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lancaster
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and they dont care
      #104413 - 07/05/08 01:04 AM

And the Government don’t care, building a fence usefull like the Maginot line and the Berlin wall.
What will a property being worth if you can say: We have jaguar’s here?

Bush Administration’s Inaction Pushes Jaguar Closer to Extinction in US
Defenders of Wildlife promises suit over Bush administration refusal to create a recovery plan for jaguar
WASHINGTON, DC - March 11 - Defenders of Wildlife has filed a notice of intent to sue in Washington D.C. district court to compel the Bush administration to create a recovery plan for jaguars in the Southwest. In February, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) stated that it would not be drafting a recovery plan for the jaguar, claiming that despite the presence of jaguars in the United States and the existence of large swaths of prime jaguar habitat, this big cat is biologically a “foreign” species and as such does not qualify for formal recovery planning.
“The jaguar is as American a species as the bald eagle,” said Craig Miller, southwest representative of Defenders of Wildlife. “When the eagle was in danger of extinction in the United States, we didn’t give up and say, ‘There are plenty in Canada, so we don’t need them here in the States.’ It doesn’t make sense that the agency would be willing to let the jaguar fade from the Southwest just because there is a larger population across the border.”
Defenders is considering legal action in this instance not only because FWS has a responsibility to protect this particular species, but also because there are many other species in the United States with populations that exist both here and across borders in Mexico, Canada and other nations. Some of these species, including sea turtles, grizzly bears, woodland caribou and numerous bird species, are threatened or endangered and thus require a recovery plan which provides a road map to achieving healthy, sustainable populations.
“The Bush administration’s decision to forgo creating a recovery plan for the jaguar sets a dangerous precedent for all threatened and endangered species that live along our borders,” said Jamie Rappaport Clark, executive vice president for Defenders of Wildlife and former director of FWS. “Animals do not recognize man-made political boundaries. They do not know whether they are in the United States, Mexico or Canada, but they do know a good home when they see one. This cross-our-fingers-and-hope approach to conserving species along the U.S. borders could result in us giving up on keeping some of the most amazing species on the planet around for all Americans to enjoy.”
According to Defenders, FWS has failed to respond to repeated calls over the last decade from scientists requesting that the wildlife agency develop a recovery plan for the American jaguar, as required by law. Most recently, in 2007, the prestigious American Society of Mammologists issued a resolution stating “jaguars continue to decline throughout significant portions of their remaining range” and “habitats for jaguars in the United States, including Arizona and New Mexico, are vital to the long-term resilience and survival of the species.”
“The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has the duty to protect and recover imperiled wildlife, but when they ignore science for politics, citizens must ensure that wildlife laws are upheld. The future of America’s jaguars is at stake,” said Miller.
From. http://exitstageright.wordpress.com/2008...tinction-in-us/

And this it the truth about this national treasue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhxxP40G-ac

A rare wild jaguar seen and photographed in the United States by hunter Warner Glenn

SANTA RITA MOUNTAINS, Arizona (Reuters) -
Jaguar biologist
Emil McCain stoops over a remote-sensing camera attached to a
tree in these rugged mountains a few miles to the north of the
Arizona-Mexico border.
The researcher is checking for images of a handful of
extremely rare jaguars that prowl up from Mexico over mountain
trails in some of the wildest country in the southwest,
although they are now under threat.Scrolling through images of bobcats and deer snapped by thecamera, he explains how the habitat for one of the United
States' most elusive predators is being pressured by illegal
immigration from Mexico and the controversial remedies sought
by the U.S. government to curb it: building fences.Jaguars are powerful, solitary hunters that were revered byancient cultures including the Aztecs and the Maya who believed
they had supernatural powers. They roam over a vast habitat
ranging from northern Argentina in the south to the rugged,
borderland wildernesses of Arizona and New Mexico, although
they are rarely seen.The sturdy, spotted cats -- which are the only roaring
felines in the Americas -- were believed to have become extinct
in the United States until an Arizona rancher photographed one
he encountered while hunting mountain lions in the far
southwest corner of New Mexico in 1996."It was unforgettable, probably the most exciting day I have had in my life," Warner Glenn said of his brush with the
burly, roaring male jaguar, which his hounds briefly brought to
bay on a pillar of rock in the Peloncillo Mountains.Proof positive of their presence in the United States wasgained six months later when another Arizona cougar hunter,
Jack Childs, treed and photographed a second jaguar in the
distant reaches of the Baboquivari Mountains southwest of
Tucson."They were on the brink of extirpation and to find out they
were still here was a really great thing," Childs said of the
animal, another male, which his hounds chased up into an
alligator juniper tree."It was indescribable, a life-changing experience. We
tipped our hats to it, thanked it for the experience and it
went on its way."Neither jaguars were harmed. The photographs taken by Glenn
and Childs helped win federal protection for the animals as an
endangered species the following year and stirred interest from
researchers eager to find out about their population and
movements.

from: http://www.nowpublic.com/environment/rar...er-warner-glenn

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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AspenHill
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Re: and they dont care [Re: lancaster]
      #104417 - 07/05/08 02:30 AM

Somehow I prefer jaguars over grey wolves. That said was there a plan proposed to protect jaguars or just a shout to protect them? I don't think creating a plan should belong to a political party or an emotional entity, but rather by true wildlife professionals. My guess is there never were a lot of jaguars in this country but even so, they are worth a preservation effort.



