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themauserkid
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10.75x61 Mauser
      #340523 - 29/04/20 01:12 PM

I recently purchased a Stützen that ended up being chambered in a completely different caliber than advertised. While waiting for proper chamber casting material to arrive I made a wax cast of the chamber today. It appears to be a 10.75x61mm Haenel, DWM case number 523. I’m hoping to get any more possible information on the development or use of this cartridge. I’ve dug around and have yet to find another rifle mentioned in this caliber, if you know of any I would love to compare notes.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340530 - 29/04/20 04:21 PM

As you likely know, Mauser had a 10.75 X 68 that was also used by Steyr in their Mannlicher Schoenauer (a very rare option for the MS). The .404 Jefferey is described below as 10.75 X 73:











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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340536 - 29/04/20 10:46 PM

Thank you for those, I had no idea any MS were chambered for x68, that is very neat! This Stützen is however a 1908 Oberndorf action, not a MS. The cartridge is a .470 rim and the case dimensions seem to fall on DWM case 523.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340537 - 29/04/20 10:54 PM

Here are some pictures of the subject Stützen


Or not, I don’t have a photo host

Edited by themauserkid (29/04/20 10:59 PM)


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85lc
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340538 - 29/04/20 11:33 PM

Very interesting Please post a picture of your rifle.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: 85lc]
      #340539 - 30/04/20 12:58 AM

























[img]https://up.picr.de/38414073hu.jpeg[/img]













[img]https://up.picr.de/38413981qq.jpeg[/img]







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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: 85lc]
      #340540 - 30/04/20 01:03 AM

Check out municion.org for cartridge dimensions and a picture: https://municion.org/

Looks like it headspaces on the case mouth.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340541 - 30/04/20 01:12 AM

Thank you Lancaster, much appreciated!

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340542 - 30/04/20 01:13 AM

here it is



no time just now but the case is similar to the 10,75x57, having a shoulder but case mouth helps a lot.

great find and better than the 11,2x60 Schüler you were looking for. the first rifle I ever seen for this cartridge.
wish it would be mine

Eduard Kettner start as a mail order house in Köln but had a work shop in Suhl than because it was a must have to be seen serious.
I have no doubt this rifle was made there. of course there a re a lot of similaritys with other rifles from Suhl in this time frame because such man like stockmaker, engravers working for everyone there.

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340543 - 30/04/20 01:22 AM

I don't see the shoulder.



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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340545 - 30/04/20 01:31 AM

Have you slugged the bore? What is the 10,2mm under the barrel?

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340547 - 30/04/20 01:35 AM

It is extremely slight, perhaps less than a 10.75x57 shoulder. You can see it as a light shadow in my wax cast, easier to see in hand but still extremely slight. I will be able to provide a better look at the chamber when the material comes in.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340548 - 30/04/20 01:41 AM

10.2 would be the land dimension, not the bore. A cursory check appears to be a .423 bore, I’ll know better soon.

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340549 - 30/04/20 02:12 AM

I would not trust head spacing on such a slight shoulder. Slugging the bore will give you the bore AND the land dimension.

10.2mm = .4015". That is not the bore or land dimension of any 10.75 cartridge.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340550 - 30/04/20 02:19 AM

Quote:

It is extremely slight, perhaps less than a 10.75x57 shoulder. You can see it as a light shadow in my wax cast, easier to see in hand but still extremely slight. I will be able to provide a better look at the chamber when the material comes in.




How does such a case headspace with such a non existent shoulder and being rimless? Perhaps a reason it is so rare?

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DarylS
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: NitroX]
      #340553 - 30/04/20 03:16 AM

It headspaces on the case mouth and tiny shoulder combined.
Appears cases can be made from '06 brass, trimmed to the appropriate length, exactly, of course.

I agree John - one of the reasons for it's obscurity, I'm sure.

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Daryl


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #340561 - 30/04/20 04:32 AM

CIP gives 10,45mm for land and 10,75 mm for grooves with the 10,75x68,
but the only suviving rimmed 10,75 in the CIP list - the 10,75x49R Gründig have 10,20mm land and 10,75 mm groove so it was not completly unusual.

the rimmed cartridges and the rimless like the 10,75 x 57 and the 10,75x63 were all loaded with the same 350 grains bullet.
I would say the 10,2mm stamp on the barrel indicate that a gauge of 10,2 mm diameter pass the barrel in the proof house. so lands diameter actually could be more close to 10,30 mm.

