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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Sarg
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Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic
      #314655 - 29/03/18 02:43 PM

Reading about & seeing Cordite's beautiful 12bore Double rifle, made me remember my old Blanch 12bore Double Rifle relic I found in the corner of a gunsmiths back room, I saw it as I walked pass & said to myself "that has thick barrels for a shotgun", so I picked it up & saw it had rifled barrels with a LOT of parts missing so I didnt pay a lot for it !

Only have the stock with me right now, no hammers, triggers or trigger guard were with this old girl !

Well made back in the day I think, it has a small tack in the top of the stock that the heel/butt plate slides into the keep the long top tang down & this weird thing in the butt, any one know what this is for ?

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bouldersmith
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #314678 - 30/03/18 01:05 AM

Blanch was a GREAT maker. Is that one still a finter?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: bouldersmith]
      #314693 - 30/03/18 04:54 AM

The wood almost looks like Curly Ash, from the growth ring structure. That also might be due to the advanced "state" of it's condition.
Good quality parts, though.
Wonder if that rod in the butt travels up through the wrist?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #314701 - 30/03/18 08:16 AM

I found some photos on my phone of the rest of it, barrels dont look so heavy in the pics .

So that light wire could be some kind of reinforcing rod, seems a bit light, the wood looks like Oak or some thing (Ash maybe I don't know that timber) that has been burnt/scorched ?

It is percussion now, I thought he might have been a Flinter in his Youth ?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #314732 - 30/03/18 05:25 PM

By the looks of those fences, was always percussion.

Red oak was also another guess on the wood, but ash more likely and obviously a replacement this side of the pond as neither species would (ha!) have been used in England.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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cordite
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #314770 - 31/03/18 01:26 AM

Wouldn't you like to know where it has been and how it got to its current condition. Bet there are some stories there.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: cordite]
      #314775 - 31/03/18 04:53 AM

Yes - used hard it was. The rifling style looks similar to my bro's Joseph Lang 16 bore single.

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Daryl


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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #314779 - 31/03/18 08:07 AM

wonder if the rod screws into the back of the false breech. Looks like you have some work in front of you to bring her back up to proper shooting order !!

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #314780 - 31/03/18 08:22 AM

Oh yes, this rifle has done a lot, I know it spent most of its life in Africa as that is where I found it !

Im not to sure it will be fired again but that would be cool, I have a single 12bore to that might get shot if I get that home .

I am very curious to know what that rods purpose is ?

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #314801 - 31/03/18 09:51 PM

The rod may be to reinforce the rifles wrist, that is why I asked if it screwed into the back of the false ( standing breech)

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #314808 - 01/04/18 04:53 AM

If that is the engraved part at the back, that the barrels would fit into, no I don't see it screwing into it ?

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #314813 - 01/04/18 08:24 AM

Yes that is the bit I am talking about .

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #314843 - 02/04/18 02:53 AM

The steel rod through the butt quite unlikely screws into the hooked tang, referred to above as "the engraved part at the back".

There is a hole at the back of tang that takes the hook of the breech, thus there is no where for the 'rod' to screw into. It is most unlikely that the rod actually screws into the back of the breech's hook.

What is likely, is that the rod merely reinforces the wrist of the rifle.

Hooked breeches are VERY common on English guns and less so on American guns of the same period, except for rifles such as the Hawken rifles of St. Louis as well as other 'plains-type' rifles of the period. The British design influence was strong in these guns - apart from the hooked breeches on many.

"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" has a nice picture of an 11 bore single shot rifle made in San, Francisco you would swear came out of London about mid 1850's, complete with Alex-Henry-looking lock complete with drip bar, and of course, a hooked breech as on the double rifle of this thread.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #314857 - 02/04/18 08:54 AM

Hooked breeches were always on better quality rifles, much easier to strip for cleaning and putting into your fitted case! - just push out the fore end peg and off come the barrels, replacement equally simple

The hook holds the barrels to the standing breech most securely

TH44

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: TH44]
      #314890 - 02/04/18 07:03 PM

It also makes cleaning the barrel a real pleasure. My bore rifle has a hooked breech and as its been cleaned properly the corrosive caps have done little to no damage at both inside and outside the breech.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #314918 - 03/04/18 01:15 PM

Same with Taylor's 16 bore Joseph Lang.

