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CDL
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
BRNO ZKK 602
      #36373 - 24/08/05 12:08 AM

I know you guys have a wealth of knowledge on here and was wondering what people can tell me about the BRNO ZKK 602?

Im thinking about getting one in 375H&H and want to know about the actions and quality of the gun.

What do you have for me fella's?

Anybody know of any good write-ups?



--------------------
CDL
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DarylS
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36377 - 24/08/05 01:16 AM

I had the very rifle you mention, but it started ut as a .358 Norma Mag. For several years I shot the .358- hunting, and with cast bullets in competition 3-position shooting at 100 yd. With 250 Speers it was amazingly accurate, well under 1/2MOA with a 12X scope for winning turkey shoots, but at 2,900fps, they were a bit soft for Moose and Elk.
: In 1975 I rebarreled it with an original .375 M602 barrel. The sight lugs came top-dead-centre and it headspaced perfectly- an amazing feat - or plum lucky.
: This is a heavy rifle, going almost 11 lb. with scope, (11 lb. even in .358 mag) but what a beautiful shooting rifle it was. The recoil was soft and with 6 rounds in the magazine, express-type sights and a flip-up peep, all aspects came together to make tight shooting easy.
: It-too was exceptionally accurate with all .375 bullets available at that time, including exceptional accuracy with cast bullets for plinking.
: That is what I know of the ZKK602BRNO.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36379 - 24/08/05 01:45 AM

CDL,

Ditto to everything previous poster said plus

Try to get a 602 and not a 550.
602's are great actions - heavy but strong and accurate - or at least all the ones
I have are.
You can slim them down abit in the wood that makes them lighter.
In Australia you see a lot that are worn on the outside but perfect bores
as they get carried alot deer hunting.
You can't go wrong buying them.
500 Nitro


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DarylS
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36393 - 24/08/05 06:39 AM

Further to what i wrote earlier- one intrepid shooter at the local (at taht time) range, re-barreled a 602 to .50 Barnes Supreme- shooting 600gr. Barnes around 2,800fps. 125gr. of 3031 was the load if I remember correctly. It was a great kicker - spun me around like a weathercock on the one and only shot I fired - offhand, thankfully. He'd built the rifle to only 8 1/2 lbs. and thought it was a wonderful "Moose" rifle - just great!
: 20 min later, I went back to shooting my .375 BRNO (his original 602 barrel) and it felt like a triple deuce match rifle, in comparrison.
: It is indeed a great action, suitable for 'growing' with future plans if desired.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mickey
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36405 - 24/08/05 11:31 AM

Do a search of AdamTaylor here on this site. He collects BRNO and has a few 602s.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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cr500
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36430 - 24/08/05 09:56 PM

I,m a ZKK 602 convert.
6 Rounds in the mag.
Controled round feeding
pop up peep sight in the back of the action (some models)
Long enough to seat bullets out in the longest cases.
Cheap price
good quality forged action.
I,m looking to trade my weatherby in 300 weatherby in on a ZKK 602 (to convert back into 300 weatherby as well) as the weatherbys 3 round mag capacity ,unreliable feeding ,too short mag length is turning me off.


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new_guy
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36441 - 25/08/05 02:01 AM

In reply to:

I know you guys have a wealth of knowledge on here and was wondering what people can tell me about the BRNO ZKK 602?

Im thinking about getting one in 375H&H and want to know about the actions and quality of the gun.

What do you have for me fella's?

Anybody know of any good write-ups?




They are great and can offer a pretty good discount off of a new 550 if you find one priced right. I stumbled into one about 2-years ago for $500.00 US and love it. Shoots great, and the stock is quite a bit "slimmer" overall than the new 550s (a real plus for carrying and handling.)

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36482 - 25/08/05 03:28 PM

It is a great firearm, and I've never had any problems with my 602 or other Brno's. I have a photocopy of Chapter 27 "Czech Brno Sporting Rifles" from a book whose name I can not remember. I'll have time to trace it down next week. Jon R. Sundra wrote an article called "A Pair of Aces from CZ" which was published in both The Complete Rifleman #26 and Deer & Big Game Rifles Vol. 14 #1 2005. In it he compares the 602 to the new 550. The ZKK series ran from about 1965 to 1985. If anyone knows of newer ones please let me know, the date of manufacture will be stamped on the left hand side of the firearm.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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safari_hunter
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #36500 - 25/08/05 11:16 PM

AdamTayler,

My 602 was made in 1990


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DarylS
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #36502 - 25/08/05 11:56 PM

Last fall, I picked up a new unfired 600 7X57 made in 1990 as well.
: The gun shop has 4 of them left- 3 are m6007X57's and one m601 in .308 Win. All unfired, all $495 to $500(.308 motecarlo stock) in CDN funds. Presently, that's about $400.00 US.
: Mine shoots just over 1/2" with Fed.140gr.Speer & Bell 175 Norma srn factory.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36579 - 28/08/05 11:33 AM

Daryl S,

You have a PM. Thanks.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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luv2safari
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36581 - 28/08/05 12:25 PM

I thought the 602 was a better rifle in most ways to the 550 series. I much prefer the 550 set trigger to the 602 trigger, however.

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new_guy
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36629 - 30/08/05 05:17 AM

PM sent... I want one of those 7.57s too!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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GG375
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36655 - 31/08/05 08:21 AM

CDL

Whatever you do, don't let a certain Brno "expert" gunsmith from Tantawongalo anywhere near it if you eventually get one. I had a lovely 1967 version in 375, sent the barrel to the states for reboring to .416 (this was before the 550 came on the market)then sent it to this jerk for the mag/feed rail mods. He completely wrecked the action and had to make a claim on his insurance. Replaced it with a 550 action - I would much rather of had the 602!!!

