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buckstix
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Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun
#352891 - 30/04/21 08:18 AM

Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun.

Not sure if this is the correct forum for this, but here goes ...

I recently acquired another Cape Gun. This makes number 6 in my collection. Although I just purchased it from a private party, I found it was listed for sale in the Rock Island Auction back in September of 2010. The only info I have is what was shown in that listing. (see pic) There are no caliber marks or proof marks and no serial number or assembly numbers. The only markings are on the barrels and both locks. I'd be interested to know the place and date of manufacture if possible.

A modern 450 bpe case is too large and will not fit into the chamber - it only goes in approx. 1 inch. Both the rifle and the shotgun chambers and bores are "mirror-bright" from muzzle to breech. It looks to be seldom fired, if at all.

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#352894 - 30/04/21 09:12 AM

Nice - quite an early gun by the fences, with a rimmed case in the rifle chamber, quite likely the 11mm Mauser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Lj51cgtVs

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#352897 - 30/04/21 09:39 AM

Quote:

Nice - quite an early gun by the fences, with a rimmed case in the rifle chamber, quite likely the 11mm Mauser.

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply.
Its actually a lot bigger than the 11mm Mauser cartridge, but don't know what it is.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#352906 - 30/04/21 02:07 PM

in such a hunting rifle from Wien in this time frame it would be a 450 BPE 3 1/4"

short on time now, please compare the measurments http://old.municion.org/450Ne/450Ne.htm

looking on your chamber cast it seems the german version, modern nitro express brass will not fit
more about it in the evening

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
#352937 - 01/05/21 01:38 AM

Weird base on the ctg. plus no shoulder, just straight taper.
I would measure the bore diameter as well.
The early 1871 Mausers, up to and including 1876 version, have a groove diameter of .457/8 and a bore of .437".
The chamber would not allow a bullet larger than .446" dia. being seated in the case. The deep grooves
were originally thought needed for collecting fouling - or, the original paper patched bullets were thought
to expand to fit the oversized grooves. This worked, however in the 1884 model 71, the groove diameter was reduced to .446".

The .490" neck would admit a .458" bullet and having 15" neck wall with 1/2 thou each side for expansion - or just use a .4595" bullet
for a press fit in a fired case.

AHH - just noticed - 3 1/4" case length - cool!
A .45 3 1/4" case should work, with or without a brass ring/collar in front of the rim to take up the extra slop.

The rate of twist will dictate what bullet weight is usable or required.
The 11mm Mauser carbine I had, had a 20" twist, seems to me, however all the ammo was loaded with a 370gr. bullet.

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lancaster
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#352943 - 01/05/21 05:28 AM

well, don't find my 1927 georg roth catalog just now
there it is, iirc, the 11,6x82R 450

this is the german-austrian version of the 450 3 1/4 BPE

the case follow the measurments of the older 450 BPE with coiled case http://old.municion.org/450/450Boxer.htm

there you see it the conical base with a long cylindrical body follow this old cartridge

in the 1908 RWS catalog this kind of express cases are called german design

they offer also the express cases "after Eley-London" which have the measurments you find on modern brass.

I fear you need a special sizing die

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
#352948 - 01/05/21 07:09 AM

Certainly have a challenge ahead with this one Bucksticks!
Looks like Lancaster is on the money here
I reckon you'll have it going soon enough

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: 93x64mm]
#352954 - 01/05/21 08:07 AM

Appears you might be able to use .450 Nitro Express brass - or sleeved(at the base) .45 3 1/4" RCBS or Bell if it can be found.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#352970 - 01/05/21 10:20 PM

Quote:

in such a hunting rifle from Wien in this time frame it would be a 450 BPE 3 1/4"
short on time now, please compare the measurments http://old.municion.org/450Ne/450Ne.htm
looking on your chamber cast it seems the German version, modern nitro express brass will not fit
more about it in the evening

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, modern 450 bpe brass is slightly larger, but only by a few thousands. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Quote:

Weird base on the ctg. plus no shoulder, just straight taper.
I would measure the bore diameter as well. ... A .45 3 1/4" case should work, with or without a brass ring/collar in front of the rim to take up the extra slop.

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply.
I have some 45-120 cases, but rather than altering those, I have several hundred 500 bpe cases that I can alter instead.

Quote:

well, don't find my 1927 georg roth catalog just now
there it is, iirc, the 11,6x82R 450
this is the german-austrian version of the 450 3 1/4 BPE
the case follow the measurments of the older 450 BPE with coiled case http://old.municion.org/450/450Boxer.htm

there you see it the conical base with a long cylindrical body follow this old cartridge
I fear you need a special sizing die

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.
So, the caliber would be 11.6x82R ? - or would it be 11.5x82.5R ? - It seems strange that there are no caliber markings on the gun.

Quote:

Certainly have a challenge ahead with this one Bucksticks!
Looks like Lancaster is on the money here.
I reckon you'll have it going soon enough

Hello 93x64mm
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, lancaster has it pegged. And you are correct, I'll have it shooting by next week. I shoot all my old collectables, especially those from Austria, because that's where I was born.

