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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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mehulkamdar
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Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa
      #91726 - 16/12/07 11:56 AM

A friend alerted me to the news that Craig Klintworth's Mkonto Manufacturing had recently introduced an inline muzzleloader in regular as well as bore calibres.

Does anyone know anything about these guns?

Good hunting, everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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JohnTheGreek
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #92591 - 25/12/07 05:40 AM

For $2150USD, it's an unteresting piece for those who want an eight bore or bigger but aren't concerned with historical panache. Sure as hell beats the pricing of their "Selous Percussion Rifle" which is tagged at $5450USD BEFORE options like Octagon bbl (4500 Rand), Steel butt plate (2000 Rand) and Steel trigger guard (2000 Rand). Wow, these prices make me appreciate Jim Gefroh here in the US!

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Plains99
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #93361 - 04/01/08 02:45 AM

I had some consulting input on this gun when it was designed. I believe it should do quite well with traditional black powder available in South Africa. I have not gotten to handle and shoot one as of yet but look forward to it. Yes, it is pricey and I don't know how that will effect sales. With current RSA gun regulations it is a way for a hunter to get to the field with a new rifle without waiting for a couple of years. With the proper projectiles in adequate gauges or calibers it should be able to take as large a game as you want... as long as you are willing to deal with the recoil and the limitations of black powder. It is an alternative for the South Africans.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: Plains99]
      #93364 - 04/01/08 02:56 AM

What is a 'rand' worth in US $?
; Historically, Selous 4 bores were fairly light Dutch smoothbores, not rifles. I'm not familiar with anything smaller he may have used, ie: in 8, 10 or 12 bore.

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Daryl


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Plains99
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #93479 - 05/01/08 04:42 AM

Last time I was over there it was roughly 6 Rand to the Dollar. The Dutch guns were smooth bore 4 bores and I don't remember what he used when he transitioned to rounds like the .303 British. Frankly, I expect any 4 bore to be very punishing no matter how modern its design. I imagine that Mkonto will find that their .451 version will be their big seller and used primarily for African plains game.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #93526 - 05/01/08 04:26 PM

JTG.

No doubt there are vastly more beautiful guns available over here. Steve keeps posting pictures of his masterpieces which makes several of us believe that he is a most evil man.

I posted this one because it looked unusual and I wondered what more experienced members would have to say about it.

Good hunting everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #93555 - 06/01/08 02:09 AM

I checked the web site supplied in the first post. I see absolutely no point in shooting a modern rifle that loads from the muzzle.
: I can load any large bore (or whatever calibre) modern rifle - Mauser, Remington, Wichester, Weatherby, Rigby, H&H or whatever, from the muzzle with lead slugs or sabots, does that make it a muzzleloader?
:What's the point of those things? An excuse to extend one's hunting season - it certainly won't give the satisfaction one dervies from hunting with a real muzzleloader.
; I'm serious - any of the guys of this forum with double rifle who wants to shoot an inline - you already are, just change the way you load it - there's your muzzleoader right there. Shove the bullet down the bore to the mark on the rod, open the breech and prime with a case full of black powder and you have exactly the same thing as a bloody inline.
: In case you don't understand this - you merely use a bore size lead bullet that's .001" to .002" larger than the bore on one or two bands, or one of those silly plastic base band bullets with slightly oversize plastic base and bore size nose. I've done this in the .50/70 and .45/70's to get ore capacity in testing larger charges, similar to the 2.5 to 3-1/4" cases. To get greater capacity, you must load with a primed case in the chamber. Dump in the powder charge from the muzzle, then seat the easy loading bullet- people have been doing this for many years - Maynard centrefire breechloaders have been loaded that way since the 1850's. They supplied a steel case head that could be primed, then the rifle was loaded from the muzzle as any muzzleloader. This didn't turn the gun into a muzzleloader except in the maner in which it was loaded. It was still a breech loading gun.
; In the .458's Lyman sells a mould that casts 480gr. to 490gr. 'Whitworth' or "Volunteer Rifle" bullets at .451". These are loaded from the muzzle in any .458 rifle, same as they were in the original, but true muzzleloading rifles.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/01/08 02:28 AM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: Plains99]
      #93560 - 06/01/08 02:30 AM

Thanks for the explanation on the Rand vs $.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #93567 - 06/01/08 03:21 AM



You are correct Daryl.
The point is that "modern muzzleloaders" exist only to help men "cheat the system"
Muzzleloading season had at it's root the concept of using old fashioned guns like out forefathers did, to hunt in the same way. The industry then saw a way to make money and 'get around the regulations" by making rifles that are far more modern than a Winchester 30-30 or a Sharps 74, but still "fall within" the regulations.
Now, I don't have a thing against inlines and modern muzzleloaders. If you like them, use them. But I do have something against them being allowed a special season. I killed an antelope a few months ago with a S&W M-29 44 magnum, with stock sights and a 4" barrel. I made a good shot and killed it with 1 round. Never fired a 2nd round. I was proud of that. It was a good hunt and a good shot. i have done it many times in my life, and I never use scopes on my handguns.
I had to hunt in the regular season.