Cheers.

GG


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mehulkamdar
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #36661 - 31/08/05 11:09 AM

Daryl S,

Thanks and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: CDL]
      #36664 - 31/08/05 12:51 PM

CDL

In my opinion the Brno ZKK 600 series (600 standard length action, 601 short length action, 602 true magnum length action) are the finest factory produced bolt action rifles ever made. The quality is far superior to the new CZ 550's. IMHO, comparing a Brno ZKK to a CZ 550 is like trying to campare green grapes to watermellon, both are green but there is no comparison. The Brno ZKK 602 is a true magnim action and as such will handle all the long cartridges. Even Rigby has used these actions to build rifles.

After I purchased my first Brno ZKK 600 in 7x57, I sold all of my other rifles and started purchasing Brno ZKK rifles. Brno ZKK rifles are all that I own or will ever own in a bolt rifle. I am always looking for more to purchase, and if anyone knows where there is one for sale, I would appreciate hearing from you.

If you don't have a copy of "Bolt Action Rifles, Frank de Haas and Dr. Wayne van Zwoll) may I suggest you purchase one. That reference book will tell you all about Brno ZKK rifles and all other bolt action rifles made. You can also read on the internet (THE VIEW FROM THE VELD, by Chris Bekker studies the Mauser Action). You can also get information on the (375 H&H Magnum Page) of the internet. There is information about the Brno ZKK and detailed information about the inferior CZ 550.

I hope this info. will help you.

Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others.


--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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AdamTayler
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #36683 - 01/09/05 02:31 AM

I knew someone would have the title out before I could post!

Thanks to those that gave me the dates on their rifles. I remember seeing ads for the Brno ZKK series of rifles in about '95/'96 but I'm trying to find out if they were still producing rifles in those years or just selling off old stock.

As well my 602 made in '71 has the pop up aperture and cross bolt while my '85 model does not. Both are without a barrel band so have the front swivel in the forestock.

Another cool feature about these rifles is the trigger can be adjusted by a screw located in the safety locking lug recess.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: GG375]
      #36702 - 01/09/05 12:53 PM

GG375

Where is this wonderful gunsmith from

TANTAWONGALO ???

Where in the world is that at???? Talk about a mouth full!

Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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safari_hunter
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #36717 - 01/09/05 11:11 PM

I purchased my (1990) ZKK-602 new in '97. A few others I looked at were also made in 1990.

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cr500
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #36763 - 02/09/05 06:22 PM

Mauser rifle. Count me in on the part about all your rifles being ZKK602s. Ive just come back from a hunt and had problems as usual with my Weatherby in 300WBY. Its now going cheap and i,m after another 602 to make into a 300 WBY. The ZKK602 in 458 Lott went very well as usual. My 308 will be replaced with a ZKK600 as well. As you said ,if anyone has any spare 602s (in Australia) drop me a line and if the price is right ,I will buy it off you.

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mickey
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #36770 - 02/09/05 10:08 PM

MauserRifle

I believe TANTAWONGALO is in Australia.

Would you mind putting your location in your profile so we can see where the people we are talking to are from?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: cr500]
      #36807 - 03/09/05 02:28 PM

cr500

I believe that the Brno ZKK rifles are the best factory produced rifles ever made as far as strength, accuracy, durability and price are concerned. They are not perfect in there factory form, but everything about them is of quality construction. For about $500.00 dollars US a good gunsmith can turn them into the equalivent of a high dollar custom gun. Outside of fancier wood, I have seen $10,000.00 guns that were of no better quality.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: mickey]
      #36808 - 03/09/05 02:32 PM

Mick

Sorry about that, I just over looked that item. I think I got everything now?

Thank You for the information on the location. I doub't I will have to worry about running into that one real soon.


--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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wharf
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38563 - 02/10/05 10:51 AM

Gday fellas,I have a mod 602 in 300winmag,I am very keen to rebarrel it to a 416 rigby,Has any one done this and what sort of work is going to have to be done?

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if it bleeds we can kill it.


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: wharf]
      #38578 - 02/10/05 04:07 PM

wharf

You say you have a Brno ZKK 602 in 300 Win. Mag, humm. I don't claim to be an expert in anything, but I have owned many, many bolt action rifles in just about evey make and several custom rifles. I only use Brno ZKK bolt rifles now and doubt that I will ever switch to another brand as I feel they are one of the best commercial rifles ever built for the money. They are not perfect in my opinion, but are as strong a foundation as one can buy. With a competent gunsmith and about $500.00 U.S. you can have a great custom rifle that will do anything a custom rifle costing $8000.00 or more will do.

I am only guessing, but I would say your rifle has already been rebarreled if it is a 602 action in 300 Win. Mag.. To my knowledge, all 300 Win Mags. were built on the 601 action. The 602 action was used for 375 H&H and larger calibers. Again, this is to my knowledge. I have never seen a 300 Win. Mag on a 602 action from the factory.

There is no reason why a compentent gunsnith couldn't convert your rifle over to a 416 Rigby. As far as what he will have to do to the rifle outside of rebarreling and sights I cannot say for sure due to the fact that I suspect the action has already been rebarreled as I mentined before. The 602 is a true magnum length action and will handle any of the magnum cartridges. Also, these actions and rifles are very well made and hell bent for stoutness. These actions are being used for farr larger calibers than the 416 Rigby, which is a low pressure cartridge anyway.

