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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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lancaster
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that's entertainment
      #138413 - 04/07/09 05:00 AM

The most exotic german medium bore cartridge is the 11,2x60 Schueler, since I am looking for a rifle heard only about four worldwide. One is standing in my safe.
The next after this is the 10,75x57(also called Mannlicher), since yesterday one of seven rifle’s I found till now stand’s next to my schueler rifle. one year ago I was talking with my gunmaker about making a new rifle for the small 10,75 because it wasn’t possible to find an old gun. I talk with triebel about making a chamber reamer but then was an old M 88 sporting rifle in 9x57 Mauser crossing my way. Also on my to do list. It was expensive and asking a dealer about the price and btw telling him about my 10,75x57 project.
His answer: I have an 10,75 Geco and you can have a M 88 with a repaired stock for half of the money from me.
then I feel that a Husqvarna Mod.46 in 9,3x57 Mauser would make a good team with the other’s and order such a Swedish crown jewel in denmark. Build with mauser 94 action it give’s a nice medium bore evolution with the 10,75 x57 Mauser 98 rifle





German commission M 88, sporting rifle build with a Karabiner M 88 action 9x57Mauser
Swedish Husqvarna M 46 9,3x57
Mauser 98 sporting rifle from Geco 10,75x57
Mauser 98 sporting rifle from E. Steigleder 11,2x60 Schüler







The M 88 sporter is the nicest compare with the mauser actions
You see that the whole thing is a big disappointment , what I need now is a Mannlicher Schönauer in 9,5x56 to close the gap and there is also a Mannlicher M 93 (Rumänien Modell) in 375 NE 2,5” I know – very expensive.
And we will see what is coming from finland in the future

























The action use the old style charger clip, when empty you open a trap door and remove it.

Most M 88 sporting rifle’s are build in Suhl from Haenel and Schilling. My rifle don’t have a name on it, under the barrel ,it looks very “haenel” like. The broken stock is old, I have no problems with this. It’s the history of the rifle! The checkering will cut again in future and this will change the situation something.
The 9x57 Mauser is the mother of all medium bore’s, in 1938 DWM load 5 different bullet’s for this.



After the war only the 16 gramm bullet was loaded as softpoint round and flat and full metal jacket round nose. Its my feeling that the 16 gramm bullet is the “right “ weigth, giving the best balance between case and bullet












This is very interesting: “Wichtig für die Kolonien“ important for the colony’s
For the german colony’s where its not allow to bring Rifles for the 8mm Military cartridge into the country we make the mauser sporting rifle’s also for the 9mm cartridge Mod. 88 (9x57)

I never see this before, Albrecht Kind catalog 1908




The tiger in the catalog wasn’t a joke:






M 88 have kill in action - a sporting rifle in Dutch east India on tiger and elefant, chance is very high that this was in 9x57 Mauser




















The Mannlicher Schoenauer Mod 1905 in 9x56 MS was on the same level as the old 9x57 Mauser but the rifle cost 165 Mark against 82 Mark for a M 88 sporter. The quality of the Mannlicher was higher but this was not the argument for a farmer in the colony’s if you have the chance to buy a rifle for the half









Post war RWS load again with 18,2 gramm softpoint. In the 1962 DWM catalog only available while stock last,RWS also see the 9x57 as a dead cartridge. Of course the DWM and RWS post war ammo was in the old ballistic specification. Around 1973 only Kynoch ammo was available in germany. That how things are going on.

18,2 and 16gramm bullet are no longer available, Delsing and Degol in Europe make this on demand. American .358 bullets can be used and for plinking the .357 revolver bullet




Kemira loading data for the 9x57R, in all the same like the rimless round
Old copper crusher pressure 2500 bar, new pieco pressure is 2800 bar


The 9x57R was a favorit in belgium for light double rifles. The Belgian’s have build a lot of light doubles in 8x60RS, 9x57R and .35 WCF for the domestic market and FN in liege make ammo into the eighties. Found with FN or Browning headstamp.



The only recent CIP proofed load in 9x57

Wolfgang Romey in Horneber brass, 14,7 gramm, 225 grain softpoint

Its not nessesary to say so much about the husqvarna M 46, since the Swedish government was thinking its better torestrict gun ownership many of this fine sporting rifles have leave the country. With every rifle there goes also a little bit of Sweden.
The 9,3x57 history must be write from a Swedish collector once because I don’t find enough material about this cartridge. In the www not a single vintage pic with a moose hunt in Sweden.







because the action is drilled it will get a scope again, maybe an old Zeiss Ziel 6 with steal tube.


