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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Zihn/Rigby rifle
      #111072 - 05/08/08 12:16 AM

Hello Folks,

After pondering the relative effectiveness of the Rigby-style muzzleloading rifle Steve Zihn built for me, I decided to compare the
Taylor Knock Out index (TKO) to some cartridge guns. To give some idea of the magnitude involved, here is a photo of the ball next
to a round of 454 Casull ammunition. The ball is perched atop a 45 Colt case.



TKO was proposed by John “Pondoro” Taylor as an index of killing power on large, dangerous game. It is calculated as the product of
projectile mass (in lbs), speed (fps), and diameter (inches).

TKO = (grains * muzzle velocity * diameter) / 7000
TKO muzzleloader = (430 * 1800 * 0.665) /7000 = 73.5
TKO 458 magnum = (500 * 2250 * 0.458) / 7000 = 73.6

Recoil is comparable too. It looks like the gun is up to any job I put it to.

Take care, Tom


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #111075 - 05/08/08 12:43 AM

Tom:
I like using Taylor's 'Knock-Out' value too, as it favours the large-bore modest-velocity chamberings we love so much.

However... we shouldn't forget that it was based solely on shooting a steel-jacketed solid into the head of an elephant. To extend it to lead bullets, especially spherical ball, is a stretch.

Fun though, hey!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #111088 - 05/08/08 02:44 AM



Marrakia is correct, in that we have to compare "apples to apples"If we take the "TKO" of a 30-06 with a 168 grain bullet it comes out to 19.58
BUT if you had a US HI 1945 black tip armor piercing round and a good soft point of the same weight, the formula doesn't work, because although the energy of the 2 bullets is the same, the soft point dumps it's energy in a shorter and wider wound in an animal, and therefore kills and disables far better then the AP round.

We need to compare bullet type to bullet type and bullet placement to bullet placement to have a true scale to evaluate. A 7X57 with a FMJ through an elephants brain is much faster to kill then a 700 Nitro through it’s lungs. But that proves nothing

However, the other side of the coin is this;
In the case of both the 16 bore muzzleloader and the 458 Winchester, it must be remembered that the 45 cal bullet will expand to about the same size as the 66 cal ball, and the wounds are going to be about the same. It's the WOUND that kills and disables, not the gun, not the shell and not the bullet. The bullet only makes the wound, but the wound is what results in death or incapacitation.

Don't sell these old fashioned front stuffers short. until you have hunting with them, you would not think they would work as well as they do. Believe me, they kill WAY better then the Paper energy" would have you believe, just because they make very big and deep holes in things. Elephant is the one animal that they have had some trouble with historically, but they still did a grand job for years. On anything smaller then elephant, they do as well and many times better than most modern cartridges. Only the very largest modern shells do as well as a good 8 bore, and I doubt there are any that do better then a 4 bore.

The 2 bore is somewhat of an oddity in that to get it’s velocity up to where it penetrates well on elephant, it was known to break bone with it’s recoil. But if a man could carry one and stand the recoil there were truly awesome. Even with only 24-30 inches of penetration on elephants, it was something of a “cannon” just because of the terrible trauma it causes to what ever it hits.

I am learning about the 2 bores right now. I have gone over and over all I can find about the old ones and I was surprised to learn most were not too much heavier then the 4 bores. Now that I am making one, I see why
To get the weight up to 30 pounds you have to make the barrel so large on it’s outside dimensions that you can’t make a stock and grip small enough to get a n average man’s hand around. I am adding weight everywhere I can to get the one I am making now up in weight, but I am still coming up short of my targeted weight.

I also find that the powder charges listed in the old books and writings were about the same as the 4 bore charges. Again, I know why now. If you were to double the powder charge over a 4 bore as you double the ball weight, I think the recoil would do Permanente damage to the shooter in a 22-25 pound gun, and as I said, to make the gun at 30+ pounds, you can’t hold on to it because you can’t close your hand around it, so it would jump out of your grip if they were that big.

In these big rifles the recoil is something different then even a 505 Gibbs When I shot the Gibbs the recoil was heavy, but not horrible. The 4 bore was W AY more, but when I had the 17.5 pound rifle moving, I could not seem to stop it. It’s like the kick was hard, sharp and LASTING. unlike a 505, the recoil didn’t seem to stop with the noise. It’s like it keeps on coming for a time after the shot’s fired and the smoke is clearing.
I can’t even imagine how the recoil would be to have that kind of velocity with a 2 bore. (1650 - 1800 FPS)

Even 300 grains of powder with a 2 bore is frightening to me.


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #111090 - 05/08/08 03:04 AM

In comparing the 66 cal ML with a hard ball cast of wheelweights to a 458 solid (as Taylor would have), the primary differnces will be frontal area, velocity, and sectional density. The higher sectional density of the 458 bullet would tend to penetrate deeper, the greater frontal area of the ball would make a larger wound channel, and velocity could go either way. Higher velocity often causes less penetration, but not always.

Anyway, the comparison was made in fun.

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #111095 - 05/08/08 04:51 AM


Agreed.


