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mckinney
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Mauser Type S
      #363721 - 21/03/22 04:59 AM

Does anyone know if some Mauser Type S rifles were not stocked all the way to the muzzle?

I have one in 7 m/m purchased years ago at Holts that has a stock ending about 2 inches short of the muzzle. All other features of the rifle are pure Type S.

I also saw one in 8 m/m online recently.

Wondering if these are factory rifles or if they’ve been modified. If the latter, seems like a strange modification to make, although I could see where it might be worthwhile for a rifle in the rack of a 1930’s safari vehicle.


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eagle27
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363729 - 21/03/22 12:26 PM

Ludwig Olson's book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" has a fairly extensive section on Mauser Sporters and lists seven patterns of Type S Mauser's. The differences in patterns is related to sights, triggers and barrels. All patterns share the same features; 19.69" barrel, stocked to the muzzle, schnabel fore-end tip without cap, pear shaped bolt knob, steel capped pistol grip, hard rubber butt plate. There is no reference to variations in stock.

I would suggest that Type S Mauser rifles with stocks not to the muzzle have been modified after leaving the factory possibly for the reason given of better racking of the rifle in vehicles.


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Huvius
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: eagle27]
      #363744 - 22/03/22 02:57 AM

If it has a longer barrel than a standard Type S, it could be a Type G.
What does the stamping in the stock suggest?

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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: Huvius]
      #363755 - 22/03/22 07:53 AM


Huvius

I don't have the Archive book so I don't know much about the Type G. I could find virtually nothing on it online, but I did turn up a photo of a Type G on this forum. Aren't the Type G rifles stocked all the way to the muzzle?

The barrels on both my rifles are 20" inches, give or take a fraction, depending on where you measure from. They look a bit like the Africa models but with shorter barrels.

I'll make some more precise measurements and try post some photos in a day or two - rifles not together at the moment.

The work looks factory to me, but nothing like photos.


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Huvius
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363762 - 22/03/22 12:23 PM

I had a TypeG that I'm sure I posted here on NE.
The G is quite similar to the African model. The only way I for sure knew mine was a G is that it was stamped in the barrel channel with a 'G' preceding the serial number matching the action.
Gs having a little schnabel in the forend where African models were smooth out to the end. Not 100% sure though.
If your barrel is 20", I agree that it probably is a TypeS with a shortened stock.

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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: Huvius]
      #363763 - 22/03/22 12:53 PM

The barrel channel of the 7 m/m is stamped with a “W” below the serial number. It has a serial number in the 95000 range indicating 1926-7 manufacture of the action according to Speed.

I don’t know about the 8 m/m. Will have to check.


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eagle27
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: Huvius]
      #363765 - 22/03/22 01:08 PM

Olson's book does not contain any reference to a Type G Mauser Sporter.

His book lists data from the 1930 Mauser Co catalog as follows; Type A, Type B, Type K, Type S and Type M plus the African model, and all the Patterns of each Type that were produced as factory standard. Other features were available on special order.

The Type S and Type M carbines (19.69" barrel) were both stocked to the muzzle, the Type S having a slight schnabel finish to the end of the stock and the Type M having a steel band and end cap at the muzzle. The Type M carbine had a flat bolt handle as opposed to the Type S having the pear shaped knob.

The G preceding the serial number stamped in the barrel channel is maybe the first letter of the code word for the pattern of Mauser. For example the Type A Mauser uses W and Y as the first letter of the code words for Type A patterns, my Mauser Type A Pattern No. 1 has W stamped in the barrel channel. I do not have Jon Speed's book which has the codes for the different types and patterns (I only have a copy of the list from his book of codes for the Type A patterns and I presume he does list the codes for the other Mauser types).


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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: eagle27]
      #363770 - 22/03/22 02:08 PM

The 7 m/m rifle I have is a variation 250 according to Speed. The code word for that variation in 7 m/m is “yavsy”

Interesting, these code words. They remind me of Griffin and Howe pricing codes as shown in the sales records in the early days. I don’t know why they didn’t just write the price. Old World German influences?

I looked at the code words for other Mausers and it seems that only the types A and B have code words beginning in “W” and then only for some variations. Other variations have code words beginning in Y.