Norma is the only maker of this round and that’s what they says about:
“Interestingly, no one seems to be able to determine exactly when or by whom the 9.3x57 chambering was designed but it dates back to around 1900. This is nothing more or less than the 8x57J with the neck opened up to accept the then widely popular 0.366-inch bullets. Since it differs only by 0.008-inch in bullet diameter, this chambering is obviously similar in performance potential and range of applications to the 9x57 Mauser (which uses 0.358-inch bullets). Performance and design are also similar to the 9.5x57 Mannlicher, which has a differently shaped case. It is far more powerful than the rimmed cylindrical 9.3x57R. Several similar chamberings were common at the turn of the last century. Of these, only the 9.3x57 survives in common use. This chambering is still used all over Scandinavia for hunting driven moose and lesser species. The most common gun chambered for this round is the Husqvarna bolt action. This chambering has been nicknamed "The Potato Thrower" due to the fact that it launches a heavy bullet at moderate velocity and, therefore, produces a rainbow-like trajectory. With such popularity and such a good track record on game at typical driven ranges, it is likely to be with us for a good many years, despite the fact that no mainstream manufacturer now chambers it. Since no pressure standard exists for this number, we chose to use a relatively conservative 43,500-psi (3000 Bars) maximum pressure for loads presented
here.”


I understand that Norma means 3000 Bars with the new piezo pressure gauge. The old copper crusher method had have 2600 bar.
Norma factory loads
232grains ( 15.0 gramm) Full Metal Jacket
Velocity fps
0 100 200 300

2215 1930 1670 1440






232 grains( 15 gramm) Oryx

Velocity fps
0 100 200 300
Energy foot pounds
0 100 200 300

2362 2058 1778 1528
2875 2182 1630 1203


285 grains ( 18.5 gramm) Alaska

Velocity fps
0 100 200 300
Energy foot pounds
0 100 200 300

2067 1859 1666 1490
2704 2188 1756 1404

And Norma reloading data:

http://www.norma.cc/sortimentladd.asp?Kaliber=9,3x57&Lang=1#

RWS load, make 1944 in steel case


Between the wars Suhl make some Mauser 98 rifles in 9,3x57 for export to sweden. The firm Gustav Genschow and Co, a big ammunition maker(Geco) also having a firm in Suhl for making guns was very busy exporting rifles to Sweden. Most sporter coming to surface today are making from this firm. I don’t know if the Swedes value this higher than the common Husquarvna. The last one here, a G.G.&Co, make from Kaba (Karl Barthel, Suhl) is very similar with the 10,75x57 from Gustav Genschow, so similar that is possible also made from Karl Bartel for Genschow







A finnish Sako load is listed in 1972








You see in this Kemira list that the 9,3x53R runs a little bit higher than the 9,3x57 Mauser because the mosin can stand a little bit more than the Swedish M 94 action.
This kemira load is always indentical with the sako factory load that we can assume it is the sako factory load:



The 10,75 x57 was in production till WW 2 with the 10,75x63 and the 10,75x68. its also called 11mm Mod.88 meaning it have the 8x57 as mother case. In fact the 8x57 will be to short when necking up. I have made brass from 30 06 and it seems right. Don’t have the die set till now, barrel diameter is .4245 maximum.











































the family:
10,75x52R Gründig(H.UTENDOERFFER NÜRNBERG)
10.75 x 52 R Mannlicher. (Hirtenberger) - 8x57R basic
10.75 x 63 Mauser. ( R.W.S. NÜRNBERG)
10.75 x 65 R Gründig. ( H.UTENDOERFFER NÜRNBERG)
10.75 x 68 Mauser. ( R.W.S. NÜRNBERG)
10.75 x 70 R Barella. (also called 10.75 mm Mauser ,DWM case list number for Stahl Suhl 495, G.C. Dornheim 495 A, H. Leue Berlin 495 B.
this one is made for Barella, gunmaker of the king of prussia
( B.BARELLA * BERLIN *)

Gründig from Dresden was gunmaker of the king of Saxony, his 10,75 mm cartridge family with 45mm, 52mm, 60mm and 65mm case length is more or less the rimmed version of the rimless cartridges with 57, 63 and 68 mm cases.
Would like to find a double for the 10,75x70R, Barella was a very busy man, work for a lot of foreign noble customers and explorer.


the same rifle again but without the stock screws , sold in Sweden, GECO must have been very busy in Sweden before the last war and they also send some 10,75 with the 9,3x57 mauser sporter.

