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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany
1920s Mauser parts salvaged
      #329611 - 24/06/19 10:09 PM

A short time ago, on another thread, I reported buying an old Mauser stock on egun inadvertedly. It set me back Euro 1.- + 5.- shipping, Eur 6.-, about US$ 7.- total. Maybe a bit too much for some firewood.

Alas, as it is a typical German sporter stock of the interwar years, I found some use for it. I cleaned it up and replaced the perished buttpad with one made by GFT. BTW, GFT https://www.gft-gmbh.de/index.php?id=36&L=2 supplies most of the German guntrade with their various products. The Blaser group, Blaser, Sauer, Mauser and Rigby, is among their customers. I applied an oil finish, not yet really completed.
I mated that stock to the sorry remains,barreled action only, of a 1920s Sempert & Krieghoff, Suhl, model "Gibeon" in 8x60S. The "Gibeon" was Krieghoff's upgrade Mauser action repeater, featuring a 1/3 octagonal barrel with full length integral rib and a flat bolthandle. Such "non-military" bolthandles were well liked then on sporters. I installed a Timney trigger and a prewar Zeiss "Zielsechs" 6x scope. So the stray parts are now combined into a quite "period" , 1920s, looking and useable rifle.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329616 - 24/06/19 10:23 PM

Looks very good and a good use of parts.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Louis
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #329627 - 25/06/19 04:47 AM

Very smart rifle Kuduae!

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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JDL
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Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 247
Loc: Louisiana
Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Louis]
      #329629 - 25/06/19 05:30 AM

That all came together quite well Kuduae. Looks very good without too much cash outlay, just the way I desire all my projects to go but, seldom do. ;-)

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: JDL]
      #329630 - 25/06/19 05:59 AM

That piece of 'firewood' isn't too bad at all!
It has quite a nice grain & figure to it - that oil finish that you did is a pretty darn good job as well! You certainly turned out a very nice & usable period piece there Kuduae; the 8x60mm round is no slouch in the ballistics department either.

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xausa
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329638 - 25/06/19 11:51 AM

A textbook case of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Congratulations, Axel!

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Hunter4752001
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Reged: 25/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: xausa]
      #329640 - 25/06/19 04:34 PM

Lovely work. Nothing is better than seeing what would otherwise end up as scrap, turned into a beautiful piece ready for another century of active use.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #329643 - 25/06/19 07:11 PM

Wow Axel, if that is a spare parts rifle, it is better than a lot of what we shoot. Well done. A modern classic re-creation with styke from bits and bobs!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329644 - 25/06/19 08:09 PM

Quote:

the 8x60mm round is no slouch in the ballistics department either.


It may be annoying to an Anglophile, but the 8x60S, the old "Versailles treaty cartridge", is fully the equal of the venerated British .318 Rimless NE, comparing ballistics.
Kynoch now lists these muzzle velocities for their .318 loads, taken with a 28" test barrel:
180 gr bullet at 2700 fps
250 gr bullet at 2400 fps
Instrumental velocities, 5 m from the muzzle, of my 8x60S loads, from the 22" barrel of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1925:
180 gr Barnes TSX bullet,52 gr VV N140 at 2720 fps
250 gr Woodleigh bullet, 53 gr VV N160 at 2330 fps
Granted, the .318 bullet is larger by a mere .006". But I doubt any animal or hunter will note a difference in practical use.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329646 - 25/06/19 09:36 PM

Quote:


Instrumental velocities, 5 m from the muzzle, of my 8x60S loads, from the 22" barrel of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1925:



Offered here with a 24" barrel, from the 1939 Stoeger:


Ballistics for some 8X60 cartridges:





--------------------
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PatagonHunter
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Loc: Bariloche, Patagonia Argentina
Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329650 - 26/06/19 12:38 AM

Hi kuduae,

Great job of restoration!!!!

Perfect stalking rifle!!!

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: PatagonHunter]
      #329657 - 26/06/19 04:16 AM

Quote:

Offered here with a 24" barrel, from the 1939 Stoeger:


My M1925 Mannlicher – Schoenauer had it's barrel shortened slightly, due to a damaged muzzle. I just remeasured it, breech face to muzzle, as 57.5 cm = 22.5". BTW, the M-S rifle barrels were 60 cm, that is 23.6", not 24".



