Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: American .323" bullets

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #289294 - 22/10/16 03:29 AM

Well done, Steve.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #290357 - 16/11/16 03:48 AM

Shooting a 8,2x53R I use 200gr Nosler AccuBonds.
The factory velocity is listed @ 2525 fps and that is on the button over the chrono.

The bullet is .323" and at that velocity very close to the 8x57 Mauser.

I use the gun on both light and heavy game from roe to wild boar to whitetail to moose. I also have used it on safari where I took Gemsbok.
I sought a bullet that will open up on light game but will also penetrate and hold together on heavy game (moose and bear).

I cannot guarantee you an exit on elk but the performance on game has left nothing to desire, and the accuracy is superb. For a guaranteed exit I'd go with the Partition.
The AccuBond is very reasonably priced.
In fairness, I have loaded other bullets as well but this is the only one I have used on game besides old Sako Hammerheads.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Schauckis]
      #290378 - 16/11/16 10:26 AM

Accubonds are on my list of "Bullets to try"
Thanks for the insight.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dotchicco
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/16
Posts: 135
Loc: ITALY
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291109 - 30/11/16 11:05 AM

Hello,
I have hunt for several years, and still do, with an old Mauser k98 chambered in 8x57js. A good caliber for hunting in the Woods. In long barrels like the k98 ones, The heavy bullets works better. I tried several european bullets from RWS and Norma. All good bullets: TIG, Doppelkern, vulkan, oryx. But my favourite is the A frame from Swift. It expands well within 50/70 meters,on medium size game, and better on heavy games. Never recovered a bullet from an animal, always found a blood path to follow.
An expensive bullet but really a premium bullet. It works great also in m 8x68S.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: dotchicco]
      #291127 - 30/11/16 01:31 PM

I have also used Swift bullet zeroing a few custom rifles I have made for customers, but I have never used one on game. They seem to be a very good product, but far too expensive for me to use myself. Those customers who asked for the rifles to be set up with Swift A-Frames have more money than I do.


In every case so far but 1, I have gotten good exits from Nosler Partition bullets on all game I have shot with them. Partitions are also expensive, but about 1/2 the cost of the Swifts A-Frame bullets, and I am getting fantastically quick kills, so I see no real reason to switch to Swift. The only Nosler Partition I have ever recovered was from a 270 I killed an elk with last season at about 400 yards. That bullet went through about 44" of the elk, length wise, and I found it under the skin of the neck on the other side. It was a 160 gr .277 and it still weighs 129 gr after that much penetration of a big elk, so I have no complaints.

I have also seen very good results from the expanding solid bullets like Barnes X and Hornady GMX.

Not to mention all the excellent bonded core bullets that are now offered by Nosler and Hornady.

So again, I can't see any reason to buy Swift.
They are pricing themselves out of the reach (or justification) of MOST American shooters and hunters.

Excellent bullets, but not good marketing policies or leadership.

Edited by szihn (30/11/16 01:36 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291136 - 30/11/16 06:36 PM

Swifts are pretty much what I use on 90% of my hunts and are what I consider the prefect bullet. Have used them in my 416 Rem on everything from Duiker to Cape Buffalo in Africa on numerous hunts..Have recovered a few..one out of a wart hog facing me..shot him in the chest..found the bullet under his tail..92% retention and perfect mushroom..another out of a cape buffalo--90% retention...they work in most speeds and especially at faster MV's which is what I also use a lot..or in heavy tough game such as a cape buffalo ..

Have also used Accubonds..they are a good bullet provided you use them in proper velocities and distances..the jacket on a Accubond is much thinner than on a Swift Scirocco or A-frame...used them on my first trip to Zimbabwe..shot 180gr Accubonds out of my 300 RUM..3370fps..horrible choice..bad penetration and violent expansion...not as bad as a Berger , but close...speaking of Bergers, they are total pieces of shit as far as I am concerned and should NOT be used for hunting, period.

I do use Accubonds on smaller mtn game out of my 280AI..140 grs..mv 3100fps...been using them on Tur or Ibex sized game and at those velocities and distances, they work fine..but, in my experience and opinion, if you shoot a rifle with MV around 3100fps or more and the shots will be close..200 yards or less, there are better bullets (Swift) and are NOT the bullet to use..tried Accubonds again in 2015 on elk out of a 7RUM..again really poor performance...having said that, they work fine out of my wife's 308 Winchester with 165 gr Accubonds...mv at about 2800fps..not as good as a Swift, but they work o.k...the other good thing about accubonds, they are very accurate..but as you stated in an earlier post on this thread, what good is that if they don't penetrate???

As to price, and each to their own, but if I am out there busting my butt up and down mtns, whether here in Montana or Kyrgyzstan and a shot presents itself, I want a bullet that will get the job done, period. I feel I owe it to the game I am shooting, for a quick and definite death and to myself as I have my own time and money invested. So frankly don't care on cost if it works...I can shoot and practice with the cheap stuff, have no problem with that and do. But when the rubber hits the road, I will pretty much take a Swift over anything else out there including the Barnes..and yes I do also use them, primarily out of a couple rifles I had built in .257 Weatherby caliber..shooting the 100gr TSX at around 3675+fps..have used them on pronghorn, mule deer and elk..the problem for me is in certain cases, the entrance and exit wound is the size of a pencil. I don't like that and so, again, especially for elk sized game, I will stick with the Swift. to date I have used the in .416 Rem, 375H&H, 338RUM, 300RUM, 7RUM and just loaded up a batch of 160gr for the 28Nosler..Also working up loads for the 375H&H to take back to Africa in a few weeks for large plains game such as eland. My bullet of choice is the 270Gr A-Frame..

Thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291148 - 30/11/16 09:52 PM

Personally I only use premium bullets for hunting and for me the cost wouldn't come into it, obviously within reason. For me a premium bullet is a weldcore and I use Woodleigh Round Nose Soft Nose as well as Protected Points, both work superbly every time and I have never lost an animal when using them. In the past I have also used Speer Grandslams and found them to be very good. For practice I use Bertram bullets which you wouldn't hunt with but are great for practice and cheap to boot.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dotchicco
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/16
Posts: 135
Loc: ITALY
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #291155 - 30/11/16 10:57 PM

Well, i don't know how many times in year you shot at hunting... I usually shot 7/10 animals per year, sometime 15, and all of them with 1 round.. i can spent 2-3 round for zeroing the rifle.. so a box of bullets last for almost 5 years since a use different calibers for different kind of hunting (drive hunt, still hunting, stalkinf hunting).
For practice or for fun i shoot cheap bullets, but for hunting just premium bullets..

