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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
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.40 caliber dilemma ?
      #94381 - 16/01/08 11:13 AM

I wish to purchase a rifle in one of the .40 calibers built on a standard length Mauser action. I do not want to reload ammo but wish to be able to purchase ammo from gun dealers or stores. Which caliber could be built on a standard length Mauser. .404 Jeffery, .416 Remington Mag., or are there other choices? I have ruled out the .425 Express as commercial ammo in not available. I have also more or less ruled out the .416 Taylor as ammo for this caliber is not readly available. Also I have a chance to buy a 10.75x68mm Mauser with a .425 bore. Could this rifle be converted to a .404 Jeffery? I believe the bore on the Jeffery is .424 while the bore on the 10.75x68 is .425, how much would the .001 difference in bore make? I also have the opportunity to buy a .425 express but do not know what the bore is for this caliber. Does someone know what the bore is on a .425 Express and if it can be converted to a .404?

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bpesteve
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94436 - 17/01/08 01:57 AM

If we are talking unaltered typical '98 Mauser actions, I don't know of any non-wildcat .40-.43 caliber cartridges that will fit in a standard length Mauser action for which you can get commercial ammo. The .404 and .416 Rem are too long and ammo isn't easily available for the others that might work like the 10,75x68 or .425 Westley Richards.

The .404 and 10,75 nominally take the same .424" diameter bullets. With older rifles what the actual barrel dimensions might be of either is open to chance.

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88MauSporter
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: bpesteve]
      #94456 - 17/01/08 06:40 AM

I have read that Rigby made .416 Rigby standard lenght Mausers. I read that one of the more famous East African PH's of the '40s -'50s used one for many years. I have an FN Standard commercial Mauser action in .375 H&H that feeds and handles that cartridge with great ease.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Rolf
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94465 - 17/01/08 07:21 AM

Hello,

I think that you will have to take one bite in a sour apple:

Factory ammunition available:
416 Remington: high pressure
416 Rigby: magnum length action

404 Jeffery: magnum length action recommended, but pressure is low

I would recommend reloading the 10,75x68:
Fits a 98 standard system, holds 4 cartridges, shoots good bullets from Woodleigh (347grs at 680 m/s) and has not much recoil. Forget Taylors remarks, Harald Wolf had good results upto and including Australian buffaloe with GOOD bullets!
Only drawbacks are cases and prices for reloading tools, but if you want a standard length action, try this one!

Rolf

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xausa
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94471 - 17/01/08 08:06 AM

.425 Westley Richards uses a .435" diameter bullet, according to Cartridges of the World. It has a case length of 2.64" and an over all length of 3.30", which makes it longer than the 8X57, but shorter than the .30-'06. A good fit for a standard 98 Mauser.

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: xausa]
      #94478 - 17/01/08 10:01 AM

To Everyone who has replyed to this post.

First I would like to thank everyone for the information so far and as everyone to accept my appology for not replying sooner. Just as I hit the enter button to post my problem, my computer crashed. I did not even know if the posting was made or not. I am having to borrow a computer and will have limited access for a day or two until I can beg, borrow, or steal one as I hate to buy another one since the one that crashed is only 30 days old, been in the shop 29 of those days. And yes I am I happy camper....LOL

At any rate please bear with me and I will answer all as I can. My porblem is that I want to use a standard length action for this rifle and do not want to reload. I wish to purchase factory ammo. I have been told that the .404 Jeffery can be built on a standard length action without any problems????? I have also been told that the .416 rem. Mag. can be built on a standard length Mauser action although I find this hard to believe.

I am looking at an old Mauser in caliber 10.75x68 with a frosted barrel and a bore dia. of .425. This would be ideal if it could be converted to .404 Jeffery and the frosted barrel which is .001 larger would not hamper performance??

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #94479 - 17/01/08 10:09 AM

88MauSporter,

I have read and heard the same thing about Rigby's being built on standard length Mausers. If a .416 Rigby can be built and function safely on a standard length Mauser than I am wondering why a .404 Jeffery could not alos be built on a standard Mauser? I have also heard of .375's being built on pre-64 Winchester actions, but I believe that the pre-64 win. action is a little longer than a standard length Mauser action????

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: xausa]
      #94481 - 17/01/08 10:16 AM

xausa,

I have considered the .425 W.R. also, but I have heard that there are all kinds of feeding problems with this cartridge because of the rim. Also, I imagine that finding factory loaded ammo would be quite difficult?