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Rothhammer1
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329663 - 26/06/19 09:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Offered here with a 24" barrel, from the 1939 Stoeger:


My M1925 Mannlicher – Schoenauer had it's barrel shortened slightly, due to a damaged muzzle. I just remeasured it, breech face to muzzle, as 57.5 cm = 22.5". BTW, the M-S rifle barrels were 60 cm, that is 23.6", not 24".



Indeed. My 1922 proofed M1910 Takedown has a 60 cm barrel. Apparently the U.S. catalog (Stoeger) rounded to the nearest convenient measurement in inches.

According to the 1939 Stoeger the MS carbines (stutzen) were offered with an 18" barrel for the 6.5, 20" for the .30-'06, 7x57, 9x56, 8X56, and 9.5X57.

The rifles were 24" (per Stoeger) in .30-'06, 7X64, 8X60, 9.3X62, and 10.75X68.

"Extra long barrels" were available, however. The 9.5 was listed up to 26 inches (or was it 66cm?).




That's a very nice rifle you've built (the 1920s 'parts' rifle), and the M1925 MS is just marvelous. Is that one of your modified Lyman peep sights?

Also, is that a (beautifully executed) horn extension of the butt with the original steel plate reinstalled? That's an interesting location for the rear sling swivel.

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kuduae
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329670 - 26/06/19 11:27 PM

Rothhammer, 2 subjects of your questions, so two posts.
Quote:

Apparently the U.S. catalog (Stoeger) rounded to the nearest convenient measurement in inches.
According to the 1939 Stoeger the MS carbines (stutzen) were offered with an 18" barrel for the 6.5, 20" for the .30-'06, 7x57, 9x56, 8X56, and 9.5X57.
The rifles were 24" (per Stoeger) in .30-'06, 7X64, 8X60, 9.3X62, and 10.75X68.
"Extra long barrels" were available, however. The 9.5 was listed up to 26 inches (or was it 66cm?).



Yes, those 18, 20, 24 and 26" imperial barrel lengths were rounded by the American importers. The Steyr factory made the barrels to metric lengths. So the pre-war 18" barrel of the M1903 Stutzen was indeed 45 cm = 17.7". This was a tad below the original US NFA 18" minimum, still valid in the 1950s. So when Steyr resumed production of M-S sporters with the M1950 on Stoeger's desire, they made the postwar 6.5x54 barrels slightly longer to comply with the then US minimum.
The other factory barrel lengths you mentioned were really 50 cm = 19.7", 60 cm = 23.6" and 65 cm = 25.6". But there were more options to Mannlicher – Schoenauers and Ammo than those listed by the pre-WW2 Stoeger catalogs. F.i., the 1914 Franz Sodia, Ferlach, catalog listed 75 cm = 29.5" barrels as an option for the 1903 to 1910 models. Stoeger listed some DWM loads only, not the more popular RWS offerings with H-jacket bullets.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329673 - 27/06/19 12:40 AM

Quote:

), and the M1925 MS is just marvelous. Is that one of your modified Lyman peep sights?
Also, is that a (beautifully executed) horn extension of the butt with the original steel plate reinstalled? That's an interesting location for the rear sling swivel.


Rothhammer, we are deviating more and more from the original subject of the thread. When I bought that rifle 17 years ago at a hunting show, it came with a severely damaged muzzle, a shortened buttstock, deteriorated finish and an abominable post-war 6x Pecar scope. I paid Euro 150.- then, but managed to sell that scope for Euro 70.-. I shortened and recrowned the barrel and reinstalled the original front sight base. The stock was lengthened with a hard rubber/ebonit spacer by GFT (again, see above). Now the ground down trap buttplate was to short. In my "Junkbox" I found another one, original length, trap missing, with the "Widows peak" ground off, perfect. The original rear sling swivel position interfered with the hole in the stock. So the threaded stem was a bit short for my taste. The rotten grip cap had to be replaced anyhow, so I fastened a horn replacement with the base for a detachable swivel.Again, perfect for carriing the rifle with that British strap. I mounted that Hensoldt 4x "Diatal" scope on the original claw mount bases and an original Parker – Hale "Sportarget" peep sight on the striker nut. A rust blue and an oil finish completed the job for my use.Shot close to a hundred heads of game with that outfit.

