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neverguided
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Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm...
      #228800 - 16/04/13 12:16 AM

Hi guys, I recently picked up a Haenel Model 1900 in 9x57mm, pre-1912 and indicated for a 2.9 g. powder charge. Does anyone know what bullet weight the sights are likely regulated for (using the powder charge as an indication), and/or what the typical loading was in this 1900-1912 period? Also, is this particular model typically a 0.354" or 0.356" bore? Thanks!

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lancaster
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: neverguided]
      #228805 - 16/04/13 01:09 AM

hello

common bullet weight's were 16 and 18,2 gramm for the 9x57, here you see some examples

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=217746&an=0&page=0#Post217746

this is the factory ballistic in my 1935 DWM catalog



and this is the 1956 DWM catalog when only the the 16 gramm load was available




because of the long and serpentine history of the Haenel rifle's we put them under Mannlicher Schönauer's most time but please dont worry about. please make some pics so we can see what you have. barrel diameter can be everything between .354 and .358 only sluging the damned thing will tell. whatever the barrel is the rifle was shot in the past with .358 bullets and survive!
there is no problem to load them with .357 mag bullets and I got perfect work in my M 88 with the 180 grains Rem Hollow Point.

--------------------
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/04/13 03:40 AM)


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neverguided
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: lancaster]
      #228828 - 16/04/13 07:08 AM

Thank you very much for this information.

So it would appear that continental loads were 16.0 g. (247 grs.) and 18.2 g. (281 grs.), and the UK Kynoch load was 245 grs.

It seems from your link (great post by the way) that the 16 g. load generally used a +/- 3.0 g. powder charge, whereas the 18.2 g. used a +/- 2.5 g. powder charge. Would it be safe to assume that this rifle (marked 2.9 g.) was therefore likely regulated for the 16 g. loading?

I am out in-the-field and away from home, but can take and post photographs at a later date. I will also slug the bore just to be certain, before ordering a run of custom bullets.

Thanks again.


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lancaster
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: neverguided]
      #228882 - 17/04/13 01:44 AM

possible but we dont realy know

just try the .35 Speer Spitzer SP with 16,2 gramm

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=118

here is a Vithavouri load with this bullet for the 9x57R but rimmed and rimless 9mm are the same





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: lancaster]
      #228887 - 17/04/13 02:58 AM

Quote:

here is a Vithavouri load with this bullet for the 9x57R but rimmed and rimless 9mm are the same


What Vithavouri ? It is VIHTAVUORI! (as long as it still exists...the owners (= french businessmen) are going to stop making gun powder in Finland and shut the factory)

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lancaster
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: Igorrock]
      #228889 - 17/04/13 03:34 AM

not the first time that you catch me with orthographic mistakes about this gunpowder maker igorrock but when this is the end I dont need to learn it anymore


no, not realy funny!
is there no hope for us? for me it would be the disaster of the century see no replacement for N 140 and N 110 on the market.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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neverguided
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: lancaster]
      #228891 - 17/04/13 03:55 AM

Thanks again for the information. And don't worry Lancaster, I knew exactly what powder you were referring to...Veetavooree. Thanks guys!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: neverguided]
      #228923 - 17/04/13 02:56 PM

Here's some extracts of what I wrote for New Zealand Guns and Hunting magazine some years ago about a 9x57 I then owned:

The classic load for this rifle, and the one that made it’s reputation, is a British Kynoch 245-grain bullet, (soft or solid, but always round-nosed), sent off at 2,150 feet per second. German ammo was more typically a 230-grain bullet traveling at 2,370 ft.p.s. for a muzzle energy of 2,860 ft/pds.

A close examination of the subject rifle showed it was a Mauser Model 98 action which had been reworked by Berlin Gunsmith Max G. Fischer. Gun Digest of both 1975 and 1955 has comprehensive lists of German proof marks. These show that the numbers 118.35 mean that this rifle was the 118th firearm proofed in 1935, so that’s the approximate year of manufacture. The markings on the receiver are also decoded: “2/8g GBP” means the rifle was proofed with 2.8 grains of Gewehr Blattchen Pulver or Rifle Flake Powder. “St. M. G.” means it’s suitable for Stahl Mantel Geschoss or Steel Jacketed Bullets. A crown over “N” means it’s nitro proved. Most German sporting rifles of this era have similar marks.

