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beleg2
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Daryls paper patched RBs.
      #137059 - 10/06/09 06:14 AM


Some days ago I tried a method that Daryl explains a couple of times.
That is a paper cone with powder and a round ball.
I used only paper and balls and it works fine shooting at 50 meters (55 yds.).
It was very easy to load first one and second a little harder. I swab the bore and load the third charge. Then multiply it by 2 as it is my Kodiak double rifle. LOL
As you can see on the target (well you cannot see it), first shot, right barrel was out, down and to the left. You can see left barrel bullet as “1”. The recoil and sound of the right barrel was unusual and light, I think I tear the paper when I load.
Second pair was OK (“2”) and, as it was a little difficult to load I swab the barrels and load for a third time, you can see those as “3”.
Accuracy was the usual for me and the rifle as I shot without a rest.



I thought you would be interested in this test.
It looks promising but I have no RB left I will cast some and try again.

Thanks
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #137104 - 11/06/09 01:18 AM

Good offhand shooting Martin. Looks as it the 'after-cleaning' rounds went a bit wild.

Martin - my paper ctgs. were a very tight fit in the muzzle as the rifling engraved some into the paper. I had to choke up on the rod & push quite heavily to get them started. After that, they loaded easily the rest of the way.

I take it you are ripping the pointy (or square) end off, pouring the powder in, stuffing the ctg. in with the loose, empty paper down, ball-up. This way, the paper is wadded up between the ball and the powder, giving a good seal.

Now, if the paper is tearing at the muzzle, the muzzle's crown needs smoothing - or the paper's strength you are using isn't up to the job. I used about 20 pound paper with a ball only .006" smaller than the bore, with both WW alloys and pure lead.

Here's what my ctgs. look like. They can be carried in a pocket or in a 'pouch' like the cheap 'Hunter' brand ammo pouch I used. It is meant to hold a full 20 round box of centrefire bullets. I made a wooden block to fit inside, drilling holes in the block to hold the paper ctgs.

Be advised that you could run some sort of lubricant on the outside of the ctg. where the ball is located. Make certain it is a black powder lube. I'd use SPG, Lymans BP Gold or some other. If the lube is melted, the ctgs. could easily be dipped in it to lube. Th is would allow more shots before wiping or a lubed and patched ball is fired with a redcued charge, say 70 to 80gr. or so. This is how I 'clean' my bore after firing ctgs. I can fire 10 rounds of paper ctg.s with same accuracy as patched round ball, then fire a 3 dram BP load with patched ball, then I'm OK for another 10 rounds of ctgs. This is all from my 14 bore rifle, which is very accurate at 100 meters - 1.2 to 1.5". The paper ctgs. shoot to the same point of impact and group size as patched balls do. Excellent hunting loads in the larger bored guns.

The reason I use tapered ctgs. rather than the more-period correct military ones that were straight sided, is the tapered ones are more easily carried, fit the hand well and when ripping off the small end to pour in the powder, very little powder is lost. With the larger, square ended ones the military used, when tearing off the end, a large diameter of paper is torn off and a lot of powder can be spilled. The tapered end prevents this. Rip off the end with your teeth, shove the small end into the bore and the ball stops it at the muzzle. By the time you have the rod out, the powder has all drained into the chamber of the gun. Push the call down compressing the wad of paper beneath it, cap and fire! Have fun.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #137112 - 11/06/09 04:28 AM


Thanks for the advises, I missed the lubeing.
Do you lube all the paper cartridge or only over the ball?


Thansk
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #137163 - 11/06/09 11:26 PM

I would lube over the ball only. I've never lubed them myself - but others have. If the whole tube was lubed, bending, flexing the tube would probably flake some off. This would disrupt the evenous of the lubing and could throw shots. Everything in BP shooting must be consistant.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149132 - 31/12/09 03:59 AM

Just picked up a Kodiak .58 double rifle for testing. When the weather warms up a bit, I'll give it a go at the range. The owner says he returned it to Pedersoli, complaining about the crappy regulation. The gun they returned, this one I now have, supposedly regulates parallel at 50 and 100 yards using 3 drams of 2F powder and a round ball - we'll see. I usually prefer much heavier charges for hunting with a .58, and especially with this guns excessive weight of 10 1/2 pounds. 9 to 9 1/2 lbs. would have been preferred.

The first thing I did to the gun was to re-crown the muzzles. I thin pulled the nipples to see how many threads there were between the top surface and top of the flash channel to see if I could mill the nipple seats down 1/16" to get a better curl of the hammer's nose over the fence. there appears to be enough - maybe 7 threads.