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Rolf]
      #94514 - 17/01/08 05:52 PM

Rolf,

I have considered the 10.75x68 and in fact am looking at just such a rifle. The reason I am looking at this caliber seriously is because a .404 Jeffery is a metric 10.75x73 and I figured the 10.75x68 could be very easly converted to a .404 Jeffery. It is very easy to convert a 9.3x57 to a 9.3x62 and thus it should not be to difficult for the above .404 Jeffery conversion. For me reloading is out of the question as I have not reloaded for years and do not wish to start again.

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Mauser Rifle

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mickey
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94529 - 17/01/08 07:49 PM

Jim

I forgot to tell you last night that I have a 404 on a non magnum Mauser action. Built by Jeffery's. The front is not undercut for the cartridge but it works like a champ.

It is being restocked now but will post pics. when I get it back.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94533 - 17/01/08 08:42 PM

.400 Tembo - I posted on your other thread

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: mickey]
      #94536 - 17/01/08 08:48 PM

Mickey,

Thanks for the information. I will be looking forward to the pictures. I have other thoughts about this also, but I will wait for the right timing....

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #94539 - 17/01/08 08:52 PM

JabaliHunter,

Thank you for that information, but I am looking for a caliber that ammo is factory loaded. I do not believe I would have an easy time finding .400 Tembo

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Mauser Rifle

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Bramble
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94566 - 18/01/08 03:31 AM

I have a standard action stripped on the desk in front of me. As it stands it is approx .060 short in the action well. However IMHO the removal of that .060 would not make any significant impact on the strength of the action. But looking at it I would if I were building one, I would want to take a little more to ensure reliability of cartridge pick up.
I believe that there were many .404's done on standard actions, but it is not recommended practice today. This may be that there was little reloading done when they were built and more caution is applied today, as the opening up must to some extent, however small that be, weaken the action.

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mickey
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Bramble]
      #94571 - 18/01/08 05:24 AM

There is a fellow in Pasco Washington that used to lengthen actions by cutting and re welding. He also made some square bridge actions by fitting and welding the 'square on to the action.

He was a very good welder and you could not find his welds or where he added the extra metal.

I believe he has quit the gun business as it was only a hobby.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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zaitsev
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: mickey]
      #94572 - 18/01/08 06:10 AM

The .404 is able to fit in a standrad Mauser, but you need a longer magazine and it will need a bit of work and cash at the gunsmiths side.

If i were to build a .404 i would use a 602 action and just barrel it .If it wasnt that i bought a good .M98 .404 yesteryear that was already converted and it was built by a good smith that had security in mind when he built it .

--------------------
The world hasnt got enough big Bores ,and people who uses them

(mr rigby at AR)

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Bramble]
      #94588 - 18/01/08 08:39 AM

Bramble,

I agree with you concerning taking metal out of the action that it has to have some kind of impact on the strength. But I also believe like you that the amount taken out to build a .404 Jeffery would not be of signifance to make the action unsafe. Like you stated, this has been done for decades by gunsmith's. I do believe that the work needs to be done by someone who knows what he is doing or you could end up with an unsafe action.

Since I only will use factory loads and the .404 Jeffery is such an old caliber I do not believe that ammo manufactures will ever load this cartridge to hot. I imagine it will be treated the same as the 7x57, but these are only myu opinions.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: mickey]
      #94590 - 18/01/08 08:48 AM

Mickey,

I appreciate that information. I have a question though? If he lengthens the action the bolt would also have to be lengtheded, correct? If this is true I might as well use a magnum length action from a rifle I already have or buy one of the commercial calibers built on a magnum action. This is what I am trying to stay away form. Since I use a 7x57 and 9.3x62 for all my hunting and they have a standard length action, I want a .40 bore with the same length action or a standard length action so the bolt through will be the same on all the rifles I use for hunting.

I will call you about this though, but I am thinking that I might just find one sitting around somewhere. Seems as if someone told me they forgot about having a .404 Jeffery in the shop the other day!!! I will rack my brain to see if I can remember who???

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: zaitsev]
      #94591 - 18/01/08 08:56 AM

zaitsev,

The Brno 602 action is the way to go, I agree 100%. But I wish to keep the bolt throw the same on all my rifles and the only other calibers I use are 7x57 and 9.3x62. Thus as you stated, I will have to find one made up by a compentent gunsmith or find one to build a .404 Jeffery.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94592 - 18/01/08 09:01 AM

zaitsev,

I just purchased a Oberndorf Mauser Type B in caliber 10.75x68. How difficult would it be to convert this over to a .404 Jeffery since the metric size for a Jeffery is 10.75x63?