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Daryl


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Longknife
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #316091 - 05/05/18 12:00 AM










I'm not convinced that this rifle was made as a percussion gun. If you look at the top photo above the lock you can see where the stock was relieved for the flint hammer "stop". To those of you that are not familiar with flintlocks, on a percussion gun, the hammer fall is halted by the nipple, on a flint gun, the hammer is slightly off set with a step in the back of it and that step comes to rest on the top of the lock plate. It is necessary to then relieve the wood a bit to clear the hammer "step". Also in that same photo do I see on the front upper part of the lock plate a plugged hole where the frizzen may have been attached? I would liker to see the inside of the plate to confirm......Also, if you look at the second photo you can see where the wood under the lock plate in the bottom of the barrel channel has been cut out and "squared", was this for the pan "bolster to clear?,,,,Just wondering,,,,,,????...Ed

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (05/05/18 12:08 AM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Longknife]
      #316092 - 05/05/18 01:20 AM

I understand what you are talking about Ed - new locks and breeches to fit the original tang would not be a difficult change, however.
I see the plugged screw hole you are talking about, but think these are cap lock plates from the get-go. I am not familiar with such rear screw hole, behind the pan location. I think rather, this are lock plates from another gun, made to fit this one, by filling the cross bolt and re-drilling and tapping a hole further back, above the bolster boss.
That hole up front does look like a feather spring hole, however, might simply be the hole for the main spring pin.

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Daryl


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Longknife
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #316163 - 07/05/18 12:09 AM

I can not comment about what modifications might have been done to these locks over the past 200 years without a closer examination. BUT,,,, I can say,, that with the upper lock panels cut out for clearance of a flint hammer that this gun, at one time, was a flintlock,, I have no doubt about that!!!...Ed

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Longknife

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Longknife]
      #325050 - 23/02/19 08:12 AM

There are some outfits in England that supply castings so you may be able to get this rifle sorted, Peter Dyson and Son is one firm, I reckon this rifle is well worth setting back up.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #325056 - 23/02/19 09:14 AM

Too - the rifling appears to have been bored out.
Is there a rear sight, or perhaps plugged dovetail slot for one?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325143 - 25/02/19 10:55 AM

The Old fella has rear sights & the bore is better than I thought, it only looks like that in the photo as that is far as my finger went down the bore when I stuck it in.

The rifling looks to be very slow twist & might even be shoot-able ?

One of the locks is stuck & the screw for the lock has been butchered, that is how it lost all its bits I bet, went some where to get fixed, half pulled apart and .....

It actually feels good in the hand .

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #325160 - 25/02/19 06:13 PM

Here are breech and muzzle of my bro's 16 bore Joseph Lang. Made in 1853 It shoots as beautifully as it looks.

Breech:

Muzzle:


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325161 - 25/02/19 06:14 PM

Sarg - a restoration is in order. You are in luck. Gordon is 'reasonably' close by to help.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325166 - 25/02/19 07:29 PM

Daryl, that is a beautiful rifle, how is it that it remains in such condition after these years, amazing ?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #325182 - 26/02/19 06:21 AM

Actually, it was in better condition 15 or 20 years ago. The fellow who owned it, played with it with all the finesse of a baboon - marking the stock around the barrel wedge escutchions, cheek piece, etc.
When our friend Don. R. saw it 'again' at a gun show, he paid the price just to get it out of the hands of that man. When Don saw it the first time, he noted it looked as if it was just made - and unfired. Of course the fine checking in the finish (& the gun itself) gave it's age away.
My Bro bought it from Don.
The rate of twist is a little fast at 1 in 48", but that makes it shoot well with lighter powder charges.





I was hesitant to post these pictures, but, what the hay. It needs to be seen.

Here is a facsimile of a 5 shot group at 100 metres off the bags. Incidently, we shot this 'match' for "lunch"- Taylor had to buy. My .69 did a bit better, even though I pulled one. Mine were over the 10 ring. Hs rifle, not adjusted since 1853, shot a bit low. Another 20 gr. would have done it. The ball weight for my rifle was 465gr., not .482gr.
His target, not bad for a 166 year old rifle, without ANY load developement. Just an educated guess.

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325186 - 26/02/19 07:00 AM

Fantastic, it gets better & man you guys can shoot to Eh !

That is a beautiful rife, I think these old English single rifles are a bit under rated in this day & times.

my ageing eyes are useless with open sights now days, cant even use the bow that well any more .

