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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
another rifle
      #40148 - 31/10/05 05:43 AM

My new/old Mauser Rifle in 11,2x60 Schüler comes back from the gunmaker and last oktober sun give light for some pictures. Was looking for a rifle in 11,2 x60 since 1992 and buy now such a thing in france. Only good knows the history of this special gun. I think its one of the rarest big bores on this planet, know only 3 – 1 in south africa, 1 in south america and my rifle now. Most of you will remeber this cartridge only from CotW and it have a bad reputation from this source. Something is true and something is not true, true is that the cartridge is in power between the 405 Win and the 375 H&H. This makes allways a good plainsgame cartridge, good for leopard, good for lion and buffalo if a PH stand behind you with his 458 Lott. Some gentleman have shot ele with the cartridge and this was to much. Bullet design was the critical point like allmost everytime.
August Schueler, gunmaker from Suhl develop this cartridge in 1904 as a inexpensive farmer gun for the german colonys in africa. He take the, in germany very popular, 11,2x60 R Mauser case, replace the .445 lead with a .440 softpoint/ full metall and give it a rebated rim like the 8x57 I. Velocity goes to 665 M/ sec with a 21 gramm bullet, so you can call it 11mm Mauser full nitro. This was the very first rebated rim case, something strange like the british belted cases starting in the same time. This rifle here was made from Ernst Steigleder Berlin/Suhl, another old gunmaker family.
In Berlin was the shop for selling the guns making in Suhl. Give you a page
from 1926/27 Ernst Steigleder catalog, you will see that the rifle in the middle is similar in some points with my rifle. Maybe the more powerfull 11,2x72 Schueler was more popular after WW 1., but the 11,2x60 Schueler is still in the cartridge list and we believe that my gun was build in this years. One of my great grandfather’s was born some streets from Steigleder’s shop in Berlin.
Whats with ammo? No problem if you are a reloader.have had a original Mauser in 10,75x68 before but give it away because I realy dont need 2 guns in the same class. The 10,75mm is more complicated, you need allways expensive special brass. The 11,2x60 can be made from any brass from 300 win Mag to 458 win mag. You have to cut the belt from the case and trim the rebated rim to 8mm Mauser dim.. Best is the 458 Win Mag, annealing, full length resizing and trimming to 60mm – ready. Have found some 300 Win Mag cases, will also anneal this brass and blow it out with a fire form load in the chamber.Horneber makes you 11,2x60 brass. I have one in my collection, without a headstamp, you dont need this. Harald Wolf tells me that he have 200 south african made brass cases with correct head stamp. Seems to be that there are more guns in South Africa around.
I get a box with 270 grain flat soft point cartridges, you see it with a 230grain .45ACP and a 300 grain .445 lead bullet. The lead bullet comes from an old german mould for the 11m Mauser. Make a bullet resizing die for the rock chocker and press such oversized bullets down to .440. I wasnt on the range with the rifle but 7 grain Kemira N330 give a fine target load with the full metal and the lead bullet. I believe the ligther full metal give a higher pressure than the lead bullet and so both works with this load. The full metall penetrated 6 inch of soft pine. Reloading is doing with a RCBS die set for the 11,2x60R. The barrel shows a .4385 diameter but I stand with .440 dia. bullet. The gun is proof for this and you can get only problems with a more undersized bullet in the 11mm Mauser seting die. We have a custom bullet maker in gemany,Delsing, who makes 330 grain softpoints. This is the original bullet weigth and the future for hunting loads. Woodleigh make a 400 grain soft point for the 11,2x72, I am in doubt hat this bullet realy works in the short case.


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40385 - 02/11/05 05:20 AM

I am sorry, send some pics to NitroX for post this here for me but he seems not to be at home.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40441 - 02/11/05 06:30 PM

pwm,

E-mail me the pictures and I'll post them for you. My mail ID is guns@mehulkamdar.com

It is actually very simple if you would like to do it yourself. Let me know and I'll explain it to youa s best as I can.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40583 - 04/11/05 02:21 PM

Posting for PWM. I'm drooling as I post!





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:47 PM)


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40584 - 04/11/05 02:23 PM





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:49 PM)


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40586 - 04/11/05 02:30 PM




Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:50 PM)


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40587 - 04/11/05 02:32 PM





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: another rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40597 - 04/11/05 03:02 PM

I'm not so much of a Bolt Gun guy...

But Holy Freakin Wow!!