The nipples that came with the gun have very long noses, which could also be trimmed a bit as they have very straight shanks which will still allow the caps to fit properly. This will also allow the hammers to curl over farther. I did note the nipple's threads aren't very snug in the breech threads, so might fore-go milling the nipple seats - we'll see.

The owner reports 3" groups at 100 yards, firing alternately, rights and lefts. That would be nice. Dang weather - too cold and windy for range shooting at 15 degrees now and supposed to drop to 2 or 3 this afternoon - (-16C).

Hope it warms up by the weekend.

Martin - have you done any more testing?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149160 - 31/12/09 02:32 PM

Hi,
Not much, but i have an advise:
Check the sear stop before shortening the nipple.
I tryed a pistol nipple and the hammer do not hit the primer, but it can be miy rifle only.
JMHO

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #149207 - 01/01/10 02:44 AM

I've already shortened them a bit and everything's OK so far, but I will pull the locks to have a look-see at the tumbler stop. Good point. I also have to remove a tich of wood that seems to be slightly binding the sear movement of the right barrel. It doesn't snap like the left lock into full bent, only 1/2 bent postion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149215 - 01/01/10 04:42 AM

I ground a bit from the tumbler stop, but was careful ot to remove too much, allowing the springs don't run too low in the lock mortice at full throw and split the stock. A 1 minute job - maybe two.
The original owner filed out the rear sight for a deep but open V sight. I replaced the rather large front bead he had with a smaller one, just for target shooting. I'll replace the larger one for hunting. Standard Marbles narrow base bead sights. A Sheard gold bead would also be a good sight for hunting.
Also, both sights are in line so perhaps this gun does regulate with 100yard and 150 yard zeros. Dang cold weather - with wind -30 today. Too cold to shoot.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149251 - 02/01/10 12:45 AM

Do you have a close picture of yuor back sight? Daryl.
Thanks
Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #149254 - 02/01/10 02:20 AM

Here's the sights Martin. The 'wings' are higher and steeper than I like but OK, for now. I think I'll browse some internet sights and see if I can find a 2 leaf (3 sights including the point blank sight) that can be dovetailed into the rear rib. The hold-down screw will have to be sunk a bit deeper, but that's not a problem unless the base is hollow, which I don't think is the case. If all else fails, there are some double sights at Trackofthewolf site that will work - standing plus one flip-up blade. Of course, they have to be filed for zero - but that's all part and parcel of sight replacement.

regardless of the weather, I'm going to try it out today. Notice the adjustable elevator has been removed from the rear sight, but the screws are installed to fill the holes. Laying the sight over, reduces the height a bit for close shots, using the screw heads to indicate the centre of the sight. This may give a good sight for point blank shooting, giving this system 2 sights on the rear flip-up sight, plus a longer range sight using the front sight. I'll test it out today - minus 25 wind chill forecast - it won't be a long day at the range, I'll wager.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149354 - 03/01/10 08:44 AM

I did some filing on the breeches - to redcue the height of the metal arond the nipple seats, which were set down fairly well, however the metal rising around the rear and outside of the nipple seats made it difficult to get a wrench on the shorted nipple flats. This is now aleviated, and re-blued with birchwood Casey's cold bluing creme. Oops, I see I didn't get the filing even on the sides - oh well. Might get around to fixing that some time.

Shot the gun yesterday on the bush trail course (7 degrees - 12 shooters turned out) - close to 100 shots total. Made many rights and lefts on the targets. I found 100gr. 2F so shoot well enough to obtain rights and lefts on the fox, paint can turkey targets ranging from 92 yards to 109yards as well as to split my playing card into 2 by holding 1" to the right of the target as it's close and the barrels are not under the sights, as they are on single guns - of course.
Although the bore on this gun is rough with reamer marks, loading was easy all day- no wiping and using a 3/8" custom made hickory rod - good grain structure. Load ended up at 100gr. 2F, a .022" ticking patch and a .562" pure lead ball. Ramin is a very, very poor second choice for ramrod material.


