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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction
      #313777 - 10/03/18 08:33 AM

Well, sometimes chicken and sometimes feathers. See the image of the lot that I purchased from the last Rock Island Auction. The general description was pasted below. I felt like it was purposely vague and misleading. When I called them, they were nice and wanted to know what kind of compensation I was looking for. I told them I was looking for accurate descriptions on items so I could make an informed decision. I don't know if they would refund any money or not, that was not the issue. The problem was with the "John Dickson and Son" Mauser. Their appraiser is more knowledgeable than I. However, it had a John Dickson and Son marked barrel that was screwed into a WWII surplus action - so how could it be "custom built before WWII". The marking in question is beautifully done with the address and is located under the wood line and almost on the bottom - almost - just where it fell when the barrel was re-used. None of the parts match. It does have a small Otto Bock marking on the stock. Problem is that it does not have any German or English proof marks. This rifle was assembled in the US from parts which is obvious to any person who is even remotely interested in Mausers, much less their appraiser who has likely looked at thousands. Are they exempt from any blame because the Consignor note says it was custom made before WWII? If the note said it belonged to Adolf Hitler himself and they knew it was untrue, should they say that? Anyway, I felt cheated by the experience. I have had some favorable experiences in the past which are off-set completely by this one. I bear part of the responsibility for not making them send me a better photo of the left side - one that I could enlarge for I would have seen the MOD 98 on the left receiver rail. Lesson learned.


John Dickson & Son Marked Mauser Model 98 Sporting Rifle
Otto Bock marked stock. Consignor notes: Custom built just before WWII.



--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 5158
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313791 - 10/03/18 02:52 PM

the rifle itelf looks great but does it have a rear sight?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #313820 - 11/03/18 03:13 AM

There is no provision for a rear sight. The action is drilled and tapped for a one piece base. The hole spacing on a Leupold base does not work. I am looking for a Redfield one piece to try.
I am playing with making some brass to fire form into 6.5 X 61 Mauser - a Brenneke round that never really caught on. So far this is the process to form a case:

1. Run 270 Win case through a .270 FL size die with the expander ball removed.
2. run case into 7 X 57 die until shoulder is set back to 6.5 X 61 length.
3. Trim case a little longer than final length (will shorten when formed)
4. Anneal case neck/shoulder.
5. Run case part of the way into 6.5 Rem Mag size die and use the false shoulder formed to headspace against - the 6.5 die only neck sizes the case.
6. Fireform with Bullseye and Cream of Wheat.

Without investing in a set of dies, is there a better way to form cases?

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313822 - 11/03/18 04:19 AM

What is the rate of rifling twist?

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313823 - 11/03/18 04:22 AM

Also - those cases will likely need neck reaming and turning once you get them formed, but your process doesn't sound bad.

Are you going to get on it this weekend?


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313824 - 11/03/18 04:25 AM

Oh - look here...



https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=55828

Someone discussing this rifle from 2014


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18166
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313825 - 11/03/18 04:34 AM

Good link, John.

"The Grasset catalogs mentions a MV of 1000 m/s (3280.83 fps) and ME 400 kgm (881.84 ft·lb) but the closest ballistic performance for the 6.5 x 61 Mauser published by DWM in 1930 is MV 945 m/s (3100.39 fps) and ME 351 kgm (773.82 ft·lb) with 3,5 g (54 grs) of R. 2 powder and 7.7 g (118.82 grs) bullet."

Might be the same as the 6.5x68's 12" twist.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: Daryl_S]
      #313827 - 11/03/18 04:39 AM

I'd be wishing for a fast twist!
1:8 would be great for the modern high-BC 140gr hunting bullets.

But yes, as I look elsewhere for information on this cartridge I see 257 Hyper Express and other info coming up.


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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313831 - 11/03/18 05:09 AM

Interesting that you found this rifle on the internet from years past.......... I checked the twist rate and I got 1 turn in 7.5 inches. I expected a 1 in 9".

By the way, John Dickson and Son never retailed a 6.5X61 but they did sell 6.5X54s.
John

Edited by TexasJohn (11/03/18 05:12 AM)


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313832 - 11/03/18 05:35 AM

Have you cast the chamber?
Can you fire form a case today?
I'm here watching!

I'd be very happy with that fast twist.
Today's long, high-BC, heavy 6.5 hunting bullets are very very nice.

Form some brass, John!
Please let's see what you have there.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313833 - 11/03/18 05:45 AM

I saw your comment on scope mount holes, but looking at the picture...

You say the barrel marking is under the wood - and there's no provision for a rear sight - and the stock does not look cut for a receiver sight - and that barrel band looks to be the provision for the forward stock screw/sling swivel...