Edited by dotchicco (30/11/16 10:58 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: dotchicco]
      #291164 - 01/12/16 12:30 AM

I am in agreement with dotchicco. I also kill several animals a year. I have never looked at an "average" but I'd guess I am likely to shoot about 5-10 a year. I have to look at this average over a 52 year span of time now.
I always want a bullet that gives me full penetration. I don't always get it, but I do most of the time.
And I like bullets that hold 60% or more of their weight. I have used some cup-and-core bullets that do this in some calibers. Not all premium performance comes from so-called premium bullets. Some old cup-and -core bullets do very well.

In the 52 years I have been a hunter I have seen many bullets that work very well shot at about 2800 FPS that will come apart when shot at 3300 FPS on the same kind of game at the same ranges. The faster a gun shoots the more you need a tough bullet.

If I had to give a "blanket blessing" to one brand and type of bullet from my experience over 52 years of hunting I would give that blessing to Nosler Partitions.

It is possible to drive them fast enough to break them up, but only with the fastest of the most modern magnums, none of when I own. I have no interest in them at all.

But shooting them from rifle as fast as the 270 WSM and the 25-06 I have never been displeased. I have killed animals as close as 4 feet away, and I have killed many deer with them at 500-650 yards. I killed one deer with one round from my 270 Winchester at 890 yards. The bullets always expended and they have never come apart to a point that I was displeased at any range, at any game.
I have used them in 257 cal, 264 cal, 277 cal, 308 cal, 338 cal, 358 cal and 375 cal. I have seen friends use them in 224 cal, 243 cal and 284 cal too and they also had no complaints at all.

Expanding solids like the Barnes X and the new Hornady GMX bullets do just as well at ranges out to about 400 yards, but fail to expend much at longer range. The Partitions are still the best all-around hunting bullets I have found.

The new bonded core bullets may give the Partitions a run for their money however. I have only a small amount of experience with them so far, but as of now I have not seen anything to gripe about with them.

But I have killed many many animals with Remington "Core-Lokts", Winchester Power Points, Hornady Inter-Lock and Speer Hot-Core bullets. That's why I know that some are good and some are not.
There are some sleepers in those old bullets, bullets that no one talks about much but that work extremely well. And there are those that "just flat suck".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291166 - 01/12/16 01:22 AM

Steve
IF you are shooting reloads in the 270WSM you state you have, the 130gr loads run, per the NOSLER manual 33-3400fps...http://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/270-winchester-short-magnum-wsm/

That is basically the same velocity the 26 and 28 Noslers are using for their respective "optimum bullet weights"...the 130's and 140's I am shooting out of my 26Nosler is 3300-3400fps ---the 160's out of my 28Nolser is similar at 3300...AND in my 300RUM, I shoot heavy for caliber in that as I am normally shooting bigger elk/eland/zebra sized game, prefer 200gr Swift A-Frames...which is closer to 3150fps...so, the comment you have no use for the high velocity mags..you are already shooting one...hence the name, Winchester Short Mag.

As to the Partition, they are a 60% bullet just as the Accubond is claimed to be..again, in my experience which includes shooting 100's of head of game around the planet, the "Holy Grail Partition" does not come close to holding up like a A-Frame or Scirocco for that matter once over 3100fps...Jackets on both are thicker in addition to the Swifts being a bonded bullet. The Accubond is as well, but has a very thin jacket..

I know its not a large number, but just in Africa alone I have harvested over 70 head of plains game..have used the Swifts in 98% of the time with no failures what so ever..and 99% of the time, one shot kills...so, I am sticking with what I know..

Based on what you have described shooting with the standard 270Winchester, you will like the Accubonds..

Thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/12/16 02:10 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291170 - 01/12/16 02:24 AM

No Ripp, I use 160 grain Noslers in my 270 WSM. (about 3050 FPS) Never 130s. In fact my R-1 Benelli shoots "about modified choke" with 130s

I do not like to shoot rifles that go much faster then 3000 FPS.

I use "heavy for caliber bullets" in most of my rifles.

In my 25-06 I use 120 grain bullets. About 2900 FPS
In my 6.5X54 Man/Sch I use 160 grain bullets. 2250 Fps
In my 270 Winchesters I use 150 grain bullets (2950 FPS) in 2 of them and 130s in one. The one I shoot 130s in is on it's 3rd barrel, and that barrel shoots 130s into groups 1/2 the size of 150s, so I use 130 grain bullets in that rifle, but only bonded core, partitions and X bullets. It kills deer and antelope just fine with Remington 130 gr, but can be a bit hard on meet at 150 yards and closer. With X bullets it is fine and the meat damage is less. Of all my hunting rifles, this is my fastest, at 3100 to 3140 FPS.
In my 30-30 I use 170 grain flat point (at about 2050 FPS)
In my 308s I shoot mostly 180 grain bullets. About 2500 FPS
In my 30-06s I use 180s and a few 220s (2700 fps and 2500 fps)
My two 300 H&Hs I use 200 and 220 grain bullets. (2850 and 2700 FPS)
In my M1 Garand I use 150 grains so I can use the sights as they are calibrated. (2800 FPS)
My 8X57 uses 170 to 200 grain bullets. (2650 and 2400)
I no longer have any rifles in 338 cal, 348 cal or 358 cal. I have had all of them and killed game with all of them, but I find that I used them less than I was using others so I sold them.
I have used 270 gr and 225 Gr in my 9.3X74R, but I am going to 250 and 286 grains now,(These run at 2650 and 2400) all bonded or Partitions. My experience with the Speer 270 grain was awful, and I am seeing some complaints now about the Hornady 286 grain.
My 375H&H is on it's 2nd barrel. I use both 270 (2680 FPS) and 300 grain bullets,(2550) but mostly 270 grain.
I have sold off all my rifles larger then 375 now. I have not seen them do anything better than my 375H&H in N. America, and I would guess I am not going back to Africa ever.

