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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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themauserkid
.275 member

Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas

Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340594 - 01/05/20 05:38 AM

Very cool, thank you for checking, I would love to see that!

Jim, thank you for the offer that is much appreciated.

As to the lug, I wondered the same at first until I got the action out of the stock and got a better look at it. There is quite a lot left, and the lower receiver/lug extends all the way to the magazine box so still plenty of area left for shear strength. I have some actions opened up in the US for magnum calibers that I’ve scrapped with excessive lug removal.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340601 - 01/05/20 12:59 PM

Quote:

Very cool

A few more semi - relevant images and descriptions from the ol' 1939 Stoeger:

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
#340606 - 01/05/20 04:25 PM

Quote:

Appears to be some lug left- at a point at the top right corner, then thicker as it moves down.

Looks as though most of the centre of the feed ramp has been ground away, would like to see a clear photo of that area and maybe one looking up from underneath the opened magazine when the bolt is closed to see how much of the lower locking lug is supported. Maybe the photos are telling a lie, I hope so as it is a very nice historic rifle.

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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas

Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
#340617 - 01/05/20 11:53 PM

I can take some pictures when I’m home in a couple days. I believe the picture to be misleading however, as the very forward portion of the lug is still full bolt diameter.

Those are neat Oberndorf adds Rothhammer! I still wonder who made this rifle, being the retailer, Ed Kettner (not the maker Franz Kettner) they had multiple firms in Suhl producing their ordered rifles. Lancaster mentioned the possibility of Haenel themselves, I looked through brochures to see if they possibly offered Mausers, but haven’t come up with anything yet, has anyone spotted one before? With the interrelationships in Suhl, it sure makes it hard to narrow down.

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jgrabow
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Reged: 22/12/08
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Loc: Winter Wisconsin

Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340622 - 02/05/20 12:56 AM

'he have a cartridge but can't give me a price because for many years there was no cartridge on the market for sale. its one of the rarest cartridges DWM was making.'

lancaster, could you measure the COAL?

--------------------
Jim

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340635 - 02/05/20 10:14 AM

Quote:

Those are neat Oberndorf adds Rothhammer!

I thought you might like them, particularly the descrptions, as yours seems to have characteristics of both. Does yours have the trap - door steel buttplate?

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340636 - 02/05/20 10:19 AM

Quote:

Of the photos posted by Lancaster, #6 is of a different rifle. Round bolt handle, no claw mounts.

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
#340642 - 02/05/20 01:21 PM

That’s one of my JP Sauers that accidentally got in the picture mix.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340644 - 02/05/20 03:31 PM

to my own surprise the 10,75 x 57 and the 10,75x61 have more or less the same oal

that means they have more or less the same case capacity and would be ballistically very similar.
why does the 10,75x61 exist than? I believe only because someone thought the Haenel cartridge was the better design and order this.
its like the 400/360 Purdey and the 400/360 Westley Richards, two cartridges dying out and the better 9,3x74R survive. I will ask my friend again for the oal of his round to confirm it.
The 10,75 was imho the older cartridge maybe invented around the year 1900 when the 8x57 cartridge M 88 was necked down to the 6,5x57, than necked up to 9x57, 10,75x57 and 9,3x57.

the 10,75x57 was loaded with 3,5 (53,9 grains) gramm Rottweil R 5 powder and the 350 grains bullet giving a V0 of 620 m/sec.
R 5 was a powder that seems to be very similar to Vithavuori N 140, look here for similar powders to get an idea what to do:

thats the cartridge of my friend

and that is a detail from the DWM case book.I am not authorized to show the whole page.
this book was hand written by the DWM staff over the decades. every cartridge that was notice by DWM was written in this book made later or not, old or new. there it got the DWM case number that was used later itf the case came into production

its called there "Pirschbüchse Kaliber 10,5 mm Haenel/Suhl" Pirschbüchse means stalking rifle. why was it written as caliber 10,5 mm? we don't know because its indeed the 10,75.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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jgrabow
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Reged: 22/12/08
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Loc: Winter Wisconsin

Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340657 - 02/05/20 11:08 PM

I can't read the detail from the book. Is there a bullet weight written in the book? That bullet sure looks heavier than 350 gr.

--------------------
Jim

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340658 - 02/05/20 11:19 PM

Very interesting! Thank you so much for the information and pictures. It does seem rather redundant indeed, interesting that it is a 3.2g powder charge, as compared to the x57’s 3.5g. Perhaps with the deeper seated seated bullet it is an even smaller case capacity. I thought I read a mention of it in 1900 but I cannot confirm that as I can’t seem to find it again, I maybe confusing that with another cartridge I was reading about. Thanks again!

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340659 - 03/05/20 12:31 AM

Reduced charge could be due to a heavier, maybe a 400 gr bullet. The 61mm case could have been used because someone wanted more powder space than the 57mm provided for the heavier bullet.

