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GK
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Loc: Adelaide
Lightest 98 Mauser action?
      #158891 - 13/04/10 08:18 PM

I'm sure this has asked many times before but what are some of the most common lighter weight choices of M98 actions in 8x57 or 30/06.

I get overwhelmed with the amount of info on mausers.

From what I have seen so far the Mexican mausers seem to be the lightest apart from VZ33 and G33/40 but none of these are going to be easy to source in Australia?

How does a Springfield M1903 or M1903/A3 compare for weight/

George


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DarylS
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #158906 - 14/04/10 03:09 AM

Pretty difficult to lighten a Mauser action itself, without impinging upon it's strength. going to a perferated mag box, along with pot-metal bottom metal or plastic, would be the only strength saveing methods I'd use. I really don't mind packing an 8 1/2 to 10 pound rifle (inc. scope), so I don't lighten anything.

A lighter action for an 8x57 would be a model 94 or 96.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: DarylS]
      #158915 - 14/04/10 06:25 AM

There are a number of custom gunmakers who make lightweight Mauser actions but they won't be cheap. Brian Harre in New Zealand, Dumoulin in Belgium and Satterlee (he's had some problems with deliveries) in the USA make Titanium Mauser actions. Reimer Johannsen in Germany can supply you with a steel small ring action. And there may be others in the future from what I'm hearing.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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TilleyMan
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #158918 - 14/04/10 06:44 AM

George

I'd have to say a Brno ZKK 600 would be a contender for a lightweight Mauser action in the calibres you mention.

Essentially a small ring size receiver with additional lightening cuts on the LHS and a counter drilled bolt handle.

My Brno ZG47 (a true large ring sized receiver) in .270 is significantly heavier than my Brno ZKK 600 in the same calibre for example.

Cheers

TM


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pjaln
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #158919 - 14/04/10 07:10 AM

aluminum bottom metal,, cogswell was famous for this....paul

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Grenadier
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #158923 - 14/04/10 09:09 AM

Just for fun:

Lightest Mauser

Lightest 1903

--------------------
~


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TilleyMan
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Grenadier]
      #158932 - 14/04/10 12:09 PM

That's one hell of a big micrometer

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Rolf
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #158948 - 14/04/10 08:30 PM

Hello George,

in Bavaria/Deggendorf there is a gunmaker famous for light mountain rifles on the basis of Mauser 98 (old and new systems). Here the homepage: http://www.kesslerin.info/

As a friend of mine has one of these rifles in 270 Win. The magazine box is reduced in height for loading only three cartridges, so the weight is also reduced due to the adjusted height of the stock.
In mountain hunting of chamois there seems no need for more than two cartriges, I was told.

best regards
Rolf


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GK
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #158949 - 14/04/10 08:30 PM

I forgot to mention that I need to have an action with charger guides for stipper clips.

I seriously considered a ZKK 600 but decided I wanted the charger guides.

I even found one in 30/06 and would believe that this one was also missing the pop up peep. I considered myself very lucky last time so I don't think I'd ever find another peep sight.

George


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Paul
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #158962 - 15/04/10 12:59 AM

GK, I have lightened FN .30/06 Mausers by Swiss-chessing the magazine, fining down the stock and hollowing out the butt a bit. Light barrels are the main way to save weight, of course, and free-floating them would remove some more wood. Light weight can be punishing on the range, though, unless you use some recoil mitigation. I once fired an L57 Sako .308 with more felt-recoil than my 338 Finnbear.

Some company (Zastava?) has made a mini Mauser for the .222 head size. I wonder if such an action could be made up into 6.5x54 MS, which has an intermediate diameter? It might be analogous with going up to a magnum and could be difficult if not dangerous. Small-ring Mausers for larger calibres would lack some strength, too, but would have your stripper-clip guides.

In any case, if you get something light and take it hunting, be careful not to shoot anything big - it will weigh so much more than the rifle that you'll have to revise your concerns while carrying out the beast.

- Paul


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GK
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Paul]
      #159042 - 16/04/10 07:52 AM

Hi Paul,
What sort of weight did you get your FN 30/06 down to after modifying?
Regards
George


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #159051 - 16/04/10 11:21 AM

The G33/40 was made to be light for the paratroopers. It is a small ring action with metal cut away. They are sought after for nice sporting rifles.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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John303
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: CptCurl]
      #159057 - 16/04/10 11:53 AM

I have an 8x57 made on a 98a by Geco, a small ring, standard lenght mauser and likely the for-runner to the G33/40. Don't forget the 21H Brno is another option. FWIW --- John303.