I am thinking about having one of my Brno ZKK 602 in 375 H&H rebarreled to 416 Rigby myself. IMO, the 416 Rigby is a great cartridge and the best of the 416 calibers. So go ahead and have it converted, I can see no reason why you would have any problems. Just make sure you use a compentent gunsith.



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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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safari_hunter
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38586 - 02/10/05 06:35 PM

MauserRifle,

The 602 came chambered in 300 Win Mag from the factory. The 601 was never chambered for belted magnums.


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wharf
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: safari_hunter]
      #38590 - 02/10/05 09:14 PM

My rifle is deffinately a factory 300winmag.I think they were chambered in 300winmag,375h&hmag and 458winmag.Its a 1987 model.If the cost of rebarreling is goin to be close to what i paid for it,I think I will keep it a 300winmag.Does the CZ 550 come out chambered in 416 rigby?I had a look at a site today but I couldnt find a 416rigby chambered rifle.

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if it bleeds we can kill it.


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Gadge
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: wharf]
      #38592 - 02/10/05 10:53 PM

Sure does. See here .
A few other cals like .404Jeff and .505 Gibbs are in the pipeline too, apparently, at least for the US market.

--------------------
Cheers,
Doug


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500Nitro
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: Gadge]
      #38593 - 02/10/05 11:08 PM


You see them for sale every so often.

Just keep your eyes out and you'll pick one up.

500 Nitro


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iqbal
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38599 - 03/10/05 01:27 AM

I totally agree.These rifles are strong and accurate.Although I dont have a 602 I do own a 452 in .22 which can be fitted with a silencer.Man,the fun i've had with this rifle,shooting crows from my roottop without anyone being the wiser except of course the one in whose house the dead crow falls and has to stay indoors until all the other crows in the neighberhood cool off.

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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: safari_hunter]
      #38611 - 03/10/05 06:22 AM

safari_hunter

I stand corrected, thank you for the information. I have a fairly good collection of Brno ZKK's, but in all honesty would be a poor person to ask for information on a 300 Win. Mag. in an brand of rifle as I personally have never liked that caliber and have no use for it at all.

Most people probably consider me a throw back from times gone by as I consider the GREAT 7X57 AND 375 H&H to be the finest calibers ever developed and enough gun to take any animal anywhere. Admitedly, I have one of my 458's opened up to 458 Lott and am considering rebarreling another rifel to 416 Rigby, as I personally feel this is another GREAT cartridge.

These are my opinions for what they are worth, but I again thank you for the info. on the 602 in 300 Win. Mag.





--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: wharf]
      #38612 - 03/10/05 06:33 AM

wharf

You might want to do some reading about what others have to say about the new CZ's. There are several posts through out this fourm and others on the internet of people that have purchased new CZ's and are not very happy!

I believe that most people will tell you that there is no comparison between the Brno's and new CZ's.

This information is only offered to help you make a decision before spending your hard earned money.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38851 - 07/10/05 02:54 PM

Could not help seeing this:

Here is the skinny on the Koucky brothers Rifle series
( Brno ZKK)












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AdamTayler
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38852 - 07/10/05 03:15 PM

Alf

When doing a search on Google a while ago, I came across a web site concerning Brno's that claimed the 602 was also chambered in 404 J. Have you heard of this?

Adam

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38853 - 07/10/05 03:15 PM








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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38855 - 07/10/05 03:32 PM

ALF

That is great information! Where did you come across this information? Was this in a book, web page or where?

If in a book I would like to get may hands on a copy!

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #38858 - 07/10/05 03:36 PM

Hello Adam,

Do you happen to have the web page where you found that info.

BTW, I just missed two Brno ZKK 602's in 375 H&H yesterday by about 2 hours. They were both older models in mint condition and one had the pop up peep sight!

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38860 - 07/10/05 04:33 PM

This is my own data collected over many years. The rifles are from my own collection

I have been researching Brno rifles for some time and have been posting mainly on AR.

here is some stuff on the Koucky Rimfires.



ZKM No. 1


ZKM N0.2


ZKM no. 3 ( the No 4 is identical bar changes to the trigger mechanism)


ZKM No. 5


ZKM 581


Rare ZKM 468



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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38861 - 07/10/05 04:45 PM

Some reworked rifles:

ZKK 602 in 375



ZKK 602 in 416 Rem Mag:

[image]
]http://photos.imageevent.com/alffromafrica/africa04/websize/113_1364.JPG[/image]

The early 1970's pop up peep:



The ZKW 22 Hornet: Another Koucky design



The original WW2 Meopta ZFK 43 scope adapted for the Brno ZKM No. 1 rifle.



As to the 404 Jeffery:

It is reported that CZ built ZKK's in this caliber. I have not seen one nor have I ever heard of one in the flesh so to speak. Nor have I seen or actually have confirmation of the 416 Rem mag that was supposedly built in the early 90's before the CZ550 was released.


Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:38 PM)


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Boomer
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38885 - 08/10/05 05:45 AM



My 602 is perhaps the best bolt action hunting rifle I have ever owned. It is however a work in progress. When I got the rifle the original barrel had been shortened to 20". In the shortening process the front sight was ruined, and this combined with the fact that the bore was pitted, and the fact that I had access to a new barrel meant that the rifle would be quickly sent out to a gunsmith. I had originally thought of going to .378 Weatherby, but the cost of the brass had me settle for .375 RUM. By the way, the new 20" barrel chambered for the Ultra cartridge gives me the same velocities one would expect from an H&H chambering with a 26" barrel. The new barrel was a Smith Stainless fluted job with a Ruger front ramp already installed. The gunsmith made up a beautiful quarter rib which he inletted for a set of Talley QD rings. Here is when I learned that a gunsmith who is a wiz with benchguns might not know quite enough about the effects recoil has on a rifle stock. I asked for cross ribs - he said I didn't need em - next I had to drop not an inconsiquential amount of money - needlessly I thought - into a McMillan fiberglass stock. My new gunsmith - who performs magic apparently - understands what happens when a powerful rifle recoils - and the rifle is bedded accordingly - with cross bolts I might add. The new stock may prove to be a better idea anyway from a tough and stable point of view. It did create a new problem which I will have addressed over the next winter, and that is when I shoot rapid fire the knuckle of my middle finger gets sharply wrapped by the back of the trigger guard. The first shot is not a problem - neither is slow fire because I keep a low grip. In rapid fire however I am inclined to grip the pistol grip higher, bringing my unfortunate digit closer to get clubbed. I'll get my smith to design a filler for behind the trigger guard similar I'm thinking to those which used to be available for S&W revolvers which were issued with small grips. We have not as yet found a successful ghost ring rear sight, but that is also in the works.

--------------------



Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:39 PM)


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38890 - 08/10/05 03:12 PM

ALF

Could it be that the Koucky Brothers workd for one of the Brno companys as the name changed several times through out the years as did the ownership. Could they have been the engineers and designers or maybe even part owners of the company? I have an article someplace, that I came on to by accident while serching the internet for other gun related information that went into great detail about the history of Brno rifles from their start through the end of the Brno ZKK's as we know them.

As I recall, the company came to be in the late 1800's and was at one time the official armory for Austria. I have all of this information stored somewhere, either in printed form or on disks. I went from a PC to a new laptop computer about six months ago, and I will have to do some searching for all that information.

At any rate, I appreciate all the information you have provided everyone concerning the Brno ZKK rifles.

You have some very impressive Brno rifles in your collection. I have concentrated on the ZKK series of rifles and have not collected any of the others.

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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: Boomer]
      #38891 - 08/10/05 03:17 PM

Boomer

Sounds like you have done a considerable amount of work on your Brno. That rifle didn't happen to come from Alaska? I ask his because one of my Brno's came from Alaska and the previous owner had also had the barrel cut down to 20 inches. The dealer that handled the transaction said it was quite common for hunters in Alaska to have their rifle barrels cut down to 20 inches.

Good luck with your project!

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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38894 - 08/10/05 05:13 PM

Mauser Rifle:

The early history of ZB and CZ are well mapped out. They were and are to this day two separate companies.

What few in the American gun world understand is how the Warsaw pact ran their arms companies. I have this on file as part of my studies into the history of czech arms manufcature. This is the one part that I still need to clean up as it gets confusing, bear with me and I'll post it.

Edited by ALF (08/10/05 05:29 PM)


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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38906 - 09/10/05 08:27 AM

ALF

I am aware that ZB and CZ are two seperate companys. If I remember correctly, the Brno company actually originated in Austria? I am stil looking for the information I mentioned earlier.

Brno Arms is still in business in the Czech Republic as I have their new catalog. Their web page is as follows,
www.zbrojovkabrno.com

I also have the price sheet for their product line. I would post photos but I have not figured out how to do that on this site?

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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38935 - 10/10/05 01:15 AM

Here's their M98... Who imports this model into the US?



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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: new_guy]
      #38952 - 10/10/05 11:17 AM

new_guy

I am not sure who imports into the U.S., or if they eve have an importer for the U.S..

The rifle pictured above is one of three basic styles, the other two being a full stock and the Battue without set trigger. The last two have 520 mm barrels, what ever that computes to in inches?

I have their catalog and would post photos if I knew how!

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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38967 - 10/10/05 03:51 PM

As far as I know they are not imported into the USA.

Here is an example of the "new" Brno M98 rifle.
The rifles are basically old VZ 24 actions with modern barrels and stocks.









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ALF
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #38968 - 10/10/05 04:01 PM

As Promised some random notes on the history of Brno and CZ rifles:

A brief overview of the histories of the Brno and CZ arms factories and companies:

( Notes by Alf Smith )

Because of the impositions of language and the isolation of the Warsaw pact countries during the cold war the general American shooting public have a poor understanding of Czech arms manufacture, particularly how Brno and CZ came about.

In order to gain an understanding of the history of ZB
( Zbrojovka Brno) and CZ
( Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka) one would have to go back in history, look at each company separately and try and put each development to a timeline.

This short historical overview is by no means complete and it leaves out much to do with the manufacture of the machine guns and other arms of war. These companies also diversified into other forms of light industry and this has been omitted.


The common starting point in time for both companies starts with the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire at the conclusion of WW1 and the founding of the State of Czechoslovakia in 1918. It must be noted that historically the Czechs were very much a nation of gun makers.

Czechoslovakia was founded on the former lands of Moravia and Bohemia.

Under Hapsburg rule numerous small independent gun makers and independent arms and ammunition manufacturing operations existed within the boundaries of what was to become Czechoslovakia.

These companies were mostly owned and funded by banking groups and corporations out of Vienna and were taken up by the new Czechoslovakian State to form the core of the Czechoslovakian arms industry.