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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #111098 - 05/08/08 05:37 AM

Quote:

Hello Folks,

After pondering the relative effectiveness of the Rigby-style muzzleloading rifle Steve Zihn built for me.....Take care, Tom




If you are going to "brag" about your "Zihn/Rigby rifle", the least you could do is share some pictures with us

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: AzGuy]
      #111101 - 05/08/08 06:08 AM

Hi Guy,

See the thread "another one done" initiated by Steve Zihn (szihn).

Take care, Tom


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #111118 - 05/08/08 11:08 AM

Here it is.





Edited by szihn (07/09/08 02:27 AM)


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #111239 - 07/08/08 01:53 AM

There is another fun formula on the Beartooth Bullets site.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm
Called "Thornily Relative Stopping Power" .
It places the 16 bore at about the 375 H&H level at 1600 fps MV, 1400 striking velocity.
This agrees with Forsythe stating the the 16 bore is about as small as anyone would use on dangerous game.
My flintlock 16 makes 1600 with 140 gr (just over 5 drams) of FFG Swiss and it really is a power house.
But I think hardened lead balls would be needed to produce best results on game larger than deer or elk. The 458 is actually in the realm of the 10-8-4 bore in actual use.

Dan


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Dphariss]
      #111241 - 07/08/08 02:06 AM

You are correct Dan. Harder balls make these guns work extremely well on elk and moose. On deer it doesn't seem to make much difference. Ordinary wheel weights work fine for elk, and if you want ever better penetration, (for moose or any game over 1000 pounds) just water drop them and roll them on files to texture the surface. The texture keeps them from slipping in the patch, and they shoot just as well as soft lead.

I shot through both shoulders of a moose a few years ago with a hard .62 cal ball. It was the only moose I have ever shot that dropped at the shot. I have killed 2 with a 375H&H and one with a 348 Winchester, and all died within a minute or less, but none dropped at the shot. My flintlock dropped the moose. A 66 would be better still.

I am going to start a 12 bore in the not-to-distant future. I bet it's REALLY going to be a meat maker.


Edited by szihn (07/09/08 02:31 AM)


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #113774 - 06/09/08 10:18 PM

Hello Folks,

My work schedule has changed and I’m not able to go to the range much now. Yesterday I found time to shoot one three-shot group at 100 yards. Using a six o-clock hold, this 2-1/4 inch group is centered right on top of the front sight, exactly where I want it. My load is 150 gr (by volume) of Hodgden 2F Triple Seven, 435 gr roundballs cast of wheelweights, pillow-ticking patches and felt wads pre-lubed with T/C Bore Butter. This combination has worked well in other guns for many years, and makes it “falling off a log” easy to keep a gun free of rust and corrosion.



I’m always open to suggestions for improvement, and I’ve heard good things about Hoppes #9 Plus. Among those of you who use this product, have you left a loaded gun for any length of time? I’m wondering if it will migrate to the powder, or dry out?

Take care, Tom


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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #113790 - 07/09/08 02:12 AM

I, for one, can't even guess Tom. Up until I made your rifle, I had never even opened a can of Triple 7.
But, with Black, trying 2, 3 or even 4 wads can sometime make a difference. Now 2.25" at 100 yds with a muzzleloader is VERY god, but you are correct in assuming it can get better. I would have to put the practical limit at about half that, because I have never heard of anyone that could do much betted than 1 1/4 with any iron sighted muzzleloader on demend. Sure, you get one now and then that will go less. I once shot four 54 caliber round balls into a group of .825" center to center with a FLINTLOCK --------- but note how i remember it. I have never done it again.

I can get 2" with most of the rifles I make, but under that is getting to be harder and rarer for me. I think my rifles may do better, but I can't do much better now. I am not young anymore, and my eyes are starting to give me a bit of blur now.
But, if you want to play with things, the first thing I would try is a thicker and softer lubed wad. The felt I sent with the gun was as thick as I could find around here at the time, but I do find it now and then up to 1/2" thick. I am sure the Eastern Seaboard has more places to get things like that then Wyoming does.

Let us know how you do.
happy hunting
Steve

Edited by szihn (07/09/08 02:29 AM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #113795 - 07/09/08 02:49 AM

Steve-

For wool felt stock in thickness up to 1.0" go to McMaster-Carr

Use the search feature on the left side of the screen, type 'Felt' and let it rip.
From there go to 'sheet and strips' from the big part of the screen, and from there go to plain backed, you'll have more choices and will be able to choose the quality and quantity.

The price is about as good as I've seen, and there is a great selection. Some grades of wool felt are more expensive than others, so shop around in the menus there. I tend to go for pure, relatively cheap firm gray wool.
It's been a while since I've ordered, so browse away and see if the prices compare to what you're used to.
I like to buy it in this way, as a pad of felt packs easily with the rifle and is a versatile piece of material for all sorts of things in the field.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: tinker]
      #113801 - 07/09/08 03:51 AM

Good tip.
Thanks Tinker.