I'm now even more embarrassed of my old banger's & ability lol !

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93x64mm
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325187 - 26/02/19 07:05 AM

Wow that's good shooting Daryl by any means & with open sights too!
Glad your mate 'saved' it for your brother....in far better hands now, definitely one to treasure.

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: 93x64mm]
      #325193 - 26/02/19 09:36 AM









Might give a better idea, Man I wish it was like Taylor's rifle in condition & then in 8-4 Bore lol !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #325224 - 27/02/19 06:41 AM

The breeches should be pulled, so a good HARD look at the condition and depth of pitting can be surmised. A good 90 degree bore scope would be even better.

If Ok, I would most certainly do a restoration attempt.

Not sure why it is so beat up on the muzzles, but what the hay - it's certainly re-crownable.

Emery and a coned piece of wood (or emery around a tapered stone - rotated in the muzzle), then the end of your thumb will do a splendid job.





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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325233 - 27/02/19 09:14 AM

Daryl, your brothers' rifle is lovely and no surprise it shoots a treat. I am gradually getting around to re soft soldering my Hollises' underib.
I reckon Sarges' old double has been converted to percussion, I bet it is fitted with Nock patent breeches, see the timber above the lock has been relieved to the flint cock to sit, and the lock plats look like they have been modified. Give the breeches a good soak for a few weeks in 50/50 acetone and auto trans fluid if you are going to have a crack at removing the breeches, but I think a good optic fibre tool would be the go first up, relatively cheap of eBay.
Looks like the maker is J Manton ?

Edited by Heelerau (27/02/19 09:15 AM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Heelerau]
      #325239 - 27/02/19 10:48 AM

Does look like J.Manton on the top rib.
Those safety vents shown by the flash channel shown by the vent, makes it certainly fit a standard patent breech, to me. Could be wrong, most certainly.
I would expect a flint gun to have a longer forend, but indeed, it could be a re-stocking job, at any time.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325242 - 27/02/19 11:08 AM

Here's Taylor's 15 bore J. Manton.
It works very well on grouse.







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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325246 - 27/02/19 01:24 PM

Daryl, I think the Old guy has lead a full life & shows signs of that, be nice just to get it looking complete really .

Has Blanch on the Locks & part of Blanch London on the part where the nipples are, it has had a bash or three & is a bit hard to read.

One thing on here is we are getting to see some neat of Old Front Stuffers from Daryl lol !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #325261 - 28/02/19 04:37 AM

I agree - new 'tubes', hammers, T-guard and triggers will go a long way to making it look better. Needs a rod, too.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325272 - 28/02/19 07:24 PM

Yes It was meant to have a rod, is "tubes" nipples for the caps ?

Be a job getting the buggers out .

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: Sarg]
      #325299 - 01/03/19 01:41 PM

Yes - time past, the nipples were called tubes. By the mid 1800's, they had a restrictive opening, either top, or bottom, to limit pressure coming up the 'tube' and setting the hammer to 1/2 cock position.
Through the 1870's and 80's, ere were a number of cheap production cap-locks which did exactly that, but oft times, it was due to the locks having a coil spring as well as not enough height to the cock, at 1/2 bent position.(1/2 cock).

What a lot of people do not realize, that is when shooting bullets, conicals, minnies, etc, - elongated bullets, - the breech pressure is greatly increased, and the restrictive little hole gets burned out prematurely.
Back in the mid to late 70's when I was shooting bullets from a Bauska 38" twist .50, I replaced the nipple once a week and cut off and re-crowned the muzzle every 200 shots. That was due to using a fiberglass rod, which wore the muzzle from 1" groups to 2" groups in 200 shots. I had apertures at that time and the gun was an easy MOA rifle. I was also shooting modern 3-postion and prone competition at the time, using both optics and apertures.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Blanch 12bore Double Rifle Relic [Re: DarylS]
      #325302 - 01/03/19 05:17 PM

Here is my mates Joseph Egg, 16 gauge, just had a set of custom cones made for it. Just got my second crow this morning off the back stoop, was sitting enjoying a cup of tea reading Col Forsythes' book on Sporting Arms and Ammunion, when a crow flew past and landed in the fig tree. [image]http://P1030164 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr[/image] [image]P1030165 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr[/image]

Edited by Heelerau (01/03/19 05:24 PM)

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