As you can see, super velocities do not impress me much.

In my time in the military I used a bolt action M40 (Remington 700)and M118 Match ammo with 173 Gr bullets at only 2550 FPS. It was just fine out to 800 yards. At 1000 it was a bit of a problem from time to time and I would have liked something a bit faster, but I still did OK with it. Now that I am not shooting on the tax-payers money and I have to buy my own guns and ammo, I use what I like instead of what I am given.

But as a gunsmith I have made LOTS of super mags for customers. I mean LOTS. I zero all of them, and in most cases I do load work with them too. I know quite a lot about long range shooting and I have done more than my share.

I don't do it anymore. Not on anything living. I can shoot to 500 with no problems at all, and I can do that with some of my "slow" rifles. Game animals are not my enemies and I care about making clean kills and never wounding. I respect the animals I hunt. If they were enemies I could not care less where my bullet hit them, as long as they can't kill me or a friend of mine. Gut shot is fine.

For shots to 500 meters I am fine shooting with anything I use that has a scope on it. I don't shoot at game anymore past 300 with irons. I am a good enough hunter that the self imposed 500 meter limit is really not much of a limit at all. In the last 20 years of hunting all over the western USA I have yet to have a problem getting within 500 of an animal.

I do not care if someone else feels different. I just don't do it myself any more. I have made a lot of kills out past 600, and some well past, but to me it's just not fun. I am man enough to admit there is an element of risk for wounding at long ranges that grows exponentially as the range increases and even when I was at my best, that risk is still there. I see no need to subject game to that.

But that's just me.
Others may do it as they see fit.

Edited by szihn (03/12/16 12:49 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291172 - 01/12/16 02:50 AM

Steve,

The reason I assumed 130/140 gr is you and I had a discussion once on the .270 vs 6.5 and at that time we were comparing various weights at 130-150 gr in both..so, my bad...

The fact is if I go heavy for caliber bullets in the 26 or 28 the velocities will be very similar again to the 270WSM, which by the way, I AM a fan of ..think the 270WSM is the best of the ones Winchester come out with as to the short mag series..with the larger case capacity you can basically shoot a broader range of bullets at a broader range of velociites.. I find no fault in that..

As to distance, I shoot when I can shoot and feel confident in my shot..and make no apologies to anyone for that.. If I can get closer I will, but, if like my last hunt in Kyryzstan, a shot presents it self and conditions are right, I have no issue taking a 534 yard shot across the canyon..all comes with practice and confidence..if others feel they don't have either, I am ok with that as well..each to their own...I am pretty much shit-full of that argument of the "Holier-Than-Thou" crowd..but that is just me..

Back to the original discussion, again, don't care what velocities you shoot at, the Swifts are better bullets, period. Cost more, maybe, but cost is a relative term..at the end of the day, the extra $20 for a "maybe" bullet versus a "for sure" bullet..I will take the latter..

Have a great day...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291187 - 01/12/16 05:59 AM

Well I think we'd probably agree on more then we disagree on. Just as a notation 538 yards is within my 500 meter limit.

I would also concede that the A frames are going to retain more weight then the Nosler Partitions, but I am getting 100% penetration with the Noslers, and I have been doing so since I was 12 years old. In all the years I have shot them I have recovered exactly one. Last year's elk. A 160 gr .277 from the 270 WSM, and it still weighs 129 grains. The 1st shot went clear through and left an exit of about 1-3/8". Not bad in my opinion. Swift makes 150 grain 270s. If I had used one of them and if I had recovered it I doubt it would weight muich more when it stopped. It might. But would that matter?
I know the Barnes X 150 gr would probably weigh more then either the Swift or the Nosler. Most of them retain about 97% of their weight and they still cost less than Swifts and are just as accurate (In the guns I have tested anyway) but again they don't open up much at 500 meters. A frames and expanding solids are at the top of their game when they impact animals at 300 yards and less.

So saying Swifts are "better" is subjective.

Do swifts kill animals within 1-2 seconds?
Yes!

Do they give good wound channels?
Yes!

Do they go clear through?
Yes!

So do the Partitions I have used since 1968.

And I have only 1 time in all those years shot an animal with more then one Partition (last year on my elk, 2 shots, 2 hits)and I have never had an animal get away, and I have never had one stay on it's feet for more then about 2 seconds after hit with one.

So how is the Swift "better"?
I will admit A frames hold more of their weight, but they also do not expand as well at 400 to 500 meters. So that's a trade off.

I would be happy to pay more if I thought I was getting more, but in my experience with the calibers I used, in the years I have used them, the Noslers are batting 1000 with me.

To me, Swifts are simply overpriced. If I were a rich man, and money was no object I would still not use them if I could get Nosler Partitions, Nosler Bonded or Hornady Bonded, or Barnes X bullets.

As I said I believe they are as well made as any bullet on earth, but over the spectrum of velocities I use them at, in the calibers I use, I think they are not quite as good "all around" as what I am using now. I have nothing against Swifts, but I don't think they are fully competitive.

Heck, if someone was to offer me 5,000 bullets of my own choice as a present, for free, and I could choose anything I wanted, I would still go with Nosler for probably 70% of them, and Barnes and Hornady for the last 30%

If I were to hunt larger game than moose there might be other bullets I would buy. But I don't hunt anything much larger than moose, and moose and buffalo are hunted very seldom for me now days. The largest game animals I have killed in the last 20 years were buffalo, and I shot them with handguns and cast bullets.

Next in line for size was moose. 2 with a 375 H&H, one with a 348 Winchester and one with a 62 cal muzzleloader.

One of those moose I shot 2 times with 285 gr Speer Grand Slams. One was shot with a 300 gr Sierra from my 375 (bullet failed)
One with a Hornady 200 gr flat point from my M71 Lever action (stayed in the body but killed the moose) , but only the one killed with the flintlock fell at the shot. The other 3 walked a short distance before falling. And the flintlock also gave me an exit.

I have written in the past that it's wounds that do the killing. Bullets (or arrows, spears and so on) make the wounds.
I stand by that as truth.