the 10,75x57 was not a big success than but imho, it works by a combination of the little shoulder and the case mouth. I have such a rifle,dont make thousends of shoots because lack of time in general but had never an issue when firing it.
the shoulder is there and more to feel with the finger tips than to see with the eyes.I dont have much more informations about the 10,75x61 Haenel other than it exits but will ask friends who have maybe some stuff. would be good to see the factory ballistic to know what to load for.
I believe it came later than the other 10,75 mm cartridges and was offered only by C.G.Haenel in Suhl probably in Haenel made Mauser 98 hunting rifles, the Haenel M 1900 and 1909 also the older M 88 hunting rifle.
In Suhl there were a lots of firms side by side, all were knowing each other if not being related.
When Kettner get an order for a Mauser in 10,75x61 the rifle was build in the Kettner shop geting the barrel from the same barrel maker like any other, small parts were taken from a special maker who deliever any other gunmaker in Suhl with the same parts, if they dont had an engraver in the house the rifle was send to an engraver in the next street who made the same standard engraving on the rifle he did for all other firms.
in the end someone walking to the haenel factory and borrow the rare 10,75x61 chamber reamer for Kettner and your rifle and bring it back when the chamber was done.

if it was my rifle I would send the chamber cast to ch4d for a die set, had only the best experience with them. could be you are better with hawk bullets than woodleigh because they are softer.
the muzzle velocity was maybe +/- 620 m/sec with the 350 grains bullet, same like DWM was loading as special euro load for the 10,75x68.

to bad it lost the scope. my gunmaker would set another scope into the claw mount for 200 euro.

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3DogMike
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340562 - 30/04/20 04:47 AM

themauserkid,
What a nice rifle and interesting caliber! Best of luck getting it shooting.
Would be a fine cast lead bullet rifle if soft jacketed bullets are too scarce. I do like the Hawk bullets.
- Mike



Quote:

I would not trust head spacing on such a slight shoulder. Slugging the bore will give you the bore AND the land dimension.

10.2mm = .4015". That is not the bore or land dimension of any 10.75 cartridge.



jgrabow,
You are tripping over language usage and proof house protocol.
Nearly everywhere EXCEPT amongst USA gun nuts, “Bore” is understood to mean “land to land” measurement ie: the bore of the barrel before rifling.
10.2mm would be the largest nominal diameter (not necessarily exact land-land diameter) of the proof house plug gauge that would slide into the barrel. The Brits did the same thing except in decimal inches.
- Mike

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340563 - 30/04/20 04:49 AM

Quote:

Here are some pictures of the subject Stützen


Or not, I don’t have a photo host




Try this: Post Photos NE

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340570 - 30/04/20 05:43 AM

Thank you for all the input gentlemen. I was off a bit in my initial groove dimensioning, so I just slugged it properly. I melted a battery terminal into a .45-70 case, drilled the primer pocket and tapped it out. I turned it on my lathe to .425 and slugged it. Here are the dimensions as follows:

Bore: .4022

Groove: .4203


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340571 - 30/04/20 06:05 AM

Bore: .4022 = 10,21 mm

Groove: .4203 = 10,67 mm

narrow barrel but not unsafe, make hope it shoots fine

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340577 - 30/04/20 11:42 AM

Thanks Mike, I meant bore and groove and not bore and land.

Woodleigh bullets for the 10.75 and 404 measure .423. That could make for a tight fit. You might have to turn the case necks.

I have 404 350gr and 10.75 347gr bullets. I'll donate 5 of each if you want them. Just pay the shipping.

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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340580 - 30/04/20 04:55 PM

The two photos either side of that showing the leade and rifling in the barrel are showing the feed ramp which appears to have been severely cut away when the action has been opened up for the longer cartridge. Is there anything left of the feed ramp for the lower bolt lug to lock up against?
Is a common enough process opening up M98 actions for longer cartridges, I have one myself in 404J and there is a bit of work required on the feed ramp to fit longer cartridges but if what the photos show of the feed ramp on your Mauser is what it seems, that is quite radical and I'd be a bit concerned that the action strength has been compromised somewhat.


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #340590 - 01/05/20 03:30 AM


Appears to be some lug left- at a point at the top right corner, then thicker as it moves down.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #340591 - 01/05/20 03:37 AM

got an anwswer from a friend about it, cartridge collector, he have only one pic of the 10,75x61 Haenel in the original DWM cartridge case book.

and I mean the original book

will ask him for a pic of this very rare thing

he have a cartridge but can't give me a price because for many years there was no cartridge on the market for sale.
its one of the rarest cartridges DWM was making.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340594 - 01/05/20 05:38 AM

Very cool, thank you for checking, I would love to see that!

Jim, thank you for the offer that is much appreciated.