From a quick glance it appears that code words for all Types M, S, and K begin with “Y”.

No idea how they arrived at these code words. They are all 5 letters, the first of which is always “W” or “Y” (if I didn’t overlook something). That would make the total available words equal to 2 x 26 to the fourth - so more than adequate for all their variations. I suppose these words were used only internally?

As to letters stamped in the stocks, I have no idea. Does the Archive book go into this further?


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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363921 - 26/03/22 07:36 AM

Some photos of the Type "s" rifles:

I bought the 7mm in a sealed bid auction in 2005 and have just gotten around to looking at it. It came with leather extensions that increased the LOP to 15 1/2. Fortunately the wood wasn't cut and the original buttplate was screwed on over the extensions. The rifle has been well used and abused. It would be interesting to know where and who. The stock is numbered to the gun and has a "W" stamped in it next to the serial number. The end of the stock doesn't appear factory to me.

I bought the 8mm recently. If not for the matching serial numbers, I would think it had been restocked due to the different checkering pattern on the forearm. There is an illegible letter stamped in the barrel channel. I don't know what the stenciled numbers and symbol on the buttstock indicate - military or police use? The stock cut-off is a little more elegant on this one. Perhaps it is some factory variation?

Sorry about the scrambled order of the photos. Struggled with the hosting app as usual.

https://i.ibb.co/3WPJJ5n/7-x-57-0.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/59j7jSV/IMG-5655.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/BP25tGN/IMG-5652-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/8MRdSyy/IMG-5631-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ckGyp5G/IMG-5630-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/MpCppJy/IMG-5629.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/FYBvw4W/IMG-5628-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qynVnDv/both-3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/G2qx9QS/both-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/GnJkwSk/both-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/t4szWXY/8-x-57-10.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/gwfrR4r/8-x-57-9.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/g4LsyXs/8-x-57-8.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/yYmswVD/8-x-57-7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/PY0ts7R/8-x-57-6.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/VjGHqvD/8-x-57-5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sQR4C1v/8-x-57-4.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/KysYTW1/8-x-57-3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/XtqBLpz/8-x-57-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fkfL2b5/8-x-57-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/mFVJBf9/7-x-57-7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/S339qNK/7-x-57-6.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/cCgnCnj/7-x-57-5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/G3NHyBt/7-x-57-4.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/hHKGy4Y/7-x-57-3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/jgXLsBN/7-x-57-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nLYj5d9/7-x-57-1.jpg


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lancaster
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363930 - 26/03/22 05:50 PM























































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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363935 - 26/03/22 08:46 PM

Quote:



I bought the 7mm in a sealed bid auction in 2005 and have just gotten around to looking at it.

I bought the 8mm recently.




I'm glad to read it took you 17 years! Now I don't feel so bad about 12 years for some of mine.

I quite like these full wood style rifles. Unusual full wood 8n a non military bolt action.

Excepting the Steyr Mannlicher-Schoenauer stutzens full wood rifles of course and copies of them.

These rifles remind me of Harald Wolf's .458 Win Mag "Jungle Rifle". Similarly stocked from memory.

I wonder, are their practical advantages to a full wood to the muzzle stocked rifle?

One must be, especially for thinner barrels, some protection from bumps and bends. As in mountain hunting.

Any others?



Nice.

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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: NitroX]
      #363951 - 27/03/22 01:11 AM

Thanks for the assist with the photos. That made all the difference.

Good question on the full length stocks. I've always though it was about the aesthetics but maybe it also aids in pointing, sight picture, etc, especially for a carbine? It must be hard to find a suitable stock blank to build such a rifle, particularly if you want figure in the butt.

The 7mm rifle looks like it has been repaired at the wrist on the right side. But after looking it over carefully with a friend, we could find no evidence of a repair and decided it must be a knot in the wood figure. He had a word for it which I've forgotten. There is a shallow vertical hairline crack
that runs through the checkering at the wrist - have ordered some extra thin glue to repair it. I've cleaned the checkering. Other than that and finding some proper Mauser screws to reattach the worn original butt plate, I think I'll leave it as it is. Not as it left the factory, but feels pretty good and has some character. Not much chance of learning who owned it, but you never know.