ZBROJOVKA BRNO ( Arms factory Brno)

The city of Brno in the former Moravia was home to an arms manufacturing plant controlled by Vienna.

In 1918 this plant would form the basis for the later Zbrojovka Brno or Arms factory Brno abbreviated as ZB.

This company with it’s numerous manufacturing plants and subsidiaries would later be the manufacturer of the sporting rifles we have come to know as the Models 21 H and 22 F , the later Galas rifle or ZG47 as well as the full range of Brno 22 small caliber rifles as designed by the Koucky brothers.

With the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the conclusion of WW 1 in 1918, the new Czechoslovakian state needed to rearm their fledgling army.

In order to achieve this, the State took over the existing armoury at Brno and floating a plan to refurbish German war surplus arms as well as a number of Steyer Mannlicher rifles.

Using the already existing arms factory at Brno, arms procured under the armistice agreements, were refurbished.

Some 100,000 Mauser rifles were procured and refurbished under this agreement.

A further 5,500 Mannlicher rifles were locally produced with expertise procured from the famous arms works of Styer in Austria.

The arms works at Brno formerly part of the Viennese arms manufacturing network was taken over by the new Czechoslovakian state and on March 1, 1919.

It was initially named as “Ceskoslovenska Statni Zbrojovka v. Brno” (Czechoslovakian State Arms Works at Brno).

Tooling and technical expertise was acquired from Mauser Oberndorf in Germany in 1920.

This was done in order to assemble the Mauser rifles for the military, 1921 saw this plan enacted.

Initially the idea was to buy parts sets for 42,000 Mauser rifles directly from Mauser Oberndorf and to assemble the rifles at Brno.

The history is not clear if this saw fruition but in addition to, a home grown Mauser production was started, which in turn ultimately lead to the production of the famous Vz 24 Brno-Mauser rifle.

This ability later played an important role in the hands of the Nazi occupation of the Sudatenland in 1938 , later the whole of Czechoslovakia in 1939 as the Nazi war machine, as we will explore, made good use of the Czech arms industry during the occupation.

In 1922 the company underwent change in name and structure to comply with constitutional legalities needed to do trade on the open, international arms market.

This also means partial privatization of the company with a limited stock holding as indicated in the name change.

The company is now named “Ceskoslovenska Zavodi na Vyrobu Zbrani v. Brno” abbreviated to CSZ (Czechoslovakian Works for military Arms Manufacture at Brno)

In 1923 CSZ is sold to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Praha. ( Czechoslovakian arms factory Prague) or CZP

With this a new company is formed and is named Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno A.S. or ZB and designated as a Pty Ltd.

The corporate ownership at this point is designated as follows:

Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka akc. Spol v Praze acquires 20% of VZB with the state owning 80%

This company was formed to buy out CSZ and it was controlled and owned in part through government shareholding (80%) and in part through the Arms works of Skoda in Prague (20%) as shown by the aforementioned.

This company abbreviated to the designation ZB a.s. was then ultimately to be home to a number of significant number sporting and military weapons.
It amassed through the years the expertise of arguably of the world’s greatest small arms developers and engineers.




The Vz 24 rifle:

Important to the understanding of sporting arms manufacture at Brno is the history as it pertains to the Vz 24 Brno-Mauser rifle. ( VZ = Vzor = Czech for “model” )

This rifle has it’s origins with the submission of a prototype Mauser M98 based rifle by Engineer Rudolf Jelen to the Czechoslovakian military in 1919. ( Pushka Mauser Jelena)

Rudolf was the younger brother to gunmaker Josef Jelen of Vejperty in Bohemia.

Rudolf was born in Bolehost, Bohemia on 27 January 1878 and died in Prague on 10 March 1938.

He was conscripted to the Czech army in 1887, retired from service in 1914 only to join the police. He is however still involved with the military until 1920 and qualifies as an engineer in 1921 having studied from 1918 to 1921.

He now joins the State arms works at Brno where he submits the prototype for what was to be the basis for the very famous Vz 24 rifle.

The forerunner to the Vz 24 is to be known as the Jelen Rifle or Puska Mauser-Jelena.

This rifle is basically a modified Mauser 98 in cal 7x57. The action dimensions differ from the standard M98 Mauser so does the nose cap of the rifle. The nose cap and bayonet bracket design is to be used later in the British SMLE. The Jelen rifle is made in 7.9x57 (150 rifles) and 7x57 (150 rifles)
These are all manufactured by CSZ


( This sharing of technical expertise between British gun makers and the Czechs is not strange as later during the Nazi occupation we see Czech gun makers fleeing their homeland and end up working for the British military arms industry.
Here the relationships see influence on machinegun manufacture such as the BREN but also influences sporting arms manufacture by BSA where we see common design copies in BSA based on the Brno ZKW rifle.)

Now followed the rifle model Vz 98 / 22 which is basically an improved Mexican Mauser but with the Jelen action.

They were built in 1923 – 1924 first by CSZ and then later by Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno a.s. from 1924 -1930.

The Vz 98 / 22 is in cal 7.92 X 57

Then followed the VZ 98 / 23

This was also offered in a short rifle and there were variants to the theme in the form of the model Vz 23 and Vz 23 A. The Vz 23 was built on cannibalized Mauser parts, whilst the 23A was built on new parts made in Czechoslovakia. So in effect the Vz 23 A was a wholly Brno built rifle.