Now, is there anyone stupid enough to think that it would have been "more of a challenge" to kill that antelope with a modern plastic stocked, scoped, speed locked, waterproof, bullet firing, RIFLE than it was with a stock 4" revolver?
I don't think so.

But in most states here in the USA, if you hunt with a revolver, you hunt in the regular season. Not in a special season. If you hunt in muzzleloader season, you can use a modern rifle as long as it loads from the muzzle. Many can even use smokeless powder.
There's something wrong with that idea.
If loading from the muzzle is the only thing necessary to be "legal" then it would make sense to allow 60mm and 81 mm mortars too, as long as you take the explosive out of the shells.
Heck, they are not even rifled. They are "older" then the inlines you see today..........

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93577 - 06/01/08 04:54 AM

You say it much more eloquently than I could, Steve.
: Inlines were the final blow that took away our primitive hunt here, and therefore left a definite 'bad taste' in my mouth.
: I wrote more, but deleted it - nice day today, no sense spoiling it getting all worked up over garbage.
; Congratulations on your antelope.
: I have an invite to take an antelope at a friend's ranch in Montana some day, with my own 4" Smith. I've had one since I was in the 'Force', back in the 70's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93644 - 06/01/08 05:31 PM

Steve,

Beautifully put. But to expect any less would have been folly!

Please do post pictures of your hunt. You do know that I am the self appointed head of the committee of pesterers for gun and hunting pictures over here...

Very good hunting and thanks in advance!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #93657 - 07/01/08 12:09 AM

Hi Mehul.
I would be happy to do so, but the fact is that for many years I didn't even own a camera, and I seldom carry one when I hunt. I have none to post.

Sorry.
I may be able to get some from my hunting partners. They had cameras along. I will call and ask if they have some pics that could send to me.
Hope all is well with you, and all our readers.
Happy New year!

Steve

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93658 - 07/01/08 12:15 AM

I sure agree with all said above in regard to modern muzzleloaders. The special season is ruined in my opinion.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Dphariss
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #93734 - 07/01/08 01:56 PM

Quote:

A friend alerted me to the news that Craig Klintworth's Mkonto Manufacturing had recently introduced an inline muzzleloader in regular as well as bore calibres.

Does anyone know anything about these guns?

Good hunting, everyone!



If I can't say anything nice I guess I better not say anything.
Dan

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degoins
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: Dphariss]
      #93797 - 08/01/08 03:49 AM

Dern Steve,
You're the man!!! Congrats!!!

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Plains99
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: Dphariss]
      #93799 - 08/01/08 04:02 AM

I hunted South Africa with inlines because the company sponsored many of my costs and I agree with what is being said about inlines hurting the special season. South Africans enjoy no special season advantage by going to muzzleloaders so I suspect the appeal is to get around regulations that make it difficult to purchase new rifles. For foreign hunters there is a specific advantage to taking a primitive muzzleloader because they are not regulated upon entry... so I can take my .458, .375, and a nice historical replica muzzleloader and the muzzleloader will not count against my limit.
Frankly, when I hunted over there I did nothing with my muzzleloaders that I could not have done with a .45-70. I carried an inline double that was built for me as well as a bolt action inline. The bolt action was loaded with 435-grain sabots and the double was loaded with 600 grain conicals. Longest shot was 145 yards on a gemsbok.
A person with a good sporting rifle sidelock or double sidelock could do very well so there is little reason to take an inline into South Africa.
Mkonto's inline can be made less expensively with less fine gunsmithing so the price can be kept down... relatively speaking.... but I'd just as soon use a primitive gun.
The problem is the cost of historical replica guns in the bore sizes and the tremendous recoil generated by them. For those reasons I would probably not hunt dangerous game with one but for non dangerous game bushveld hunting a .50, .54, or even .58 would work very well with the proper projectiles and can be very rewarding as a hunting experience.

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: Plains99]
      #93810 - 08/01/08 06:17 AM

Well, I am unsure if I am correct here, but I looked at the prices they were asking and they were higher then what I charge for a hand made 8 bore or 4 bore rifle. If the Rand VS Dollar is what I think it is, they are not very inexpensive.

Maybe I am wrong here. I was not able to check their prices myself. I could not get the web site to work on my computer.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I find that 62, 66 and 72 caliber rifles are the most popular. These rifles don’t kick very much, and are easy to carry and shoot . 8 Bores are bigger, but still not bad to shoot. I sight in my rifles up to 8 bore before I ship them out.

4 bores hurt me. (I have never fired a 2 bore, and I never will.)

I build them, but I no longer sight them in. For customers that want one, I leave the front sights tall, and let them do the file work to bring it in. Then if they want a bead, they can return the barrel to me and I will install a bead at the same height they have it sighted for, at no charge

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DoubleD
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93812 - 08/01/08 07:20 AM

I got Rand at the Consulate this morning for R7.03 to the dollar. Radio said the exchange was 6.9

The last time I bought black powder October it cost me R450 a kg. $64USD. I called the magazine, they gave me a kg I gave them money. I had no choice as to brand or granualtion. They gave me Wano FFg this time. Last time I bought powder it was R300 a KG and I got Swiss No 5 (1 1/2 Fg)

I don't spend $700 (R5000) for a gun with a stamped steel trigger and stamped steel trigger guard attached to the stock with wood screws.

