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themauserkid
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343769 - 29/07/20 03:02 AM

Hey fellas, there’s a slight misunderstanding going on here. The above .270 rifle is not an Oberndorf proper, that’s a prewar JP Sauer small ring with the typical trigger guard as seen on these. It’s also not a shotgun style per se, simply an enlarged forging of the typical Oberndorf guard, there is no tang extending past the rear action screw or anything on these. Also note the simple straight line border engraved and matted top of receiver, this is standard on a Sauer. Sauer’s styling on Mauser action rifles was basically unchanged on their “normal” production models from at least 1897 until the war. The earliest I’ve seen was a three digit serial on a transitional 1897 action, it’s pre 1898 of course but has many of the features already. I believe I actually saw that rifle on this forum somewhere.

I largely collect Sauer so if anyone would like pictures of this trigger guard or any other details let me know as I have some on hand. This trigger guard was pretty much standard at Sauer until roughly the early 1930’s it appears, after which the internal bow release lever and converted “standard” Mauser 98 pattern trigger guards show up on them. This particular pattern I do not have yet but am on the hunt for! The one I have not seen and assume will not, is the typical Oberndorf pattern of guard as used on most of their models. Neat project by the way!

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343772 - 29/07/20 03:51 AM

Quote:


Thanks for the links Rothhammer. Interestingly that first one with the full slab sides also has a shotgun trigger bow... although it’s not a very original looking rifle so maybe that bits changed. I do like the stock though. In fact I think I like slab sides, just trying to decide if I like them enough to deviate from my initial desire of creating as close to an original as I realistically can in terms of style - my action is marked 1937



I was going a whole different way with this, but it appears that the 'full slab sides' are almost exclusively (?) seen on 'Haenel Mannlichers' such as their sporting version of Gewehr 88 (which they were producing under contract) and its descendants, the Haenel Modell 1900 and 1909. Link: Haenel
Searches of 'Haenel Mauser' end up with Gewehr 88 models in Mauser chamberings and I find very few 'slab sided' mousies.



Even so, it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles. Perhaps someone could have harbored a soft spot in their heart for a 'Mannlicher Haenel' they had previously owned and now (1937) wanted to have a stalking rifle of that style yet preferred the Mauser 98 action or available chamberings? Not 'Mauser original', but 'period aftermarket correct'?

Here is a page from the ol' '39 Stoeger offering stutzen stocks to spiff up WW1 surplus military rifles for do it yourselfers in the U.S., or one could send the rifle to Stoeger and have them do the conversion:



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themauserkid
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343774 - 29/07/20 05:02 AM

They are standard at Sauer too, all of mine have it and every example I’ve seen has as well. It’s very popular and common in Suhl, many makers there had it as their standard stock pattern, Simson, Kettner etc. The example above is without a doubt Sauer. Haenel didn’t make many Mausers but I’ve seen 2 or 3 examples and they too have the typical stock pattern of the time.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=445617

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Huvius
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343781 - 29/07/20 07:42 AM

Quote:

...it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles.



Absolutely!
Even Westley Richards offered Mauser '98s with slab sided stocking.
Very much a German, or even broader European style but even the English weren't averse to satisfying a customer request.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Huvius]
      #343809 - 29/07/20 07:53 PM

Sometimes I really like the internet... :


Westley Richards Mauser, properly tarted up for Indian royalty: 425 WR Mauser




From Sauer: Sauer Mauser



From Kettner: Kettner Mauser



From Eckoldt: Eckoldt Mauser


Note the turned down 'butterknife' bolt handle and Prince of Wales grip.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #343811 - 29/07/20 08:45 PM

Quote:

Hey fellas, there’s a slight misunderstanding going on here. The above .270 rifle is not an Oberndorf proper, that’s a prewar JP Sauer small ring with the typical trigger guard as seen on these.



Apologies if that was me.

I'm really not at all well versed on Mauser variants.



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themauserkid
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343816 - 29/07/20 11:23 PM

No problem at all sir, there’s always something to learn, that’s what makes these old guns so interesting. I find myself quite lost on topics outside of Mauser very quickly!

Now that Kettner you dug up.. I really like that! I’m a sucker for a Mauser Stützen, I have a Sauer very similar to it.

I’m really curious to see what direction the OP decides to go, it would be very hard for me to nail one down, I have at least a dozen Mausers ideas I’d have to sort though!