--------------------
Jim

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340660 - 03/05/20 12:46 AM

Quote:

Very interesting! Thank you so much for the information and pictures. It does seem rather redundant indeed, interesting that it is a 3.2g powder charge, as compared to the x57’s 3.5g. Perhaps with the deeper seated seated bullet it is an even smaller case capacity. I thought I read a mention of it in 1900 but I cannot confirm that as I can’t seem to find it again, I maybe confusing that with another cartridge I was reading about. Thanks again!

the 3,5 grains were Gewehrblättchenpulver,iirc and not Rottweil R 5
that makes a difference

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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themauserkid
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Loc: Texas

Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340662 - 03/05/20 01:05 AM

Ahh very true. In the waffenlexikon it is listed as 1904, would be neat if that DWM page was dated.

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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
#340685 - 03/05/20 01:27 PM

Unusual looking bullet in that cartridge, big blue nose suggests for low velocity.

I have a mystery 10.75 bullet I brought back from West Germany in the early 80's, was loaded in a Norma 10.75x68 case. Curiosity got the better of me one day and I pulled the bullet to discover no powder in the case and the case was Berdan primed. The bullet is an RWS steel jacketed hollow nose weighing exactly 280 grains. The deep hollow nose doesn't look to have been drilled, looks more like punched as it would be done in a factory and the 280gr 'rounded' weight seems to support that theory.

I have a little stash of the RWS 347gr steel jacketed flat point bullets and have seen these in pictures of earlier loaded cartridges for the 10.75x68 but despite some research online I haven't come across the 280gr hollow nose bullet listed anywhere. These lighter hollow nose bullets would have been the cats whiskers for the 10.75x61 and could have been loaded in that cartridge at some stage.

Norma Berdan primed 10.75x68 case

RWS 280gr and 347gr steel jacketed bullets

RWS emblem on bullets

RWS 280gr hollow nose and 347gr flat nose bullets

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
#340688 - 03/05/20 02:54 PM

this is not a norma made case but a german pre war and Norm means Normalisiert = normalised. never see this RWS hollow point bullet before but its factory made, no doubt about it.

got the measurments for this cartridge

oal 78,60 mm

rim diameter 11,83 mm

base diameter 11,85 mm

shoulder 11,70 mm

case neck 11,50mm

a little bit longer than the municion.org drawing but they had probably another load with another bullet

notice that the mother case 8x57 had than a maximum diameter of 11,88mm but on paper brass go up to 11,95 mm. I had this problem once when making brass for the 9x57 and 9,3x57 ( pre ww1 M 88 and 1927 made Husqvarna) by using new 8x57 cases. resized the cases with my brand new die sets and they dont chamber until I turn down the brass on the lathe a little bit so it measure under 11,88mm.
could be the same with 30 06 or 35 whelen cases in your Kettner rifle.

any stuff about the 10,75x61 is hard find! another friend found this in an old cartridge auction catalog.

he will looking for more

the measurments in the DWM case book are hard to read for me also, I will ask for this again and for the bullet weight.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340696 - 03/05/20 04:06 PM

looking for older post about the 10,75 x57 I came to buckstix Haenel Model 1900 in 10,75x68 - rechambered - from something unknown
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/newreply....mp;vc=1&q=1

and when looking on the pics it hits me like a hammer

we dont figure it out then what it was before someone stamp it with 10,75x68

but it have the same proof load like the kettner rifle here! so far any C.G.Haenel pre WW 1 rifle in 10,75x68 is now a suspect old 10,75x61 Haenel!

here another one in auction in 2008 by James D.Julia

look at Haenel advertisments but the 10,75 is not there

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340697 - 03/05/20 04:12 PM

Quote:

this is not a norma made case but a german pre war and Norm means Normalisiert = normalised. never see this RWS hollow point bullet before but its factory made, no doubt about it.

Thanks lancaster that's useful information and clears up one part of the mystery. I don't know why the powder had been removed, an avid firearms friend of mine gave it to me along with a range of other fully loaded European cartridges when I spent a year in Germany and brought them all back into NZ on my return. My friend emigrated to NZ and passed away here some years ago so sadly I can't ask him now about the origins of that cartridge and especially the bullet.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
#340700 - 03/05/20 07:53 PM

got a better pic form the DWM case book, it show maximum - minimum

measurments are

bullet diameter 10,75 - 10,70 min.
rim diameter 11,95 - 11,85 min.
base diameter 11,95-11,85 min.
case length 61,5-61,2 min.
cartridge oal 79-78,5mm

cases crossed out with red are taken out of production, in this case probabyl 1913-1914

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340720 - 04/05/20 02:30 AM

to get an impression what 3,2 gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver means

the common load for the 8x57I was 2,75 gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver

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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
#340733 - 04/05/20 08:14 AM

It’s looks like you’re on to it! I came across that particular rifle as well, but did not make that correlation. That’s very interesting and makes sense. It would be interesting to compare other 10.75x68 chambers as his had very little throat if I recall correctly. However, if one is proofed for a 3,2g charge I suppose that rules out an original 10.75x68 chamber anyway. Thanks for the clearer picture of the DWM book, what a resource!

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