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Peconga
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: John303]
      #159201 - 19/04/10 06:05 PM

Due to overall cartridge length, it would be very tough to squeeze a .30-06 into a Mexican Mauser 98 action (either the Model 1910 or Model 1934), which is actually an "Intermediate" length with a small ring and small barrel shank. For anything up to an 8x57, the Mexican would have the lightest "starting weight" of any standard Mauser 98 before additional lightening measures. Otherwise, the G33/40, Brno 21H/22F, or a Husqvarna HVA action are all standard length actions with small ring and small shank, and would be next lightest starting point. All would be suitable for a .30-06, and have been frequently built in that caliber. In addition, most of the Husqvarnas came from the factory with an aluminum triggerguard with hinged floorplate, which saves a few extra ounces, and the design also has a very tidy bolt release. The G33/40 on the other hand, has additional lightening cuts on the sides of the action, and even came with a hollow bolt knob for extra weight savings (although it is frequently replaced during customization). However, the commercial Husqvarna HVA did not come with a stripper clip slots, which leaves it out of consideration if that is a factor (rapid reloads for charging herds of... something?)

However, once you have a decently light action (any of the above will do), most of the potential "practical" weight savings will come from the barrel profile, stock design, and scope set-up. Even if you choose a wood or laminate stock (not synthetic) with an appropriately slender profile, additional weight can saved by hollowing excess wood under the buttplate, and inletting additional hollows inside the barrel channel (like some military stocks). Also keep in mind that not all walnut is the same density; Claro is generally less dense than English, and a plain grade stock with straight grain is generally less dense than one with a lot of burl or figure. Again, we're only talking a few ounces, but those ounces add up.

Another place to save weight is in the choice of scope bases, rings, and the scope itself. It always amazes me to see a custom lightweight rifle or carbine burdened down with a huge variable power scope, clamped in a set of chunky steel rings, sitting on an equally massive set of bases (or worse yet, a one-piece steel base). This is another area where a little homework can save a lot of weight, for little or no extra cost.

As for the Springfield 1903 action, although it is technically a small ring design, in issue form I believe it is comparable to a large ring Mauser 98 in weight. The 1903 receiver has some extra protrusions in various places, as well as a hefty upper tang and chunky cocking piece that add unnecessary weight. Although it is a natural choice for building a .30-06, it wouldn't be my first choice for a lightweight custom.

Although often overlooked, the Swedish Mauser 96 action also makes a fine lightweight rifle, especially if you stick with traditional cartridges (6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, etc) and stay away from high-intensity cartridges (.308 Win, short magnums, etc). However, the Swede has a cock on closing design (instead of cock on opening, like Mauser 98s) which some people do not like in a sporting rifle. Although it can be converted to cock on opening, it is just another thing to deal with during the conversion. Personally, I would look for a later commercial Husqvarna version of the Model 96 (known as the Model 46) if I were going to build one, since it still retains the stripper clip slot on top, but does not have the thumb slot on the left side of the receiver found on the military rifles or pre-war sporters.

Like John303, I also have some historic sporting rifles in 8x57, built on the WW1 era Kar98 action (aka 98a). It was a standard length, small ring action with a large barrel shank, and would be another option to consider. Although dimensionally identical to the G33/40, it is generally not considered as strong as the G33/40, since the receiver walls around the barrel on the Kar98 are not as thick. The Kar98 / 98a is sometimes referred to as the Erfurt or Danzig carbine, after the two arsenals where they were made. Although probably not the first choice, they may be more common in your part of the world and therefore more affordable, and would also make a fine lightweight in a traditional cartridge.

--------------------
Peconga in Arizona USA


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tophet1
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Peconga]
      #159239 - 20/04/10 04:28 PM

What calibre will it be chambered in ? Think of the Portuguese Vergueiro small ring actions. They have a split bridge but make up into nice light rifles. They were made by DWM and metal is superb. They started in 6.5x58 but most were safely re-chambered to 8x57.

AFRO408 has two with matching numbered bolts and actions but you will need custom bottom metal. I have BRNO Model 21 clone spoon bolt handles for A$50 ea posted if you so desired.

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfor...r-ETA-pics.html

Edited by tophet1 (20/04/10 05:57 PM)


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GK
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Peconga]
      #159340 - 22/04/10 10:27 PM

Hi Peconga,
Thanks for the detail respose. I seriously doubt that I'll ever come across a G33/40 or VZ33 action here in Australia.

Kar a or Kar az mausers do come up but they are fairly steeply priced. I looked at a Kar a today and it was a fairly battered example with no bluing and a mismatched bolt. It was a complete rifle and the asking price was nearly $1100. Apart from the price, I could not make myself pull it apart.

I already have a lightened swedish mauser and since I'm impatient, I propably buy a FN/Belgium mauser in .30/06 and see how much I can lighten it. Since most of these have the markings ground of the recievers (not sure why), they don't hold any collectors value. I have access to a milling machine so I can do some of the simpler weight loss work myself. Has anyone ever made aluminium magazine/trigger assemblies for M98's?

Tophet1,
I went and had a good look at a Port M904 today. I have to agree that they are extremely good value and superbly made. I can't stop thinking about them. It would not be suitable for my current plan but definetly worth picking one up for a full on custom job in the future.

Regards

George


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justcurious
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #159354 - 23/04/10 04:59 AM

Yes there were several makers of aluminium triggerguards.