543
KULGEVÄR, Tyskt, repeter, fabrikat: G.G & Co ÒKABAÓ, kal. 10,75x57, tillvnr. 1273, piplängd 62 cm, klaffsikte med ett fast och ett fällbart, halvoktagon pipa med hel spång, träkolven med pistolgrepp och kindstöd, bakelit bakkappa, tryckmärken på kolven, GOTT SKICK.
Såld för 3500 SEK


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:41 PM)


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88MauSporter
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #138424 - 04/07/09 02:48 PM

Lancaster:
Such a nice aray of arms from Masuer origins and Calibers. I envy your 1888 in the 9x57. They are so similar to mine in 8x57J. I can relate to the desire for the 10.75. This is like looking to a feasable .40 Whelen. It worked and was a popular game getter. I have just sent off th 1893 dutch mannilicher in 6.5X53R to have some barrel work and then finish up as a light short carbine sporter.
The M146 in 9.3X57 is off to rechamber to a 9.3X62. This will sit well in the the line of Mauser actions sporters ranging from 7x57 to .375 HH. The mannlicher will be a great companion of the 1888 commission sporters. I would like to have one of my '88 sporters in the 9x57 or 10.75. They are, as you see, very handy and functional sporters.
Good luck in your obsession.
I can certainly relate.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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John303
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #138449 - 04/07/09 11:27 PM

Being a Mauser nut, all I can say very nice group of rifles, must keep an eye out for an 88, thanks for posting. --- John303.

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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: John303]
      #138454 - 05/07/09 03:05 AM

thank you, I must say compare with the mannlicher schönauer the M 88 is the real dandy rifle. it not so much you can measure but a singele row mannlicher magazin make smaller actions. this make the rifle more elegant than any double row magazin gun. and everyone have a mannlicher schönauer.
all of this M 88 sporter come from suhl and they are all very similar.

the 9x57 will be my plinking rifle because of cheap .357 bullets. I hope the rifle like it. kemira have a load with a 170 grains softpoint for 795m/sec.
the dealer told me that he see 10,75x68 rifles from time to time where he find that it was a 10,75x57 before. after WW 2 when only 10,75x68 ammo was available many of this rifles see the chamber reamer. my Geco rifle is so heavy that I believe it was only one model in this firm and they ream the chamber on demand. it will be no problem to use this gun in 10,75x68.
there are allways rumours that the x57 have had headspace problems because it dont realy have a shoulder. i will see

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (05/07/09 03:09 AM)


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88MauSporter
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #138465 - 05/07/09 05:32 AM

Lancaster, You are correct about the '88 action sporters and their light and sleek build.
They are also smooth to operate with the correct packet clips. Some of the recent makes are too heavy metal and are hard to extract the cartridge from. I have several and must alter them to make them function well.
Here are two of my 1888 Sporters. They are so similar that I believe they are by the same maker. The differences are in the butt plates, the bolt handle and the magazine. The one has a limited internal magazine and eleminates the orginal in line box magazine. The limited magazine is only 3 round but does not require a loading clip. The facilitates the over the bore mounting of the scope.
This one has typical claw mounts as found on Mannlicher rifles.
I notice in the photos you have of the Asian Dutch indies elephant hunt, the Euro fellow has an 1888 and the local fellow has the Dutch Mannilicher the same as mine started out as. Note the very pronounced arch to the rear site. Mine will soon be a nice sporter with full stock and a new barrel (original barrel found in surplus).
