--------------------
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Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

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Nakihunter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: AspenHill]
      #104429 - 07/05/08 09:10 AM

I thought that there used to be Jaguar in Florida but it became extinct. This is the first I have heard of jaguar in the dry region of NM / AZ.

What an experience for the guys who saw them & photographed them. It reminds me of the 3 tigers I saw in Corbet National Park in 1979.

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bwananelson
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Nakihunter]
      #104435 - 07/05/08 10:54 AM

jaguar or black mountain lion

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Huvius
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Re: and they dont care [Re: bwananelson]
      #104446 - 07/05/08 12:25 PM

Surely, the only way to determine if they really do move across the border is to catch and collar them.
They did range as far North as the southern border of Colorado at one time, but even then, sightings were rare and anecdotal. No cub sightings that I have ever heared of. So it seems unlikely that they ever had a "sustainable" population here.
The first article's supposition that if jaguars are not repopulated in the southern US, they will be "giving up on keeping some of the most amazing species on the planet around for all Americans to enjoy" is typical jargon.
It is preferable to protect a species where it thrives rather than introduce them where they merely survive - although the cat in the second article looked pretty healthy - looks to be dining on dogs...

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lancaster
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Huvius]
      #104461 - 07/05/08 07:55 PM

problem is how to blame the savage in real third world colony's about game protection and managment when a system waste billions of taxe dollars for b......t do nothing for big cats when they cross the border. if the jaguar live most time on the mexican side or not when he hunting in arizona, new mex and texas its a part of his habitat. "The historic range of the species included much of the southern half of the United States"
agree, it must be a once in a lifetime moment for the hunter's in arizona waiting for a mountain lion and find a jaguar in front of the dogs.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Ripp
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Re: and they dont care [Re: lancaster]
      #104469 - 07/05/08 09:48 PM

I might be incorrect but I thought I read something recently that SCI was doing some work on this issue???

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Ripp]
      #104474 - 07/05/08 11:58 PM

I personally hope this jaguar thing becomes huge, a plan is required, jaguars are introduced to AZ and NM and lots of money is wasted on it. I hope the populations of those States are abused just like we have been with wolves. Where we have little political clout, the populations of AZ and NM have more and if they and their local economies, hunting and recreating are as roughly treated as ours, maybe they will join the fight against the Predator Worshippers that have seized this country by the throat. Of course, it appears from the story that they have already exercised their clout...

It is high time we take a very close look at the place predators have and should have in the ecology of the West and elsewhere. What is needed is a complete rewriting of the Endangered Species Act, the interpretations of which are the source of the mayhem USF&WS has caused with Canadian wolves here and increasingly elsewhere.

The treatment of jaguars in this instance is absurd. There are 70,000 wolves in North America yet the USF&WS felt compelled to dump them here. Jaguars should be supported in the US SW. Of course!! It has been known forever that jaguar's range includes the southern USA. Poor things, they deserve to be protected, their numbers artificially supported and the local people's interests completely disregarded. What is good for the north should be good for the south.

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AspenHill
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Re: and they dont care [Re: 9.3x57]
      #104478 - 08/05/08 12:41 AM

But jaguars don't live in packs and breed indiscriminantly like wolves so jaguar numbers won't ever be huge. Jags will probably munch on a few joggers here and there and the odd fence jumper so they should fit in well in the SW urban jungle.

--------------------
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Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Huvius
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Re: and they dont care [Re: AspenHill]
      #104559 - 09/05/08 12:12 AM

I doubt that many Jaguars would survive in the lawless north of Mexico now anyway.
I think this is like many species - once in a while, they are seen outside of their "normal" range. For instance, there have been penguins found in the N. Pacific. Does this mean that the northern hemesphere is their "normal" range and we should attempt to introduce them there? NO, of course not!
In recent decades, the Jaguars that have been sighted in the US are as likely to be escapees or released from private owners as they are to be truly wild. We, here in the US, have a problem with stupid people releasing exotic pets as they get too big to handle, and I have no doubt that at least a few animals have escaped from the many "rescue" shelters scattered around the SW US.
Big cats would be better served if we bred and released tigers back into their native range - after all, the country with the greatest tiger population on earth is the good old USA.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Huvius]
      #104580 - 09/05/08 03:56 AM

Hey, let those tigers loose - maybe they'll reduce the wolf population!

