels like...



The only answer is toxicants. Applied in snowmobile and 4 wheeler tracks and aerially applied in yarding areas. We have closely studied the 1915-1930 methods and the concepts, but not the materials can be accomplished again.

And we have two potentially useful toxicants for application here.

We need the laws changed to allow controlled reduction.

Application of toxicants needs not be heltersketer, broad spectrum or irresponsible. In fact, it is the only answer to expanding wolf populations. Shooting, snaring and trapping will NOT reduce wolf populations adequately to meet original recovery goals and to right the wrongs imposed on the people of this state by the terrorist act of dumping them on top of us.

Toxicants must be approved by the USDA and registered for use on wolves. The exact methods and materials used to reduce wolf populations in the 1915-1930 time period are outdated and environmentally unacceptable, as well as being operationally obsolete. We have studied that history and methods extensively and while those old methods were effective at reducing coyote and wolf populations, they were also not species-specific and did cause negative impact to non-target species.

Also, there is no way a sufficient number of bait stations using large animal carcasses could be established today {or in the future}. Those methods, once they were discovered and refined, after much time, effort and study, made for relatively fast and efficient elimination of wolves and coyotes but would not be acceptable today. But the concepts can be used for future canid population reduction.

Today, an inexpensive, grain-based product, using animal fat for leavening and with the addition of a blood extract such as Plantskydd {a tree treatment to discourage ungulate brousing} to isolate species should be tested by USDA first on coyotes, then on wolves when wolves are delisted. In side-to-side tests, theobromine/caffeine and Xylitol {approximately 15 grams/biscuit or "muffin"} should be tested both for lethality, humaneness and in the product described, species-specificity.

Application in snowmobile and ATV tracks and/or by aerial drop means could be accomplished relatively cheaply and efficiently, depending on road and trail access to the target areas. This application could be accomplished during mid-late winter during the time when ungulate populations are concentrated in low-country valleys and drainages. This and at fawning and calving time are the worst time periods for wolf depredation.

In addition, the late winter season is the time period of denning activity for both coyotes and wolves and represents the most efficient time period for canid population reduction/control. Application period or "season" would thus be quite short, probably not exceeding one month per year. Due to the existence of known trails and ungulate yarding areas, impact should be excellent and cessation of application immediate when reduction quota is attained.

"Extinction" of wolves is not a threat. Elimination of wolves from the landscape of Idaho or the West will not occur.

Toxicant application is the most efficient and safe method to reduce wolf populations back to the recovery goals and is, in fact, the only method that will do it. Any "expert" who promotes delisting and wolf population reduction and yet rejects toxicant application and promotes other methods as having the prospect of successful wolf population reduction is speaking disingenuously or from a simple lack of knowledge on the subject.

A product as described would have a short "life" in the open. Breakdown of the product in weather would be fast, its impact on the environment nil.

Though theobromine/caffeine is currently being tested for coyote control, my bet is on Xylitol, ultimately. Xylitol is a sweetener; it is highly palatable to canids as has been described in the veterinary literature. It is already approved as a food product, safe for human consumption and in fact is already used for as a sweetener throughout Europe and by many diabetics and diet conscious people, and as a toxicant for canid control appears very effective. Its impact on species could very likely be easily controlled by delivery system/recipe refinement. The actual, final toxicant product itself could be so safe to humans that a child could eat it and suffer no more trouble than if they ate a few too many Oreo cookies.

The fact is, wolves are devastating to Idaho's wild game and livestock and to rural economies and businesses. The cost of their existence in the populations that exist today is staggering.

Simply said; We need their populations reduced, and regulated toxicant application is the only method that will do it. USDA approved, legal and regulated application is the method that must be pursued.

Lobby your state and Federal Congressment to delist wolves and lobby them to authorize USDA to begin study of canid toxicants for the eventual approval of a product effective at reduction of wolf populations.

Support current Congressional bills to delist wolves.