Bullet wounds have 2 properties that matter. One is cavitation and one is hydrostatic shock.
The shock effect is most evident when bone or "wet flesh" is hit. Cavatation is most evident when muscle and firm tissue is hit.
It's easy to see when you kill animals with guns that shoot WAY slower then modern magnums.

I have killed quite a lot of game with flintlocks and also with modern revolvers. The kills are quite fast in most cases. Even when velocity is only 1200 FPS.

That moose I mentioned above was killed with a 320 grain ball of hardened lead and the impact velocity was probably only about 1200 FPS, yet the moose hit the ground before the smoke let me see it fall.
That ball didn't do a lot of liquid compression to the moose ("shock") yet it hit the ground before the noise was done echoing.

Most of the bison I have seen killed were killed with big magnum rifles, and yet my 44 magnum and my 454 Casull put them down just about as fast as my friends 416 Rigby and several 338s I have seen used on them. My friend Colin shot one several times with 250 grain bullets from a 338-06 and it stayed on its feet for about 10-15 seconds. My 454 put 2 of them down in about 4-5 seconds. Colin recovered his 338 bullets. My 454s exited.

Does that mean the 370 gr LBT Hard Cast bullet is "better" than the 388 250 grain bullets?
No.

It means it works in a different way.

The 338 has more energy, but that energy was transferred faster and made shorter, larger diameter wounds. The 454 makes woulds about 1" down to 3/4 inch around, but they will go through a beef cow from end to end.

Both made killing wounds.

So saying something is "better" across the board is not always a good statement. If something can be "better" then logically there has to be a best.

But "best' depends on a situation.

That situation has a LOT of variables.
What kind of Animal.
Body Position.
Size.
Mental state of the animal.
Range.
Velocity at impact.
Place of impact.
Bullet construction.
Terminal trajectory within the animal.
Ability of the shooter (which is effected by MANY things, one of which is how much he can practice, as well as his natural abilities)
and probably about 10 other things I didn't list.

So we take our best guess as to what the future hunt will hold in store for us.

In that way I would agree that a bullet that works perfectly at close to mid range is more likely to be needed than one that works perfectly at long range. I can tell you from a lot of personal experience that a so-so bullet at a long range target is not ideal, but it usually works out. A Barnes X at long range makes a narrow hole, but as I just mentioned, so does a 44 mag. Both will kill----- and kill well.
Just maybe not as fast as we'd like.

Bullets that go all to pieces....I don't like them at any range or on any game bigger than 50 pounds.

A so-so bullet at a close range target is the kind of thing that can get you into trouble. On non dangerous game it leads to us tracking down the animal and having it suffer longer than necessary.

On dangerous game.........well that is the stuff of the stories. Not the good stories either.

In this I will concede that Swifts are excellent. When they don't expand well they still are at least as effective as a good broad-head, and history shows us that's pretty good.

But so are expanding copper solids, and in all the guns I own at least, so are "heavy for caliber" Partitions. I have killed game at very long range with them (Much longer than I will shoot now days) and had exits. The exit holes were still coin sized. I love them. And they have not failed me at close range ever.

One last thought.
I love the fact that today we have the option to compare these things. It's like the Super Bowl of bullets. In the 1960s and before, those that shot factory loads didn't have many options, and even handloaders had a lot fewer than we do today.

On a scale of 1-10 it is delightful to be able to try to figure out what bullets are in the 8-10 range, argue the merits of them against each other, ------- and ignore 1-8 all together.

That is a blessing we have today that shooters have never had in history.

Edited by szihn (01/12/16 06:22 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291197 - 01/12/16 07:55 AM

Good read, Steve - thanks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291211 - 01/12/16 12:28 PM

I agree, we do agree on more than we do not.. Which is a good thing...and I enjoy this discussion..

I will try to respond to your litany of issues as they are brought up..however you need to quit moving the goal posts.. You stated earlier you no longer shoot at distances of 500 meters..that your preferred distance is now much closer..not sure what "much means..but lets go down the line..

The partition was and is a good bullet within its limitations..but times and technology changes thus I prefer to take advantage of those progressions.. also agree that dead is dead..so if the bullet is 60% or 90%..if the animal is dead does it really matter?? depends..on what you are shooting and how soon it gets dead..using your example of cape buffalo or dangerous game--

How many cape buffalo have you shot with a partition to give you the knowledge of how it performs on them? I have shot 3 so far.all with a 400 gr A-Frame out of my .416--and if a bullet was recovered they were still over 90% ..all shot at 80 yards or less..knowing what I know, there is NO way a partition would offer the penetration a A-Frame does on a cape buffalo at those distances..they can't..they are too soft..will it still kill, yes..however especially in regards to DG like cape buffalo.. a few extra seconds can mean the difference of having a great meal at the lodge or taking a heli ride to the nearest hospital..THAT IS HOW THE SWIFT IS BETTER...

On one buff hunt, I shot a bull at about 70-80 yards..the 400gr A-Frame blew through the bull, hit another bull on the other side and ended up killing both with one shot. I was hunting with Nixon who had been guiding for nearly 2 decades at that time..he said he had NEVER seen a soft bullet do that ever in his lifetime..not even a partition..

As to not expanding well at 4-500 meters..that is simply not true.. Have you ever picked up or found an A-Frame on an animal hit at those distances? I have..we were hunting deer in AK two years ago..shooting 300RUMS--all 4 of us..and all using 200 gr factory Rem ammo...they stoned every deer we shot out to and slightly over 600 yards..period..as you said, dead is dead...

The Barnes might retain as much ..but it will not provide the slam to the animal the Swift will do,especially on cape buffalo..have been told as much by more than one PH in Africa..

Again, as to cost, we are talking to 2 different audiences regarding this..Do you think someone who just spent $25-50,000 on a hunt in Africa cares even a little if a bullet cost him an extra $20 or %40. Guessing probably not..for those who want to hunt around home it might be different, but not for me..I know how hard they (Swifts) hit, how good they retain their weight and how accurate they are..so again, I don't care if they cost more, to me they are worth every cent..

Three years ago I used 200 gr A-Frames to take my best elk to date..shot him just shy of 400 yards..he dropped as though he was hit by the hammer of Thor..no bullet found..