Getting these old metric rounds shooting usually starts with finding appropriate sized bullets. Often the barrel diameter is marked on the underside of the barrel, or the caliber on the side. Not so this rifle. There is nothing to indicate the caliber anywhere ! However, it was sold as a 9x57. This immediately creates problems as a 9mm is .356” whereas the nearest rifle size bullets available to kiwi reloaders are .358”. Using the larger bullet would create pressure problems which is not the smart thing to do with a 70-year-old rifle. However many of these older European barrels were under or oversize, with a 9mm being .354, .356 or .358”. The wise thing to do is to have a chamber casting made by an experienced gunsmith to find out what you’ve got. Another method is to take a slightly oversize soft lead slug, (I used a .38 caliber wadcutter bullet), and drive it down the barrel with a cleaning rod well wrapped with electrical tape to center it in the bore. I did the latter and a pair of slugs both popped out .358”. Just to be really sure I had a chamber cast done as well; the result being .358 ½”. Lucky me!

Interestingly a Mauser factory chart from 1925 shows that the normal 9x57 barrel grooves should be 9.08mm +0.05, (.358”). Of course, there’s no guarantee that Mauser actually supplied the barrel to Herr Fischer. This barrel does have German proof marks and, least anyone take such things for granted, a similar 9x57 rifle I sold for a widow had a Mauser action, a Belgian barrel and a famous English maker’s name.

If you have an undersized bore, you can look at swaging bullets to fit. A US company called “Z-Hat” seemed to me to offer the best deal in terms of a suitable swaging die. Their maker, Fred Zeglin wrote to me in 2000 that: “The ring die sells for US$65 for one caliber. Additional rings are US$9.50 each if you want to add other calibers lately”, (see http://www.z-hat.com ). Or you can put your .358” bullets on a centreless grinder. Or you could import correctly sized bullets from the USA. Or you could use a Lyman mould, (Barnes lists a 245 grain Lyman mould – 358318 GC), to make a suitable lead bullet.


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Dresden
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #229419 - 29/04/13 08:34 PM

I bought a .356 Lee sizer die

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/

Hawk Bullets will also resize their 358 bullets for you


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kuduae
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: Dresden]
      #229442 - 30/04/13 03:21 AM

Kiwi bloke, sorry, but your interpretations of the proofmarks is wrong. Your Max G.Fischer rifle is much older than you think. Quote:" These show that the numbers 118.35 mean that this rifle was the 118th firearm proofed in 1935, so that’s the approximate year of manufacture." Wrong! Such a proof date system was never used in Germany, but in Austria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia only. German proofhouses always stamped the numbers for the month, of course never exceeding "12", and the last two digits for the year. So a German rifle proofed in early 1935 would show something like "2.35". The Zella-Mehlis proofhouse most often added a ledger number for that month, always below the date.
"118.35" is instead a gauge number of the 1891 German proof tables, stamped at the proofhouse. It stood for the bore or land, not groove, diameter of the barrel. It means a 118.35 gauge = 8.64mm = .340" cylindrical plug passed the bore, while the next number 108.49 = 8.89 mm = .350" one did not. These old gauge numbers were used from 1893 to 1911 in Zella-Mehlis, 1912 in Suhl, as was the load designation with 2.8 gramm = 43.2 grain GBlP and StMG. From 1912 on the bullet type and weight was given, not the powder charge. The bore diameter was stamped then as a mm plug measurement, in 1935 it would read "8.8mm". So your rifle was built and proofed before 1912. Your rifle is not 70 years, but more than 100 years old.
As at that time, before WW1, there were no "Surplus ex-military M98 Mausers" and the Mauser patents were still valid, everyone wanting to build a M98 actioned rifle had first to buy in an action only from the Mauser, Oberndorf factory. So your rifle was most likely built by or for Fischer on an original commercial Mauser action. Mauser up to 1914 sold about two thirds of their commercial production as actions to other gunmakers like Rigby, Holland &Holland, Jeffery, Sauer & Sohn, Schüler and you name them. Thanks to Jon Speed these Mauser commercial actions are easily identified and dated by the hidden Mauser serial number. Mauser stamped their serial number under the receiver ring, behind the recoil lug, and on the rear wall of the magazine.
Max G. Fischer was born in 1861. In 1892 he opened his shop at Prinz-Albrecht-Str.1, Berlin SW11, later moved to Kochstr.2, Berlin SW68. He was still alive in 1941, before WW2 hit Berlin.