The bore is 'shiny' but I'll have to shoot it to see what it will do. I'd be happy with 2.5" at 100 yds.


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2152hq
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #363957 - 27/03/22 02:39 AM

Quote:

The 7 m/m rifle I have is a variation 250 according to Speed. The code word for that variation in 7 m/m is “yavsy”

Interesting, these code words. They remind me of Griffin and Howe pricing codes as shown in the sales records in the early days. I don’t know why they didn’t just write the price. Old World German influences?

I looked at the code words for other Mausers and it seems that only the types A and B have code words beginning in “W” and then only for some variations. Other variations have code words beginning in Y.

From a quick glance it appears that code words for all Types M, S, and K begin with “Y”.

No idea how they arrived at these code words. They are all 5 letters, the first of which is always “W” or “Y” (if I didn’t overlook something). That would make the total available words equal to 2 x 26 to the fourth - so more than adequate for all their variations. I suppose these words were used only internally?

As to letters stamped in the stocks, I have no idea. Does the Archive book go into this further?




I believe the code words are international telex (telegraph) code words.
Usually no more than a 4 or 5 letter 'code' for a specific Model sometimes that Model w/ certain options
Used for ordering specific merchandise from anywhere w/o the problem or possibility of a language barrier being the cause for a mistake in translation. That leading to an order being filled with some wrong specs or options.

Savage Arms Co had all of their arms tagged with a telex code as well in their early catalogs from pre WW1. I don't recall how long they continued to use them in the catalogs.


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lancaster
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: 2152hq]
      #363971 - 27/03/22 06:40 AM

make sense

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: lancaster]
      #364003 - 28/03/22 08:35 AM

It does make sense. An old telexed purchase order would prove it.