That thing looks nice.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: another rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40607 - 04/11/05 05:40 PM

Thats what I call a beauty. Can I please have it for my birthday


--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: SAHUNT]
      #40681 - 05/11/05 07:07 AM

thank you mehul, good to see that not all is going wrong this days.
Hope we will go hunting some days in india with this rifle.
this rifle cost me 2150 euros, thats like a fine new Blaser R 93 and believe it or not Blaser find everyday crazy people.
You asking yourself when you buy such a gun if you much more clever than others or they are stupid blind and can't find the diamond in the dust. the gun waiting for me 2 years in this shop before I had the money.
Sahunt, of course you get it
If anyone knows a gentleman with a gun for this cartridge please inform me.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40685 - 05/11/05 07:55 AM

That would be a fun hunt to join.

If I knew where you'd be lurking I'd come out and find the two of you with my Mahillon 16b pinfire rig in hand.

Then we could enjoy some of Mehul's special cocktails afterwards!

Have you shot this bolt gun yet?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: tinker]
      #40686 - 05/11/05 08:02 AM

tinker pinfires are wellcome, I also shoot a 16 bore pinfire double shotgun.
If you have some time(years?) will made a new stock for my von Dreyse needle fire shotgun. than we will be ready for all bird hunting in india.

make only some shots at 20 meter with the target load: 230 grain full metall jacket with 7 grain Kemira N330

Edited by pwm (05/11/05 08:06 AM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40687 - 05/11/05 08:12 AM

I have greatly enjoyed our conversations on the pinfire system and these guns over the past year or so.
I'm sure a time out to hunt together would be great fun.

I was very close to buying an early, very nice, very high grade German double rifle built on the Needlefire System last year. I had lined up quite a pile of things to sell in order to get into that gun.
I finally passed on it as my enthusiasm for it was more of 'an accessory' of my enthusiasm for the pinfire guns.

I'd love to see that shotgun though!


Good for you, got the eleven millimeter out to shoot targets eh? How do you like how the rifle handles?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40720 - 05/11/05 03:44 PM

PWM and Tinker,

The only place in India where non Indians are allowed to hunt boar is the state of Chhatisgarh and permits are sold for $ 50 once a year. Rustam and Lynx would be the people to contact to find out about this and in case you think we could make it sometime in the future, I shall be most happy to plan something. I know that Oldsarge is very keen on a pig hunt in India and he would be a good friend to take along. MacNaughton is another very good friend on these forums who would like to come.

As far as the cocktails are concerned, you gentlemen and all friends from these forums are welcome to my place whenever you visit Chicago. This invitation will always be open.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: another rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40745 - 05/11/05 09:15 PM

I've been looking into finding the proper period sporting bayonet for this gun...




I wonder if it ever actually got out to hunt boar in it's life.
India might be just the place to stick a pig with this thing.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:50 PM)


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: tinker]
      #40777 - 06/11/05 05:41 AM

thats looking very british to me, like for a Baker rifle bayonet.
I never see a needle fire double rifle, do you remeber the maker? when german make, it can be Dreyse, Teschner maybe Berger or Meffert.
I also never see a full rifled bore gun for needle fire cartridge#s but I believe that some build before 1870. Only very special v. Dreyse "Büchsflinten" combination guns on the market from time to time. I dont know if you have seen this before. It looks like a normal Side x Side shotgun but you can remove the chamber from the rigth barrel and put another bullet cartridge chamber into the barrel.
the bullet cartridge camber insert have a short rifled part and this correspond with the smoth shotgun barrel. you can say that this is a upside down paradox system. I think having some pics here laying arround.
MEHUL something is coming

And for the drinks, I am more the port wine man.
Maybe we meet together before in Villa Nova de Gaya, this is a very important part of Porto. I will show you than whats good for your health


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
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Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40778 - 06/11/05 07:34 AM

PWM- if this brass is the same as 6.5 and 8X68, it is fairly easy to get, but expensive. I noticed you mentioned use of magnum ctg. cases. The 6.5x68mm Sheuler case I am familiar with has a .522" head dia. I merely turned the belts on .375H&H brass down to .522" so they'd fit perfectly in the 6.5X68 as well as a 9.5X68 I thought of and chambered up 10 years ago.
: I found WW brass to be about the best, with the highest capacity of the American makes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: another rifle [Re: tinker]
      #40779 - 06/11/05 07:47 AM

This one is Belgian.

I should show you the maker's mark on the barrels to see if you recognise it.

I have been in contact with an English man who collects bayonets, he's shown me a few variants of the proper Belgian sporting bayonet for this gun.
Very expensive though! Sporting bayonets seem to be rare, and the bayonet for this rifle would likely get something in the neighborhood of $2000 - $3000 (USD)
I will likely find a similar short hunting sword from the era and cast new metal handle bits and fashion the grip stocks out of horn. The 'right stuff' is also longer than what I want to use as a hunting knife or bayonet, I'll proabally keep the blade length of what I make for this rifle under 14"

I think you've seen this image before, but this is the first target I printed with that rifle. Those two hits down on the lower left corner are the first right and left barrel hits --right next to each other-- at 50 yards.



As much as I want to do more work on the loads, I think this would be just fine for pigs under the cover of jungle or tight woods!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:51 PM)


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: tinker]
      #40818 - 06/11/05 09:35 PM

Tinker,

The more I see pictures of your rifle the more I would like to see it at first hand. You really have a priceless treasure!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40819 - 06/11/05 09:37 PM

Posting for PWM:





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40820 - 06/11/05 09:40 PM





--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40821 - 06/11/05 09:43 PM



PWM,

At the Greg Martin November auction there is a really beautiful Dreyse shotgun for sale, looking like it was made yesterday. I don;t remember the lot number but if you go here you would see some really nice historical guns.

Thanks for the pictures and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: another rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40830 - 07/11/05 02:21 AM

PWM-

Interesting feature for that gun, the insert looks like a good simple design.
The rifling twist rate is so fast! I guess it needs that if there is only going to be an inch or so of rifling.

The gun looks nice too.

With your new Mauser, what is the performance of that 11mm like with those different three bullets?
What are the weights/velocities of your loads?


Mehul-
I've seen the current catalog from Greg Martin, there are some nice guns out for offer this time, I don't think I'll be bidding on anything though. There's a damascus barreled central fire SxS bore rifle I might show up for just to see what happens with it.

The SxS sixteen bore rifle I pictured here is not the mahillon, it's my other pinfire SxS 16b rifle. This one has shorter barrels, is just over a pound lighter, and runs shorter cartridges. It shoots very flat across 100yards. I have great respect for it as a pig, deer, and close range elk or bear gun. The Mahillon is much more ornate, the barrels are heavier, and it runs at hotter velocities to shoot together.


Still, that Mauser has the kind of Gusto to get me excited about bolt guns. What a honey!



--Tinker








--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: tinker]
      #40833 - 07/11/05 04:30 AM

Daryl, 6,5/8x68 brass is easy to get in krautland but ist more expensive than PMP or Remington 458 win mag brass. The 6,5x68 have a base dia. of 13,30mm when the the 458 win have an dia. of 13,03mm max. after removing the belt on the lathe. The maximum dia. for the 11,2x60 Schueler is 13,05mm and so you see whats the best choice.
I dont like the trouble with necking up such a small neck, you have to aneal and working in many steps and in the end you have spliting cases.
The 6,5x68 brass is thick enough that you can lathe turned it to 13,00mm . So long as 458 win mag brass is available( the next 100 years?) will stay with it.Only 300 win mag brass , you find it sometimes here on the range once fired, will see a fire form load.

Tinker, asking myself what for a needle fire rifle this was, maybe for the english Needham cartridge? You see now what I mean with the upside down Paradox system. I havn’t see it but know that Dreyse build also double shotguns/ double rifles with two of this chamber inserts. This idea comes from tests for converting old smooth bore military muzzle loaders around 1845 and is much older than the paradox gun. Dreyse use this till 1895 when Rheinmetall buy the firm


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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: another rifle [Re: pwm]
      #40835 - 07/11/05 04:59 AM

Tinker, orignal ballistik was 665 m/ sec with a 330 grain bullet . I havn’t more informations, there is something in Cotw, you can see it but this book is allmost doubtful as you know.
I dont think that it will be a problem to work up loads for a 330 grain softpoint. There is a new Blaser cartridge: 45 Blaser or metric 11,7x55 Rb with very similar ballistik. I believe 630 m/sec with a 350 grain bullet. Wolfgang Romey desigh this for Blaser and take the .425 WR cases and a .458 bullet. When you know that the .425 WR is a more powerful copy of the 11,2x60 Schueler you will see that there is nothing new under sun. I dont realy like the guns but will contact Blaser or better Wolfgang Romey for .45 blaser reloading data only to get more informations.
Dont have the time now for serios reloading tests, have the .451 230 grain full metall and the .454 300 grain lead bullets and both working good in the home made bullet resizing die. Make a test with kemira N330 and it works fine from the beginning. This is my powder for reloading 9mm Luger and 9mm Steyer.


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