Quote:

Appears you might be able to use .450 Nitro Express brass - or sleeved(at the base) .45 3 1/4" RCBS or Bell if it can be found.

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I plan on altering and using 450 bpe brass because I have a lot of it.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#352974 - 02/05/21 04:22 AM

yes, use common 450 3,25" NE or BPE brass, its the same case
don't let you confuse by different names, this is only of historical interest

the cartridge is the 11,6x82R 450BPE

if you have a 45 sharps die it could be maybe used to size the brass

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
#353003 - 03/05/21 01:40 AM

Quote:

yes, use common 450 3,25" NE or BPE brass, its the same case
don't let you confuse by different names, this is only of historical interest
the cartridge is the 11,6x82R 450BPE if you have a 45 sharps die it could be maybe used to size the brass

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.

As I've done with most of my collectables, Ive adapted a case for this one also.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353010 - 03/05/21 02:57 AM

The "trouble" with a .45 3 1/4" Sharps die, is it will attempt to swage the larger BPE base.
A shorter .45 FL die is quite usable for "neck sizing" the .450 BPE case, though, simply by adjusting the die properly in the press.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#353024 - 03/05/21 08:25 AM

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply. I will be shooting it this upcoming week.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353026 - 03/05/21 09:00 AM

:Looking forward to the results, buckstix.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#353069 - 04/05/21 08:33 PM

Quote:

:Looking forward to the results, buckstix.

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply.

Because the rifle caliber on this Cape Gun is obsolete, and because brass for it is totally non-existent, and because custom loading dies are expensive, and because it would take almost 2 years to get them, and because I shoot "all" of my collectables, well .... I came up with a very simple solution. I rented a 450 bpe reamer for $35, and I hand reamed the 11.6x82R chamber. It took less than 30 minutes because all the reamer did was to remove the sweeping taper in the middle of the chamber. That amounted to only about .010 of an inch. Now the rifle chamber on this Cape Gun is a standard 450 bpe.
The reamer also cut the rim diameter rim thickness to standard dimensions. I already have 2 double rifles, and a single-shot in 450 bpe caliber, and I have reloading dies, and brass, and bullets for them. So ....tomorrow I go to the range for shooting.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353099 - 05/05/21 01:28 PM

back from the range .... and now ..... Here's a test target ... I couldn't have done this without the "chamber improvement" ... see below ...

.

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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353100 - 05/05/21 04:29 PM

Yahoo!
Boy she can really shoot Buckstix!

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: 93x64mm]
#353116 - 06/05/21 02:36 AM

Excellent gun(obviously), excellent target and good thinking on your part.
It just cannot get much better than that.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#353242 - 09/05/21 12:10 PM

Quote:

Yahoo!
Boy she can really shoot Buckstix!

Hello 93x64mm,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I'm ready to take it hunting.

Quote:

Excellent gun(obviously), excellent target and good thinking on your part.
It just cannot get much better than that.

Hello Daryl_S,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, now I have plenty of ammo.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353498 - 17/05/21 09:28 AM

Hello all,

I tired another load today. I loaded some 45 cal Hornady 325g Flex Tip Bullets. I got great results.

Velocities are near original 1800s velocity. A fun thump-er at 29 ft/lbs recoil.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353499 - 17/05/21 09:47 AM

Is that IMR or Hodgdon's powder, buckstix?
I just noticed in loading the .45/70 Lever guns with 350gr., there is quite a difference between them in both starting and maximum loads.
I see Hodgdon lists 49.0gr. H4895 in the .450 3 1/4" Modern Sharps chambering at 1,903fps. They did not list IMR4198 in this ctg. length.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#353505 - 17/05/21 01:42 PM

That'll do!

Looks like a fun gun.
Versatile too.

When do you get started on the single projectile load for the smooth bore barrel?
Get it set up to put the balls on the bullet group.
Too much fun!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: tinker]
#353508 - 17/05/21 02:11 PM

Oh yeah.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: tinker]
#353510 - 17/05/21 02:35 PM

Quote:

Is that IMR or Hodgdon's powder, buckstix?
I just noticed in loading the .45/70 Lever guns with 350gr., there is quite a difference between them in both starting and maximum loads.
I see Hodgdon lists 49.0gr. H4895 in the .450 3 1/4" Modern Sharps chambering at 1,903fps. They did not list IMR4198 in this ctg. length.

Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.

When I record powders without a prefix letter, its IMR. I only list "H" when its a Hodgdon powder.
Similar loadings with IMR 4198 are listed in the Graeme Wright book, "Shooting the British Double Rifle" albeit 52 grains. I always stay conservative so I loaded only 50 grains.

Quote:

That'll do!
Looks like a fun gun.
Versatile too.
When do you get started on the single projectile load for the smooth bore barrel?
Get it set up to put the balls on the bullet group.
Too much fun!

Hello tinker,
Thanks for the reply.

Maybe the next outing to the range.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Re: Help w info about Franz Poriska, Wein - 16ga x 11mm Cape Gun [Re: buckstix]
#353530 - 18/05/21 06:37 AM

Great grouping at 10 yards mate, fantastic group with modern projectiles!
Certainly brought new life into this old girl......she can really shoot too!

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