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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #355328 - 19/07/21 05:26 AM

Either in a lathe, or by doing this:
This is a picture from my own file - my gun, my hand, my messy bench - hand-cuff pouch hanging on a nail between the file card and square - LOL. Rotate the wrist, rotate the barrel now and then. Should be done from your machined 'crown' in about 45 seconds.
The thinnest patches I normally use, compress with caliper tines squeezed between forefinger and thumb as hard as I can, comes in at .021". Non-squeezed thickness is immaterial/of no use.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #355331 - 19/07/21 09:52 AM

Thanks. Yes, that's exactly what I did before the picture with the screw contraption was taken. Having the reamers I could experiment and recut easily if I wasn't happy.

One thing to mention to others wanting to replicate the funnel shaped crown. I made a bunch of half by half inch squares with a p600 grit sandpaper. I used those squares wrapped around my finger (counting same number of sanding moves every 30 deg of barrel rotation, swapping for new square after each 30 degree step to ensure same sandpaper state). This counting may have been a bit of an overkill for a short range rifle. I'll explain why later.

In the end I reverted to a much shorter 45 degree crown for mostly esthetic reasons, but I kept a slightly larger ball/patch combo.

I was loading a 58 cal howdah right next to my Kodiak with the same thick patch/ball combo. The Howdah had my short 45 degree crown polished with a slightly oversized lead round ball and polishing paste (the ball confirms to the muzzle shape somewhat so it removes all sharp angles). The Howdah was perhaps very slightly harder to start, but I can't be certain the barrels are not very slightly smaller. At the time I realised I much prefer the angled look of a "machine cut crown" (despite it being really cut by hand reamers).

So that's why I went back to the 45 degrees with the Kodiak. I didn't notice any difference in loading patched round ball (I did notice loading REALs and Minnie's was easier with the funnel.) or on target afterwards between the two. That is not to say there isn't a difference between a manufacturer cut crown and Darryl's. Both crowns tested were cut by myself. That's what I'm comparing here.

I encourage others to experiment with regards to the crowns of their rifles and to find what they like best. Worst case scenario is it will need recrowning.

One more thing I did is also polishing the whole lengths of both bores slightly with 0000 steel wool wrapped around a brass ramrod end. The whole ramrod was spinned at around 300 rpm by a cordless drill and a plastic muzzle protector was used. Again this was done for esthetic reasons. I didn't notice any difference on the target after.

Regarding possible precision of a finger sanded crown I think it is sufficient for patched round ball rifles at up to 75m at least. One of experiments I did with those barrels was checking if the point of impact can be moved by (lightly) opening the crown more on a side one wants to move poi against. The amount of material removed was no more than 1~2 thou with my sandpaper squares right at the range. Interestingly I saw no difference in poi with a patched round ball at the distance of 50m when I deliberately made the crown egg shaped by 1~2 thou. No doubt use of conicals would be a different story. Also no doubt removing more material would have some effect, but I was only interested if poi can be pushed by very light manual sanding. This shows that sanding a crown less than ideally by 1~2 thou is not going to break a hunting prb shooting rifle. This experiment was done when I was committed to recutting the crown anyway. It is round to a couple tenths now.

Finally, about patch thicknesses. Where I am located there are no cloth shops left where one can go with a micrometer and check lots of fabrics to find one to buy unfortunately.

The only way to get cloth is to order online by specifying the type (it is usually called plain cotton, heavy variants are also called denim in some shops) and the weight in grams per square meter. I managed to get all weights available between 120 and 300 grams before.(120g compresses to 7 thou, 300 to slightly below 20 thou, other useful weights for patching are 230,280 and 180. 120 is really only good for cleaning with as it is not only thinner, but also less dense IMO).


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #355351 - 20/07/21 01:09 AM

My "hand-cut/sanded" crown has made 5 shot groups at 100 meters, shot of the sand bags and bench rest with my .69 rifle, of 1" to 1 1/2" with it's open sights.