Here are the muzzles, re-crowned for easy, non-patch -cutting, loading. Note the rough bores due to reamer marks. I find a lot of Italian guns bored very similarly. BUT - do note, there never was any fouling buildup over the entire 90 to 100 shots fired on the course. Cleaning the gun with the bucket-flushing method, pumping water into and out of the tubes, left the 3 pound coffee can of water only slightly grey - not black, which indicates the ball/patch combination I used, although loading easily, effectively wiped the previous shot's flouling from the bore each time I loaded. The only real fouling in the bore was from the last shot fired in each tube, along with any buildup in the breeches from roughly 45 to 50 shots per tube during the day. I like this gun. Prelininary testing on the 'tie-breaker' target showed a 1" groups with both tubes alternatly, offhand at 20 yards using 3 drams of 2f GOEX. Rising to 3 2/3's drams made the bores shoot quite parallel. I like this gun - oh yeah, I said that. Too bad it isn't a .72!
Oh yeah - new nipples that need to be shortened 1/16" to the same height as the original ones so modified.


Edited by Daryl_S (03/01/10 09:00 AM)


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149363 - 03/01/10 12:19 PM

Fine rifle, it looks like it should have a very low serial (considering the back sight).

Good to see it shoots!!!!

As it is not a .72, you can use it as yuor small gam rifle. LOL

Martin

Edited by beleg2 (03/01/10 12:20 PM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #149425 - 04/01/10 07:54 AM

I think the # is 4,380K - yeah, it's low. I was told this was the second set of barrels for this gun, as the first set diverged 12" at 100 yards, and shot at 10 o'clock, 4 o'clock by another 12". The owner said he returned it to Pedersoli, who 're-regulated the barrels" - which is unlikely. If they did anything at all, they merely put on a different barrel set and returned it.

I kinda wished they'd used a smooth reamer after boring the barrels. The bores are disgustingly rough, yet don't foul, so I can put up with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149825 - 08/01/10 06:17 AM

I made some changes as you might notice. I've 4 coats of tung oil on the stock now, blued the white locks, hammers and tang and removed that awful cheek piece that resembled nothing from the past. A plain stock, without a cheek piece is period correct as-is a properly shaped cheek piece. The fit is better now, and will allow lower sights - which will come later.

Hope you like it, I do. Couple more coats and it will be done, but I have to shoot it Saturday and Sunday, so it needs to harden till then. I've set the most forward sight as the point blank sight- for out to 110yards or so, and the rear sight should be close for elevation to 150-175yards. Saturday, I'll find out if it's indeed shooting parallel as it seems to be doing now that I increased the charge to 100gr. 2F.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149831 - 08/01/10 06:47 AM

Beautiful!!!!
Im not brave enough to reshape the stock but I would probably blue the locks, really like the way it looks.
How do you blued them?
I thought they were stainless steel.

Also I want to change the sight to lower ones in the future.

Thanks
Keep posting.
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #149847 - 08/01/10 12:19 PM

Martin- I merely used Birshwood Casey's Perma Blue I think it's called and it's a very blue coloured creme. It also turns your fingers quite Robin Egg blue, so neoprene or latex gloves should be worn.

It works best fresh - ie; squeeze some bluing out of the tube onto the part to be blued, then rub it in well and set that part aside for a while to 'work' and do another. Go back to the part done, wipe it off and re-apply some more, rubbing it in well. I do this several times. The lock plates and hammers take longer to colour than something liek the butt plate, due to their material and/or finish.

Once you are satisfyed with the colour, wipe it with a clean cloth and spray with WD40, rubbing that in as well, with a cloth. That's it.

I also did a quite a lot of filing around the nipple seats, as the seats should not be cupped in metal, as-are Pedersoli's nipple seats. See the lock photo's closeups.

The hammer's neck now curls the fences almost perfectly, much better than factory at least. I filed some off the tops of the nipples, reduced the wrench flats height, and angled their shoulders outside endges to clear the hammer cup sides.

Guess I should take another closeup of a lock to show this work. Total time involved for all the work up to starting to apply the finish, probably 2 hours. It's straight forward and simple - has to be for me. Oh, I use an orbital sander, BTW as that speeds things up tremendously. I used a very aggressive, heavily toothed wood rasp that I call "JAWS", for removing the cheek piece. I have to keep the tip wrapped in duct tape for about 4 layers as it will draw blood. The points don't stop, even on caluses.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #149849 - 08/01/10 12:36 PM

Note the lack of the raised steel around the nipple seat - actually just a bit left now on the outside. It could be removed farther, but isn't necessary. Note also, the ampco nipples - threaded 1/4x28. I re-threaded the metric seats Pedersoli had so I could use easily obtained nipples.
There are only 4 thin coats of "1850 Danish Oil" finish on this gun so far. 1850 Danish Oil is a blend of a thin varnish and Tung oil. It gives a harder, more water proof finish than straight Tung oil- which is the reason I chose it. 1850 Tung Oil also gives a nice finish.