The most interesting was made by W. Roell(during the wartime CEO of the commercial production line in Oberndorf).

Short after WW2 until 1960 he made an exact copy of the original Oberndorf commercial Mauser but it was made of alum. Only the bottom was of steel.

Hope the picture will be seen.



from top to bottom:

Roell,Original Oberndorf,Argentine

That triggerguard fits the standard length 98 and reduces the weight considerably.

Swiss Cheesing a steel (even in excess )will never come to that weight.

Have one. Donīt know if I need that part.

Weight: Argentine 240 gramms

Roell: 180 gramms

Main Key to a lightweight rifle is barrelcontour(and length) and stock (profile).
Overworking a large ring action is a lot of work for nearly nothing.
A smallring action looks lighter , but the weight difference is not worth mending , but the stocks for those actions can be made more slender.


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John303
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: justcurious]
      #159357 - 23/04/10 07:40 AM

Just to add, one of the slickest actions, which are fairly rare (I am pleased to own one) is a standard lenght, small ring Browning FN Supreme. I purchased just the action in the 70s (I think), installed a Douglas premium barrel in 6mm 1 in 10 twist, set it in a Calif. French walnut stock from Herters. Hopefully it will stay in the familly. --- John303.

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Paul
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: GK]
      #159432 - 25/04/10 12:22 AM

Quote:

Hi Paul,
What sort of weight did you get your FN 30/06 down to after modifying?
Regards
George





George,
I have one of the rifles at home and will weigh it tomorrow if I remember. I think I got it down to about 7lb but it may shade that with the PH peepsight and leather sling added, though removing the rear tangent sight and a pennyweight or two of enamel and steel from the metalwork covers some of that.

At one stage it wasn't shooting too well, so I replaced my home-improved trigger with a Timney and glass bedded the action, perhaps restoring weight. Mine has a bored out bolt handle, from Brownells I think. I suppose you could bore out the altered military knob or, like the FN sporters, mill a flat undeneath and chequer it (if that's the term on metal).

This one was a Columbian Army rifle and still has the crest on the receiver ring. The main thing I like about the FNs is their walnut stocks and none of the flutes, cutouts and junk you find on the German ones.

My two FNs both had attractive grain in the stocks, inspiring me to spend much time on them. Among other things, I carved a cheekpiece and more-defined pistol grip out of the military wood, to make them look like post-war FN sporters. This, plus general slimming down and chequering saved some weight, but then I added length and weight with cork spacers and recoil pads.


Good luck in your endeavours
- Paul


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butchlambert1
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Paul]
      #159491 - 26/04/10 05:25 AM

This is my Peruvian that is now a small ring and has the G33/40 cuts. It will be a 250-3000.


I will have it recase hardened.
Butch


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justcurious
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: butchlambert1]
      #159497 - 26/04/10 07:04 AM

Wellcome on board.
Was it a Peruvian (Czech) small ring action ? or did you reduce an intermediate length large ring Oberndorf 1909 to a small ring contour ?


The lightening cut I see ,is the thinner left receiver sidewall.

What I miss on a real 33/40 look alike are the lightening cuts on the lower parts on both side of the receiver. (Though a challenge for the stockmaker and not really necessary)

What I dislike is the amount of radius cut on the right side of the receiver ring.

What cartridge have you in mind to choose ?


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butchlambert1
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: justcurious]
      #159498 - 26/04/10 07:11 AM

It was an intermediate large ring reduced. It will be a 250-3000. I have not decided whether to make the other cuts or not. I am not trying to pass it off as a G33/44. I'm working on some subtle and different scope bases.
Butch


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: butchlambert1]
      #159524 - 26/04/10 11:38 AM

Here's a G33/40 for comparison.



Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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GK
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: CptCurl]
      #159775 - 30/04/10 10:43 PM

I got lucky a few days ago and stumbled across this Erfurt 1917 Kar 98a. Its got a matching bolt but the bottom metal is missing because it was in a horrible and ill fitting stock with a blind magazine.

As part of the deal, I got rid of the stock. It currently has a slim .257 roberts barrel on it.

I like it because it has a rear apeture sight and is not drilled on the forward reciever.

All things are pointing towards a scout scope set up.

I have not decided on calibre yet but I have been thinking of 8, 9 and 9.3x57 as well as 9.3x62 if possible.

Since hanging around this site, I've gone off the synthetic stocks a bit, but I'm not sure a scout scoped rifle looks any good with a traditional stock.

Thoughts?

George
[image][/image] [image]http://[/image]

Edited by GK (01/05/10 12:03 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Lightest 98 Mauser action? [Re: Rolf]
      #159780 - 01/05/10 12:24 AM

From the Bavarian rifle maker


Quote:

in Bavaria/Deggendorf there is a gunmaker famous for light mountain rifles on the basis of Mauser 98 (old and new systems). Here the homepage: http://www.kesslerin.info/

Very slick, special trigger etc














Slender rifle!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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