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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Ripp
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94641 - 19/01/08 02:40 AM

Quote:

To Everyone who has replyed to this post.


At any rate please bear with me and I will answer all as I can. My porblem is that I want to use a standard length action for this rifle and do not want to reload. I wish to purchase factory ammo. I have been told that the .404 Jeffery can be built on a standard length action without any problems????? I have also been told that the .416 rem. Mag. can be built on a standard length Mauser action although I find this hard to believe.





The 416 Rem is was based off of the 8mm Remington had introduced previously

thx
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Ripp]
      #94673 - 19/01/08 10:13 AM

Ripp,

If I understand you correctly, then the 8mm Remington is built on a standrd lenth Remington action. I was under the impression the a longer action was used for the 8mm Remington Mag., .416 Remington and 375 H&H cartridges.

Since I am not a gunsmith and have not reloaded for 20 or more years I am not an expert on this type of information, thus I ask everyone here who are knowledgeable.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94837 - 21/01/08 09:08 AM

To Everyone,
Ripp, zaitsev, mickey, Bramble, JabaliHunter, xausa, Rolf 88MauSporter, bpesteve

From everything that the members have told me and all that I have learned, I am in total agreement with you. The .404 Jeffery is the way to go for me in the big bore department. I am confident tht it will handle any animal alive, factory ammo is available, maybe not everywhere, but is none the less available and being a low pressue cartridge the recoil will be less than the other offerings in caliber .416 or larger.

I certainly wish to thank you and all the other members for all the information and imput on this topic as everyone has been very helpful. There is no doub't that everyone's imput has helped me to settle on the .404 Jeffery.

With the problem of caliber settled one would think this issue would be closed. Unfortunately it is not as other doors have opened as to which rifle to modify or use as a basis for building a .404 Jeffery on have opened. Due to my physical build including face, all my rifles are pre-war Mausers. These rifles have far more drop in the stock, which I need to be able to get my face down far enough on the stock to see the iron sites, and are of slimer stock design which I also prefer. One of the things that I have learned through this topic discussion is that the pre-64 Winchester has a longer action than a standard Mauser length action. In fact what I have learned is tht all pre-64 actions are actually the same length with the bolt stop governing how far back the bolt will travel to allow for longer cartridges. Thus less metel needs to be taken out of the pre-64 action than a standard length Mauser action. Here in lies the problem. Should I sell all my Mausers and purchase pre-64 Winchesters or keep the Mausers and build with them. I want all my rifles to be the same and if possible have the same length of bolt through. I only hunt with 3 calibers ( presently the 7x57, 9.3x62 and now the .404 Jeffery ). Which way do the members here think would be the best route to go???

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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Bramble
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94858 - 21/01/08 12:09 PM

Well,that is quite a question.

If you are going to scope them then you really IMHO need to change the standard Mauser safety. I think that the high mounted scopes although thy look the business historicaly are aqwuard to shoot with (for me anyway) So you will not end up with true Mausers, rather a custom rifle based on a Mauser action. If the actions and stocks of the pre-war (which one ?) that you have are pristine, then you are into a simple rebarrel and some limited action work for the 9.62 and the 404 and if you duplicate the barrel profile, but a bit larger diamiter for the 404 then you can proberbly get away with opening the barrel channel.
If they are a bit rough and are going to need re-stocking, blueing flatting, buffing etc then you are going to get into big bucks pretty quickly.
I am no winchester expert but I don't believe (please somebody correct me if I am wrong) that they were ever built in 9.3 or 404. 7 x 57 I don't know but I don't recall that either. So again you are into custom rifles.
Given the price of pre 64 Winchesters then I think that selling your mausers may not raise enough to buy the same number of pre 64's.
The Mausers when modified will have the same bolt throw, because neither the ejector box or the reciever locking lugs will move. If the action of the Winchester is adjusted by moving the bolt stop then the will all have different bolt throws it would seem unless all are altered to be the same as the 404 with some wasted length for the smaller calibers.

The bottom line would be what do you want to spend?

At the London auction that I attended with Pieter and Rigby Mauser in December, you could have bought Cogswell 404 Mausers in neeed of a re-blue and a refinish of the stock for around $3000.00, even allowing for paying somebody like me buying one for you and the paperwork to ship, you are going to get an origional for around $ 4000.00. I would bet that you will spend a lot more getting one built and it is still a shooter that will not apprciate a lot, whilst one of these would proberbly hold its value in real terms.