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richla
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Reged: 18/05/07
Posts: 17
Loc: ma
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #117663 - 26/10/08 03:13 AM

Steve, I am not trying to go off topic here (mods, please delete if needed), but do you have a website?
I enjoy your posts, and find them very informative, and your work is amazing.
Best wishes,
Rich
(by the way, this site is incredibly informative)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: richla]
      #117666 - 26/10/08 04:46 AM

Rich-

I don't have an answer for you on the website question, but I'd like to take this space to welcome you to the site if that hasn't already been done.

Welcome!

Next, I've seen (don't have an URL for you at this moment) Steve's photo archives offsite in the past.
There's a lot of great looking work there, and I'm sure Steve will send you a link if you ask.

Do you hunt with a muzzle loading rifle or with Black Powder?




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #117670 - 26/10/08 06:04 AM

Quote:

I’m always open to suggestions for improvement, and I’ve heard good things about Hoppes #9 Plus. Among those of you who use this product, have you left a loaded gun for any length of time? I’m wondering if it will migrate to the powder, or dry out?




Quote:

Now 2.25" at 100 yds with a muzzleloader is VERY good, but you are correct in assuming it can get better.




Today I prepped this rifle for the upcoming ML deer season, and having been bothered about this exchange I was surprised to see it resurface at this time. Steve, I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm very pleased with the way the rifle shoots, and was not complaining about 2+ inch groups. In fact, the gun has shot as many groups under two inches as over.

Instead, I was asking about any words of wisdom in general, and about Hoppes #9 Plus in particular.

The average 100-yard accuracy this gun has produced is about two inches. You built it for me as a hunting gun, and it is the most accurate round-ball gun I've ever owned. If things work out, I have perfect confidence it will put venison in my freezer. Thank you.

Take care, Tom


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2100
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #117677 - 26/10/08 07:07 AM

Oh I understood Tom. No offence was taken at all. I was just "filling in some gaps" for the readership.
Happy hunting. Hope you get a few big ones.

And Richla, .....no, I don't have a web site. I would not really know what to do with one. I am not at all computer savvy, and my old computer is EXTREMELY slow. I need to spend as much time as I can in the shop and not behind this stupid desk.
Besides,,,,,,,,my computer hates me.
But it's ok, because I hate it back.
But I think you for your kind words Rich.


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: szihn]
      #117690 - 26/10/08 11:55 AM

Steve,

I know that websites can be a pain to maintain, but if you type in "Build Your Own Website" into Google, you would get hundreds of free resources on how to build websites. The ones that are supported by PC Magazine, CNET etc are the best ones to use.

Again, I know that this is a bit of a pain, but masterpieces need to be on the web for people to drool over.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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richla
.224 member


Reged: 18/05/07
Posts: 17
Loc: ma
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #117691 - 26/10/08 12:07 PM

Hi Tinker. Thanks for the kind words. I did indeed come across Steve's photobucket. Just AMAZING
work!

I got into blackpowder last year, to extend my hunting season. It's funny that I have been around blackpowder all my life, but never really had the desire to get into it.

Now that I have started, I am quickly making up for lost time!

Steve, nice to speak with you, what a talent you have. Now, get back in the shop!!

Have a good night, Gents,
Rich


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DarylSModerator
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Zihn/Rigby rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #118885 - 15/11/08 06:58 AM

Tatume- I've used beesweax/vaseline mix, heavier on the vaseline, lighter on the beeswax for patch lube with reasonably good results, and 60/40 mix for bullets for black powder, beeswax to vaseline this time. I've wanted to try using olive oil instead of vaseline but haven't mixed any up as of yet. Even though vaseline is a petrolium product and shouldn/t work with black powder, it works when combined with beeswax for some odd reason. Great BP bullet lube for BP CTG guns = 60:40 BW/Vas.

As to Hoppe's #9 Plus, it's a great patch lube for hunting, as is mink oil. In my .69, mink oil shoots as well as spit patch - 5 shtos routinely into 1 1/2" or less at 100 meters - off bags, of course. Any lube used, needs a barrier between the powder and the lubed patch, to keep from spoiling the charge. So loaded, my .69 has hit centre after being loaded for 3 months - mink oil patch. This was before I discovered Hoppe's. I prefer the mink oil as it doesn't 'dry'. Hoppe's and LehighValleyLube will dry on the patch. They'll still lubricate THAT shot, but won't soften the fouling left in the bore for an easy second loading. This is where the greases work better as in Mink Oil- really a grease until you tough it with your finger. Great stuff for hunting.

I had to keep my charges low when using WW balls. Harder than WW isn't necessary for anything State-side and I doubt for anything in Africa either. WW works very well in paper ctgs. for the large bores for a fast second shot - especially in freezing weather. 8 seconds to load, aim and fire the .69 rifle. It's English Styling makes this possible - short 30" barrel is fast loading. Paper ctgs. that lightly engrave the lands - rip of the base and stick the opened ctg. into the muzzle. By the time you get the rod out, the powder's drained into the breech. Shove the paper ctg. down onto the powder and the paper wads against the powder and prevents gas blow-by- spins the ball and accuracy in my rifle was on -par with the patched pure lead balls - 1 1/2" or better - same group. I used 165gr.2F GOEX and .022" denim patches on the pure lead balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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