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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 177
Loc: United States
New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle.
      #376676 - 13/05/23 08:41 AM

Hi Gang
I recently won an auction for a Steyr 1893 stalking rifle. Today was the day that I was able to pick it up and give it a thorough inspection. I hoped that this will end up being a "diamond in the rough" and my initial inspection suggests that it will be. I'm going to have to do a complete conservation of the rifle going forward.
This rifle is chambered in 6.5x53R and appears to be Birmingham proofed. There are no markings to give any indication as to who made the rifle but it is well constructed. The bore is in excellent condition.
The wood and metal have been covered in some form of preservative that was thickly applied. So far, I've tried NAPTHA and Turpentine but neither one softened the material. I can see hints of tiger stripe on the left side of the buttstock. I'm going to try mineral spirits tomorrow. I suspect that I will need to boil the metal parts to assist in removal as well as rust conversion. Pitting of the metal is only present on areas that were under the forearm.
I've included pictures of the proof marks and stampings under the receiver. If anybody has any information regarding the proof marks or other stampings on the receiver, I would love to learn more info about this little rifle.
I will post more pics as I start down this rabbit hole. Thanks for looking.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376677 - 13/05/23 08:54 AM

That’s a George Gibbs built rifle.
I made an offer on it but wasn’t high enough apparently!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 177
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Huvius]
      #376678 - 13/05/23 08:56 AM

Hi Huvius. Thanks for your response. It's not marked George Gibbs. How do you know that he is the builder? Can you determine a proof date?

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376680 - 13/05/23 11:03 AM

The B pre-fix on the serial number means its a Gibbs. I have a very similar one which also had a hideous dark coating on the outside. I had to use paint stripper which then revealed a magnificent piece of timber underneath. Yours might be very nice as well.

The side mounted peep sight looks interesting, could you take some closeup pics of that sight.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Huvius
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376682 - 13/05/23 11:38 AM

Matt is correct on the 'B' prefix identifier.
As I understand it, the 'B' denotes a rifle rebarreled by Gibbs. This one, of course also restocked by Gibbs.
I've had a couple like this - one a takedown.
They are really great and under appreciated rifles - yours, with a good bore should be a joy to use!

Cases can be made from 303 British and the dies are the same as 6.5X54 Mannlicher. I have a set I'd sell you as well as some bullets if you have trouble sourcing them.


My brother was quite successful using denatured alcohol to strip an antique chair which had a dark, heavy coating similar to this.
May give that a try,

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Huvius]
      #376683 - 13/05/23 12:42 PM

Thanks for the great news guys! This little rifle spoke to me. I thought that it was a great looking firearm but now I'm very happy to find out that it is a Gibbs rifle. It will make be right at home with my 1903,1905,1908 and 1910 Mannlichers.
I added some pics of the aperture sight. I don't see any markings on it. It looks like a precursor to the Lyman 36 that's on my 1905MS.
Waidmannsheil, you are correct about the hideous goo coating on the stock. I tried every solvent that I have at home to try and soften it. Paint stripper seems to be the only thing that will work. There definitely is some tiger stripe on the stock which will look beautiful when done. I would like to make the stain and finish look as close to the original as possible. I'll need to study some photos of original Gibbs rifles for ideas. I know that most British gun makers tended to have a reddish color on their stocks but I'm not seeing that on this rifle.
Thanks for the offer for the dies Huvius but I have 6.5x54 dies for my 1903. I might be interested in the bullets that you have.

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LRF
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Posts: 307
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376685 - 13/05/23 09:41 PM

fjrdoc, Very nice purchase, congratulations. Will look forward to seeing your conservation progress. I hope you post periodic updates. I personally have a thing for these old Steyr's.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: LRF]
      #376686 - 13/05/23 09:44 PM

As Waidmannsheil and Huvius alredy noted, B 1930 is a George Gibbs, Bristol, serial number. Gibbs used the B prefix on guns they made on bought in barreled actions, stocked, sighted and finished by themselves. The distinctive stock shape denounces it as a Gibbs Mannlicher too. OEWG Steyr sold production overruns of military contract rifles through their agent Auguste Schriever & Co, Liege, Belgium, to the civilian market worldwide. British gunmakers sporterised these rifles in various degrees. Gibbs tore them down to the barreled action and restocked them. Many “name” British gunmakers like Rigby and Purdey bought in such conversins from Gibbs and signed them with their own names and serial numbers.
Yoiur rifle is a Mannlicher model 1892 as originally made for Romania. “Steyr 1893” is the date of manufacture. As Romania changed their order to the simplified model 93 soon, many 92 rifles found their way to the UK. It is a quite early Gibbs conversion as the low serial number shows. 33 is a Steyr factory assembly or serial number. -5 is a factory marking for precise barrel fitting.
About that “black gunk” on your stock: Gibbs often “ebonized” their stock then, that is they stained them black after a then fashion. You may find such black stocks not only on Gibbs Mannlichers, but on Gibbs Farquarsons and shotguns too. Here is a photo of my later Gibbs Mannlicher on a 1899 dated Dutch contract barreled action, Gibbs serial number B 3085. Note the remains of the worn black stock finish.