Shot a cow elk about 6 yrs ago, using 250 A-Frames out of a 338 RUM..hit her in the chest looking at me..the bullet exited under her anus on the other end..again, pretty sure a partition would NOT have given that type of penetration..

Found an article when I googled it, and ironically FIELD AND STREAM had a little write up on the 3 bullets we are discussing..found their information interesting and similar to what we have both said..

http://www.fieldandstream.com/answers/hu...-pick-nosler-pa

Bullet comparison test:
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/ballistics-test-best-300-win-mag-loads-market/

Another explaining the difference..
http://www.chuckhawks.com/swift_hunting_bullets.htm

This court is adjourned...


Thank you

Ripp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291223 - 01/12/16 03:23 PM

Ok back to me.

My self imposed limit is still 500 meters. About 550 yards, and yes I do like to shoot much closer. MUCH closer when I can. As I said, 500 meters is a LIMIT.

But back to the points you make.
They are the same as mine. I have killed no buffalo with ANY A-frames or ANY Noslers. I have however killed some with German made 404 Jeffery ammo. RWS I think they were, (I can't remember now for sure, but I do know they were made in Germany in the late 60s or very early 70s.) That was a long time ago, and I was using what I was given. 400 grain bullets, both soft and solids. Most shots were made at 35 yards or so. I had no problems with any of them.

And I have shot an elk with a 300 grain Partition end to end. Got an exit too. One shot is not what I'd call an exhaustive test, but I can tell you a 375 H&H with a 300 gr Nosler will go end to end through a bull elk. It was hit in the right "butt" and the bullet came out at the center of the neck near the chest.

Last counter point:
I didn't say the Swifts would not expand at 500. I said they will not expand as well as the Partitions at 500, from the guns and calibers I shoot. How do I know? I really DON'T know exactly, but hunting with men that do use the A-frames and seeing the exits on elk and deer at long range, and then comparing them to the exits I am getting from the partitions, I am guessing that the partitions are doing a better job, just because the exits are about 2X larger as a rule.
Again I will "cop to the facts". I can't say I know, but I can say I have evidence to make be believe.

So that means you'd have to have side by side comparisons too Ripp. Same or very similar caliber rifles, same velocity and same bullet weight.

I think we'd need to live a very long time to have definitive info.

I am the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co. In the making of our bullets and testing them I also used other bullets as comparisons for out files. Both rifle and handgun bullets were tested by me. Many thousands of them. Most were shot in lab tests, but many thousands were shot at game all over the world too.

The problem with bullet tests is the same thing I was mentioning in the last post. Variables! LOTS of them.

We have to get into generalities when doing any meaningful comparison. Generally speaking, bullet X, from gun X, at target X, will give X results. But we all know of or have seen when all the Xs gave us a Y, and no one seems to be able to explain it.

I know of a small man (or boy) who was shot 7 times from about 15 yards with 7.62 NATO ammo, all of which went through his chest and he didn't even seem to feel any pain. Ran forward into the lines of the ones doing the shooting, and got past them about 15 feet before he just collapsed. I could not believe that much damage could be absorbed by a small man (maybe 110 pounds) and none hit or traumatized the spine bad enough to drop him. But it happened.
Why?
I have no idea.

His back was all but gone, but he didn't even seem to care.

I have killed buffalo as I said. I personally know several men that have hair raising stories about them. Me.... all I shot just fell down, or fell within a very short time.
I was not killing big bulls as a rule, just meat.
I know that placement is important, but it was very easy at such close ranges and I never saw one that was any harder to kill than cattle were back home. Does that prove anything? I don't know.

I would say it proves that a shot that breaks the neck or hits the brain is deadly and fast.

I personally never shot any buff with anything but the 404. I saw a few killed with FALs and I would say a 147 grain FMJ is a poor choice. Still the men killing them were very good marksmen and would hit them in the brain. A 7.62 NATO from the correct angle will kill buff and I know that to be a fact, because I have seen it about 10 times.

Back to the idea of generalities.
I believe from over 50 years of hunting and shooting that the most important part of the equation is the man. If you have a weapon with limitations you need to work within those limitations. I once killed an elk with a sharp stick. It's called an arrow. I did it only one time, but I did it. Not NEAR as good a weapon as a 270, but I still put that elk in the freezer.

Anyway, I am old ------ and rambling now... so I leave it to you again.


Edited by szihn (03/12/16 12:54 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291276 - 02/12/16 11:13 AM

[quote
Anyway, I am old ------ and rambling now... so I leave it to you again.
(quote)

YOU are not that old..in fact you are, I believe only a couple years older than me..

As to tests..I think the one shown below is about as good as it gets..that and as you suggest, talking to many PH's in Africa and other areas that have used various bullets...

Bullet comparison test:
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/ballistics-test-best-300-win-mag-loads-market/

All the bullets are subjected to the exact same criteria..not based on a manufacturers self promotional bs, bullets are tested at 50 and 400 yards for penetration and weight retention, with the exact same medium for the test..cant get more fair than that...

Personally I feel the Partition was way ahead of its time when it was introduced..not saying its a bad bullet..just not as good as the new Swifts

Technology changes things..I believe in the case of the Swift vs the Partition, Swift has built a better mousetrap, especially in the applications I use it for. The thicker jacket and bonding allows the A-Frame to hold together better and as such they hammer game up to and beyond buffalo. Doesn't matter if the shots are at close range and high velocity or longer range, the penetration is remarkable..with a perfect mushroom and 90+ % weight retention..

So as we are both pretty set on what we want to use, how about you keep using the partition and I will keep using the A-Frame..we can post pics and discuss this all over again???

As to the pointy stick, 2 date I have taken 3 pronghorn antelope, 11 elk and 34 Whitetail...
along with numerous gophers, P-dogs, a few grouse and an occasional rabbit or two...

I haven't been getting out around my home area like I used to..Plan to change that for 2017..I am NOT going anywhere other than were I live during hunting season next year..miss it here..or I might be in Wyoming as I have 20 preference points for both moose and big horn sheep down there...up to this point been buying the points each year..maybe this is the year I should apply..

Any recommendations you might have for area and outfitter would be appreciated..