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343878 - 31/07/20 07:34 AM

Quote:

It’s also not a shotgun style per se, simply an enlarged forging of the typical Oberndorf guard, there is no tang extending past the rear action screw or anything on these...

I largely collect Sauer so if anyone would like pictures of this trigger guard or any other details let me know as I have some on hand. This trigger guard was pretty much standard at Sauer until roughly the early 1930’s it appears, after which the internal bow release lever and converted “standard” Mauser 98 pattern trigger guards show up on them. This particular pattern I do not have yet but am on the hunt for! The one I have not seen and assume will not, is the typical Oberndorf pattern of guard as used on most of their models. Neat project by the way!

thanks for the info - I’m glad you corrected me. Although a i was writing it I had a feeling I wasn’t right in saying it’s a shotgun guard, what I should have said was definitely not regular oberndorf one. Very nice all the same. I do plan on grafting a military bow on and co contouring it like a DST oberndord bow though - you wouldn’t have any dimensions to help me would you?

Quote:


it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles. Perhaps someone could have harbored a soft spot in their heart for a 'Mannlicher Haenel' they had previously owned and now (1937) wanted to have a stalking rifle of that style yet preferred the Mauser 98 action or available chamberings? Not 'Mauser original', but 'period aftermarket correct'?


I like your thinking! Yes it’s a very good point - and not entirely unrealistic too. My main reason for wanting to build a copy is that I love the look of them, I’m never going to be trying to pass it off as an original so might as well put what I like on it anyway. Although I making it a Type B original As I can gives me bit of a tickle too...

A final bit of info I’m chasing for the barrel though - muzzle diameter. Spud303’s MD is 0.59”, but it’s a 24”. Continuing that taper with a 28” barrel gives a MD of 0.55”, a while mm less and something that’s more like a featherweight diameter. Should I adjust the taper so it’s 0.59” at the 28” muzzle? What would a 28” oberndorf have had?

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #343879 - 31/07/20 08:00 AM

Quote:



I’m really curious to see what direction the OP decides to go, it would be very hard for me to nail one down, I have at least a dozen Mausers ideas I’d have to sort though!

To be honest I am having problems deciding on quite a few details that could go either way. It took me a while to work exactly what I liked about classic sporters. I thought I had it fully nailed on a 100% Type B, then Cameron Hatcher made me aware of Plezier Mausers and that threw me a bit and gave me the side panel bug... I’ll try and do a bit of a progress report early next week I think

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343880 - 31/07/20 08:04 AM

Quote:

Sometimes I really like the internet... :

Westley Richards Mauser, properly tarted up for Indian royalty:
From Sauer:

From Kettner:

From Eckoldt:
Note the turned down 'butterknife' bolt handle and Prince of Wales grip.



Those last three are beautiful, and shows the classic panels I like.

I’m sure some people like them, but these westley Richards aren’t so much to my taste - way Over stated And the lines just don’t work IMO

Edited by Wedgetail (31/07/20 08:36 AM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343891 - 31/07/20 01:30 PM

Quote:


I’m sure some people like them, but these westley Richards aren’t so much to my taste - way Over stated And the lines just don’t work IMO



That particular WR is very heavily embellished, of course, and has the extended magazine for the '.425 Bore' cartridge. I included it as an example of WR with 'slab sided' stock.

Some of their other offerings are quite lovely. They did put out some handsome adverts:





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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343984 - 03/08/20 06:46 PM

Sure - they certainly did, and I know you were only using it as an example of other side panels! It just struck a chord with with me not liking overstated gun art (or any art for that matter)...

Ok bit of a progress report. I’ve now got a couple of receivers to choose from, one gas less pitting than the other but still not 100%. I got it first, found the LH race was bent in a little causing the bolt to bind. I exchanged it for a straight one (pictured) but it has more pitting. I decided I didn’t like the pitting so the seller sent the other one back. A couple of minutes with the press and the race is now perfect and functions a1.







I was originally planning on using the vz24 bolt I had but decided I liked the low scope handle with checkered bottom and thought it would be a shame to break up a good action anyway. So I got another unmatched bolt from Harry’s Mausers. I told him I was building a custom and he sent me a virgin bolt - about the chrispest least molested bolt I’ve seen out side of a brand new rifle! Not sure whether to fit a Talley bolt handle or make one from bar stock. I’ve heard mixed reviews about Talley handles authenticity of shape? If I find myself having heaps of time I’ll make it but will need to hassle someone for handle dimensions







I lucked out on a new DST inletted into a bottom metal with lever floor plate release for cheap. I’ll need to hinge the floor plate and make the kicker - I’ve got a spare trigger and tracing of a kicker. I’ll have to graft a military trigger bow on and recontour. Unless someone has a solid bow’d DST’d bottom metal they want to swap with a shotgun style one?





