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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#370862 - 29/10/22 05:34 AM

J. Adam Kuchenreuter in Regensburg,1840/50 11mm caliber https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=18491056

V. D. FECHT JUN. À. BERLIN, 1780/90, 14,5 mm caliber https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=18483390

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3975
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#370867 - 29/10/22 07:15 AM

Beautiful craftsmanship & time capsules!
Thanks for sharing Lancaster

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: 93x64mm]
#370882 - 29/10/22 02:05 PM

Yes indeed. The muzzle treatment is also unique to "Period" German made Jaegers rifles.
Many were simply filed out in the lands and grooves. Even American makers of the 1800's did this to some guns. This filing out of the muzzle, allows the loading of tight ball and patch combinations, which results in much more accurate shooting.
In Germany, the filing sometimes was quite elaborate as seen in this rifle. Today's makers in the States call this "treatment" a Hienied or Heinied crown.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#371416 - 13/11/22 05:45 AM

early breechloder by T.Conway/Manchester https://auctionet.com/de/2524381-kammerladegewehr-design-t-conway-manchester-um-1850
11mm caliber, looks like there is an anvil for small muzzle loader primer in the chamber

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372338 - 16/12/22 03:01 AM

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=18960221

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372345 - 16/12/22 06:01 AM

Crowd control gun.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#372357 - 16/12/22 10:28 AM

realy like to see a big paper shoot with this how it works and if it works in the way the maker thought it would do.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372398 - 17/12/22 12:13 PM

Quote:

realy like to see a big paper shoot with this how it works and if it works in the way the maker thought it would do.

Loaded 3 Drams with broken glass, screws, nuts, bolts, fishing sinkers

- Mike

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"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
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“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372409 - 18/12/22 04:09 AM

Quote:

realy like to see a big paper shoot with this how it works and if it works in the way the maker thought it would do.

I recall back in the 70's someone got their hands on a gun like this one, tested it and reported that it shot round patterns, just like any other shotgun. I might have dreamed that - talking almost 50 years ago.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#372415 - 18/12/22 06:21 AM

I believe what you say,imho, to get a wide target you have to press the pellets through a special choke bore.
think its possible and you can find out what you need with work and money.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372912 - 06/01/23 08:03 PM

https://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/m-now...longi/i6324203/

M. Nowotny, Vienna. Particularly rare rifled carbine, approx. 1840. With chamber charging system. Engraved lock etc. Octagonal pipe. Tool in the flask. L: 84 cm. Accompanied by belt, associated ball tongs and powder blackpowder bag marked 'Fiebig in Odense'.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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LRF
.333 member

Reged: 28/03/11
Posts: 307
Loc: minnesota ,usa

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372921 - 06/01/23 10:39 PM

This is certainly one very nice carbine and thank you for sharing.

I am quite impressed with the workmanship of the overall weapon and also the bullet mold itself with regards to fit and finish. A total utilitarian item but finished to a level of art. This I am sure was an expensive piece when first made.

I didn't see any mention of bore size, just curious about what the caliber is of the carbine? I suppose one could estimate it by comparing some of the pictures and then guessing at reasonable known dimensions of firearms. For example I would estimate the width of the breech to be around 1.250" (31-32 mm). Then maybe one could work out what the powder charge may be. Just musing on a cold winter's morn.

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DarylS
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Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: LRF]
#372925 - 07/01/23 04:47 AM

Weird- not sure of the ignition system- internal hammer attached to the outside hammer perhaps striking the central stud thing in the rear of the breech-block. If the nipple, it has been smashed shut by dry-firing.
Interesting mould that casts small round projectile with grooves matching the barrel's rifling already on the projectile.
It appears to 'take' a very small charge.
Well made "piece" that would not be inexpensive.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#372935 - 07/01/23 07:04 AM

you load one of this bullets in front, it probably sticks when you press it in. than set a primer on the nippel and fill the powder load into the chamber. obviously the outside hammer must cock an internal firing pin, maybe an internal hammer who hits on a firing pin. I don't believe an internal hammer hits the primer because it would be to complicated to seal the chamber if a hammer move into this. a hole for a firing pin is much easier.
I believe the reason for this bullets with groove is you lost a good part of the powder energy when the bullet have to be forced into the rifling of the barrel.

think we agree that this is a first class gun

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#372942 - 07/01/23 12:11 PM

With two days to go it's at over €4k

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: tinker]
#372954 - 08/01/23 02:52 AM

Quote:

Weird- not sure of the ignition system- internal hammer attached to the outside hammer perhaps striking the central stud thing in the rear of the breech-block. If the nipple, it has been smashed shut by dry-firing.