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DD, Ret.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DoubleD]
      #93859 - 08/01/08 09:38 PM

Steve - it you are selling your bore rifles for less than $2,143, you are giving them away. Taylor did that for years and finally started charging closer to what they're worth.
; I cannot imagine paying that kind of money for a piece of junk - that's what I saw on the African site - modern cheaply made junk at custom rifle prices.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #93879 - 09/01/08 02:43 AM


Oh no Daryl, my big bores are not that little. I was referring to the quote above of $5,450

I sell my Purdey and Rigby style rifles up to 66 caliber for about $3200, plus or minus some, depending on grade of wood, engraving and metal finish. My 8 bores go for about $3800. My 4 bores go for about $4,400 or more
Bigger costs more, because of the fact that fewer and fewer parts can be purchased as the scale gets bigger, and the bigger the barrel, the more wood you need to wrap around it. On 4 bores the wood has to be quite thick. Sometimes I have to pay more to have it sawn as thick as I need. Also a big rifle has to have the best grade of wood in hardness, to take the recoil. No fancy, but hard! Fancy cost more than plane, but so does hardness.

The bigger the rifle, the more hand work has to be done. Up to 66 caliber, parts can be purchased as raw castings from a few foundries, and I have to file fit them and polish. Only a few parts need be hand made in the 12 bore guns.
In 8s many parts have to be hand made and 4s have most parts made from bar stock.

Anyway........I too thought the pictures of the Mkonto guns looked very cheep and amateurish. Maybe they are better, but the pics sure don't look very good.
My comments were NOT supposed to be from a stance of competition, or advertising. Not at all.
I was only saying that I was shocked that they would ask so much for that grade of gun.

As a reference point, here's a rifle I sold for $3100, 2 years ago
I dare say it's a bit nicer than what they are advertising.


Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 11:17 AM)

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CowboyCS
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93901 - 09/01/08 12:36 PM

Quote:

Well, I am unsure if I am correct here, but I looked at the prices they were asking and they were higher then what I charge for a hand made 8 bore or 4 bore rifle. If the Rand VS Dollar is what I think it is, they are not very inexpensive.

Maybe I am wrong here. I was not able to check their prices myself. I could not get the web site to work on my computer.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I find that 62, 66 and 72 caliber rifles are the most popular. These rifles don’t kick very much, and are easy to carry and shoot . 8 Bores are bigger, but still not bad to shoot. I sight in my rifles up to 8 bore before I ship them out.

4 bores hurt me. (I have never fired a 2 bore, and I never will.)

I build them, but I no longer sight them in. For customers that want one, I leave the front sights tall, and let them do the file work to bring it in. Then if they want a bead, they can return the barrel to me and I will install a bead at the same height they have it sighted for, at no charge



Yeah and he's run out of friends that will volunteer, and permanantly damaged to many apprentices to get them to do it for him. He's even tried bribery of children. Or at least he tried to bribe my children into doing it.

C

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CowboyCS]
      #93916 - 09/01/08 03:40 PM

Well Colin, at least I offered to pay them. You just order them to do it and don't pay them.


And you're still whining after all these years? I know the bones have healed up by now. Why can't you just forget about it and let by-gones be by-gones?

(I have a 2 bore coming up. Wanna play... ?

FORGET!
FORGET!!!!!!

LOOK AT THE WATCH --------- AND FORGET----------------------
you like shooting BIG RIFLES!
You like shooting BIG RIFLES!!!

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93942 - 09/01/08 11:38 PM

I'm still tender after the cortisone injection two days ago. Right shoulder should be OK by summer - maybe.
: Your prices are OK, and inline with what that rifle (or one like it) was valued to be $3,200 to $3,500 a few years back by Taylor. You do very nice work, Steve and should be paid for your time and expertise.
: We here in the West, we are much luckier than those in Europe and the European union concerning firearms pricing. It's difficult to swallow what our friends there have to pay, and what they seem willing to pay for junk. Someone there is making a LOT of money on those ML's. The parts, aside from the barrel appear to be very cheap indeed. The old .22 Ace single shot I had as a 10 year old boy in Ontario had better wood and more pleasing lines than that S. African inine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #93953 - 10/01/08 03:17 AM

Thank You Daryl, for your kind words.


I agree, the South African offering is priced at a level that is almost beyond' high"
It's actually bordering on insulting.
As if to say to the public "you are all stupid, and now it's time to fleece you"

It makes me wonder about the ethics of their entire business. I cannot speak for others, but I for one, would avoid anything they made after seeing this.

Edited by Daryl_S (20/01/12 06:58 AM)

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Plains99
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: szihn]
      #93955 - 10/01/08 04:11 AM

That is certainly a beautiful rifle. It sure meets the spirit of the South African regulations and what a big bore muzzleloader should look like for hunting over there.

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