Spud303 is very kindly sending me an original tangent sight. I’ve discovered Argentines have the same sight sleeve ID (~0.76”) so am hoping to form one into a base to suit (has this been done before? Any other ideas - Spanish Mauser maybe?). Pics when it arrives...

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344033 - 04/08/20 07:17 PM

So I’m having dark thoughts... what are people’s views on scrubbing? I’m considering scrubbing the more pitted receiver. There are three reasons I’m thinking about.

1- the pitting, it’s not very deep, and mostly below the wood line but is there none the less. I’d prefer it if it were clean.
2- the nazi proofs. I don’t like nazis, and their presence (all four of them) makes me marginally uncomfortable. I thought I was ok with it but I’m still on the fence.
3- I’ve always like the idea of an action made for sporting use rather than a recycled military one. Hence the desire to copy a Type B. Although that’s exactly what’s happening here, I can at least pretend to myself this isn’t the case... exactly like what BRNO did with their Bo98 sporters, and Voere. I also have no ties to anyone or anything Portuguese.

I’m not worried about strength, nothings that deep. I feel guilty removing the nice crest, but in reality it’s a pitted bare receiver - not exactly collector value. Or I just use the other (nicer) one... thoughts?

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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93x64mm
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344039 - 04/08/20 10:17 PM

Wedgie,
I've heard of micro-welding to repair pits etc - not sure who does it here, but it may be an option for you!
As to the crest, perhaps getting it engraved to reinstate back to original?

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Marrakai
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: 93x64mm]
      #344047 - 05/08/20 09:15 AM

Wedgie:
I had a stunning Orion .500 Jeffery in my gunsafe for a short while, made on a Portuguese Mauser by Rassie Erasmus in South Africa in the '70s I believe. It was notable for the distinctive Blenheim sights, and the fact that the maker had the good sense to leave the perfectly-struck Portuguese crest and date intact, along with the marvelous row of large waffen-ampts down the left-hand side.
So often the history of the original action is ground away; certainly the case on most all vintage British sporters.
Also my .416 Taylor was built by Vic Pedersen in the late '80s on a totally cleaned-up Brno VZ-24 action, radius-ground receiver ring and left side of action filed clean of all maker's marks. It looks pretty darn good too!

Your project, your choice!

...although I personally can't equate any evils perpetrated by a bygone government with the historical hardware they left behind. We can't change history, nor can we deny it.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Marrakai]
      #344056 - 05/08/20 02:55 PM

Quote:


...although I personally can't equate any evils perpetrated by a bygone government with the historical hardware they left behind. We can't change history, nor can we deny it.



I agree on an intellectual level and would not be one to remove, enhance, or alter any original markings on an historic artifact.

I have, however, passed on a half decent Luger at a half decent price because of the Nazi Eagle proofs. To some they add value, but not to me.

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #344071 - 06/08/20 08:45 PM

Good points Marrakai, and I a still a bit on the fence. I don’t think I’ll worry about filling the pits - I can always use the cleaner receiver where the pits are minimal, below the wood line and wood stone off relatively easily...
Quote:


I have, however, passed on a half decent Luger at a half decent price because of the Nazi Eagle proofs. To some they add value, but not to me.

yes that’s it exactly - that’s how I feel. It’s more a subconscious thing that I can’t rationalise. I think I might try scrubbing the more pitted one up, see how it goes then if I don’t like it/it’s not working out I’ll use the better one...

I’m the meantime, I received this yesterday. I now have a piece of genuine Type B to add to the build. Thank you very much spud303!







--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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themauserkid
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344074 - 07/08/20 12:05 AM

I missed your question on trigger guard bow dimensions. I don’t have anymore Oberndorf rifles proper, mostly rifles out of Thüringia so most are modified somehow from the original Oberndorf profile. I can dimension the one in this thread which is probably the closest: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=340523&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
It has been narrowed at the top of the bow however so maybe only some dimensions would be truly helpful.