Have a great day..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (02/12/16 12:07 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291285 - 02/12/16 12:42 PM

I am old
I am 60. Still doing well, but when I had most of my adventures I was in my 20s and very early 30s.
It seems like only yesterday sometimes, but other times it seems like "a story I read in a book" long ago.
If you are 58 --------------- you are old too.
HAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA

I read the article and I think it was very good. In fact about all the info was exactly as I would have guessed. I did notice that the Nosler Partition penetrated 3" DEEPER then the Swift A-Frame at 50 yards, and was 3.5" less in penitration at 200. I knew the 2 would be close.

One thing that I would point out is the they were done with a 300 magnum. I have a 300 H&H but I shoot 200 and 220 grain bullets in it so it's a bit slower then what they are testing.
I would agree that if I were to step up the speeds of my calibers 200 to 400 FPS the Swift would doubtlessly be a bit better mouse trap. I am unconvinced they are better in the guns/ calibers I shoot.

As I said, my fasted gun is a 270 with 130s, and I would shoot 150s and 160 in all my 270s but for the fact that this particular barrel likes the 130s best.

I use that rifle for deer and antelope, and I use my 150 and 160 grain shooters as well as my 30-06 308, 8MM Mauser 9.3X74R and 375 for bigger game. None of the other guns I shoot go much faster than 2900 FPS at the Muzzle, so I have found the partitions are working as designed and advertised. Probably because they were designed for the same parameters I am using.

If I were to get something for big game hunting that shot 3300 to 3600 I might use the A frames myself,(or more Barnes X or Hornady GMXs) but I don't have such a gun and don't desire such a gun, so probably won't be using any Swifts. As I said, I admire them and appreciate them, but they are a "better mouse trap" only for faster guns. 100% success is very hard to beat, which is what I have had with the Partitions now since 1968.

But I can say this to you.....lets do what you said........."we can post pics and discuss this all over again" so we'll both have to hunt and kill a LOT more game, over a LOT more years, and compare wound channels and detail for the 2 types of bullets.

That means we are both going to have to become VERY old men and have a LOT of fun getting that way.
Tough job, but someone has to do it..................


Oh, one more thing-- I may be able to help you with info if you get a sheep tag or moose tag.
If you do get a tag let me know. Depending on where you are going to hunt, I may have some info, or contacts, that would be helpful.

Edited by szihn (02/12/16 12:45 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291287 - 02/12/16 01:19 PM

[
I read the article and I think it was very good. In fact about all the info was exactly as I would have guessed. I did notice that the Nosler Partition penetrated 3" DEEPER then the Swift A-Frame at 50 yards, and was 3.5" less in penitration at 200. I knew the 2 would be close.-(quote)

***

Did you also notice the weight retention was 98% for the A-Frame and 68% for the Partition???
As to the second target, its actually 400 yards not 200...My thoughts are, even if you shoot a slower rifle, the velocities and retention should show how the respective bullets would perform at those reduced velocities...

As to old, if you think you are old, you may very well be..if you keep fit, work out a bunch and keep your head in the game, 60 is not old..hell I went mtn biking this fall with a guy that was 80...and he was kicking butt...

Every physician and study I see, being active and engaging means a ton to being young...Not to sound like a whatever, but I still do Jiu-jitsu/Muay Thai training at least 4 days a week along with lifting weights at least 4..The young crowd--30-45 have a very hard time when we roll in Jiu-jitsu..which makes me feel very proud for "staying in the game"... I plan to do a bunch more mtn hunting around the planet..the ONLY WAY I will be able to do this is if I keep doing what I am doing or more....

Good debate Steve..thank you for humoring me..appreciate it

Happy Holidays

Art

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291291 - 02/12/16 02:06 PM

"Did you also notice the weight retention was 98% for the A-Frame and 68% for the Partition???"
Yup.
And that would help.............how?
If the Nosler makes a hole clear through, it would not matter if it was a bit lighter.

Bullets holes kill, not bullets. I have 2 friends that have bullets in them right now, and have had them in their bodies since the Vietnam war. The bullet holes didn't get the job done.

And yes Ripp you are absolutely right about staying in shape. Old and unfit are not the same.

I am never going to be in the shape I was at 25 again, but I am still out climbing many of my young finds in their 20s. I tell them "you going to let this old bald man kick your ass -----again?"

When they catch their breath they usually say yes.
I do not delude myself into thinking I will be young forever, but I will promise you, I am going to do young-mans-things a lot longer than most other men of my age. I played rough when I was young and some of those old adventures are coming back to haunt me some, but I will not let them beat me yet. Some day I will run out of hours, but that's up to God. Until that time I will enjoy the life God gave me and do as much good as I can for as many people as I can and enjoy every hour I can. I have had 33 bone breaks and 4 wounds in my life, and I am still here. I figure God has more for me to do. Giving up is the same as surrender. I don't denounce those of my age (and younger) that give up, but it's not in my makeup. I have to live in this body until I die. (give THAT some thought) I should take care of it.

When I was in the Marine Corps I served with an Old Salt, a CWO 4, who was still in the Corps at 64 years old. He was a WW2 vet who landed on the first wave at Guadalcanal. He could still do a 1st class USMC P.F.T. (Physical Fitness Test) at that age, and he had been given wavers to extend his enlistment 3 times.

A USMC PFT is not easy, and only 9% of the Marine Corps could come in at 1st class. Most come in at 2nd class and the bottom 28% come in at 3rd class. He was one of them in the 9%, and he could do it at 64 years old.

At 64 they finally discharged him. 3 wavers was all they would give him. WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Combat tours too, no admin assignments for him in any of the 3 wars.

This was a VERY tough old man and not anyone a punk should pick on. That would be a VERY bad choice in the "victim selection process".

I admired him very much. He told me something I have lived by all my life.

He said " Sargent Zihn, you'll find it a lot easier to keep it than it is to get it back"

He was talking about staying in shape. He was 100% correct.

So when I say I am now old I mean it, but it may be as much a boast as it is a statement of fact.
Ask my collage age friends.


Edited by szihn (03/12/16 12:58 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291312 - 03/12/16 02:14 AM

Quote:

"Did you also notice the weight retention was 98% for the A-Frame and 68% for the Partition???"
Yup.
And that would help.............how?
If the Nosler makes a hole clear through, it would not matter if it was a bit lighter.