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lancaster
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Huvius]
      #104584 - 09/05/08 05:21 AM

Quote:

I doubt that many Jaguars would survive in the lawless north of Mexico now anyway.





do you mean that they will became rare from poaching. maybe true but maybe they are better on the way than we believe. its not the first time that we seeing big game coming back when everyone was thinking they are close to extinction.
of course I dont believe any "expert" who live from telling you bad news.
believe that jaguar's can be a great benefit for a hunting area if you have to market it. the most who pay will never see a hair from a cat but they will allways have a little bit of romantic shudder when thinking " he can be here".

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Nakihunter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Huvius]
      #104602 - 09/05/08 08:42 AM

Quote:

....
In recent decades, the Jaguars that have been sighted in the US are as likely to be escapees or released from private owners as they are to be truly wild. We, here in the US, have a problem with stupid people releasing exotic pets .......... after all, the country with the greatest tiger population on earth is the good old USA.




I agree 100%. A full grown adult Jaguar or any other big cat will cross into new territory only if it needs new territory for food or for breeding. The SW may have some Coues deer, Javalina, Mulies & Elk that the cats can feed on. But are jaguars so abundant below the border that they need to colonise new territory a la whitetails in the north? If the territory had females in heat, people / researchers would hear them roaring when in heat. The odd animal sighted could be an escapee / released one or one that was chased north by dogs. I will believe that the Jaguar is a naturally occurring wild animal in the US when there is research proving breeding pairs are active for a full season & cubs are around for a while.

I hope no idiot releases a pair. The cubs would starve in all probability as the adults would not have learned to hunt large pray and they will need such pray to raise cubs.

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lancaster
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Nakihunter]
      #105411 - 18/05/08 03:48 AM







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/05/08 03:50 AM)


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bwananelson
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Re: and they dont care [Re: lancaster]
      #105576 - 19/05/08 01:53 PM

NATURE WILL FIND AWAY HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE HUNTED ELK.MULE DEER,OR ANY OTHER WESTERN GAME AND TELL ME HOW MANY COUGAR YOU HAVE SEEN WITHOUT THE USE OF DOGS,THEY SAY THE FLORIDA PANTHER IS ALMOST EXTINCT HERE IN FLORIDA YET I SAW ONE ROAD KILLED 25 MINUTES FROM DISNEY,THERE IS A REASON THEY ARE CALLED THE GHOST OF THE ROCKIES.THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE THAN YOU THINK.PUT PREDATORS BACK WHERE THEY BELONG AND LET NATURE DECIDE.WE AS HUMANS WERE THE BLAME OF THIER DEMISE BECAUSE IF OUR LUST TO KILL WE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB OF ALMOST GETTING RID OF ALL GAME WE HUNT LET THE PROS DO THIER JOB SHUT UP AND LET THESE AND ALL CREATURES HAVE A CHANCE,NO I DONT WANT TO STOP HUNTING BUT I DONT WANT TO SEE AN ANIMAL WIPED OUT.SO WOLF KILL ELK OK YOU WANT TO GET RID OF THEM FINE,IN PENNSYLVANIA 50,000 DEER ARE KILLED BY CARS I SAY THEN BAN CARSS IN THE WHOLE STATE HOW MANY DEER ARE KILLED SU WIDE NY CARS,LETS JUST BAN CARS.WILL YOU STAND FOR THAT,RIGHT DID NOT THINK SO

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Nakihunter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: bwananelson]
      #105975 - 24/05/08 08:29 AM

bwananelson, I actually agree with you. Wolves & other predators have a place in nature & we are the ultimate predator. The problem is that we create artificial changes to the environment & cause long term harm to the natural balance. Hence the problems of road kills & CJD or similar brain wasting diseases.

I actually prefer hunting deer when the animals are wild & smart. No fun in hunting bambi who looks at you with those big eyes and taps his foot with tail raised, just waiting for you to pull the trigger. I'd rather stalk a skittish doe and nail her as she jumps.

The jaguar story is a question on credibility - are these really wild animals or artificially introduced / escapees?

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9.3x57
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Nakihunter]
      #105982 - 24/05/08 11:05 AM

You guys who are in love with predators or are somehow duped into the PC belief that they are needed for "bio-diversity" make me quite sick when you fawn over them. It is absurd to suggest that wolves can better prevent CJD than we can. You have just taken the tripe hook, line and sinker.

Bio-diversity: How about reintroducing the anopheles mosquito into Alabama, Georgia and Florida. They are beautiful under the microscope and so is malaria.

Just last week some friends of mine had a saddle horse shredded by two wolves.

Save this post and see if it is not true: in ten years, the introduction of wolves will be recognised for what it is... an environmental catastrophe of the worst order.