The changes I made would be very easy for Pedersoli and would have turned out a more attractive rifle, in my most humble opinion - sometimes not so humble.

Further changes may or may not happen. The gun is useable as-is, with the stock finished, of course. Different sights will happen if I can find the right express sight. I'll lower the front and rear ramps about 1/4" as well. A bit more height could be removed form the comb too, allowing a heads-up hold for the lower sights.

No flash

Flash

Angled


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (09/01/10 03:00 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150345 - 12/01/10 10:01 AM

This is what happened Saturday. Very windy. OOPs should have read 25 shots total.

Top 2 holes were with a tail wind. The 2 same elevation as the 'groups' were where I got caught by an increase in side wind. On the right side of this 10 ring hole, is another right barrel shot. I waited until the flags settled down a bit and put the left accompanying shot into the lower vertical slot which is why it has 10 shtos.

The upper large group is all right barrel, contains 9 shots & measures 7/8" on centres. The bottom elongated hole is 10 shots, and measures 1.3", not good, but not too bad. Liveable, I guess. Next time out, I'll experiment with greater powder charges to try to get the barrels uncrossed. As you can see, they are crossing 3/4" at 50 yards. As this is a muzzleloader, I could live with both of them zeroing at 100 yards, which would be a cross of only an inch or 2 so at 200yards. That would be OK for a hunting rifle. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the elevation difference, though as it's already 2" at 50 yards.

As well, I have to try paper ctg. in this gun as well. With them, I could alter loads to get the elevation the same but that would be a pain in the ass to say the least. Or - I can sight for one barrel and learn to hold for the other as it isn't too bad. 4" difference at 100 yards should only be the difference between a 100 and 125 to 130 yard zero.

The load used for this target was 82gr. of 2F GOEX, a .021" mattress ticking patch, Winshield Washer fluid and Neetsfoot oil mix for lube, about 10:1, and a .562" pure lead ball. A WW ball loads quite well with this combination as well. This is a range lube only, not for hunting due to the water content. Use straight neetsfoot oil or mink oil for hunting. Products like bore butter, which is flavoured chap-stick stuff, can build in the bore while shooting, spoiling accuracy after as few as 10 shots and are difficult to actually remove from the groove corners when cleaning.

.021" patch measurement is measured with calipers, dry, squeezing the tines together over the material with forefinger and thumb tightly. When measured with my micrometer, this material runs .018".

Note that loading is very easy. One of these days, we'll do a short video with a loading sequence to show just how easy it is.


Edited by Daryl_S (13/01/10 01:56 AM)


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150360 - 12/01/10 12:07 PM

Good shooting Daryl!!

I wait for your video.

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150497 - 13/01/10 11:40 AM

These are the patches I am currently using in most of my rifles and 20 bore smoothie. It is a bed or mattress ticking that measured .030" in the store, but after being washed and dried, mics .018" on a micrometer and .021" to .0215" with calipers, squeezing the tines together with my fingers, right over the cloth. The balls are pure lead and .562". Double thickness patch plus ball diameter adds up to about .006" larger than bore size.



This is the short video I took today during some further testing. Note that I usually choke up on the rod when loading. This helps prevent breaking the rod. Today, the 40th load in each tube, loaded as esily as the first two. At 110gr. of 2F GOEX, my barrels are shooting pretty much together on a vertical line, but still an inch to 1 1/2" apart. They are closer on that vertical line, than with 3 drams.
The Mounted Police Emergency Response Team was practising over on the pistol range so there is some background noise.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150510 - 13/01/10 02:23 PM

I can not see the video.

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150531 - 13/01/10 04:51 PM

Interesting - it's a "quick-time" video. Perhaps you'll need to download the free program??? Anyone else having trouble?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150533 - 13/01/10 05:04 PM

Works for me.

Looks like Daryl has done this muzzleloading thing a time or two before...






Cheers
Tinker


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: tinker]
      #150557 - 13/01/10 10:14 PM

Now I can see it, thanks

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150607 - 14/01/10 04:04 AM

When I veiwed it, I thought there were some things I could have done better or more clearly and it does appear as if I was in a hurry, but that is not the case. This was a slowed, methodical load. I should have ended up capping and rapping off the two fast shots.

Doing that the odd time got more than a couple guy's attention, including 2 of the ETR members. They wanted to see the big bore semiauto, normally hearing only deliberate single shots from the booming gun on the rifle range. They were surprised to see the 'antique' doing it.