Call your Congressmen!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176011 - 22/02/11 11:08 AM

Little balls of cheap hamurger - dose of 10/80 in the middle. Dropped on frozen lakes from aircraft or the middle of big fields - Not that I'm suggesting this, mind you, but it worked here.

Only the 'prime' carnivors cross wide open spaces with impuny (generally) - in areas with lots of coyotes, there won't be any or many wolves. Watch for the coyotes to bugger off. Then, you've got problems.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #176016 - 22/02/11 11:50 AM

Daryl, I have no idea where a guy would get 10/80 but here, all toxicants must go thru an approval process just like all pesticides. It takes a long time with any pesticide, but a wolf toxicant wuld require first delisting of wolves, then a long USDA testing process and final registering of the toxicant for wolves.

Along the trail will be a herd of lawyers like Doug Honnold who no doubt will be in the pay of the enviro-terrorist groups like Earthjustice and/or Defenders of Wildlife. This whole affair is nothing for the enviros except a vast money sucking machine. It has nothing to do with the earth, justice, defending or wildlife.

We have a rotten system when it comes to environmental law which is increasingly the means by which injustice and tyranny spreads throughout the USA.

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500Nitro
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176017 - 22/02/11 12:15 PM


Strychnine works even better.

And kills them within 20 feet of picking up the bait
whereas 1080 doesn't affect them as quickly so a
carcass can be some distance from where the bait
was laid.

.


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9.3x57
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #176018 - 22/02/11 12:23 PM

M44's are currently approved and registered for use on coyotes.

Problem is, due to the cyanide, they will never be approved for use on Federal land.

Google "Coyote Lure Operative Device" {CLOD} and you will find the next generation of delivery devices, this one being geared up for theobromine/caffeine.

Problem at present is the testing lab indicates a lethal does is easy to get IN the coyote, but they commonly puke it out. We need a palatable, humane {yeah, that's important...}, lethal AND palatable chemical/toxicant. Xylitol just may meet those criteria AND if a recipe and or delivery device can be produced, take care of canids like nothing else; it is environmentally inert and safe to humans. 4 grams are said in the veterinary literature to be deadly to a 90 lb dog.

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Ripp
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176034 - 23/02/11 12:40 AM

This might be a really stupid suggestion but wouldnt common rat poison work..the reason I am stating this is that one of my neighbors was on vacation..his wife was taking care of the "family pets" ..--

they had mouse/rat poison in boxes sitting around in various places in the garage to take care of hte occassional mouse/rat coming in to nest in the fall/early winter..

anyway--the dog somehow got into a box from behind the freezer---he ended up dying from it a few days later--she didnt realize he was sick in time..byt the time she figured it out it was too late...

it seems it would be too weak--but it killed a 60lb dog...

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Ripp]
      #176036 - 23/02/11 12:54 AM

There are lots of poisons toxic to canids. Problem is USDA has to find one that, along with a delivery device if necessary, isolates the species for approval and registration. They also have to test humaneness and speed of lethality, cost effectiveness, etc.

And...

Most importantly...

political acceptability.

Yeah, I know, makes you want to puke, doesn't it.

Humaneness a factor for killing the most INhumane killers in the woods??

Good grief...

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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 9.3x57]
      #176038 - 23/02/11 01:38 AM

Gopher poison in Alberta used to be 10/80. Trouble with Strychnine is the smell - they learn it and then stay away. Now, poisons leave signs in the body, so anyone looking at a hide could tell from blue veins - apparently - this is what I was told. I don't know if that's 10/80 or strychnine or cyanide or all three. The cyanide guns are immediate - these wolves are smart and the guns would probably only work on one animal of a pack. That's no good.

As far as making them extict, too much wild territory in the States just as there is here. You've got them thanks to the Government idiots, now you are stuck with them.