The Vz 24 design though essentially a Mauser was like most of the Czech gun making industry products the collaborate work of some of the worlds most famous gun makers ( largely unknown the larger US derived gun loving community)

The VZ 24 came about through the amalgamation of the model 22 and 23 experience as the parts for the 22 and 23 were not fully interchangeable.

The VZ 24 prototypes were built in 1923 by CZS and the VZ 24 proper from 1924-1940 by Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno a.s.

Though the Vz 24 is designated as 24 production was actually in 1925

It is claimed that by 1939 some 762,000 Vz 24 rifles and 986,000 Vz 24 bayonets were made by ZB.

What is telling of the success of the VZ24 is the fact that the rifle found it’s way into the armouries of many foreign countries.

Ammunition manufacture:

In conjunction with the establishing of armouries the state needed to have ammunition for the military.

Two ammunition factories were located within the Czechoslovakian state borders at the time of the declaration of the Czechoslovakian state namely G. Roth & co. in Bratislavia, and Sellier & Bellot in Prague.

Both these two entities would, over time prove to be very important to the arms manufacturing industry within Czech lands. Also they became through amalgamation part of the ZB empire.

In 1928 ZB procures a major shareholding in the ammunition manufacturing company of G Roth based in Bratislavia.

The G. Roth company now undergoes a name and corporate ownership change to be named as Ceskoslovenska Manici a Kovodelne Zavodi a.s Bratislavia ( Czechoslovak Ammunition and Metal Works, joint stock company Bratislavia)

A full merger takes place in 1933 and the ammunition plant is moved to Povaske Bystrica.

The Povaske Bytrica plant, Zavod 2 also makes VZ42 rifles as well as bayonets

1937 sees the expansion of ZB with a new gun works at Brno, they also upgrade their old Mauser procured machines to new machines from Oberndorf.

A new plant at Zabrdovice was also started in 1937.

ZB also opens a factory in Vsetin for heavy machine guns ( Zavod3 )

ZB made the model 26 light machinegun from 1927 this was a Holek design from CZP (Zbrojovka Praga)

Nazi occupation 1939-1945:

The Nazi’s take control of the Sudatenland in 1938 and in 1939 take control over the whole of Czechoslovakia.

They immediately enroll all arms manufacture under Nazi control and with usual German precision bring arms manufacture in line with German doctrine.

ZB now becomes Waffenfabrik Brunn Aktiengesellshaft and German Waffenampt markings and proof rules are applied to weapons.

It is claimed that civilian sporting arms manufacture came to an end at this time, however specimens of sporting rifles are to be found dating from the occupation period complete with German proofs and Waffenampt markings.

Some of the factories and what the produced under Nazi control

Zavod 1 Brno and Zabrdovice - Infantry arms
Zavod 2 Povaske bystrica - Infantry arms
Zavod 3 Vsetin - Infantry arms
Zavod 7 Cejl - Rocket powered arms
Zavod 10 Optikotechna prerov - Scopes and rifle optics

It is then also noted that some prominent Czech arms engineers fled the occupation.

One such person was Engineer Otagar Galas the originator of the ZG47 rifle.

He found his way to the UK where during the war he was involved in British arms manufacture. Galas although not the principle designer of the Bren gun had much to do with Bren manufacture in England as well as the Oerlikon antiaircraft gun system.

At the conclusion of the Second World War much of Czechoslovakia was taken from Germany by the Russians whilst the Americans liberated Pilsn and Prague.

This then heralded the post war era for Czechoslovakia and the advent of a new dispensation under communism.

After the war:

With the conclusion of WW2 there is an amalgamation and distribution of German assets:

Under this ZB now procures or gains control over 14 plants included are:

1. The original assets of ZB a.s.
2. Sellier & Bellot
3. Zbrojovka Frans Janecek in Prague
4. The Vsetin plant ( rifle and machine gun manufacture)
5. The Zabrovice plant ( rifle and machine gun manufacture)

Shortly after Zbrojovka Frans Janecek is closed down.

Post WW 2 and communist rule:

1945:

At this point all companies local or foreign owned, are taken over by the Czechoslovakian state by virtue of nationalization decrees.

By this all industry is transferred to the auspices of the Department of industry and all manufacture becomes national or “peoples” enterprises or Narodni Podnik in keeping with the communist ideal.

This is reflected in the markings on rifles stating N.P. or Narodni Podnik

Zbrojovka Brno A.S. now becomes Narodni Podnik Zbrojovka Brno and under it is included some 14 other former plants and companies

Ceska Zbrojovka A.S. of Uhersky brod and Straconice remains separate from the ZB congloemerate.

The plant at Povaske Bystryca now becomes NARODNI PODNIK POVAZSKE STROJIRIN. This enterprise consists of 14 plants including Sellier & Bellot as well as the former ZBROJOVKA FRANTICEK JANECEK in Prague.

Under communism all arms manufacture is centralized under the Central directorship of the NPCZIS in Prague. The manufacturing co-operatives were managed but this arrangement but this was short lived as it proved costly and inefficient. (only to once again be dismantled by 1949)

In 1955 Czechoslovakia joins the Warsaw pact and all arms manufacture is brought under Soviet doctrine. This brings about huge increases in production but also significant problems in corporate control.


CESKA ZBROJOVKA (CZ)

The company origins of CZ appears to be much in line with that of ZB in terms of the historical events that surrounded the founding of the State of Czechoslovakia in 1918.

CZ was born out of various company mergers in 1922.

The original founding company was Jihoceska Zbrojovka ssro. (South Bohemian Arms Factory pty ltd ) founded in 1919 in Pilsn.