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #364017 - 29/03/22 02:16 AM

To me both foreends seem to be shortened after they left the factory. I don’t know why, but the naked wood Schnabel foreend tip of the S-type carbines is much more vulnerable to bumps and chipping than the steel-clad ones of M-types and Mannlicher-Schoenauers. Maybe it was done to remove some unsightly damage?
Apparently I can shed some light on the number D945, the circled KM mark and four pinholes on the 8x57I carbine # 70285, dateable to 1913. This is not a sporterised military rifle, but a militarised sporter! There ought to be a military acceptance eagle stamp on the right top of the barrel too. Very rare and forgotten now after more than hundred years, these were the first modern sniper rifles of WW1. Here is something I wrote about these rifles years ago for Waidmannsheil!”, a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association, www.germanguns.com :
When the Great War broke out September 1914, none of the adversaries envisioned the course it would take. The armies were prepared to engage adversaries attacking upright over open battlefields at long and even longer ranges, whole companies firing volleys on command. So the German Gewehr 98 had a sight calibrated up to 2000 meters, nearly one and a quarter mile, but the lowest "battle sight" setting was a full 400 meters, 437 yards. This made the rifles shoot about 7 inches high at 100 yards. No one had yet envisioned the effect of the new-fangled machineguns firing flat-trajectory smokeless loads and the massed fire of infantry rifles made any movement more than a foot over ground suicide. This forced the opposing armies to dig themselves into trenches, where they remained stuck for the next four years. The usual fighting ranges shrank to 30 to 150 yards and targets shrunk small. The greatest menace to any attempt of attack were the machine guns. Both sides soon emplaced their machineguns behind protective steel plates, firing through small loopholes. The destruction of enemy MGs in spite of the armor plates was of utmost importance. The British tried in vain to solve the problem using raw power: They tried to use big-game rifles, .40" caliber up, firing solids, to smash the plates. Jeffery of London even supplied a few single-shot rifles in .600 NE to the Royal Navy Marines, who opposed the German marines in the flat fields of Flanders, close to the sea.
Late in 1914 some young German officers tried another approach to the problem. One of them used his scoped 8x57 hunting rifle. With five shots at ranges of about 100 yards they managed to hit into the small steel plate apertures, each time putting the enemy gun and/or gunner out of action. After their report of such success, the German army deemed a scoped rifle an useable tool for trench warfare, but the army had never thought about riflescopes. As usual with any army, developing and testing an issue scoped rifle would take some time, so stop-gap action was necessary.
In January 1915 Prince Ratibor, the then president of the German Hunters Association, openly appealed to the German hunters to donate their scoped, 8x57 hunting rifles to the war effort. Soon many such rifles of all makes and action types were sent to the frontlines. As civilian cartridges and loads were not standardized then, many break-open rifles for the rimmed numbers perhaps mixed in and some of the private rifles were used and misused before, firing the issue S cartridge led to some unspecified accidents. So the rifles were withdrawn from the front shortly to be inspected by military arsenals. Only rifles on Mauser M98 actions were to be accepted and issued, marked with a circled crown over KM on the stock. Those suitable for the then standard .323" bullet S cartridge were stamped with a Z-prefix registration number, while those read deemed suitable only for the limited standard old .318" bullet Patrone 88 cartridge got a D-prefix number. Apparently arsenal staff thought this D or Z marking sufficient at first. But soldiers usually don’t read instruction manuals, so soon the .318", D-marked rifles got a metal plate too, with the warning "Nur für Patrone Mod.88" (for cartridge 88 only!) and a sketch of the distinguishing round nose bullet of that load. There is a photo of a German sniper in Senich's book that shows such a credit card size plate.
By April 1915 the Prussian Army (yes, there were still the armies of the other German states, f.i. the Bavarian, Saxonian and so on) alone reported having 3700 donated rifles issued plus 1000 bought in from dealer's shelves, but this supply still did not meet demand. Jon Speed gave me additional documents from the Mauser factory. Many thanks! Additional to a photo showing German soldiers with scoped commercial "African model" Mauser Sporters, there are three ledger entries from 1915: In February 1915 Mauser shipped 334 "Repetierpirschbüchsen" = hunting rifles to the "Königliche Gewehrfabrik Spandau" = Prussian arsenal in Spandau. Another 600 sporters went to Spandau June 15, 1915. The "Artillerie Depot Karlsruhe" received 1282 such rifles in 1915, intended for the Southern German armies.
By 1916 the military bureaucracy had finally accepted a way to convert selected Gewehr 98 infantry rifles to snipers: Bolt handles were bent down with a stock cutout below and commercial scopes mounted by several civilian gunsmithes using several mounting systems. During summer 1916 the stop-gap sporting rifles were withdrawn from the fronts, put into storage and replaced with regular "Scharfschützengewehr 98" sniper rifles. As scopes were in short supply these were removed from the sporters and mounted on the new rifles.


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lancaster
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: kuduae]
      #364020 - 29/03/22 04:12 AM

thank you very much for the short history lesson, very interesting topic!







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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mckinney
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: kuduae]
      #364033 - 29/03/22 01:06 PM

Thank you for that fascinating information. I’m sure there’s not one chance in a hundred I would ever have discovered it myself. I’ll look at the rifle again and see if the other barrel markings you mention are present.

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: mckinney]
      #364038 - 29/03/22 05:13 PM

A left hand sniper rifle?



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Daryl


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: DarylS]
      #364044 - 29/03/22 06:03 PM

Thanks very much Kuduae for a long and detailed informative comment.

Daryl, it might be a reversed image? Of a leftie?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: NitroX]
      #364048 - 29/03/22 08:46 PM

Two more photos of early German WW1 snipers with Mauser sporting rifles:
A Karl Hartmann from Hallendorf, now part of Salzgitter near Brunswick.
Here you can see the warning tin plate that was nailed on the buttstock of 8x57I / M88 cartridge rifles.

Another with a Mauser sporter mounted with a long eye relief Voigtlaender “Skopar D” 3x scope.

The Prussian military acceptance “eagle” mark on the barrel of a Mauser sporter.


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lancaster
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: kuduae]
      #364049 - 29/03/22 10:07 PM

ok,have seen this when it was postet but was to lazy to change it



better now?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: kuduae]
      #364102 - 30/03/22 03:59 PM

Quote:


Apparently I can shed some light on the number D945...




Indeed, you have.

A fascinating and informative post!

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mauser Type S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #364103 - 30/03/22 04:10 PM

Advert for later commercial version with interesting 'weasel copy' for the U.S. market:


1939 Stoeger


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