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #344119 - 08/08/20 07:08 AM

Hmm my reply to you mauserkid that I put up yesterday doesn’t seem to have logged... anyway, I was trying to say thanks a lot that would be excellent! That trigger guard is exactly the shape I’m after. I’ve been unsure if I need to extend it to fit the DSTs

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344296 - 13/08/20 07:21 AM


Ok on to front sights. So the original type B sight was generally a long (or pre war, very long) ramp with knurling (?). They had a horizontal dovetail for the bead. Recknagel offer a few ramps, all there dovetail ones have smooth curved backs. I want dovetailed partly for originality but also because I need windage adjustment (rear has none). Are there any other options for ramps?

The other route is a banded front sight. Jon speed says type As had a unique banded sight, but also includes a drawing of an identical looking (to me) one that he suggests was general. Can anyone expand on this? I’ve never seen a photo of a type B with a banded front. Prechtl makes a nice type A repro, and I like the idea of a banded due to the strength (although the force required to unseat a soldered ramp would be alarming...). But it’s also AU$200 shipped - I’ve hit a wall with funding for this at the moment so would have to wait on that for a while. All Recknagel banded ramps are slotted not dovetailed.

Last option is to Make one from flat bar. Cutting the dovetail would be easy enough (have done barrels) but barrel profile concave would be harder - maybe a rats tail or welding on a section of tube with the correct ID. Could even weld on part of a file on the back for knurling.






--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

Edited by Wedgetail (13/08/20 07:23 AM)

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Marrakai
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344298 - 13/08/20 10:15 AM

Quote:

...or welding on a section of tube with the correct ID


Wedgie:
A significant part of the appeal of a commercial Oberndorf Mauser is the barrel taper, as noted in your initial posts. Without it, you lose the fabulous lines that define these classic rifles.

A 7mm or 8mm barrel will likely taper from 19 or 20 mm where the taper starts in front of the chamber, down to 14-and-a-bit mm at the muzzle. Front sight ramps consequently need a little bit of fiddling to fit properly.

And IMHO you won't want a mill-bastard front sight ramp! Pretty simple to just file-cut the ramp for ribbing or checkering.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Marrakai]
      #344322 - 14/08/20 06:55 AM

Quote:


A 7mm or 8mm barrel will likely taper from 19 or 20 mm where the taper starts in front of the chamber, down to 14-and-a-bit mm at the muzzle. Front sight ramps consequently need a little bit of fiddling to fit properly.

And IMHO you won't want a mill-bastard front sight ramp! Pretty simple to just file-cut the ramp for ribbing or checkering.

Yes I’m sure you’re right - I’ve just been experimenting and my new Sykes pickavant thread file will cut down to 34lpi which Looks plenty fine enough, I think it will come up well. So my only hurdle is cutting the concave for the barrel.

And yes the barrel tapers from 19.2 to 14.99mm at the muzzle (as per spud303s)

--------------------
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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344329 - 14/08/20 07:03 PM

Did a bit of experimenting with the thread file - I think it’ll Work nicely.



--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344330 - 14/08/20 08:05 PM

I’m leaning more towards the scrubbed receiver. I’ll keep the other less pitted one for a future project I think. Had some luck taking the crest, some of the pits and the RH nazi proofs off with the stone. I’ll probably clean a few more pots off later.







To leave the serial though I had to fill the LH proof. Removed bluing with vinegar first. I cleaned the locking lugs and shoved a tightly packed wet rag in. I gently heated the proof area so the weld wouldn’t cool to fast and quench the MIG wire and make it too hard to work. Then a quick blip with the MIG and it was gone. Locking lugs barely got warm, let alone annealed.





I was concerned the MIG spot and ghost of the crest would still be visible after finishing so did a trial with the rust blue. Looking promising (to my standards at least!) even if I wasn’t overly thorough converting the rust with steaming. This is after two passes with a bakers soldering fluid/copper sulphate and trace hydrochloride acid mix I made up a year ago but never tried. I’m still thinking of giving ammonium chloride a go too, but this is quite nice even stopping at the coarse whet stone.



--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

Edited by Wedgetail (14/08/20 08:16 PM)

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344554 - 24/08/20 10:05 AM

Needing some feedback - how’s this for an authentic bolt knob? I think it’s close but can’t work where it’s off now. Dimensions are effectively the same but it’s a bit longer (I like a long knob) - 64mm as opposed to 60 as per Prechtl’s medium offering



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“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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