At that time, there were two old, older than me, old farts on the rifle range shooting small bore cast loads, .30/30IMP and a custom 8mm Mauser shotoing go-pow loads - then they'd hear boooooom------------------------boooooom. When they heard boom-boom - they thought someone had a semi - which is legal, but rare around here in a gun that makes some noise.

When I shoot, and I've shot up to 120gr. 2F so far, I always pull both hammers to full bent to ensure the left doesn't go off with the jar of the first. So far, so good. The left, as is normal for doubles, has a harder pull than the right, with the right running just under 2 pounds, and the left, a crisp 3 pounds.

I did find that 110gr. of 2f put the balls in a vertical line, about an inch between groups at 58 yards (took the range finder with me today). My grouping wasn't as good as last Saturday for some reason, throwing more shots, although the wind wasn't as bad. Grouping wise for each barrel, the gun does like 82gr. 2F. 100gr. is still good and a bit closer together (not crossing as much) and 110gr. puts them in line, shooting together, but one still high, albeit closer.

I fired only 2 120gr. loads (getting low on powder) and at the 100 yard bank at a small white rock. The impacts were directily in line with each other, not crossing, nor diverging - but there was an elevation difference. I'd held a bit of sight for the first shot and overshot the rod by a couple inches, then aimed right at it and missed low by 2 or 3 inches. Oh well, that's why we practise - to get to know the rifle and holding as we need, to hit where we want.

There is now only one sight on the rifle as 2 will only be useful for having a longer range sight, as it should be.

More testing is needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150638 - 14/01/10 01:06 PM

Daryl,
"Some day chicken next day feather" LOL

If you can not level the barrels, you should have to check the southafrican forum.
They have a lot of Kodiaks.
They use a different charge in each barrel with success.
I think it is not a bad idea for first pair, if you miss both......just relax......LOL.

I send you an email.

Thanks for sharing.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150646 - 14/01/10 01:54 PM

Guys - this is a video of my brother loading the Virginia rifle he built - 44" bl. .50 cal. 'Rice' barrel. He's using a .495" ball and a .022" denim patch, lubricated with windshield washer fluid, the -45 stuff, mixed with a couple ounces of liquid soap. We've stopped using soap now and use a couple ounces of Neetsfoot oil in about a litre of fluid. A litre is 33.8oz. compared to the US quart of 32oz. The exact ratio is not important. The oil is just to slow the evapouration of the patch lube. For hunting, we use staright neetsfoot oil or mink oil from Track. He is using a range rod so he doesnt' have to keep taking out the rifle's rod and replacing it. We load pretty much the same with a range rod as we do with the rifle's rod.
We've been shooting BP rifles and smoothbores since 1970 for him and 1972 for me.(aside from the left handed flintlock pistol he build at age 16 - all parts hand made including drilling the barrel.

I should also note at the time he loaded this, we'd been shooting for about 2 hours, maybe 25 or more shots each - no wiping at any time. With a good thick patch and descent sized ball, the fouling present in the barrel is only from one shot, the previous one. As you load, you are wiping the last shot. If fouling is building in the grooves, something is wrong with your combination - the ball size, patch thickness, crown or maybe even the lube which is of least importance. The crown is the most important aspect of the load as it needs to be right, or it will not allow you to load a tight enough combination.



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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150677 - 14/01/10 11:19 PM

Thanks Daryl,
I just can see it after updating the program.

I like very much the way you "hit" the ball with the starter.
I put the starter on the ball and hit it with the palm.
I should try you way. I like it.

Thanks for sharing.
Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150684 - 15/01/10 02:48 AM

The starters we use have either large rounded hickory knobs, or moose antler shanks. We like the moose antler as it's heavy and hard.
Hitting the bal with the knob of the shank with 1 blow, doesn't distort the ball but merely puts it down flush with the top surface of the muzzle.

Then, smacking the knob with the shaft of the starter resting on the ball puts it down the tube the length of the starter. Taylor uses a couple lighter smacks to put the ball down into the bore, as he's a bit more particular about pinching his fingers against the muzzle. My timing for getting my fingers out of the way might be a bit better, I guess.

If you whack, whack whack with a mallet on the ball to put it flush into the muzzle it will distort the ball, flattening the top surface considerably. Doing it with one smack does not, as it merely flattens the sprue a bit.