Bullets holes kill, not bullets. I have 2 friends that have bullets in them right now, and have had them in their bodies since the Vietnam war. The bullet holes didn't get the job done.




++++
First--you seem to want to show all the positives for the outdated partition but none of the negatives of it..this isn't a CNN forum..

As to your other comment on retention, what about on the ones that doesn't go clear through???..ie; cape buffalo, you don't think a bullet that holds together will hit harder than one that breaks apart..transfer of energy..really?? Come on you can't actually believe that..

Here is a deal, you hit me as hard as you can with an open hand and I will hit you as hard as I can with a solid fist..I will wager you any amount of money you want, I will get up sooner than you..THAT is the difference..

I don't agree in any way shape or form with any of what you said above..including the hole doesn't kill..if I throw a knife through your liver..pretty sure that hole will have an effect on you...placement is still important, but HOLES do matter..just like black lives..

Ripp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291319 - 03/12/16 04:09 AM

All true.
But I am not hunting Buffalo anymore. I am hunting elk. That's the point I made several posts ago.


You point out the facts reported in that magazine article and I don't disagree with any of them, but I point out to you that in that very article the close range test shows the Partition beat the A-fame. In long range testing the A-frame beat the Nosler. I have no problem with any of that.

But I am not shooting a 300 Win Mag with 180 grain bullets. Or any of the super mags either. I wonder how the testing would have gone with a bit slower gun, 300 H&H or 30-06 shooting 200 or 220 grain bullets. Or the same test with the same bullets, but being shot from a 308 Winchester. Neither you or I know those things as of this moment do we?

What I do know is that my 300 H&H (Old M70) had done very well on elk with 200 and 220 grain Partition out to about 450 yards and killed them DRT leaving good size exits. Theory is good, but the fact is the 300 H&H is doing perfectly, and I can't really get any better than 100%. I now have another 300 H&H I made for myself on a Mauser with a 27" barrel. I am sure the same loads with 200 and 220 grain bullets will work just as well from it.

I do know what a 308 will do with 150 Gr Winchester Power Points because last year my wife and a friend killed 2 elk with them at about 300 and 400 yards. I was pleasantly surprised that they worked far better then I expected.

For the game I am hunting and from the guns/calibers I am hunting with, the Partitions are working as well or better than the A-frames that I have seen customers and friends shoot. I personally have not used A-frames for the reasons I stated in the previous posts, but I have seen them used by a few other hunters. I can't say in honesty that I have seen they work any better than the partitions, and in a few cases, like the shots at longer range, they don't work as well ON ELK.

I am sure they would do better on Bison or Buffalo, but I would probably be using a bigger gun on them anyway.

I am not married to Nosler Partitions. I have no loyalty pledge to them. I use them many times with 100% success so far, but I am willing to try other bullets too. As you can see from this very thread. I killed my elk this year with 8MM Hornady SSTs.

I still like to learn when I can, and as a custom gunsmith, it's good for me to have real world knowledge of various bullets on game at various velocities. I think it's a fascinating subject.

I am very interested in trying many of the new bonded bullets that are out today too, and I hope I live long enough to have a LOT of things to say about them someday too.

The reason I like Nosler Partition is that in my years of hunting I have yet to have one fail me.

I agree that if I were to shoot a faster rifle the Barnes or Swift would probably be better.

But I am not shooting faster guns!

I am shooting guns and calibers most of which were "new" in the 1920s and some were "new" in the late 1800s. The Partitions were the best thing going for such calibers when John Nosler brought them out in the late 1940s. From experience (A LOT OF IT) I have to say I have yet to see that has changed for such guns and calibers.

For the fastest of the new Super-magnums I have no doubt the X bullets and the A frames ARE better overall, but I don't shoot those, and I don't really like them much. My tastes run more toward the classics. I hunt for the fun and for the meat. If I have more fun hunting with a classic rifle which is old fashioned (like maybe even my flintlocks) there is no harm in that, and no one should feel slighted by it. I don't care what others use. If I am asked I will tell them what I know, I will tell them what I believe and why I believe it, and I will tell them what I just don't know yet.

The human being is plagued with a condition physiologists call "cognitive dissonance". One of the points of this phenomenon is that people will defend what they are invested in, because the investment causes them to feel a need to be "right" in their mind. We see it in the media and among liberals all the time.

Defending your investment is a good thing in principal, but not always in practice.

Years ago "Nebraska Man" was all the rage in the study of archeology. It was of enough interest to some in the collage systems that many grad school students wrote their thesis's on the study of this new find, and waxed on and on about all they could learn from "Nebraska Man", and how important it was to the field of study. Some of these students went on to be awarded PHDs and doctorates in the study of archeology.

But with the advent of Gas Chromatography the fossils of "Nebraska Man" were found to be from a pig.

How interesting that the "doctors' were not made into "non-doctors" ----- and many tried for 20 years after to defend their conclusions from collage.

See, those men and women invested years of time and thousands of dollars into their field of study. They were "educated" and would tell you so at every opportunity. So they just could NOT be wrong.

But they were.

It didn't make them immoral, illegal, unethical ------ or even fat.
They were just wrong. (welcome to the human race huh?)


But its interesting to see how people will defend their position even in the face of opposing facts.

People are far more likely to defend something that costs them more time or money than they are to defend something that costs less time or money. That's how cognitive dissonance works. It is disarmed and become less of a lever on us when we know what it is and how it works. Humility is the best weapon against it, which is why liberals don't ever see how it's bending them.

Black Lives do matter, but no more than any human life in the eyes of God. Say that on TV and you somehow become a racist because cognitive dissonance is controlling liberal emotions.

I really like and trust Nosler Partitions because they have been 100% effective for me so far. I know of some men that have had different experience with them, and all I can recall were driving them faster than I do.

So I don't think they are the only bullet on earth. I do use others and I report what I find, good, mediocre or bad. I did it when I started this very thread. As you said, this is not CNN. I am not a "liberal".

I am a Christian. I didn't want to be a Christian when I was younger because the faith demanded I look at truth and see myself in light of that truth. I didn't like all of what I saw. So I tried to ignore it for several years. Cognitive dissonance held some sway with me.