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sbs470
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Reged: 15/04/04
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329690 - 27/06/19 07:18 PM

I agree with Kuduae about the 8 x 60s cartridge. It is a big powerful cartridge.I picked up a no name mauser at Tulsa last year.
Re-proofed to 8x 60s in 1930. It has all the bells and wistles of a quality piece but no name, even a basket weave horn butt plate.I will try and get some pictures posted later on.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: sbs470]
      #329692 - 27/06/19 08:05 PM

A question. Why is a 8x60S so impressive when compared to say a .30-06? Shorter case. Is powder capacity also lesser in the 8x60m or is it a blown out case? .323 (or .318 calibre, so in theory can use a heavier bullet than .30 calibres. But you can get .308 250 grs, just like you can get 250 gr 8mm. Lesser range of projectiles, and in particular less choice of premium projectiles.

So don't understand why it is much different from the 8x57, .30-06 etc?

BTW I do like the idea of the 8x60S, but isn't it pretty much a 8mm/06 in usage?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329693 - 27/06/19 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the 8x60mm round is no slouch in the ballistics department either.


It may be annoying to an Anglophile, but the 8x60S, the old "Versailles treaty cartridge", is fully the equal of the venerated British .318 Rimless NE, comparing ballistics.
Kynoch now lists these muzzle velocities for their .318 loads, taken with a 28" test barrel:
180 gr bullet at 2700 fps
250 gr bullet at 2400 fps
Instrumental velocities, 5 m from the muzzle, of my 8x60S loads, from the 22" barrel of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1925:
180 gr Barnes TSX bullet,52 gr VV N140 at 2720 fps
250 gr Woodleigh bullet, 53 gr VV N160 at 2330 fps
Granted, the .318 bullet is larger by a mere .006". But I doubt any animal or hunter will note a difference in practical use.



Well the .318 WR is really a forerunner of the .338/06. A .330/06. Like the 8x60S is almost a 8mm/06.

BTW all good and useful medium calibre medium game choices. With a 250 gr capable of more.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #329702 - 28/06/19 05:51 AM

Quote:


Rothhammer, we are deviating more and more from the original subject of the thread. '



Apologies.

They're both quite nice, the Mauser and the MS.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329703 - 28/06/19 06:16 AM

Quote:

A question. Why is a 8x60S so impressive when compared to say a .30-06?


Re.: Why is an "iconic" .318 WR so impressive when compared to say a "mundane" .30-06? Shorter case, less capacity, almost no bullet selection except 2 Woodleighs and 1 Prvi Partizan.
You are right, there is very little practical difference between all the cartridges you mentioned. But it's a matter of rifle provenance. Before WW2, just as English speaking hunters did not understand metric numbers (reread Taylor and Keith), continantal Eurpeans did not understand the alien imperial ones like inches, grains or fps. Though German gunmakers made some rifles in .30-06 and .318 WR for export, such cartridges were virtually unknown in Germany. If you are looking for a 1920s – 30s bolt action sporting rifle of this performance class, an American one will be in .30-06 most likely, a British one in .318 WR and a German one in 8x60. The differences serve one purpose only: They provide topics for endless discussions among hunters on one being a marvel and the others about useless.

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Carpetsahib
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #330027 - 11/07/19 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the 8x60mm round is no slouch in the ballistics department either.


It may be annoying to an Anglophile, but the 8x60S, the old "Versailles treaty cartridge", is fully the equal of the venerated British .318 Rimless NE, comparing ballistics.
Kynoch now lists these muzzle velocities for their .318 loads, taken with a 28" test barrel:
180 gr bullet at 2700 fps
250 gr bullet at 2400 fps
Instrumental velocities, 5 m from the muzzle, of my 8x60S loads, from the 22" barrel of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1925:
180 gr Barnes TSX bullet,52 gr VV N140 at 2720 fps
250 gr Woodleigh bullet, 53 gr VV N160 at 2330 fps
Granted, the .318 bullet is larger by a mere .006". But I doubt any animal or hunter will note a difference in practical use.