--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:42 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #138489 - 05/07/09 01:43 PM



please do not fear for the tasteful engraving on the receiver of my M 88, this is for another project. as you can see on the zeiss ziel 4 with "schiene" it will be also wrong for a M 88.
what you need for your rifle is a older scope like this
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2329323&PHPSESSID=86442d3912f9cad6ce053c05bcc01ccd
and you would not believe what I have


SEM Hinterfuß for Mannlicher Schönauer mount

and this part can be use to make a Vorderfuß
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2317679&PHPSESSID=86442d3912f9cad6ce053c05bcc01ccd

of course the parts need to be milled down on top and have to get a ring for the scope

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:44 PM)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #138715 - 09/07/09 11:07 AM

Lancaster / 88 Mau Sporter,

This is not merely entertainment - it is sheer bliss!

Thank you both for the wonderful posts on this thread.

Good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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pjaln
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #138725 - 09/07/09 01:27 PM

nice collection,,,i have an 11.2x60 with a 28inch barrell 1standing 4folding i will try to get some pics out...paul

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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: pjaln]
      #138747 - 10/07/09 03:17 AM

I would like to see your 11,2x60 schüler, its my special interest. seems to be a rifle for the south african market. is the barrel unusual long?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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pjaln
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #138759 - 10/07/09 01:20 PM

i will try to get some pics ,yes the barrell is long 28" octagon to round ...paul

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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: pjaln]
      #138811 - 11/07/09 08:58 PM

range report 9x57 Mauser in the M 88 hunting rifle



with the M 88 first time shot handloads with 8x57 Geco brass resized, the 180 grains remington hollow point in .357


50 meter with iron sigth's, will hold allways the 10 in running boar competion


if Fuhrmann look's in, this is the new job of your old Zeiss Ziel4



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:44 PM)


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Bokmal
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #140323 - 10/08/09 06:19 PM

Quote:

And we will see what is coming from finland in the future



I do fear our beloved 9,3x53R will be an ugly duckling among those wonderful rifles/cartridges of yours. But I'm looking forward to reading about your experiences with it!

--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: Bokmal]
      #140327 - 10/08/09 09:04 PM

please dont worry bokmal, same old story as ever: ugly duck will becoming a swan!
I can see that something is possible and it will be play in the same league in the end.
and the cartridge , will be in the best society.

time for a little update: what happen till now:

got some old 9,3x57 Norma plastic tip on egun, 286 grain



anyone knows when it was in production

the little family



9x57 9,3x57 9,5x56

had have problems with 9x57 mauser brass. CIP standard give a max diameter on the base of 11,95mm but the chamber wont accept this. an old RWS round( impossible to say if pre or post war) measure 11,79mm and this was what the M 88 like. so I had to reduce the base diameter on the lathe. I dont believe that you find this problem in sporting rifles made after WW 1 but before 1900 there was no standard for chamber measurment's. its obvisious that RWS was aware of this problem.
I made a bullet rezising die for making .366 from .375 bullets, here on the left side with a 286 grain S&B for compare and a homemade bullet make from .222 Rem brass. lead core is a 8,15x46R Schuetzenrifle bullet, loaded with 9mm Parabellum die and crimped with 32 S&W die. base is turned on a lathe before resizing. will try it to aneal the brass so base turning wont be nessesary anymore.
on the rigth side is a die for resizing .429 bulllets to .424 for my 10,75x57. an orignal Speer 300 grain softpoint in .429 with the homemade version in .424. the 300 grain lead bullet comes from an old mould for the 11,15x60R. I had resize this to .440( for 11,2x60 schueler) and run it now into the .424 die again. will see if it works!




Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:45 PM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #140360 - 11/08/09 07:34 AM

Quote:



if Fuhrmann look's in, this is the new job of your old Zeiss Ziel4






Oh yes, interesting!
Looks like the old scope has been re-blued?
Can you give me a closer look of the scope mount?

Best regards,
Fuhrmann

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:46 PM)


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88MauSporter
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: fuhrmann]
      #140375 - 11/08/09 12:27 PM

lancaster, nice shooting, I am impressed by the shooting of the '88s I have shot. I have 6 now. All in 8.x57. Two ar rebarrel in the S chamber, two in the S chamber with deepened rifling from the original J bore. The two in photos on this post are J bore rifles. I have two in Millitary configuration in long rifles. They do not require the mannlicher style clip. There is a butternife handled jacketed barrel rifle in a sporting configuation. This is likely a turkish forest service rifle. There is one "sporter" carbine with a jacketed barrel. All shoot very well.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Story
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #140952 - 22/08/09 07:21 AM

Quote:

two in the S chamber with deepened rifling from the original J bore.