These “System Berenger” guns were forerunners of the slightly later Flobert guns in a way. They did not use a separate powder charge, but a special primer, about .400” diameter, that contained priming compound and a bit of powder. That stud in the chamber is an anvil, just like the anvil in a Berdan case. Here is a video on another such Berenger rifle. Near the end you may see a better image of the stud/anvil and the holes around, connecting primer-charge to the front part of the chamber and the barrel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z8h-lCPDsc

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DarylS
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Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: kuduae]
#372955 - 08/01/23 03:33 AM

Tks - that explains it, when he turned the guns sideways so the "idea" of a berdan-type ignition could be seen. If the priming was in a copper cup that helps seal the system it would be less of a burden to clean, otherwise, a nightmare. Maybe a nightmare anyway. It would have to use very small powder charge, or would become fouled very quickly or possibly blow the gun up from escaping gasses to the rear around the internal striker.
The metal action supports this premise.
The rifled balls are a "mechanical fit", instead of using a normal cloth patch. The bore would become badly fouled as well, if anything but a tiny charge was used.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#373840 - 05/02/23 07:16 AM

an austrian model of 1768 double stutzen, maybe a the only o/u combination gun ever used by the military https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/mi...-m-1768--448169

this is a rifle - shotgun combination or better a combination of a jaeger rifle and a smmoothbore musket to shoot the bullet with the rifle when having the time to load or use the smoothbore when in need. this was the gun for the special border jaeger units on the southern border agains the turks, a very rare muzzle loader today.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#373842 - 05/02/23 07:32 AM

another rare austrian muzzle loader, a jaeger stutzen system augustin
https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/militaria/v-e-r-k-a-u-f-t-augustin-jaegerstutzen--452451

an early percussion primed system that dont use caps but had the primer compound in something looking like a little sausage that was hanging on the paper cartridge

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#373849 - 05/02/23 11:01 AM

Neat!!

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#374975 - 09/03/23 06:20 AM

maybe german made Jaeger rifle with hunting dagger as bayonet https://auctionet.com/de/2711697-patch-stossstange-wohl-deutschland-19-jahrhundert

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#374994 - 09/03/23 12:06 PM

Interesting the blade seems to have only been sharpened back 8" or so from the tip and only on the upper edge.
Similar bayonet mount that was on the Baker rifle, also a sword.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#374997 - 09/03/23 05:44 PM

the sword bayonet is something we call in german "Hirschfänger"
its hard to translate, meaning is to intersept the deer, common english translation is imho, hunting dagger but this dont get it realy.

the "Hirschfänger" was the symbol of the hunter trained for deer hunting in a time when hunter was a proffesion you have to be trained for years and this for different game.
in the beginning in length between a sword and a dagger it became a status symbol to the end of the 19. century and so lighter and shorter.

18. century hirschfänger

1930s

the military hunter units start to use the hirschfänger as bayonet and this goes back to some civil rifles like this one with checkering showing it was a private rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: lancaster]
#375015 - 10/03/23 03:23 AM

I have heard this called "The Hunting Sword".

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: muzzle loader at auction [Re: DarylS]
#375024 - 10/03/23 07:52 AM

the mediavel hunting sword was much longer so you can reach the game from the saddle of your horse.

the Hirschfänger was shorter so you can run in the woods, Johann Elias Ridinger show it here how you kill the Deer with the Hirschfänger

the 18. century was endless specialised, there is a similar short saber , called Jagdplaute

that was used to hold the deer on the place when the hounds catch him until the monarch arive to kill the deer with the hirschfänger. for that purpose a hunter go to the deer from behind to cut the achilles tendons of the deer with the Jagdplaute so the deer could not move anymore.

sounds brutal but those were the times. the deer was so ful with adrenaline after the parfoce hunt he probaly don't notice it anymore but focus on the hounds around him.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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