I also have a small knob on the starter's handle which I use in some guns as this method actually makes for a more accurate shot. The small brass plunger, which has a concave cup on the end, and sticks out of the starter's knob or handle about 1/4". This puts the ball and patch down into the muzzle that 1/4" and results in no damage to the top surface at all, due to the cup. To use, put the small brass knob on top of the ball, which is sitting on the patch. Give the back of the starter a whack with your palm and into the muzzle goes the ball and patch. It's a bit slower than a single whack with the starter and that's why we use the single whack a lot- especiall in larger bores. Smaller bores are more particular, accuracy wise, and benefit from a more gentle approach. The brass protrusions I use, are usually the but end of a ctg. case with the primer removed and the bottom cupped with a drill bit.

Perhaps you noticed in the video I put the starters, big knob on the rod to push the ball down, then smacked it at the bottom. The bottom smack is to set the ball on the powder with the same pressure each time. Practise doing this will teach you to use the same pressure each time. This is very important for accuracy. You can feel with the rod when the ball comes to rest on the powder. Then, I put just alight smack on the knob to 'compress' the powder slightly, for a more even burn. Taking velocity readings with doing this and not doing this will show improvements with the method I adopted. The starter's know has a hole drilled into one side to fit over the rod so the knob can be used as I showed.


These are some of my starters showing the little stud. they are hickory, elk antler and moose antler. The leather washers protects the muzzle from the hard antler which will actually ding it when struck. I moved the big round wooden one to show the cupped stud. All of the studs are cupped to prevent damage to the ball. that wooden starter is the first I made for the 14 bore rifle - which means it's 24 years old and is a favorite. The largest Moose antler starter is becoming a favourite due to it's mass, although not much heavier than the wooden one.
The horn is a custom horn I purchased at Dixon's Gun Maker's Fair last July - also a favourite. It is very thin and holds 1 1/2 pounds of 2f - a large horn. The smallest starter is for the .32, while the second smallest is for the .40 and .45 using a 3/8" hickory shaft. The largest starters use 1/2" and 9/16" hickory shafts. It is important to have a brass collar on the end of the starter shaft to prevent splitting. In the very small calibres, a .22 hornet case, rim removed will work, whereas larger diameter cases are used for the larger shafts, of course.


Edited by Daryl_S (15/01/10 04:36 AM)


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150688 - 15/01/10 04:38 AM

Thanks Daryl for the explanation.
I will tryed it just to see.
I use an old strater (on the right) from my old underhammer:



In my sistem I put the ball the set the starter and give one wack with the palm.
This put the ball 1" into the barrel, then push it with the range rod (with muzzle protector) util it seat on the poder, the hit the ball three tiems with the rod.
It works Ok but I think your system looks better, it worth to try it.

Thanks
Martin

PS: We were posting together. LOL.
I like your wooden starter, hope you do not mind if I copy it.
how to you make the spheric hole on the stem?

BTW:
Check on general forum to see the wind we had this week.

Edited by beleg2 (15/01/10 04:45 AM)


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150700 - 15/01/10 09:04 AM

The 'stem' is a piece of .308 Winchester or maybe a .300 short mag. case glued into the wood. The hole is the primer flash hole. I chuck them up on the lathe and turn them back to the bottom of the primer cup, then cup them with a drill bit. I used to do this with files after chucking them in an electric drill, clamped in the bench vise. That was my 'lathe' for many years.

Note the longer shanks on my starters. these put the ball a good 4" to 7" down into the bore. the farther down they are, the less chance of breaking the rifle's rod when loading. I know a lot of people use muzzle protectors, but I never have, in 38 years of shooting muzzleloaders.

BTW - the wooden starter's knob, is a piece of smaller diameter base-ball bat. Come to think of it, it's probably oak, not kickory.

I also use adjustable measures when working up a load. Once I find the most accurate load for the gun, I make a brass, bone or antler measure to throw that amount. Over the years, I've made many measures and pretty much have them 5 gr. increments from about 25 to 120gr., plus my 140, 165 and 200gr, measures.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151187 - 20/01/10 03:23 AM

Always - always - always, use a long enough starter shaft that puts the ball down the bore past the front sight dovetail. If you screw up and forget to seat the ball on the powder (not good - ever), and shoot it only short started, it might not ring the barrel. I've seen that (non ringing) happen, even with thin walled smoothbores several times. If the ball is sitting under the front sight dovetail, it will ALWAYS ring.
If rung, the barrel must be cut back and re-crowned. The metal is actually stretched at that point and torn in the bottom of the 'groove' of the ring. We've sectioned several - always the same - torn steel where it stretched.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151308 - 21/01/10 07:33 AM

Well, did some more shooting yesterday yet have more to do when I get some more powder - getting low on 2F. I did try some 1F GOEX loads, to 120gr. I had resonable accuracy form each barrel, but the points of impact spread vertically by a good 3" - not good.
The 2f load of 100gr. along with a .022" patch and the small .562" ball loaded very easily, of course, but did open the groups from the previous per-barrel grouping of 82gr.(3drams)

I need to try some tighter patches and do some 3F testing. The only tests I did do with 3F wa the 3 dram load, which gas-cut the patches. This is due to the higher or faster generated pressure that 3f produces. It will take a better, "read thicker" patch to contain the added pressure.