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lancaster
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Re: and they dont care [Re: 9.3x57]
      #105990 - 24/05/08 03:25 PM

Quote:


Bio-diversity: How about reintroducing the anopheles mosquito into Alabama, Georgia and Florida. They are beautiful under the microscope and so is malaria.






thats great!!!

dont have in mind to start a figth club about wolves. the jaguar was rare in the past and he will be so if its possible to bring him back in future. the dessert's of new mexico are a something different story.

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peter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: 9.3x57]
      #105998 - 24/05/08 10:04 PM

Quote:

You guys who are in love with predators or are somehow duped into the PC belief that they are needed for "bio-diversity" make me quite sick when you fawn over them. It is absurd to suggest that wolves can better prevent CJD than we can. You have just taken the tripe hook, line and sinker.

Just last week some friends of mine had a saddle horse shredded by two wolves.





9,3

now you are ranting again, the idea of eradicating nature, because it will make life easy for humans is sickning to the worst degree. and it is one of the reasons wildlife is strugling all over the planet.
the creators put all of us here for a reason, and asuming godlike knowlegde about a ecosystem is wain to say the least.

im sorry for your friends loosing the horse, but them living in wolf country should make them take precautions(stable at night etc.) if they did'nt, then it is also there own wrong doing, that made them loose that horse.(you wouldent leave your car full of goods unlocked in south central L.A)

we got wolf in our moose forests now, so i changed the breed i use in hunting dogs to make sure that it wont be considered a dinnerbell when i hunt there.

my idea of a solution would be to adapt not eradicate.

best regards

peter


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9.3x57
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Re: and they dont care [Re: peter]
      #106000 - 24/05/08 11:22 PM

Peter:

1} We "eradicate nature" all the time. Antibiotics, pesticides, antiseptics, antiviral drugs all have appropriate uses. You guys who think that we and "nature" all must live happily together are completely sucked into a modernist pipe dream of fantasy. People who live close to nature know that is absurd.

But you do mention a red herring argument frequently tossed at those like myself. I am not advocating "eradicating nature". I am advocating eradicating disease, and the wolf is AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN a disease everywhere it has interacted with dense populations of people. Just like rats, tuberculosis, malaria. All are biological organisms that I would be delighted to know are gone. We, and you, do it all the time and rightly so. Peter, do you vaccinate your horses? If so, you are doing exactly what I am advocating. Why not live "close to nature"? Why not allow West Nile Virus to claim its own. For that matter, lets all drink some more Cool-Aid and give up on and shun modern medicine entirely.

Many modern folks weep and fawn all over certain fuzzy critters that make them feel good all over, not understanding at all the repercussions of the spread of the disease.

Just a few weeks ago a self-described "wolf lover" in Shoshone County shot a wolf that was part of a mob wreaking mayhem in his area and one that ripped up his dog. After weeks of trouble and culminating in the shooting of the wolf, he is no longer a "wolf lover". Now he understands the DAILY added cost of wolves. All written up in the paper.

Wolves are trouble pure and simple. You guys who actually believe wolves are a good thing simply do not undersand what a wolf IS and what they do, how they function and the cost to society they exact. There is good reason for your lack of knowledge. The reason is our good forefathers DID know and they killed them all off {or most of them}, and we have been the happy recipients of the blessing of their hard work. You do not understand wolves because you do not live among them. We are not a scattered population here in the context of wolf biology. That is why, with total confidence I say, save this post. Count the years; in 10 it will be an accepted fact that wolf introduction was a disaster. In 20 measures to curb their numbers will be introduced and functioning. The state game dept officials I have spoken to agree, their jobs and the future of hunting in the state are in the balance, and it goes far further than merely sport hunting.

This week it was revealed that the wolf management program costs the state $772,000. Money we simply do not have. money better spent to support the foster care program and other healthcare and programs.

Already the grumblings are there from the widest circles. I know leftist Democrat sorts who thought they were "OK" who are now seeing the light. This is no longer a pure left vs right issue, tho it was at the start, with the left begging for them. But things change. But it will take some years for all the facts to be made plain. Why am I so confident? Because I have lots of experience with stray dog packs and wolves are no different than them, except for the fact that they are protected and in vastly greater numbers, smarter and even more efficient killers. I am telling you guys who sit there and lean back in your easy chair and fill a bowl and listen to Mozart and dream about the wild days of yesteryear, wolves in populated areas are an unmitigated disaster.

2} It isn't "wolf country". We didn't "move into wolf country" anymore than my cousins moved into "malaria country" in Georgia and Alabama. And we rightly eradicated malaria from both those states by eradicating the anopheles mosquito.

3} Peter, I truly mean no disrespect when I say that your suggestion for folks to change their livestock management habits is indicative of your lack of knowledge of this subject. People already HAVE changed their habits and are adapting as best they can. I know the country where you live as I have been there, but you must understand something of the country where we live. What you suggest in the context of protection from wolves is not possible, that is, the adaptations you suggest are already being done by everyone and already were by my friends, but unless you are going to stall the horses and cattle and feed in the barn, never let them graze and never let them out of your sight, well, I could go on but such a suggestion as a solution to wolf predation is really quite unworkable.