!!! I thought mine was a one-off, having slugged from the bore (.318) and breech (.323) - have you ever read anything more about how/why/when this was done? My own supposition was that it was to make the (probably unattractive, old stock) Model 88s on the shelf attractive to hunters using the .323 Mauser rounds.



Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:47 PM)


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Story
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #140953 - 22/08/09 07:28 AM

Lancaster,
Very enlightening - thanks.

In reference to the short barreled Mauser under this catalog passage (also shown in the 1911 ALPHA catalog), has anyone ever handled or shot (or even seen) one?

Quote:

This is very interesting: “Wichtig für die Kolonien“ important for the colony’s
For the german colony’s where its not allow to bring Rifles for the 8mm Military cartridge into the country we make the mauser sporting rifle’s also for the 9mm cartridge Mod. 88 (9x57)

I never see this before, Albrecht Kind catalog 1908




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MarinePMI
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: Story]
      #141531 - 04/09/09 04:17 AM

Story,

Perhaps they were hammer forged that way? CZ does this with current rifles. The mandrel is simply tapered to allow the swaged bore to be created. Perhaps the same method was used in these older rifles?

A swaged bore allows for a tight fit on possibly wide ranging tolerances in ammunition, without raising pressures to a dangerous level. Honestly, I've never heard of it being used on something this old, but then again, I haven't heard of a lot of things! (It had to start somewhere, and I seriously doubt it was the current CZ's idea.)

Perhaps someone might know more?

--------------------
MarinePMI


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MarinePMI
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: MarinePMI]
      #141540 - 04/09/09 06:23 AM

By happenstance, I just ran across this while looking for something else...not sure if anyone is interested, but I figured I'd trhrow it out there...

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=4060&chrSuperSKU=&MC=YJ

--------------------
MarinePMI


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DarylS
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: MarinePMI]
      #153313 - 11/02/10 01:50 AM

10.75x57 would be an excellent woods rifle here - to 300 yards for meadows. Cool!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: DarylS]
      #153315 - 11/02/10 02:09 AM

Do 88's have the same thread sizing as 98's? They will, of course, have .318" grooves.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: that's entertainment [Re: DarylS]
      #153326 - 11/02/10 05:29 AM

Quote:

10.75x57 would be an excellent woods rifle here - to 300 yards for meadows. Cool!




the 10,75x57 is the rimless version of the 444 marlin. I am sure that nobody by marlin was thinking about this old pre war german hunting cartridge when the 444 was developt but the cases are so similar that the marlin looks like the rimed version. difference is that the marlin shoots 240 -300 grains revolver bullets with 3300 bar max pressure iirc and the 10,75x57 was allways loaded with the same 350 grain bullet like the potent 10,75x68.
I have no data about the pressure of the 10,75 but dare to say it wasn#t more than 2800 bar. in my opinion is the heavy 350 grains bullet the better killer but makes a short to medium range cartridge.
I have not so much time for the 10,75 till now but try 240 and 300 grains bullet, resized from .429 to .424 in the rock chucker just fo seeing how they work


both making 20 cm in soft pine: the 240 grains Remington with 40 grains N 120 explode in pieces but the 300 grains Speer under 40 grains N130 was looking tolerable. its not new that pure revolver bullet in the 444 are only for paper punching. this 300 grains Speer bullet is maybe good enough for small game like roe deer.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:48 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #153470 - 12/02/10 10:28 PM

Lancaster, thank you for sharing your trove of knowledge with us. Fascinating.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Supersporter40
.224 member


Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Alberta Canada, in the dog hou...
Re: that's entertainment [Re: lancaster]
      #155773 - 08/03/10 02:54 PM



A little late showing up for this one but I have another KABA to post with your stash if I may.
Breech bolt was lost in the shipping process and it took some damage too so the project now sits in the safe waiting for attention. Getting the itch to chase Moose again and no doubt this will be the go to gun.

Very nice collection, I wish I had a 10,75x57 here, oh what fun!

Edited by CptCurl (10/09/10 08:48 PM)


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: that's entertainment [Re: Supersporter40]
      #155824 - 09/03/10 05:15 AM

hello supersporter

I think its also a 9,3x57 and was coming from sweden? I feel sorry for you about losing the bolt.
what did you find on this rifle, only "Kaba"?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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