As to the lug, I wondered the same at first until I got the action out of the stock and got a better look at it. There is quite a lot left, and the lower receiver/lug extends all the way to the magazine box so still plenty of area left for shear strength. I have some actions opened up in the US for magnum calibers that I’ve scrapped with excessive lug removal.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340601 - 01/05/20 12:59 PM

Quote:

Very cool




A few more semi - relevant images and descriptions from the ol' 1939 Stoeger:







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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #340606 - 01/05/20 04:25 PM

Quote:


Appears to be some lug left- at a point at the top right corner, then thicker as it moves down.




Looks as though most of the centre of the feed ramp has been ground away, would like to see a clear photo of that area and maybe one looking up from underneath the opened magazine when the bolt is closed to see how much of the lower locking lug is supported. Maybe the photos are telling a lie, I hope so as it is a very nice historic rifle.


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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #340617 - 01/05/20 11:53 PM

I can take some pictures when I’m home in a couple days. I believe the picture to be misleading however, as the very forward portion of the lug is still full bolt diameter.


Those are neat Oberndorf adds Rothhammer! I still wonder who made this rifle, being the retailer, Ed Kettner (not the maker Franz Kettner) they had multiple firms in Suhl producing their ordered rifles. Lancaster mentioned the possibility of Haenel themselves, I looked through brochures to see if they possibly offered Mausers, but haven’t come up with anything yet, has anyone spotted one before? With the interrelationships in Suhl, it sure makes it hard to narrow down.


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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340622 - 02/05/20 12:56 AM

'he have a cartridge but can't give me a price because for many years there was no cartridge on the market for sale. its one of the rarest cartridges DWM was making.'

lancaster, could you measure the COAL?

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340635 - 02/05/20 10:14 AM

Quote:


Those are neat Oberndorf adds Rothhammer!




I thought you might like them, particularly the descrptions, as yours seems to have characteristics of both. Does yours have the trap - door steel buttplate?

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340636 - 02/05/20 10:19 AM

Quote:








Of the photos posted by Lancaster, #6 is of a different rifle. Round bolt handle, no claw mounts.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340642 - 02/05/20 01:21 PM

That’s one of my JP Sauers that accidentally got in the picture mix.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340644 - 02/05/20 03:31 PM

to my own surprise the 10,75 x 57 and the 10,75x61 have more or less the same oal





that means they have more or less the same case capacity and would be ballistically very similar.
why does the 10,75x61 exist than? I believe only because someone thought the Haenel cartridge was the better design and order this.
its like the 400/360 Purdey and the 400/360 Westley Richards, two cartridges dying out and the better 9,3x74R survive. I will ask my friend again for the oal of his round to confirm it.
The 10,75 was imho the older cartridge maybe invented around the year 1900 when the 8x57 cartridge M 88 was necked down to the 6,5x57, than necked up to 9x57, 10,75x57 and 9,3x57.

the 10,75x57 was loaded with 3,5 (53,9 grains) gramm Rottweil R 5 powder and the 350 grains bullet giving a V0 of 620 m/sec.
R 5 was a powder that seems to be very similar to Vithavuori N 140, look here for similar powders to get an idea what to do:




thats the cartridge of my friend






and that is a detail from the DWM case book.I am not authorized to show the whole page.
this book was hand written by the DWM staff over the decades. every cartridge that was notice by DWM was written in this book made later or not, old or new. there it got the DWM case number that was used later itf the case came into production




its called there "Pirschbüchse Kaliber 10,5 mm Haenel/Suhl" Pirschbüchse means stalking rifle. why was it written as caliber 10,5 mm? we don't know because its indeed the 10,75.

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340657 - 02/05/20 11:08 PM

I can't read the detail from the book. Is there a bullet weight written in the book? That bullet sure looks heavier than 350 gr.

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Jim


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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340658 - 02/05/20 11:19 PM

Very interesting! Thank you so much for the information and pictures. It does seem rather redundant indeed, interesting that it is a 3.2g powder charge, as compared to the x57’s 3.5g. Perhaps with the deeper seated seated bullet it is an even smaller case capacity. I thought I read a mention of it in 1900 but I cannot confirm that as I can’t seem to find it again, I maybe confusing that with another cartridge I was reading about. Thanks again!

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340659 - 03/05/20 12:31 AM

Reduced charge could be due to a heavier, maybe a 400 gr bullet. The 61mm case could have been used because someone wanted more powder space than the 57mm provided for the heavier bullet.

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Jim


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340660 - 03/05/20 12:46 AM

Quote:

Very interesting! Thank you so much for the information and pictures. It does seem rather redundant indeed, interesting that it is a 3.2g powder charge, as compared to the x57’s 3.5g. Perhaps with the deeper seated seated bullet it is an even smaller case capacity. I thought I read a mention of it in 1900 but I cannot confirm that as I can’t seem to find it again, I maybe confusing that with another cartridge I was reading about. Thanks again!




the 3,5 grains were Gewehrblättchenpulver,iirc and not Rottweil R 5
that makes a difference

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340662 - 03/05/20 01:05 AM

Ahh very true. In the waffenlexikon it is listed as 1904, would be neat if that DWM page was dated.