Jihoceska Zbrojovka a.s acquires Hubertus in 1922 and the company name changes to Ceska Zbrojovka Straconice abbreviated CZ. ( Czechoslovakian arms factory Straconice) with their principle factory in Straconice.

The original plant at Straconice was started by architect Karel Bubla with technical expertise from the Skoda Works of Pilsn in 1919.

Engineer Alois Tomiska of Skoda in Pilsn moves to Straconice to build pistols and production was started in 1921.

This arms works would later due to solvency problems need to diversify.

With the diversification the Straconice plant now builds machine tools and bicycles whilst small arms manufacture is moved to a new plant in the city of Uhersky Brod in 1937.

Under a strategic master plan for arms manufacture in the New State ZB cedes pistol manufacture to CZ in 1923. 1924 sees Franticek Miska producing the VZ 24 pistol a derivative of the original VZ 22 of Josef Nickl.

At this time we also see the founding of another gun works in Prague (1819) Praga Zbrojovka by A Novotny. They build the Praga pistol, a 1910 Browning copy, they get a Government contract in July 1920 for 5000 pistols to be delivered by December 1920


The famous Vaclav Holek one of the Holek brothers is affiliated to this factory

Nazi occupation 1939-1945:

The following factories and what they produced during the war:

ZB: - Waffenfabrik Brunn
Under German occupation the factory still remains as an independent company but the German occupiers rename the company.

Zavod 1 Brno- Zabrovice - Infantry arms
Zavod 2 Povaska Bystrica - Infantry arms
Zavod 3 Vsetin- Infantry arms
Zavod 7 Cejl - Rocket powered arms
Zavod 10 Optikotechna prerov - Scopes and rifle optics

CZ ( Straconice and Udersky brod)

Infantry automatic weapons
Aircraft automatic weapons
Infantry cannons

Zbrojovka Velinksy and Zbrojovka Kyser

Hand grenades

Zbrojovka Frans Janecek:

Anti tank guns
Bomb racks
Pumps
Engines

Zbrojovka Franz Dusek:

Pistols


After the war 1946:

Amalgamation and distribution of German assets:

ZB procures 14 plants in all included are:

1. The Original assets of Zbrojovka Brno a.s.
2. Sellier & Bellot
3. Zbrojovka Frans Janecek of Prague
4. Zavod 3 in Vsetin ( rifle and machine guns)
5. Zavod 1 Zabrovice ( rifle and machine guns)

Zbrojovka Frans Janecek is shut down for a short while only to be reopened later on.


Zavod 2 in Posvaka Bystrica becomes independent and becomes Povsake Strojirny, they made Czech ammo.

1945:

At this point all companies local or foreign owned are taken over by the Czechoslovakian state by virtue of nationalization decrees.

By this all industry is transferred to the auspices of the Department of Industry and all manufacture in accordance with the dictates of communism became “National enterprises” or Narodni Podnik.

A restructuring of the arms factories take place and this is reflected in the markings found on rifles of this period.

Zbrojovka Brno a.s. now becomes Narodni Podnik Zbrojovka Brno and under it is included some 14 other former plants and companies.

Ceska Zbrojovka a.s Uhersky Brod and Straconice remained as separate corporate entities from the Zbrojovka Brno conglomerate although they were all controlled by a central directorate.

In practice this proved to be a poor business model as problems arose with production and marketing of the arms products on an international basis. With time this model was fazed out and control reverted back to the individual factories.

In order to comply with international trading code some of the State control was relinquished and the companies traded as limited shareholding operations. Later marketing was undertaken by trade companies such a Agrocet which marketed the Czech arms products on the international market.



The Rules of Proof:

The premise of the rule of proof is that all small arms have to be proved safe by firing a test load with a charge producing higher (usually 30 to 50%) pressures than the industry standard. This then acts as a safeguard against faulty weapons, thereby protecting the user.

The Czech arms industry though not a signatory to the Brussels Convention on Proof applied rules of proof to all small arms manufactured.

Military proof:

The military Proof and Acceptance in the new State of Czechoslovakia was undertaken by the Arms Technology Authority “Zbrojne Technicke vrady” (ZTU).

This arrangement was brought about in 1922.

ZTU’s were designated by number, assigned to the various arms manufacturing plants in Czechoslovakia.

For example:

ZTU 3 at Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno
ZTU 4 at Povaska Bystrica
ZTU 5 at Sellier & Bellot
ZTU 7 at Ceska Zbrojovka Straconice
ZTU 8 at Zbrojovka Janecek
ZTU 9 at Vsetin

Civilian Proof and Acceptance:

Civilian Proof and Acceptance was undertaken at two locations:

The Government Arms and Ammunition testing Authority in Prague and the Proof house at Vejprty.

The Vejperty Proof house and Authority was closed down in 1945 with the liquidation of the Vejperty Arms Works under the post war government “take over” of arms manufacturing in Czechoslovakia.

The rules of proof used under Hapsburg rule were adopted under the Proof law of 1891 (June 23, 1891) enacted on January 1, 1892.

These rules and marks were in use at the time of the proclamation of the State of Czechoslovakia in 1918.

The Czech proof law (law 207 of 1931) December 17,1931 with supplementary regulations of December 22, 1931 was enacted on January 1, 1932.

This law called for obligatory proof of all small arms manufactured within the borders of Czechoslovakia.

German occupation, 1939 to 1945 brought about changes in Proof law as all arms manufactured under German occupation were placed under German acceptance rules. We see examples of this in rare occupation sporting rifles bearing the same military German Waffenampt codes as found in Mauser military rifles.