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kuduae
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: kuduae]
      #229444 - 30/04/13 04:38 AM

neverguided: "Would it be safe to assume that this rifle (marked 2.9 g.) was therefore likely regulated for the 16 g. loading?"
Yes, I agree. The 2.9 gramm load points to the 16g = 247gr bullet. This should be fine with you, as 250 gr .358" bullets are easily available from Speer and Hornady, while 280 grainers would be an expensive, custom item. Don't be too worried about exact bullet diameter, this is not so critical as some experts make you believe. All the 9x57 and 9x57R barrels I know, about a dozen, happily digest .358" 250gr bullets in front of 47gr VV N140.
A friend bought a Haenel 1900 at a gunshow some years ago. The seller warned him: "It is a 8x57I, so don't shoot 8x57IS cartridges!" So I loaded some cartridges with .318" bullets for him. He came back from the range completely diappointed as he could not hit anything. Well, he couls as well have shot 8x57IS loads with similar results, as the rifle was a 9x57. With the load mentioned above it is a fine,accurate shooter.

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neverguided
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: kuduae]
      #229781 - 07/05/13 12:47 AM

Kuduae, thanks for your reply on the topic. It made sense to me that the powder charge might indeed reflect a particular bullet weight. And thank you for the load data as well.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: neverguided]
      #229861 - 09/05/13 04:53 PM

I sold my Max Fischer 9x57 in 2007 so I can't recall exactly if I had a copy then of Gun Digest 1975, that I picked up at a gun show around-a-bout that time, that has an article on German proof marks. As you quite rightly point out Kuduae, the mark 118.35 is on page 193 listed with other gauge diameters being, in this case, 8,64mm, (proof law of 1891). As you say, it must therefore date before 1911-12, at latest, so that would explain the rifle's styling which seemed more of that era than later, for instance, it explains the stock side-panels.

You mention that; "Mauser stamped their serial number under the receiver ring, behind the recoil lug, and on the rear wall of the magazine". I'll suggest the present owner have a look when I forward him your information.

The Landlicht 4 x 81 scope fitted, (Dr. Walter Gerard / Landlicht AG, Germany), had the serial number: Nr 00378. It must have been quite an early one. The 1.066” dia. tube and 1.602” dia. objective were secured in place by Akah tunnel mounts but they did not split, like modern rings. There were screws on the rings, but only to allow the rings to move apart slightly. The scope would have had to be stripped down to get the rear mount off, for instance, to re-blue it.

Many thanks for your help.


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neverguided
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #233121 - 30/07/13 12:48 AM

As a follow-up, I finally got around to slugging the bore, and was surprised to come up with a 0.353" groove diameter. Looks like I'll be taking the custom route, as Hawk offers bullets in 0.353".

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neverguided
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Re: Correct bullet weight for Haenel 9x57mm... [Re: neverguided]
      #233243 - 31/07/13 09:24 AM

Kuduae et al:

It seems that the ca. 1930s velocity for the 16 g. bullet was in the neighborhood of 700 to 705 m/s. Are you in possession of any catalogs from the 1900 to 1912 era that would indicate the velocity of this 16 g. (247 gr.) load during this time period? Thanks!


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