4} You have nothing like the numbers of wolves here, and your idea about changing dog breeds is, as you may someday find out, also quite unworkable. Wolves take any dog on the planet. The Shoshone fellow's dog was a Great Pyrennes. The houndsmen here are taking hits all the time from wolves.

5} Your comparison of "wolf country" to "south central L.A" is in a sense a very good one. Personally, I do not like to assign moral responsibility to animals, only to those who manage them.



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peter
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Re: and they dont care [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106015 - 25/05/08 07:07 AM

9,3

we do disagree on this subject but:

1. NO wolfes are no more a disease, than any other animal in this world. sorry mate but whenever you say that, i get pictures of a funny little guy in the 1930's just a bit suth from me, that claimed that about another human race.
i know you are not like that, but any "endlosnungs" idea is a bad idea.

2. my forfathers did'nt dynamite dens, yes they got rid of the wolf in the end, by persuing it mostly for the fur.

3. i still belive that as soon as you guys get a hunting season, the behavior of the wolf will change as it has any other place, when they are persuede by people they get the fear of man back in them again.

the reason why we in europe dont have the uroxe anymore and the vincent is in such low numbers, is because somebody had the brilliant idea, that it was a smart move to erdicate them, so there damn domestic animals had more grasing.

yes you got the mosquito and how many other species in that move ?.

a lot of people think that sharks(another predator) should be eradicated. problem is, now it looks like sharks might be the answer to cure canser.

i will use a quote from your book "the lord shall provide" he did!!! but we are dynamit denning his warehouse and shitting in the allys of his produce section, because we dont know what we need before it is gone forever.

i might be a bunny hugger, because i give thanks every time i take a life, but the idea of taking options away from my kids and grandkids because im to ignorant to know what im doing, seems foolish to me.

predator control is cool, eradication is never the choise of the thinking man.

best regards

peter


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9.3x57
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Re: and they dont care [Re: peter]
      #106016 - 25/05/08 08:40 AM

Yes, we do disagree.

Biologically, just how is a mosquito different than a wolf? Are you telling me that in terms of living organisms, wolves are different than rats, stray dogs, mosquitos and cockroaches?

Which disease would you like to see introduced to Denmark?

{I say introduced, not REintroduced because the taxonomic jury is out yet...and studies are ongoing as to whether the Canadian wolves introduced here ARE the same as our indigenous wolves, wolves that existed up till the time of the introduction of the Canadian wolves. Unfortunately, while there are some 70,000 Canadian wolves, there are very few indigenous wolves in Idaho. And less now, or none due to the introduction of Canadian wolves due to interbreeding and competition. Yes, there is disagreement as to just how all these things should be taxonomically, but no disagreement that if Canadian wolves are NOT the same taxonomically, their introduction is a true eradication of species, the species that was here and should be here.}

You see, my use of the term "eradicate" is directed at the wolves introduced here. We had a very good thing going before wolves were dumped here. AND there were tens of thousands of wolves in North America. There was no need to do what was done.

Interestingly, the SUCCESS of the introduction program MAY be a factor IMO to USF&W Service resistance to introducing jaguar. You see, many in the scientific world did not know that wolves would explode in numbers as they have. And it is my opinion that their success just may be their undoing. But that will take time for people to become educated as to the actual trouble wolves cause to game, to other non-game species, and to humans.

Wolves eat an average of 14 elk/deer per wolf per year. IF the State was allowed to hold their numbers to something like 500, that would be fine with me. But they have no way of estimating their numbers accurately! You really have no idea what the management challenge confronts our State Game biologists. Our state is many times the size of Denmark, in fact, we are 1/2 the size of Sweden. Even with 500 wolves, obviously, we would suffer loss of game, and some depredation of livestock. But the enviros want thousands. And they are very possibly well funded enough to prevent State management. We are unclear whether we will even have a wolf season this year.

Some obviously believe that wherever animals existed they should be introduced if they no longer live there. This is, simply put, ridiculous. Add to that the fact that the actual animals introduced may be different and you get a carnival of bad science.

There ARE certain living organisms that should be severely controlled. In fact, we all agree to that, I suspect, even you. That wolves, even the wrong wolves, are raised up as some sort of idol to man's past mistakes is both pathetic and dangerous. Introducing wolves into the Western US is a bad idea because it follows a misbegotten notion that we can roll back the clock to a make-believe, wonderful day when man didn't mess everything up. Well, you and I certainly agree that man HAS messed a lot of things up. Man is making a huge mess by introducing wolves.

Bringing wolves back won't fix a thing in regard to man's past environmental sins, especially when wolves already exist in somewhat vast numbers elsewhere. The COST to manage these things is huge. I know idealists don't like to count money, but it simply must be counted.

Wolves will not stop human immigration. People will still move in to these areas. Wolves will not stop the spread of humankind. No, but the expense to manage wolves will come with no payback; no payback to the other game and non-game animals that are slaughtered by wolves, no payback to game and non-game species that will contract disease from wolves and no payback to humans who will bear ever-increasing cost to manage them.

I am, in the long term, optimistic. I am optimistic because I am certain that wolves will cause so much mayhem that a common sense approach will be adopted in time. In the short run there will be massive problems, and many very successful game management programs will suffer severely, as they are beginning to suffer already.

There were many good reasons our smart forefathers got rid of wolves. In true wilderness they may have their place, but outside of that, the place to introduce wolves is a zoo, not my back yard.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (26/05/08 01:10 PM)


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Luckydog
.275 member


Reged: 27/02/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Huntin' In Colorado
Re: and they dont care [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106103 - 26/05/08 12:39 PM

People that talk all this trash about wolves and don't even have a clue. There were real reasons we got rid of them the first time. They kill for fun not just for food. I'm not for total eradication of them, I think it would be fine to save a couple for the zoo's. SSS

--------------------
Make Sure You Vote, And Make Sure Your Friends Vote!!

When they outlaw guns...I'll be an outlaw! Reese

Edited by Luckydog (27/05/08 05:37 AM)


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Luckydog
.275 member


Reged: 27/02/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Huntin' In Colorado
Re: and they dont care [Re: bwananelson]
      #106105 - 26/05/08 12:52 PM

Quote:

NATURE WILL FIND AWAY HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE HUNTED ELK.MULE DEER,OR ANY OTHER WESTERN GAME AND TELL ME HOW MANY COUGAR YOU HAVE SEEN WITHOUT THE USE OF DOGS,THEY SAY THE FLORIDA PANTHER IS ALMOST EXTINCT HERE IN FLORIDA YET I SAW ONE ROAD KILLED 25 MINUTES FROM DISNEY,THERE IS A REASON THEY ARE CALLED THE GHOST OF THE ROCKIES.THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE THAN YOU THINK.PUT PREDATORS BACK WHERE THEY BELONG AND LET NATURE DECIDE.WE AS HUMANS WERE THE BLAME OF THIER DEMISE BECAUSE IF OUR LUST TO KILL WE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB OF ALMOST GETTING RID OF ALL GAME WE HUNT LET THE PROS DO THIER JOB SHUT UP AND LET THESE AND ALL CREATURES HAVE A CHANCE,NO I DONT WANT TO STOP HUNTING BUT I DONT WANT TO SEE AN ANIMAL WIPED OUT.SO WOLF KILL ELK OK YOU WANT TO GET RID OF THEM FINE,IN PENNSYLVANIA 50,000 DEER ARE KILLED BY CARS I SAY THEN BAN CARSS IN THE WHOLE STATE HOW MANY DEER ARE KILLED SU WIDE NY CARS,LETS JUST BAN CARS.WILL YOU STAND FOR THAT,RIGHT DID NOT THINK SO




You obviously have no clue what wolves are capable of, and no idea of the problems they are causing. They not only kill elk and deer, they totally disrupt their breeding patterns and they kill for fun. They would kill and eat you, your children and every pet and livestock you own if they had the chance. They are born killers.

--------------------
Make Sure You Vote, And Make Sure Your Friends Vote!!

When they outlaw guns...I'll be an outlaw! Reese


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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: and they dont care [Re: Luckydog]
      #106119 - 26/05/08 04:46 PM

I can see the high emotion here....so let me ask some questions so that I can understand the issue better.

1. Are the wolves in the US not the same species as those in Canada, Alaska, Scandinavia, Russia, Spain, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Middle East, India etc? (I mean - like the Grizzly is the same species as the Brown Bear found in all these countries or the Wapiti is the same species as the Red Deer or maral stag of these countries).
2 Is there any particular difference in the behaviour of the US wolves? Why are they such terrible killers compared to wolves in other areas?
3 Are the wolves really so terrible or is the US elk & deer population now artificially high & unsustainable in the long term?
4 Are the wolves having such an impact because of the lack of buffalo in the ecosystem? In other countries they feed on migrating ungulates which move around a lot more.

May I suggest that we refrain from language that could be offensive. After all we do see extremes of human behaviour that is a lot worse than wolves & this has such a terrible impact on fellow humans.

Lets have some healthy discussions and enjoy the forum. JMTBW

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5503
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Re: and they dont care [Re: Nakihunter]
      #106139 - 26/05/08 11:51 PM

First, Naki, thanks for asking questions. I personally would never presume to make judgements about the management of animals in other countries without doing so, and I find it quite amazing that many people seem quite content to make judgements about what is going on here without doing so. It is one of the problems relating to wolves, that is, as put to me by the, IMO, PRO-wolf Large Predator Manager for the State of Idaho who told me point blank that they engender almost a religious following.

Ever heard the statement: "He's a nice fellow until you get to know him"? IMO, that relates to the wolf.

I am not a scientist and I am not a wolf specialist. But I have read a lot on the subject and I have corresponded fairly frequently with our State and other State game department biologists on this subject. I'll tell you what I know and hopefully there are no factual errors here, as, quite truthfully, where facts are needed, FACTS are what I'd like to see. I do believe that what I state as fact is generally accepted to be so. My opinions I'll try to identify.

I apologise for the lengthy response. Maybe most won't read it but if some do, good. I think your questions are pretty factually oriented and don't engender a lot of emotion, so here goes...


Quote:

I can see the high emotion here....so let me ask some questions so that I can understand the issue better.

1. Are the wolves in the US not the same species as those in Canada, Alaska, Scandinavia, Russia, Spain, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Middle East, India etc? (I mean - like the Grizzly is the same species as the Brown Bear found in all these countries or the Wapiti is the same species as the Red Deer or maral stag of these countries).

First, legally and otherwise in the State, Red Deer are not the same as Wapiti, being of a different subspecies. By law they are determined different animals here. I am not certain if Red Deer are legal to own in Idaho anymore.

The taxonomic classification of wolves is an issue originally deemed settled by the US F&W Service {the ones that introduced the wolves}. Their position was that Canadian wolves, though quite a bit bigger than our indigenous wolves, are the same species, with no subspecies variation. The way our State Large Predator Manager put it to me was: "Like a large Alberta whitetail is the same as a small Florida whitetail".

However, further studies are ongoing. I do not know what the end result of this is going to be, but the point seems to be this, in really simple and "unscientific" terms; before Canadian wolves were introduced in various ecosytems, "a wolf was a wolf", except for the red wolf variation. Now there is some backtracking on that. Remember, and I know you do because you have a science background IIRC, taxonomy is about descriptions that may involve a certain level of subjective decision making.

And also, it is accepted as fact that Canadian wolves are bigger than what was/is here. They are really huge animals.

{EDIT; REMOVED PICTURES OF WOLF TRACK IN MY SKI TRACKS. THEY MADE THE SCREEN SIZE TOO LARGE}

Remember too that the overabundance of Canadian wolf stock proves the safety of the wolf as a species. THAT is why our Endangered Species Act here in the USA needs to be rewritten IMO and in the opinion of many others.


2 Is there any particular difference in the behaviour of the US wolves? Why are they such terrible killers compared to wolves in other areas?

Wolf sizes vary of course, and with that the ability to kill larger game. I cannot say they are "terrible killers compared to..." because I do not know that they are NOT terrible killers elsewhere. Arguing from ignorance is not my intent. What I can say is that historically, wolves have been hated in every culture I am aware of for a variety of reasons: effect on livestock, human safety and as a spreader of disease. Wolves, in my opinion, SEEM so warm and cuddly to many modernists because modern people haven't had to live with them in close proximity or compete with them for food stocks and over time the wolf has become the poster child for "the good ole days". In my opinion, living in close proximity to wolves and engaging in livestock and outdoor activities is the best way to convert a generally pro-wolf fellow into a wolf-hater. This is being done all over right now and is the reason for my general optimism as stated in the above post.

3 Are the wolves really so terrible or is the US elk & deer population now artificially high & unsustainable in the long term?

Any game population left unchecked can become unsustainable, or prone to disease, etc. The FACT of our high numbers of Western whitetail deer, elk and exploding moose populations is testament to the fabulous work of the State Game Departments as funded by HUNTERS through Pittman Robertson Act dollars and hunting licenses and some changes in habitat and environmental awareness. I am not "anti-environment" as some might like to imply. To the contrary. Wolves represent a terrible threat to our environment. Credit where credit is due; people HAVE very positively managed game for generations now, and wolves are a direct threat to those successes.

Game numbers are most easily adjusted by controllable management tools {tag sales, hunting quotas, etc} NOT by unrestricted and uncontrollable wolf activity. Even counting wolves is an incredibly difficult endeavor in our mountainous and timbered country. Game department officials will only state that we have a "minimum" number of wolves. They will not say how many more their may be. Remember, too, and most Easterners IMO in the USA do not understand this because conditions and habitat are so different West to East; In vast areas of the American West, the over-riding control on game numbers is WINTER. Many "soft" winters may pass with game numbers skyrocketing, then a "hard" winter occurs and it may take years for game numbers to rebound. This occured in '96 and now, in '08. Down in the Lochsa and Lolo drainages, various habitat problems have caused great trouble for elk recovery from the '96 winter, compounded by a growing wolf population for example. None of this is argued by our State game department folks.

One other ominous cloud hanging over the growth of wolf populations is the effect on game and the consequent effect on hunting license sales. Several game department officers have expressed to me their {IMO proper} concern about this. A simple fact is that wolf lovers do not contribute financially to game management in our State, hunters do. The cost of wolf management will have to be borne by...who? Hunters themselves and ultimately when funds dwindle, State tax revenue. This whole scenario promises to be interesting politics.

In effect, wolf introduction suggests that our European and American culture appears so fat and wealthy that we think we can take on a new mouth at the table, a mouth that never gives but rather always takes. The actual long term financial impact of wolf recovery was never made public to the public, and we are finding it out along the trail.



4 Are the wolves having such an impact because of the lack of buffalo in the ecosystem? In other countries they feed on migrating ungulates which move around a lot more.

To answer your question directly, the primary historical and present wolf prey species in Idaho, as told me by a number of biologists, is and was the wapiti, with adjustments to that diet based on availability and migration of wolves and the game they hunt. No, American bison were not the primary prey species.

However, the "ecosystem" you refer to {and here is the fact not liked by many in the pro-wolf camp} is the backyard of millions of people. It is not a virgin ecosystem unimpacted by human life and activity. That is important to know, because introduced wolves live at the good grace of people and need continued political support. When wolf numbers were high, people who had to live with them killed them because of the trouble the wolves caused. Modern Americans in the Lower 48 do not yet know what living next door to wolves is like. Adding wolves to this reality is NOT like adding wolves to the American West as it was in, say 1830 {as if the wolves were gone then}. Ultimately, every wolf kill impacts humans, and those who live where they have been dumped and where their numbers are now growing were never asked if they wanted wolves.

Regarding hunting... Hunting as a culture in Idaho has evolved around masterful management that led to the regrowth of big game populations thru the 1900's. At some point of wolf-caused ungulate decline, that culture will also decline, and the longterm effect on game numbers may be devastating. Meaning, in quite blunt terms, if all hunting becomes draw only, and the chance of killing an elk or deer is very small, the pursuit of those animals on a legal and sustainable basis may indeed disappear, with many people no longer caring what happens to the game they can no longer regularly hunt. Am I suggesting the widescale growth of poaching? I have been told directly by the State Large Predator Manager that wolves will directly effect hunting opportunity for people, to what degree it is unknown, but wolves will cause a restriction on hunting ungulates, not benefit it. Whether the local populations will accept that or not is yet to be seen. I can tell you this; the local folk of Africa, India, Idaho and elsewhere are probably quite similar. If it pays, it stays. Sorry, wolves don't pay. The understanding of that fact has prompted successful big game management everywhere. We forget it at our peril, and the peril of our big game. We have had a great thing going here in our hunting for several generations, and wolves threaten that culture. IF the State can shoulder wolf management and the State is allowed to set limits on wolf numbers, all may be fine. The problem is that the wolf-loving activists are very well-funded and seek to stop all wolf hunting by litigation and prevention of the establishment of hunting seasons. A few judges in various courts seem to favor the anti-hunters and wolf-lovers, and they promise to be trouble. Right now, the States have technical legal authority to manage wolves and can initiate hunting seasons. Whether that holds true till the start date of the hunting seasons has yet to be seen. Stay tuned.


May I suggest that we refrain from language that could be offensive. After all we do see extremes of human behaviour that is a lot worse than wolves & this has such a terrible impact on fellow humans.

Lets have some healthy discussions and enjoy the forum. JMTBW




Thanks for asking, and I do wish you well.

Also, Naki PM sent {pix}


--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (27/05/08 01:17 AM)


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3524
Loc: Colorado
Re: and they dont care [Re: Nakihunter]
      #107946 - 23/06/08 01:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....
In recent decades, the Jaguars that have been sighted in the US are as likely to be escapees or released from private owners as they are to be truly wild. We, here in the US, have a problem with stupid people releasing exotic pets .......... after all, the country with the greatest tiger population on earth is the good old USA.




I agree 100%. A full grown adult Jaguar or any other big cat will cross into new territory only if it needs new territory for food or for breeding. The SW may have some Coues deer, Javalina, Mulies & Elk that the cats can feed on. But are jaguars so abundant below the border that they need to colonise new territory a la whitetails in the north? If the territory had females in heat, people / researchers would hear them roaring when in heat. The odd animal sighted could be an escapee / released one or one that was chased north by dogs. I will believe that the Jaguar is a naturally occurring wild animal in the US when there is research proving breeding pairs are active for a full season & cubs are around for a while.

I hope no idiot releases a pair. The cubs would starve in all probability as the adults would not have learned to hunt large pray and they will need such pray to raise cubs.




Looks like this very thing just happened - single leopard though:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20080622/Dead.Leopard/

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: and they dont care [Re: Huvius]
      #108119 - 25/06/08 01:52 PM

Leopard in Missouri, this morning a local newspaper printed an article about a 300 pound black bear(likely wild, not released) being shot in Iowa. What's next?

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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