After 1945 the 1931 Czech law was once again used until 1962 when a new and current used law was enacted. (May 31,1962)






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Boomer
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #38972 - 10/10/05 08:32 PM

MauserRifle -

I'm pretty sure the fellow I bought the rifle from bought it new, so no it was not an Alaskan rifle. I did shoot the rifle a few times before he cut the original barrel down, in fact we had argued at length on the subject as he prefers barrels which stretch out to the horizon, but I think it hung up on him when he needed it badly, and that scared him enough to come around. It's just too bad the fellow who did that original cutting spoiled the front sight, but it worked for me. I wanted a 602 badly and as a result of the poor gunsmithing job I was able to trade a Whitworth .458 for it.

Now my pal has another 602 in .375 - again with the long barrel and a muzzle brake (yuk), which he absolutely refuses to cut. It is a nice looking rifle with a monte-carlo stock and the Ziess scope arrangement as seen in the pics from Alf. My pal used this rifle last year to kill a bear which was playing tether ball with one of his dogs, then tried to push in the front door of his house.

I've simply found that short barrel rifles are handier for my life style which includes walking miles of willow infested polar bear habitat, jumping in and out of jeeps and helicopters, and occasionally hunting in thick cover. If I can find another 602 action I'd sure like to build a .460 G&A.

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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #39009 - 11/10/05 08:23 AM

ALF

I wish to thank you not only for myself, but everyone else that has an interest in Brno and CZ arms. That is indeed a very concise and enlighting report of the Czech Arms Industry.

May I ask where you found and how you came about all this information?

Again, Thank You



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MauserRifle
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: Boomer]
      #39010 - 11/10/05 08:28 AM

Boomer

Are you looking for just an action, or a complete rifle? I own several Brno 602's. Send me a PM and let me know what you are interested in purchasing.



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AdamTayler
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #39025 - 11/10/05 01:18 PM

James

The distributor in Canada is Mr. Dave Campbell of London Arms Ltd., Unit #9, 90 Claireport Crescent, Rexdale, Ontario, 416-675-1322. I e-mailed Brno and it took 2-3 weeks for a response.
I did not write down the site that I found the info concerning the 404J, and in my searches I have not come up with it again but I'm sure it is still out there.

Adam

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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #39028 - 11/10/05 02:25 PM

Adam

I appreciate the information for the Brno distributor in Canada. As I remember, it took about two weeks or so for my catalog to get here from Czechoslovakia and it was sent special delivery. It seems like it takes quite a long time to get anything from overseas for some reason.

If you need prices on any of their products, let me know as I have their price sheet.

James

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ALF
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Reged: 21/11/03
Posts: 51
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #39032 - 11/10/05 03:24 PM

I have been collecting Brno rifles and stuff for nearly 30 years now and have been looking for info where ever I can find it.

Sadly both Brno and CZ have little to offer as most of the historical data and stuff was archived by the commies. Language is a huge problem as well.

What I'm looking to do is some day soon is to travel to the Czech Republic and personally seek out information such as photographs of the famous gun makers.

I would dearly love to see and procure copies of the original factory drawings of the various rifles.

There is way more than just the ZKK's and the ZG's. The Holek over and under shotguns and rifles coded as ZH and then the sidelock side by side shotguns of Pistecky coded as ZP of which there are 29 variants.


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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: ALF]
      #39046 - 12/10/05 04:14 AM

ALF

I have not been collecting Brno's for as long as you, only the last few years for me, but I also have a deep interest in the rifles.

In my personal opinion, they are one of the finest production Mausers ever made, if not the finest. IMO, I would go so far as to say they are the finest production rifles ever produced for the money!

My wife and I are also planning to go to Czechoslovakia as my Grandmother is from there and my Grandfather is from Austria, these grand parents are on my Mother's side. I wish to obtain my citizenship for these countries as well as for Italy as both of my Grandparents on my Fathers side are from Italy.

Again I wish to thank you for all the information you have provided. I have made copies of everything for future reference.



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #39049 - 12/10/05 05:41 AM

Wholesalesports.com & Russellsports.com in Calgary both sell BRNO's and the newer CZ's using both banners in the advertizement.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #39053 - 12/10/05 06:20 AM

Daryl_S

Thanks for the information. Do you happen to have the web page for these dealers, if they have one?

I have a catalog from the factory and know who the importer is for Canada, but would also like info. on any dealers.

Thanks



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: MauserRifle]
      #39066 - 12/10/05 11:32 AM

www.wholesalesports.com and www.russellsports.com fro current BRNO dealers in Western Canada. There may be some in the lower mainland of B.C., but the ones posted are the best buys except the m600 7X57 classic stocked and m601 .308 motecarlo locally at $495 and $500. I don't believe they're available in the Alberta's shops I noted above. The older BRNO's are brand new. I bought one in 7X57 last year and it holds less than an inch with about 6 different loads I've tried. Everything so far, including Barnes Triple Shocks and 2 different factory loads prints less than an inch.
; I've shot 175 Hornady's, 140 Accubonds, 145gr. Speer and 120gr. Nosler BT's.- all print small groups with the Barnes TS giving 3-shot 1/4" groups.
: I-too appreciate the M600 BRNO as well as my older (now sold) 602 in .358NM and spare 602 barrel in .375H&H.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 602 [Re: DarylS]
      #39070 - 12/10/05 12:10 PM

Daryl_S

Thank you for the web address. I have sent you a PM.


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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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