With all other powder charges tried using 2f and 2f, the spent patches were re-usable, yet the combination of ball size and patch thickness x 2 barely makes it to the bottom of the grooves. Some compression in the bottom of the grooves is necessary with higher pressure loads - which is normal.

The offhand shots were the last 2 of the day - after firing about 40 shots per tube. I held a tich low of centre for the first shot being the higher shooting right barrel, then in the middle of the target for the left. As noted, these were shot at 56 yards according to the range finder, actually the same 56 yard range as the first target I posted as 50 yards, as the target butts were frozen into the ground and were not moveable.

The offhand target shows a slight right drift and I may have to move the sights to compensate. Both offhand shots felt 'perfectly' centred. More offhand and hunting position shooting will be needed before any sight movement is done, of course.

I guess it's useable for a deer and black bear hunting rifle.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151313 - 21/01/10 07:59 AM

Hi Daryl!

Very good shooting!
Looks like the rifle want to shot and you do your part too.
Like your shooting "little low" right and "dead on" left.

Unfortuatelly local range is open only on week end and I will be at the beach next week ends.
So I will have to wait a little more ot shot.

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151346 - 21/01/10 03:10 PM

Beach? - farthest thing from my mind right now - too much snow and ice.

Your reference to impact locations I presume was for 100 meters. I've only ever shot one moose farther away than 100 yards, and most are less than 80, so the impacts are just fine for them. Deer, I've always walked them up on trails having fresh tracks so shots are under 50 yards.

The accuracy is less than I desire, so I'll try different patch thicknesses to improve that. As well, I have to shoot some heavier loads to see what they do to the regulation. The lower the pressure, it seems, the greater the vertical spread of the impact. Canting the rifle is something else that raises or lowers bullet impacts, as well as separating or crossing of the bores. Lots of testing to do.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151386 - 22/01/10 03:07 AM

Daryl now at 12 o´clock we have 28°C and tomorow shold toch 32°C hope we can enjoy the Necochea Beach.
Next week I will visit Octavio, gran son of my good friend Saverio Bonazza. You may remember his solid charge (I post about them some time ago). I hope to do some shooting at Balcarce range.

Doubles do strange things. So, it looks like high pressure is the way to go.

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151417 - 22/01/10 10:31 AM

Higher pressure, as given by 3f over 2F, requires a tighter ball/patch combination. Since the 3f was burning the patches and 100gr. 2F as well as 120gr. 1F wasn't we can say that 82gr. of 3f developed higher pressure.

I know from chronographing other guns, that 100gr. of 2f gives higher velocity than 82gr. of 3f - in .50, .54, .58 and .69 cal rifles - yet that 82gr. of 3f produces higher pressure.

Next test will be with 110gr. and 120gr. 2f, and I might try larger ball, the .570", .575" or perhaps a heavier patch with the smaller .562" ball, juet to see the effect. I suspect the rifle's 48" twist will still shoot well with upwards of 120gr. 2F, which would make a good moose gun, as long as the barrel's impacts were close together - here's hoping.

I'd rather not use 3f due to it's rapid increase in pressure with load increases, without giving a corresponding increase in velocity.

In this 9 1/2 pound rifle, recoil is not a problem. That 9 1/2 pounds is with the 1 pound bar of lead removed formthe butt stock. The balance is still fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151422 - 22/01/10 11:22 AM

"That 9 1/2 pounds is with the 1 pound bar of lead removed formthe butt stock."
All rifles have this lead ball?

I have no problem choosing 3F or 2F as I can only get local 3F powder.

Thanks
Martin

PS: Have you saw my question on bore forum?