How is the front sight attached?


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TexasJohn
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Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313836 - 11/03/18 06:26 AM

Front sight is sweated on. There is no cut for a receiver sight. Probably had a barrel band rear sight originally as there are no holes in the barrel. There seems to be some type of a sleeve arrangement with a barrel stub from a military rifle where it comes out of the receiver that I do not understand. Nor did the FFL dealer who is a fair gunsmith. I formed a case and it measures out to be a 6.5X61 as best I can tell. It did not form as completely as I would have liked because my forming load was a little too mild.



--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313837 - 11/03/18 07:13 AM




From Municion

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313838 - 11/03/18 07:18 AM

I'd be stuffing powder and a bullet in there and finishing the job



Depending on how much money you have into it - I'd say you might have a really fun hunting rifle there.

What's the comment on the barrel?
There's a spacer..?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 2804
Loc: Colorado
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313839 - 11/03/18 08:11 AM

Reading the description, I don’t see that they misrepresented the rifle. They didn’t exactly paint a pretty picture...
Look in the stock for any Mauser marks for a Model S.
The stock looks pretty spot on for an Oberndorf S

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 1441
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: Huvius]
      #313843 - 11/03/18 09:37 AM

A chap that I know bought a little Mauser in 7x57 with exactly the same type of barrel where there was no provision for a rear sight and the breech end of the barrel looked exactly the same as yours with that step. It is like as if the original barrel was shot out but to keep the proof marks so to avoid reproofing, they bored out the original barrel and turned down another barrel complete with chamber and sweated it in. I realise that you said your rifle has no proof marks but maybe have a look into the action at the back of the barrel and see of there is a faint joint line.

The rifle looks very nice otherwise in what seems like an interesting cartridge. With that twist rate it would be ideal for 160 grain bullets. Personally if the rifle is in good condition and it shoots alright, I would persist and fit some rear sights and sort out some scope bases.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #313853 - 11/03/18 03:25 PM

iirc, 1935 DWM catalog





http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post276546

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 762
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #313862 - 11/03/18 09:02 PM

Here's a 1935 DWM chart from the '39 Stoeger:










--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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85lc
.224 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #313896 - 12/03/18 10:15 AM

Is the 6.5x61 Mauser close enough to the 256 Newton (6.5x62) that you can use trimmed Newton brass, Newton loading dies, and loading data?

I have a 256 Newton that appears to have the same ballistics. It has a 1/10 twist barrel so it is really designed for 120 to 129 gr bullets. It would be nice if Newton had used a faster twist barrel but I believe he was looking for speed which a lighter bullet provided.

--------------------
RB


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: 85lc]
      #313897 - 12/03/18 10:46 AM

6.5x61 from the Municion site






256 Newton from the Municion site




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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TexasJohn
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Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: 85lc]
      #313898 - 12/03/18 10:54 AM

Overall length of the 6.5X61 is 2.40 - the 6.5X06 is 2.49. Case capacity is 3 grains of water more than the 6.5X06. Since loading data for the 6.5X06 is easily found. It should work for the 6.5X61 Mauser.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313899 - 12/03/18 10:54 AM

Without the frustration and/or expense of the our friend TexasJohn from the process he took to get here, I'm excited about his rifle.

If the barrel is from a Dickson and Son rifle, and if they used a 6.5x54 or 6.5x53r barrel, the twist would have been in the neighborhood of 1:7.8 or so. Close to John's 7.5 twist measurement. Groove diameter might be big, but I'd be trying a modern high-BC heavy hybrid in there right away.

Might not be exactly what he was hoping for, but it might just be a really neat hunting rifle after all!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313900 - 12/03/18 10:56 AM

Quote:

Overall length of the 6.5X61 is 2.40 - the 6.5X06 is 2.49. Case capacity is 3 grains of water more than the 6.5X06. Since loading data for the 6.5X06 is easily found. It should work for the 6.5X61 Mauser.

John





I was thinking the same thing last night.
2800fpsMV with 140s should be easy

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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TexasJohn
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Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Texas
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: tinker]
      #313902 - 12/03/18 11:24 AM

I made up 10 rounds to fire form - maybe next weekend. Found some 150 grain cast bullets I had stuck in the junk box and loaded them up to about 1500 fps. Should form cases well enough. I checked the bore and it is tight. The rifle should shoot. I have to get a scope rigged up on it before I can sight it in. I owned a 6.5X06 one time and killed two Mule Deer bucks with it before I traded it to a friend who still owns it.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3754
Loc: Nevada
Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction [Re: TexasJohn]
      #313909 - 12/03/18 08:24 PM

There's a very nice US made striker mounted aperture sight.

See here.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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