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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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bouldersmith
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Westley Richards take-down mannlicher
      #382993 - 01/03/24 03:07 AM

A very interesting and rare rifle, chambered for 9.5x57MS or the .375 rimless NE. The action has had a steel ring silver soldered to it to facilitate the WR patent take-down system. I have never seen one in the flesh before this rifle. It is currently undergoing a very sympathetic restoration.















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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: bouldersmith]
      #382994 - 01/03/24 04:38 AM

Interesting. 9.5x57 is quite a ctg. that was way underloaded, by today's standards.
V-nice rifle.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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LRF
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: DarylS]
      #383003 - 01/03/24 08:32 AM

Steve, that is very nice and thanks for sharing the pics. This is a first for me to. Makes me want tp stop my other ongoing project and build a WR style takedown. Thanks again

If possible could you take another picture, I would like to see the threads on the barrel shank? And of course any others if you can.

Edited by LRF (01/03/24 08:36 AM)

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bouldersmith
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: LRF]
      #383005 - 01/03/24 10:20 AM

There are no threads holding the barrel on, it has a bayonet lug style lockup with a 90 degree turn to take the barrel down.



Another pic of the action and barrel lockup.



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93x64mm
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: bouldersmith]
      #383014 - 01/03/24 05:23 PM

It will be extremely good hands Steve!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: 93x64mm]
      #383015 - 01/03/24 06:08 PM

Very nice.

I wonder if such a take down system wears overtime and use?

This aged rifle should be able to dispell that idea?

Very nice. I always like the versatility of takedowns.

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John aka NitroX

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LRF
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: NitroX]
      #383019 - 01/03/24 10:03 PM

Thanks Steve, exactly as I had thought and the pics are very good. After restoration is complete you may again want to share pics of the before and after.

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fjrdoc
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: LRF]
      #383020 - 01/03/24 11:53 PM

Very sexy! I wish it were mine.

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Vette447
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: fjrdoc]
      #383145 - 06/03/24 08:11 AM

I have never seen one of these Deluxe Takedown Westley Richards Mannlicher rifles in the flesh outside of old advertisements. Especially being factory engraved as well! This one is beautiful. I can not wait to see it properly and sympathetically restored.

Edited by Vette447 (06/03/24 08:12 AM)

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MiBruce
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: Vette447]
      #383175 - 07/03/24 12:32 AM

Is that showing case colors on the receiver? It looks like it in my pictures. If so, how did they silver solder on the ring and retain the colors?
Bruce

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grandveneur
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: Vette447]
      #383177 - 07/03/24 12:48 AM

Quote:

I have never seen one of these Deluxe Takedown Westley Richards Mannlicher rifles in the flesh outside of old advertisements. Especially being factory engraved as well! This one is beautiful. I can not wait to see it properly and sympathetically restored.



What does restoring mean?

Often the restored rifles look worse than in their original condition. Restoring is only justified if there is something damaged on the rifle that does not allow continued use under safe conditions. Otherwise, simply cleaning the rifle to remove old oil residues and other dirt is often enough. An old rifle should look old, sure in good condition, but not be degraded into a hybrid between old and new.

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9.3x57
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: NitroX]
      #383179 - 07/03/24 12:51 AM

Quote:

Very nice.

I wonder if such a take down system wears overtime and use?

This aged rifle should be able to dispell that idea?

Very nice. I always like the versatility of takedowns.



Agree.

Is there any perceptible "wobble" in it as of now?

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bouldersmith
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: MiBruce]
      #383192 - 07/03/24 07:57 AM

Quote:

Is that showing case colors on the receiver? It looks like it in my pictures. If so, how did they silver solder on the ring and retain the colors?
Bruce



The receiver is blued not color hardened.

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casper50
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: bouldersmith]
      #383219 - 08/03/24 02:50 AM

His rifle, his to do with as he sees fit. I see no reason why a rifle should look less than it can just to keep the rust, dirt and hard knocks of history preserved. Most people have to wear and show their age, autos and firearms don't have to.

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kuduae
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: casper50]
      #383223 - 08/03/24 05:35 AM

A take-down system very similar to Westley Richards' was patented in Germany in 1880. It was assigned to and often used by the Suhl gunmaker Schmidt & Habermann.

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LRF
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #383228 - 08/03/24 08:03 AM

Steve, talking purely technically, when you engage the bayonets' into the female portion of the assemble, in the received and rotate the barrel 1/4 turn, is the engagement such that the Barrel shoulder is pulled back against the receiver? If yes how is this accomplished? I mean are the matching surfaces of the male and female lugs fitted at an angled matching surfaces causing them to wedge together and draw the draw back into the receiver?

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bouldersmith
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: LRF]
      #383231 - 08/03/24 10:09 AM

LRF, no tapers involved but yes, the shoulder is drawn to the action. This one was just the tiniest bit loose,not enough to worry about really. I very slightly swaged the shoulder and it is very tight now.