Edited by beleg2 (22/01/10 11:23 AM)


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151450 - 22/01/10 05:06 PM

9 1/2 pounds with the bar removed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151470 - 22/01/10 08:46 PM

All rifles have this lead bar?
Is it under the butt plate?
Thanks

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151511 - 23/01/10 03:31 AM

yes- It is undersized to the hole, but has had a rod pounded onto it, slugging up the front end and the rear end. if you drill a hold into the end you can see, then screw in a long shanked wood screw that you can get a hold of with long nosed locking plyers, then tap to plyers to 'pull' the plug out. Don't use too bit a screw as that will 'obturate' (expand) the lead to a tighter fit inside the hole. If the lead is too tight to pull out, try thumping the stock on the sides, top and bottom with a well-padded hammer handle so you don't mark the stock's surface. The thumping will compress the lead where it contacts the sides of the hole, making it easier to remove. Mine loosened up just with the work I did re-finishing the stock, filing, and using an orbital sander (much vibration). The vibrations of the sander did what thumping the stock will also do.

My rifle weighed 10 1/2 pounds as obtained, 9 1/2 pounds now with the lead removed. Offhand, it holds a bit better now due to the lighter butt, heavier barrels. It still mounts well and the lead was not needed, indeed, made the rifle a bit ungainly due to excessive weight for the calibre. I've been told that all Kodiaks have it. Whether yours does or not, one merely has to unscrew the butt plate & have a look-see.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #152895 - 05/02/10 08:44 AM

Daryl,
My rifle hace it too!!!!
It is incredible such a piece of lead.
The rifle now (without the chunk of lead) feels funy but much lighter.

Thanks
Martin


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153406 - 12/02/10 06:20 AM

Hi Daryl,
I have decide to blue the lock plates and hammers but could not get the hammers out.
How do you take them out?
Do you blued together?
Thanks
Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #153427 - 12/02/10 11:21 AM

Remove the screw that holds the hammers on the tumbler.
Remove all the lock's innards- but FIRST - you should have a mainspring vice to do this, but vice grips can be used, if done carefully. Also, an 1/8" to 3/16" thick piece of steel with a 1/4" slot in it will also work as a mainspring vise.

Slide the 'tool' I described up the mainspring with the locks at full cock - or lightly grip the main spring with the vice grips - lock ar full cock position. Now, gently trip the sear and move the hammer forward to make the spring's engagement on the tumbler swivel loose. Remove the mainspring and set down without tripping the vice-grips.

Loosen the sear spring until you can release it from it's 'catch' in the lock plate, releaving it's pressure against the sear. Now, remove the sear and scew spring. Remove the screws holding the tumbler plate on, then remove the plate.

You should not have a hammer attached to the tumbler through the lock plate. Hold the lock plate in your palm, tumbler down, hammer facing up. Put a brass drift down into the screw hold of the hammer. It should be brass and just clear the threads but go to the bottom of the hole. Tap the drift with a small hammer and the tumbler should drop off the hammer into your hand, which also loosens the plate. You can now blue the hammer and plate.

NOTE - if you try to pry the hammer off the tumbler, you may break the tumbler projection. Then, the lock will need a new tumbler - don't do this. You need to tap it off as indicated, unless it is loose. These are not high grade guns and it is possible the square hole in the hammer is oversize. If the hammer isn't loose, you must do as I wrote.

Hope this helps. The more times you assemble and remove the lock parts, the easier a job it becomes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153772 - 15/02/10 10:57 AM

Hi,
I just finished lock plate blueing.


Looks much more traditional.
I have to change the sights too, they works fine but look out of place in this rifle.

Martin


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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #153840 - 16/02/10 02:30 AM

Looking better already. Bit different lineage than mine, judging by the checkering.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153856 - 16/02/10 05:49 AM

Daryl,
My rifle is younger than yours,
It was sent to Argentina about 1996 (5187K) but I bought it almost unused 2 years ago.

You can send an email to: gloria@davidepedersoli.com
With your serial, she can tell you when they made it.

The also provide some info about the story of these rifles for an article I was writing:

"There is always a sinergy and cooperation between the Davide Pedersoli Company and our main Distributors.
We may be the first receiving inquiries of new products from the final customers, or it can be the distributor who already made the market research and have some figures for us to work on. If we decide to enter a new project, there is the historical research, the search for an original to study, often we succeed buying the original gun, then there is the evaluation about the difficulty to produce it and the tooling costs.
For our Kodiak double express the solicitation was made to us from Trails Guns Armoury, an American company which lasted since some years ago, until the owner passed away.
The original double express rifles date back to 1850 about. We do not have one original, but the American customer provided us with detailed documentation.
The Kodiak name was also chosen by the him, following an adventure/hunting book he read."


BTW: I preffer the checkering on your rifle to mine.
Very intersting.
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (16/02/10 05:55 AM)


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