We tried to eradicate the wolves - make them extict, back in the 50's - didn't work then and won't work now. Everyone was poisoning wolves. Poisoned carcasses and parts of carcases all over the place - horses, sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, you name it - spread all over, dropped from planes even. Nasty on all wildlife that are the dead wolves or on animals/birds that ate those. That's when they found 10/80, if used correctly could be almost Canine specific - even an eagle, hawk or raven eating the dead wolf would only get sick then swear off dead wolves.

An old trapper who was in the game back then, told me wolves got to where they would run if they came across human scent or anything to do with humans - dogs, horses, cattle - whatever - would put them on the run - not touch anything human or of humans. He said they'd come to a snowmobile or dog sled and jump it by 10' either side, never coming close to the nasty human's track.

It took them over 20 years to overpopulate again - quite an animal. Spread the food on the table and they'll multiply like gophers - well, not quite.

How could the Fed's be so, well, you get the drift - the rancher gets the shaft.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #176041 - 23/02/11 03:09 AM

I understand an application of Piper Cub and Benelli are very effective at eliminating entire packs....

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500Nitro
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DoubleD]
      #176045 - 23/02/11 03:49 AM

Daryl

Foxes over here didn't learn the smell of Strychnine.

On the other hand, I know the farmer used Blood and chicken liver as well with it so it might have covered it up.

They love livers, heart and those internal organs.


One trick used to try to keep them dying in a certain area
was to bury some blood BELOW the bait, so after taking the bait they would dig down to the blood, increasing heart rate and keeping them in local.

Edited by 500Nitro (23/02/11 04:22 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #176071 - 23/02/11 10:04 AM

Lots of tricks of the trade.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Story
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Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #197974 - 28/12/11 10:16 AM

From Wisconsin -

Landowners will be able to hunt and kill wolves causing problems on their property now that the legendary predator is no longer considered an endangered species.

The Obama administration last week declared more than 4,000 gray wolves in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan have recovered from widespread extermination and will be removed from the endangered species list.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/2...ext%7CFRONTPAGE


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ruffcountry
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa
Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #197978 - 28/12/11 02:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The government in 2009 removed the wolf from the list of endangered species in Montana and Idaho, but environmentalists sued, and a federal judge in Montana last August ordered wolf protections restored in those two states.]




WTF??????? is that - enviros sued (who?) & got wolf back on the list. I've hear this time and time again in the States - there is VERY something wrong with this picture! A minority rules the majority becasue it makes them sad to have wolves on a hunting list. So bloody what? Who cares?
Why not sue to have them put back on the hunting list? Does it only work for enviro's? again - WTF





I'm afraid its much crazier and worse than you know . Under the "Equal Access to Justice Act" enviormental groups file suit against various govt agencies and then (wait for it)..... the govt pays thier attorney fees.... thats right the govt pays them for thier suits against the govt . It is in a word ,,, IDIOTIC .




--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

Edited by ruffcountry (29/12/11 01:43 PM)


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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: ruffcountry]
      #197984 - 28/12/11 06:39 PM

Just start leaving them blocks of Chocolate as "treats".

Jokes, jokes.

1080's rather popular here in QLD by our management groups, there's alot of rules and regulations regarding its use, though.

--------------------
.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: Ash]
      #198001 - 29/12/11 06:48 AM

Nice thing about 1080 - when used in the winter time here, on frozen lakes and open fields lodged inside grease balls (fatty ground meat) it becomes almost canine specific. If over laced, ie: too much put in, it can kill down the food chain, but used properly, works perfectly on wolves.

We're about due for another go, ourselves.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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aromakr
.375 member


Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: shoot wolves now, ask questions later [Re: DarylS]
      #198043 - 29/12/11 03:29 PM

AS far as I'm concerned, the wolf was introduced for one reason. To eliminate hunting and take guns out of the hands of the sports man. When there is no game to hunt, man will not hunt!!!! Then the anti's can make the point there is no need for the population to have guns.
Bob


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