It's best group at 200yards (not meters) was 2 1/2" for 5 shots, made the same day as my bro also made a 2 1/2" 5 shot group at 200yards using his .62 calibre Hawken - .021" denim (10 ounce per yard) patch and .615" ball. His rifle used 127gr. 2F GOEX while mine used 140gr. 2F GOEX.
These crowns are not coned. The edges/corners of machine-cut crowns are smoothed into a rounded shape, is all.
This allows the soft lead ball and patch to conform into the bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ironoxide
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Reged: 14/08/19
Posts: 28
Loc: Poland
Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #355378 - 20/07/21 10:14 AM

Quote:

My "hand-cut/sanded" crown has made 5 shot groups at 100 meters, shot of the sand bags and bench rest with my .69 rifle, of 1" to 1 1/2" with it's open sights.

It's best group at 200yards (not meters) was 2 1/2" for 5 shots, made the same day as my bro also made a 2 1/2" 5 shot group at 200yards using his .62 calibre Hawken - .021" denim (10 ounce per yard) patch and .615" ball. His rifle used 127gr. 2F GOEX while mine used 140gr. 2F GOEX.





Is your.69 cal a double? I'm asking because the quote from "Shooting the british double rifle" by Graeme Wright about average 3 inch group sizes at 50m is specifically about large(ish) bore doubles shooting patched round ball with black powder. I also assume he meant short barreled doubles of 24 or less inches, but that's just me. The author has been shooting hundreds of doubles doing research for many years etc so I believe him when he makes a statement like that regarding round ball shooting large bore black powder doubles. This comes from the third edition of the book chapter titled "Accuracy".

The Hawken is of course a single barrel rifle. If we are talking about single barrel rifles here I'm very much interested in finding out the barrel length of your .69 cal. (I assume Hawken is 28in). I never found anyone who could shoot such groups with barrels shorter than 26 inches. I'm still looking,but that is a completely different subject that interests me.

Those groups you report are very good, but it is possible to shoot like this with a 45 deg crown providing it is not sharp and free from burrs. I provide my example from few days ago below.

My single barrel muzzleloader (flinter no less -.54 cal Frontier shooting patched round ball in front of 80 grains of 3f) with a factory Pedersoli crown (looks like 45 degrees) smoothed by a method with a lead ball shot a 5 shot group around ~0.7 inch big at 100m(measured center to center as per modern practice).

So here is the target at 100m showing 10 shots when I was doing load development. I shot the 5 that are sprayed all over the target using a different patch thickness. Then I changed the patching material and I shot next 5 into one big hole. The large hole end to end is about an inch, center to center it is around .7.


No sand filled bags were used, but a wooden rest at a bench (the rear of the rifle was shouldered normally). I found I'm getting better groups this way with this particular rifle as it is very light weighting only 3.3kg (7.2 pounds) and long barreled (44 inches, 8 land very shallow rifling octagon barrel).

The rifle has a large buckhorn style rear sight mounted on the barrel a hand width in front of its center of mass and a typical leaf as a front sight.

I have another patched round ball rifle capable of shooting through the same hole at 50m and ragged 1 inch holes at 100m. However it is a small caliber. 38 cal. It is also a Pedersoli. Made in the 1970-s long thin octagon barreled (looks 40~44 inch) Plainsman caplock rifle I show the muzzle of earlier in the thread. That rifle uses a simple front post and a rear notch barrel mounted just in front of the center of weight. Interestingly it has a muzzle coned by the previous owner.

Still it was my most accurate muzzleloader at the time with which I recently won a local black powder rifle target contest shooting 26 shots(2 contests consisting of 13 shots each, without break or cleaning the rifle during a total of 26 shots) , in standing position (off hand - no sling, no support) at 50m. I managed all my shots hitting 8 or better (5 inches). It is not "national level" shooting but I'm pretty happy with it. Of course I had to use a looser patch/ball combo for the contest than one shooting best from the bench due to no cleaning requirement. However as this was off hand I don't think it made a difference.


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