Steve

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9.3x57
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: bouldersmith]
      #383233 - 08/03/24 12:32 PM

Quote:

Steve, talking purely technically, when you engage the bayonets' into the female portion of the assemble, in the received and rotate the barrel 1/4 turn, is the engagement such that the Barrel shoulder is pulled back against the receiver? If yes how is this accomplished? I mean are the matching surfaces of the male and female lugs fitted at an angled matching surfaces causing them to wedge together and draw the draw back into the receiver?



Quote:

LRF, no tapers involved but yes, the shoulder is drawn to the action. This one was just the tiniest bit loose,not enough to worry about really. I very slightly swaged the shoulder and it is very tight now.

Steve



From an engineering standpoint cams would not work on an action where the sights need to maintain the vertical unless there was an additional take up device such as a threaded ring or some such affair that would provide take-up and then allow the cams to tighten w/o turning the barrels.

This was the reason I asked above if there is any wobble. There appears to be no mechanism or design feature included to take up wear while maintaining proper sight/barrel alignment.

It's interesting that there was a tiny bit of play. Based on what appears to be the design that would be nature of the beast and something with no simple fix.

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bouldersmith
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383238 - 08/03/24 09:38 PM

Quote:

Based on what appears to be the design that would be nature of the beast and something with no simple fix.



Swaging the shoulder is a well known repair method, one commonly used to remedy situations such as over indexed single action Colt barrels. I built a tool for the job years ago by replacing the cutting blade in a large pipe cutter with a hardened wheel, works great, does not take very long and leaves little to no trace of the work done.

More than one way to skin a cat.
Steve

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9.3x57
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: bouldersmith]
      #383240 - 08/03/24 09:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Based on what appears to be the design that would be nature of the beast and something with no simple fix.



Swaging the shoulder is a well known repair method, one commonly used to remedy situations such as over indexed single action Colt barrels. I built a tool for the job years ago by replacing the cutting blade in a large pipe cutter with a hardened wheel, works great, does not take very long and leaves little to no trace of the work done.

More than one way to skin a cat.
Steve



My point is that a take-up "fix" is not found in the design & mechanism itself as it is in more modern "switch barrel" guns.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bouldersmith
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383242 - 08/03/24 10:04 PM

That is certainly true.

I have added two barrel and forend assemblies to an existing H-S Precision take-down system using the modern collar method. They work, are very complicated to build are not very refined looking.

All take-down systems are some sort of compromise in my mind, this one is no different.

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LRF
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: NitroX]
      #383243 - 08/03/24 10:19 PM

Thank You Steve and Rod for the valuable discussion above concerning the mechanisms of takedown on this Westley Richards. Thanks

Quote:

Very nice.

I wonder if such a take down system wears overtime and use?



John, I think the above discussion can go to helping answer your questions

Edited by LRF (08/03/24 10:20 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: LRF]
      #383249 - 09/03/24 04:13 AM

Personal preferences aside, we can still applaud WR for building and presenting top-end guns of obvious quality.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: DarylS]
      #383256 - 09/03/24 10:27 AM

Although I have never seen one of these take-down systems in the flesh, unless the thread had some level of cam effect there is no way that the connection would have been tight even from new. All square threads have some clearance and to make it with zero clearance would make it impossible to turn. If the internal thread is indeed on a slight angle such as with a bayonet, which is what this type of connection is usually called, then it would be tight if pulling up against a shoulder. In that case if the assembly was lightly lubricated and the action dis-assembled/assembled the normal amount that a hunting rifle would be for regular trips then wear would be zero.

Matt.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #383257 - 09/03/24 10:39 AM

As to the point about restoration, this debate as to restore or leave it as is seems to come up all the time. Its interesting to note that classic cars are almost always restored back to original, or in many cases far better than original. No one ever shows any interest in a car in poor condition unless its its the first one of that model ever made etc. then everyone is interested. But even they get restored. If however its in poor condition, very few people leave it that way but have it fully restored. The same goes with Vintage Wrist watches which are restored back to original condition. Same with Vintage furniture or Radio's, as well as many other things. All of these items also have a story to tell but when it comes to guns there is definitely a camp that says to leave it untouched.

Personally if the gun is in poor condition I prefer to see them restored sympathetically which is actually quite difficult to do correctly. If the gun is used but in excellent condition then I would leave it as is.

IMHO, Matt.

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Vette447
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Re: Westley Richards take-down mannlicher [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #383266 - 09/03/24 03:50 PM

I agree with this sentiment. Especially when it comes to fine British sporting arms. They were quite regularly sent back to the maker for refurbishment after hunting trips or hunting seasons. Thus, even highly “original” examples have likely already seen some restoration since new.

The key is that the restoration is done properly by a skilled craftsman using proper techniques. As mentioned above, poorly done restorations can ruin a gun. I also prefer a sympathetic restoration which leaves the gun looking like it should look if it had been well cared for in original condition as opposed to having everything over polished such that it looks like a shiny new penny. These over blown restorations can harm value in my opinion.

In the case of this rifle, my opinion is that a proper restoration is a no brainer. It is currently appears to thst in somewhat poor condition having been well used but not abused and doesn’t appear pitted or damaged. It is also a rare and high end example. Thus, I think a proper sympathetic restoration will make it a real knockout. Just one guy’s opinion…

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