I don't know if that helps or makes it worse.

Regards

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Bramble]
      #94884 - 21/01/08 05:30 PM

Bramble,

Well I will try this again. I typed out a long reply to answer your reply, and it would not load as it kept telling me this was an invalid form????????

This reply will be shorter as maybe I was too windy?

The rifles I hunt with are a Oberndorf Mauser Type B in caliber 7x57 which was made before WW II. The 9.3x62 is a pre WW II Mauser with 1/2 Oct and 1/2 round barrel, engraved and has all the bels and whistles.

I also have a J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Shul Germany caliber 9x57 in mint condition, 1/2 Oct & 1/2 round barrel with all the bells and whistles.

I also have a 10.75x68 Oberndorf Type B Mauser. This is the rifle that I am considering converting into a .404 Jeffery. Even if I have to replace the barrel, and barrels are not that expensive, I am hoping it will not take much work on the action to convert it to a .404 Jeffery.

If I trade and sell all my Mauser's and purchase Winchester's it will only be because it will make a difference in safety. The Winchester being more safe because less metel will be taken out of the action than on a Mauser. In all honesty I much prefer the Mauser Rifles. My biggest concern is how safe the rifle will be after it is converted to .404 Jeffery.

I have considered just waiting and purchassing a .404 like you stated, but I think it would be faster, easier and cheaper to convert the 10.75x678. Again my concern is safety.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #94893 - 22/01/08 12:47 AM

RWS used to load 10.75x68 but I don't know if they still do. I'm told that those loads exceeded the performance of the .404 too...

The problem with losing your replies might be due to using the quick reply and not reply button for posting your message. In any case you should be able to retrieve your message by pressing the back button on the browser and the copy and paste the text into a new post using the reply button. Hope that helps

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Bramble
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #94923 - 22/01/08 09:03 AM

Nobody can advise you how to deal with an issue that could concern safety, one can only speak for ones self.

I personaly would do such a conversion and shoot it myself without reservation if:
The action on examination was sound and tight.

If I wanted to be especially sure, I would have reciever hardness checked and the action magnafluxed or x-rayed.

Many .404's were built on standard length actions.

If one considers the likley point of failure, then with a modern moly barrel it is most unlikly to fail due to hoop stress unless in an overload/obstruction scenario.
So we are concerned with bolt/action lug sheer. A .416 Taylor working on the figures I have of Max allowable pressure equates to 56692lbs lbs thrust. The .404 equates to 49044lbs.
One can conclude from this that in the vital area likley to fail a 416 Taylor which will fit the standard length imposes a stress of 15% higher than the .404. If we need to remove by my measurments .060" of material to accomadate the .404, that is less than 15% of the material in that area and furthermore due to the angle of the feed ramp it is in fact much less.

All of the above is however, at the end of the day, for your interest only and is not me attempting to convince you one way or another, just giving you my best read on the situation.

Regards

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95020 - 23/01/08 02:57 PM

Sorry for the late reply, but I lost another computer, 3 in less than one week....

JabaliHunter,

I appreciate your information. From what I have read about the 10.75x68 wat that it was a very good cartridge but the bullets of the time were not very well constructed and lacked proper pentration. According to Cartridges of The World, they were still listed in RWS catalog, but I do not know this for sure.

Thank You for the information about replies. Yes I did use the quick reply. I will not make that mistake again. I thought maybe it was due to the computer going out or getting ready to crash.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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MauserRifle
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Re: .40 caliber dilemma ? [Re: Bramble]
      #95021 - 23/01/08 03:21 PM

Bramble,

You are correct that no one can advise you on dealing with safety, but I value Your opinion and the opinions of others on this forum. I also appreciate everyone's imput.

From all the information I have received from you and everyone else it seems that it is safe to build a .404 Jeffery on a standard length Mauser action. This appeals to me as I prefer Mauser Rifles to Winchester rifles. I am not trying to step on anyone's toes concerning Winchester rifle, it is just that my preference are Mauser's.

You have given VERY SOUND ADVICE as to having the receiver hardness checked and action magnafluxed. I also appreciate the figures concerning Max allowable pounds of thrust dealing with bolt/action lug sheer. Your comparision between a .416 Taylor and the .404 Jeffery is very interesting and information I did not have available. I do appreciate the information.

I do understand that you nor anyone else here are trying to convince me one way or another, but are only providing information to help me make a sound decision. For all of this information I am very appreciative.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

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