But when we get honest with ourselves, then, and only then, can become honest with God.

I now try to live my life in all ways by that foundational principal. It means I can acknowledge that all I like may not be good, and some of what I don't like may be good. I am under obligation to embrace what's good and my likes and dislikes have to be in 2nd pace to the truth. It covers my life and filters down from things like politics and faith to work, charging for my labor, to the helping of others and even what products I buy, recommend, and why.

I am as patriotic as any man you will ever meet, but when I see something my government is doing wrong I am quick to condemn it, and speak openly about it. I love the idea of "Be American and Buy American" as long as an American product is (A) available and (B) of equal or better quality compared to an import.
But I do not think being self-deceived and buying an inferior American Made Product is the right thing to do if an import is better quality. If "Buying American" is supporting a communist based Labor Union that is largely controlled by the Chines or Russians it may be better for my own country to buy the import and give an American the motivation to compete with the Lib/Comm-controlled Unions. Life is not allways that simple and even in my best efforts I am sure I make mistakes..

Why this rant?
Because I am trying my best with my somewhat limited abilities as a writer, to point out that I am NOT "married" to any product, (Nosler included) but I am married to a principal. That principal being that truth and facts should drive our choices, not emotions, not investments, and not unguided loyalties.

That is the basis of Biblical truth and it is also the foundation of Constitutional Law inculcated into our Bill of Rights. It should become part of who we are at every level. It's OK to disagree, but its dangerous to disagree with someone just because you don't like the facts they point out.

That said, I would agree that A-frames may be better for buffalo, but for elk I don't think so.
Your mileage may vary.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: szihn]
      #291327 - 03/12/16 05:55 AM

Sure Steve, you don't have a problem as long as it agrees with what you perceive to be accurate. You have pointed out twice now that the partition beat the A-frame--which is only partially true..the A-Frame smoked the partition by 50% more retention..you seem to not want to mention that little fact..plus that the A-Frame beat the partition by a similar amount in the other distance..another item not mentioned in the last post..sorry this isn't CNN ..all the facts please not just the ones you agree with ..

Secondly, as I stated in previous posts, you keep moving the goal post in an attempt to make it suit your beliefs on the comparison..you move distance, game or whatever it is that needs to be moved to make your point..

You freely admit you have never used an A-Frame but yet seem to want to comdemn them for cost and or effectiveness without ever even having used them...

I am fully aware of the history of the partition. ..I have used them in the past..which is why I don't use them today...

At this point in this thread, I am done..and don't have time to read all you are posting..was on the road for work yesterday and back in today to catch up..this, for me, is starting to become very monotonous ..sorry.... My God, this post has been beat to death ..Let it go.. Obviously you are not changing my mind and I am not yours..at this juncture some of the arguments are just a little over the top....

Best of luck to you..

I actually do have a day job that requires some focus on my part.. Perhaps that is why I don't mind paying the extra for the A-Frames..

Over and out..

Ripp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: American .323" bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #291333 - 03/12/16 07:21 AM

Sure Steve, you don't have a problem as long as it agrees with what you perceive to be accurate. You have pointed out twice now that the partition beat the A-frame--which is only partially true..the A-Frame smoked the partition by 50% more retention..you seem to not want to mention that little fact..plus that the A-Frame beat the partition by a similar amount in the other distance..another item not mentioned in the last post..sorry this isn't CNN ..all the facts please not just the ones you agree with ..

Nope. here are copies of what I wrote.
And that would help.............how?
If the Nosler makes a hole clear through, it would not matter if it was a bit lighter.

Secondly, as I stated in previous posts, you keep moving the goal post in an attempt to make it suit your beliefs on the comparison..you move distance, game or whatever it is that needs to be moved to make your point..

Nope. If so, please copy and past my words so I and all the readers can see. Here is what I wrote.

In my time in the military I used a bolt action M40 (Remington 700)and M118 Match ammo with 173 Gr bullets at only 2550 FPS. It was just fine out to 800 yards. At 1000 it was a bit of a problem from time to time and I would have liked something a bit faster, but I still did OK with it. Now that I am not shooting on the tax-payers money and I have to buy my own guns and ammo, I use what I like instead of what I am given.[color/]

For shots to 500 meters I am fine shooting with anything I use that has a scope on it. I don't shoot at game anymore past 300 with irons. I am a good enough hunter that the self imposed 500 meter limit is really not much of a limit at all. In the last 20 years of hunting all over the western USA I have yet to have a problem getting within 500 of an animal.
Please copy and paste something where I wrote that I am now shooting farther.

You freely admit you have never used an A-Frame but yet seem to want to comdemn them for cost and or effectiveness without ever even having used them...sorry you cant have it both ways ..
Ripp, I have never killed anything with one, but I have seen about 10 animals kill with them by other hunters . They were very good, just not the best I have seen, and I said so in the text. Go look.
Here again is a copy of what I wrote.

I am sure they would do better on Bison or Buffalo

To me, Swifts are simply overpriced. If I were a rich man, and money was no object I would still not use them if I could get Nosler Partitions, Nosler Bonded or Hornady Bonded, or Barnes X bullets.

I do not care if someone else feels different. I just don't do it myself any more.

I would agree that A-frames may be better for buffalo, but for elk I don't think so.
Your mileage may vary.


Ripp, please point out the condemnation in the words above, or in any of my words I have written in this thread.





I am fully aware of the history of the partition and mostly everything else you have mentioned..which is why I don't use it..[color:]

OK with me and with every reader here I am sure.

At this point in this thread, I am done..and don't have time to read all you are posting..was on the road for work yesterday and back in today to catch up..and it is starting to become very monotonous to me..sorry.... My God, this post has been beat to death ..Let it go..

OK

you are not changing my mind and apparently I am not yours..

And why does that matter to you?

and frankly some of the arguments now are just a little over the top....

Then let other readers show me where they are, Or you can------ by coping and pasting.

But if you are not into CNNs smear tactics do it! Instead of calming you can.
My words are all written down. Show us where I did any of these things. Show us all.


Edited by szihn (03/12/16 07:36 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)



Extra information
1 registered and 67 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  NitroX 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 17621

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved