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buckstix
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Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374830 - 05/03/23 08:09 AM

Quote:

Cast is the only way I can see and 2,000fps to perhaps 2,200fps is about perfect maximum. Then, there is the mould problem.?????

Hello DarylS
Thanks for the reply.

No mold problem! I've purchased a couple dozen custom bullet molds from "Accurate Molds". Their catalog lists 84 different molds for .440 dia with weights ranging from 155g up to 585g. I just got another one in the mail today. His delivery is from 3 - 5 weeks and cost is around $100 for aluminum molds, and $115 for brass molds, and $130 for steel molds. I always get the aluminum molds and they work great. You can specify all kinds of variables when you order, and even design your own if you can't find one you want.

https://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=18#catalog-anchor

Quote:

The problem with this cartridge is that there is no reliable load data.

Hello grandveneur,
Thanks for the reply.

There is actuall a fair amount of loading data. Pierre van der Walt's book "African Dangerous Game Cartridges" lists 14 different loads for 400g bullets. One load is 80g of IMR3031 for 2380 fps.
Load Data lists 20 different loads for 401g bullets. One load is 85g H4895 for 2450 fps.

I have loaded both of those loads with Woodleigh 400g Soft points to an overall loaded case length of 3.400" without compressing the powder.
This rifle's mag box will accept max overall loaded length of 3.450" max, but I kept the length a bit short to prevent any binding.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374832 - 05/03/23 08:23 AM

I'm surprised at the OAL. I did not think much past 3.380" would fit.
Glad you have data. I'd have thought that H4895's would be a better "fit" (vel. and pressure wise) for this round. Obviously no flies on this one.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374835 - 05/03/23 08:25 AM

My magazine only accepts a cartridge length of 84,5 mm. 3.400" is definitely better, also in terms of bullet seating in the case neck.

Unfortunately, I don't know the book from Pierre van der Walt . I determined my loads myself by using among other things the data from the cartridge 404 Jeffery as a approach.

Edited by grandveneur (05/03/23 08:27 AM)

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374836 - 05/03/23 08:36 AM

Hello DarylS - Yes, my mag box is 3.450" max. - I thought that was tight, but I guess not.

Hello grandveneur - 84.5mm = 3.321" - I can easily push the bullets down against the powder in both the loads mentioned above, and get the overall loaded length down to 3.300"

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374847 - 05/03/23 09:01 PM

The picture shows where is a other problem when the bullet is set too deep. The bullet is not well held in the neck of the case.

HATARI TIMES N°11

Edited by grandveneur (05/03/23 09:03 PM)

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374852 - 06/03/23 12:51 AM

Quote:

The picture shows where is a other problem when the bullet is set too deep. The bullet is not well held in the neck of the case.

Hello grandveneur,
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, not much neck support with bullets that have a long ogive. Bullets with a smaller ogive with a more cylindrical shape are better. However bullets pushing down into the case isn't a problem because powder fills the case to the base of the bullet.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374857 - 06/03/23 03:31 AM

Hello buckstix,

I also have already done that, the bullet set on the powder, but I don't trust the procedure that much when it comes to hunting dangerous game species.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374859 - 06/03/23 05:13 AM

Lee will make a "factory crimp die" for you. This is "collet" type of die which allows crimping on bullets that do not have crimping grooves in the correct location. I would suspect that monolithic bullets of any diameter would not be able to be crimped but due to bullet diameter with such a collet die, however that won't be a problem with the 11.2.
On ctg. that have mono bullets, they usually have enough grooves to be not a problem for regular crimping.
I my small case .22 varmint rifles, I have found crimping with the Lee die to work wonderfully- same on the .45/70.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#374861 - 06/03/23 05:31 AM

Woodleigh bullets caliber .440 unfortunately do not have a crimping groove.

One would need bullets like the type originally intended for the cartridge 10,75x68, a cartridge that also must to be relatively short to fit into an unmodified Mauser 98 system. These bullets have a shape and a crimping groove further ahead that allow to set the bullet deeper without any problems. The cartridge 10,75x68 looks in the reality like in the old catalogues. Unfortunately this is not the case for the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
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Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374862 - 06/03/23 05:45 AM

Again - the Lee "Factory Crimp" die does not need a crimping groove as it is a collet-type die.
You can crimp anywhere on the bullet.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#374866 - 06/03/23 05:54 AM

With a cartridge length of around 84mm, you are at the transition from the cylindrical shape of the bullet to the ogival, what is not ideal for crimping.

Back then, Harald Wolf from Hatari Times, a aficionados of the Cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler, had special bullets made for it. Unfortunately, these bullets never went into production.

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themauserkid
.275 member

Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374868 - 06/03/23 06:29 AM

Beautiful rifle, nice pick up! I love Schüler rifles, and I must say I am not completely familiar with their serial sequencing but here is something interesting. My 8x68 Schüler is s/n 28200, barely past yours, and proofed in 1942, and it’s not an old stock action either, it’s roughly a 1941 Astrawerke made piece. I find this quite curious and interesting!

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#374869 - 06/03/23 06:50 AM

Since I never intend to hunt dangerous game with this rifle, bullet crimping is not an issue.
Also, I've been swaging .440 dia bullets for my Werndl rifles and I can change the shape of
Woodleigh bullets to provide a longer cylindrical section.

The cylindrical section of the original Woodleigh 400g round nose is 0.400 inches from the base
to where it starts tapering - the cylindrical section of the swaged bullet is 0.850 inches from
the base to where it starts tapering.

Here's a picture of the before ans after.

Quote:

Beautiful rifle, nice pick up! I love Schüler rifles, and I must say I am not completely
familiar with their serial sequencing but here is something interesting. My 8x68 Schüler is s/n 28200,
barely past yours, and proofed in 1942, and it’s not an old stock action either, it’s roughly
a 1941 Astrawerke made piece. I find this quite curious and interesting!

Hello the mauserkid,
Thanks for the reply.

I would surely think they made more than 42 sporting rifles from 1921 to 1942. Perhaps the numbering
had something to do with caliber. Although the Schuler Co might have been busy making other things
during those years, like their Reform pistol and their teargas pistols. Or perhaps they numbered a
bunch of actions in advance and randomly pulled them from a bin when completing rifles.

Can you post some pictures of your rifle? Is it marked Schuler at the side of the action?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8730
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374870 - 06/03/23 07:31 AM

very likely the tear gas pistols made the large amount

there is an August Schüler 10,75x68 for sale in france https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-SAFARI-AUGUST-SCHULER-10-75x68-item-7987139.html

SN 26190 proofed june 1934

to 28000 in 1942 make 250 guns a year, looks good

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
#374875 - 06/03/23 01:48 PM

Quote:

With a cartridge length of around 84mm, you are at the transition from the cylindrical shape of the bullet to the ogival, what is not ideal for crimping.

Back then, Harald Wolf from Hatari Times, a aficionados of the Cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler, had special bullets made for it. Unfortunately, these bullets never went into production.

What part of "does not need a cannelure to crimp when using a Lee crimp die" fails to be understood?

I understand the OP saying the ctg. does not need a cannelure due to not hunting with it. Since it is using fairly fast(moderate) burning powders and has a slight shoulder, it might not need a crimp to get the powder burning correctly, as can be trouble in a straight sided case.
I found adding a crimp to my straight sided and small shouldered cases improved accuracy due to improved, more consistent ballistics.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#374878 - 06/03/23 03:24 PM

Quote:

... "does not need a cannelure to crimp when using a Lee crimp die" ... I found adding a crimp to my straight sided and small shouldered cases improved accuracy due to improved, more consistent ballistics.

Hello DarylS
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the Lee Factory Crimp Dies works great even on bullets without a cannelure groove. In my case when shooting any of my Dangerous Game Big Bore rifles, I'm satisfied with 1-1/2" to 2" groups at 50 yds. Also, with my "swage-modified" .440 bullets I can use the conventional Seating die (crimp) to form a slight crimp over the bullets newly formed shoulder.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374902 - 07/03/23 04:33 AM

Some years back, CH4D made a cannelure tool for rolling in cannelures in bullets that either don't have them, or they are in the wrong place. Buddy of mine has one & used it to re-roll cannelures on Speer 275gr. .338" SRN bullets.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1124
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#374907 - 07/03/23 09:54 AM

Quote:

Some years back, CH4D made a cannelure tool for rolling in cannelures in bullets that either don't have them, or they are in the wrong place. Buddy of mine has one & used it to re-roll cannelures on Speer 275gr. .338" SRN bullets.

I was thinking of mentioning the same thing. These tools were advertised in some of the older Handloader Digest books I have. There was an article in one of the books showing someone using the tool to cannelure bullets and from memory some semi auto pistol cases, to stop bullets being pushed back into the cases during feeding.

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themauserkid
.275 member

Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: eagle27]
#374910 - 07/03/23 12:42 PM

Buckstix, I find that serial disparity interesting too, and I would have agreed with the setting aside of an action, if it was an old action, however this receiver is roughly a 1940/41 Astrawerke made piece. It is not marked on the sidewall as yours is, but rather on the barrel in 2 or 3 places IIRC, including the intertwined “ASS” trademark. It has some definite similarities to your rifle, for one, the mag well is cut out of the aft end completely, like yours is, to fit the 8x68. In general it conforms to the typical 1940’s style from Schüler and is fit with a Röchling barrel.

Looking forward to your progress with the 11.2 that’s another dream gun! Keep the updates coming please.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#374922 - 07/03/23 10:23 PM

Hello All,
Thanks for the reply.

After doing some diligent research, I was able to acquire a copy of the original ad from when this rifle was first offered for sale many years ago.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: buckstix]
#374927 - 08/03/23 04:18 AM

Exceptional!!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rolf
.333 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 396
Loc: Germany, Bavaria

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#374934 - 08/03/23 06:40 AM

Gentlemen,

the company of Mr. Wim Degol in Belgique produces bullets in dia. .440" for the 11,15x60 (330grs, not intended for the Mauser M71!) and the 11,2x72 Schüler (401grs, FMJRN and RNSP).

I was loading ammunition for the rifle Mr. Harald Wolf manufactured for his report in the Hatari Times.
Powders used were Rottweil R904 and Rottweil R907, conservative reloads produced velocities approaching 700 m/s // 2300fps with the 401 grs bullets and Bertram cases.

Precision was good, taking into account that only a Zeiss 1,5-6 power scope was mounted. The shooter was the limiting factor...

best regards
Rolf

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: Rolf]
#374935 - 08/03/23 07:09 AM

Rolf,
What is the case dimensionally compared to say the .404Jeffery, can it be made from any other case?
The loads I have for my .404 are just a bit more than 2300 fps for the 400gnSP so it is easily comparable performance wise.
Rottweil make very good powders - its a shame, as far as I know they are unavailable here in Australia

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: 93x64mm]
#374939 - 08/03/23 07:58 AM

Quote:

Rolf,
What is the case dimensionally compared to say the .404Jeffery, can it be made from any other case?

Interesting question; the .404 Jeffery is a bit longer than the 11.2x72 so that would be no issue.
I just measured both cases base diameter: Norma .404 Jeffery is ~.540" and Bertram 11.2x72 is ~.533" (rebated rim of course).

Thus it seems that, depending upon how generous the chamber might be, that the .404 could be swaged down and with a little lathe work on base & rim it could be made to work just fine?

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: My search is over - my newly acquired 11.2x72 Schuler Mauser [Re: 3DogMike]
#374940 - 08/03/23 08:53 AM

Hello 93x64mm,

According to the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, you can make 11.2x72 cases from 404J brass. Case capacity in water is virtually identical. Also some old Bertram brass measured .441. The new stuff measures .436. Spinning a 404J case in a lathe and touching the head with a file will easily remove a couple thousands from the head dia. Then simply cut a new rebated head with extractor groove.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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