The 8mm is slightly superior in at least one respect: The 8mm 250 gr bullet has a SD = .342; the .318 WR 250 gr bullet has a SD = .328. So theoretically, the 8mm bullet should penetrate a little better at the same velocity.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #330028 - 12/07/19 01:05 AM

In my earlier comments I forgot about often saying how the 8x60S was a popular cartridge chambering in Africa.

Among the non so affluent settlers and residents. The English name rifles we often rave about on NE were just as unaffordable to the common man in 1920 or 1910 as today. So Mauser 98 rifles in 8x57S or rechambered to 60mm were reportedly quite popular and reasonably common. Especially in the pre WW1 German colonies or even after WW1.

I do question what projectiles were available in ammunition back then. I doubt that 220 plus gr projectiles were used at all? Let alone 250 gr projectiles. True or not?

I think this is one reason the .318 Westley Richards had its reputation, due to the usual loading of 250 gr projectiles in ammo, suitable for lion, buffalo and even elephant. WDM Bell's favourite elephant slaying cartridge so NOT the 7x57 or .275 Rigby, it was the .318 Westley Richards with a 250 gr FMJ.

I would have thought 8x60S ammo in those days might have had projectiles weighing around 200 grs. Or 150 grs. Or in that range. Making performance a lot different.

Would love to be corrected with facts if my opinions are wrong.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Carpetsahib
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: NitroX]
      #330056 - 12/07/19 11:12 PM

The DWM Cartridge List of 1935 shows bullets for the 8x60 and 8x64 ranging from 154 grs (10 g) to 227 grs (14.7g). SDs range from .210 to .310.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #330062 - 13/07/19 02:44 AM

Finn Aagaard, who grew up in Kenya, wrote "Guns of the Kenya Settlers" in the Guns & Ammo 1986 Annual. Quote:
" When I started hunting I the late '40s, the picture was still much the same. My first rifle was a Mauserwerke type B sporter that an uncle had liberated during the Ethiopian campaign, chambered for te 8x60mm cartridge that used a 196 gr round nose or solid bullet at a supposed 2,360 fps. It was my only big-game rifle for about 10 years and bagged a lot of game for me, including one buffalo –broke it's neck- and a 4,000 - pound hippo.I found it absolutely reliable on plains game such as zebra, wildebeest and all the antelope including four big eland that I took with it. Amongst my hunting companions' arms were a sporterized .303 Lee-Enfield, a couple of 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbines, a 7mm Mauser, an 8x56 M-S, several 8x60s, one .400/.350 Rigby, two 9.3x62mm's and one double-barreled Husqarna in 9.3x74R. Scope sights were unkown.
I have still never seen a .318 Westley Richards or a .333 Jeffery, nor had I laid eyes on a .375 H&H until a chap whose coffee crop had come in lent me his new Cogswell & Harrison in that caliber for a buffalo hunt in 1957."
So much for the use of the 8x60 in Africa, even by non-German farmers.

Here are the 8x60 loads offered by the German ammo companies in the 1930s, data converted by me to imperial units for the sake of most readers:

DWM 1934 handbook "Patrone u.Schuß" (26" barrel):
226 gr rn, 48 gr W1919, 2390 fps
196 gr rn, 46 gr R5, 2585 fps
157 gr rn, 48.6 gr R5, 2785 fps
157 gr rn, 51.6 gr R5, 2972 fps
198 gr copper jacket flat n, 46 gr R5, 2582 fps
154 gr psp, 48.6 gr R5, 2920 fps
154 gr psp, 52.5 gr R4, 3018 fps
196 gr rn strong jacket, 46 gr R5, 2580 fps
185 gr rn strong jacket boat tail, 54 gr special p., 2680 fps
8x60 Magnum Bombe load: 185 gr rn strong jacket boat tail, 57 gr special p., 2923 fps

RWS 1940 Handbuch (24" barrel);
196 gr H-jacket, 47 gr R5, 2585 fps
177 gr D-jacket, 50 gr T39, 2677 fps
227 gr rn, 48 gr T39, 2415 fps
196 gr rn, 49 gr R5, 2677 fps
154 gr psp, 51 gr R4, 2956 fps
187 gr H-jacket, 57 gr special p., 2811 fps
Quite a selection!

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 1920s Mauser parts salvaged [Re: kuduae]
      #330069 - 13/07/19 09:05 AM

The 250 grain bullet in 8mm is only made by Woodleigh I believe.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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