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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340685 - 03/05/20 01:27 PM

Unusual looking bullet in that cartridge, big blue nose suggests for low velocity.

I have a mystery 10.75 bullet I brought back from West Germany in the early 80's, was loaded in a Norma 10.75x68 case. Curiosity got the better of me one day and I pulled the bullet to discover no powder in the case and the case was Berdan primed. The bullet is an RWS steel jacketed hollow nose weighing exactly 280 grains. The deep hollow nose doesn't look to have been drilled, looks more like punched as it would be done in a factory and the 280gr 'rounded' weight seems to support that theory.

I have a little stash of the RWS 347gr steel jacketed flat point bullets and have seen these in pictures of earlier loaded cartridges for the 10.75x68 but despite some research online I haven't come across the 280gr hollow nose bullet listed anywhere. These lighter hollow nose bullets would have been the cats whiskers for the 10.75x61 and could have been loaded in that cartridge at some stage.

Norma Berdan primed 10.75x68 case


RWS 280gr and 347gr steel jacketed bullets


RWS emblem on bullets


RWS 280gr hollow nose and 347gr flat nose bullets


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #340688 - 03/05/20 02:54 PM

this is not a norma made case but a german pre war and Norm means Normalisiert = normalised. never see this RWS hollow point bullet before but its factory made, no doubt about it.



got the measurments for this cartridge





oal 78,60 mm

rim diameter 11,83 mm

base diameter 11,85 mm

shoulder 11,70 mm

case neck 11,50mm

a little bit longer than the municion.org drawing but they had probably another load with another bullet




notice that the mother case 8x57 had than a maximum diameter of 11,88mm but on paper brass go up to 11,95 mm. I had this problem once when making brass for the 9x57 and 9,3x57 ( pre ww1 M 88 and 1927 made Husqvarna) by using new 8x57 cases. resized the cases with my brand new die sets and they dont chamber until I turn down the brass on the lathe a little bit so it measure under 11,88mm.
could be the same with 30 06 or 35 whelen cases in your Kettner rifle.


any stuff about the 10,75x61 is hard find! another friend found this in an old cartridge auction catalog.


he will looking for more


the measurments in the DWM case book are hard to read for me also, I will ask for this again and for the bullet weight.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340696 - 03/05/20 04:06 PM

looking for older post about the 10,75 x57 I came to buckstix Haenel Model 1900 in 10,75x68 - rechambered - from something unknown
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/newreply....mp;vc=1&q=1

and when looking on the pics it hits me like a hammer











we dont figure it out then what it was before someone stamp it with 10,75x68



but it have the same proof load like the kettner rifle here! so far any C.G.Haenel pre WW 1 rifle in 10,75x68 is now a suspect old 10,75x61 Haenel!

here another one in auction in 2008 by James D.Julia


look at Haenel advertisments but the 10,75 is not there








--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340697 - 03/05/20 04:12 PM

Quote:

this is not a norma made case but a german pre war and Norm means Normalisiert = normalised. never see this RWS hollow point bullet before but its factory made, no doubt about it.




Thanks lancaster that's useful information and clears up one part of the mystery. I don't know why the powder had been removed, an avid firearms friend of mine gave it to me along with a range of other fully loaded European cartridges when I spent a year in Germany and brought them all back into NZ on my return. My friend emigrated to NZ and passed away here some years ago so sadly I can't ask him now about the origins of that cartridge and especially the bullet.


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #340700 - 03/05/20 07:53 PM

got a better pic form the DWM case book, it show maximum - minimum




measurments are

bullet diameter 10,75 - 10,70 min.
rim diameter 11,95 - 11,85 min.
base diameter 11,95-11,85 min.
case length 61,5-61,2 min.
cartridge oal 79-78,5mm

cases crossed out with red are taken out of production, in this case probabyl 1913-1914

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340720 - 04/05/20 02:30 AM

to get an impression what 3,2 gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver means






the common load for the 8x57I was 2,75 gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340733 - 04/05/20 08:14 AM

It’s looks like you’re on to it! I came across that particular rifle as well, but did not make that correlation. That’s very interesting and makes sense. It would be interesting to compare other 10.75x68 chambers as his had very little throat if I recall correctly. However, if one is proofed for a 3,2g charge I suppose that rules out an original 10.75x68 chamber anyway. Thanks for the clearer picture of the DWM book, what a resource!

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