Another one, from the net. Blackish stock too:

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 177
Loc: United States
Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #376687 - 13/05/23 10:25 PM

Thank you so much for the information kuduae. Very informative. I'm a happy camper!
The firing pin nut on my rifle has been dovetailed to accept a aperture sight like the top picture. I have experience with bolt shroud sights as well as the aperture that is on my rifle now. I like both types but I do prefer the type thats on this rifle as it doesn't interfere with use of the safety.
I suspect that this stock was ebonized but the goo is also on metal components. The metal should be fairly easy to clean. I will need to thoroughly strip all the finish off of the wood.
I assume that this rifle is nitro proofed but I just want to be safe.

Edited by fjrdoc (13/05/23 10:26 PM)

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376688 - 13/05/23 11:13 PM

Yes, nitro proofed.
It is chambered in the 6.5 Dutch Mannlicher aka 6.5X53R

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 177
Loc: United States
Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Huvius]
      #376689 - 13/05/23 11:56 PM

I figured but I haven't dealt with any antique British firearms before. I was able to source some stripper clips and 6.5x53R brass. I will try my hand at case forming for this rifle later. I do make cases for my 1905, 1908 and 1910 MS. This caliber will require some additional steps.
It is such a trim, light handling rifle. I am anxious to see how she performs at the range and even in the field. My 6.5x54 MS is a tack driver and it is such a pleasant cartridge to shoot.

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LRF
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376690 - 14/05/23 01:05 AM

This is my project based on a Dutch Mannlicher marked "Steyr 1895"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: LRF]
      #376692 - 14/05/23 01:16 AM

I like it (them). Imho, with all those leaves.
Of course, different eyes, different needs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 177
Loc: United States
Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: DarylS]
      #376698 - 14/05/23 04:26 AM

Beautiful looking 1895 LRE. These boxed magazine Steyrs have really grown on me. I've been stripping and steaming the stock today. I'm very happy with my progress. I'm not trying t make this rifle look new again. I just want to make her look like a well-maintained original. The wood does have some lovely tiger stripe which should finish nicely. More pics to follow when I'm done with wood prep.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376699 - 14/05/23 05:24 AM

Here you may find excellent infos on the history, development and military use of the
Romanian M92 = Dutch M95 and Romanian M93 = Portuguese M96 Mannlicher actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhuuFnaCMOw&list=PLJvsSlrbdhn5v8AuvAZuOYJ5BgEEoDdqm&index=51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUo6d9ma...m&index=134
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYReGvJe...m&index=134
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0lXFAXz...m&index=135

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376702 - 14/05/23 11:13 AM

Quote:

If anybody has any information regarding the proof marks or other stampings on the receiver, I would love to learn more info about this little rifle.




All I have is to agree with Kuduae's info about the '-05' mark. An original barrel installed at the Steyr (OWGS) factory would have a corresponding '+05'.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376706 - 14/05/23 08:54 PM

I spent a large part of the day yesterday working on the stock. Black goo was stripped off and then I got to work with y trusty travel iron and a wet rag. I steamed out a lot of small dings and scrapes. I don't think that I can move the remaing dents any more than I have already.Overall, I would say that the wood looks pretty good for a 130 year-old working gun.
Next step will be staining to even out the finish. I generally like to use leather dye and I have an assortment that I mix and match to suit the piece of wood. I probably will give a coat of yellow first to help make the tiger stripe pop. Medium brown afterwards. I needed to blend some colors on the left side of the forearm where somebody previously stripped finish a little aggressively. I think that it blended nicely and should be almost invisible after I stain all the wood brown.
I think that I got lucky with this rifle. The wood is going to look really nice when finished.





Edited by fjrdoc (14/05/23 10:00 PM)

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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376709 - 14/05/23 11:27 PM

I'm happy with the staining. I kept the stock on the darker side to try and look more authentic.The color matches some antique chairs that I have of the same vintage. I'll let it dry in the sun and then finish it. I would image that the Brits would have used an oil finish. I've messed around with oil finishes in the past. However, since I take my rifles out into the woods and hunt with the, I will use a semi-gloss or satin poly finish for durability and protection.





Pictures look darker than real life. I thought outdoor photos would capture the color better.

Edited by fjrdoc (14/05/23 11:41 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376729 - 15/05/23 05:17 PM

Good to hear that the paint stripper worked, the wood underneath looks good.
Just remember that the stock will have flat top checkering so if you want to keep it original, then that will have to be kept that way. Lots of people re-cut it to diamond checkering but that spoils the gun in my opinion.

As to the barreled action, I spoke to Mark Crudington of Gibbs regarding those guns and he informed me that the guns were indeed stocked and sighted on barrel actions. The barrel which was military profile and longer was removed and then turned to that common straight taper and shortened to 25" or 26" and then refitted.
A barrel with that length and taper is actually needed on that action as because of the magazine box which extends downwards preventing you from carrying the rifle with your hand on the floor plate like most rifles. However with the correct barrel length and profile which puts the weight in the correct position, the rifle can be easily carried perfectly balanced with the hand just in front of the magazine. A 22" barrel with reduced taper would casue the gun to tip backwards.

Bertram does make brass with the correct headstamp if you don't wish to form your own. If you form your own just remember that you will have to chamfer the outside edge of the rim as otherwise it will foul on the inside radius of your En-Bloc clip.

The cartridge was officially designated as 6.5x53R but it was known as a 6.5 Mannlicher by Kynoch and was headstamped as such.
The rifles were known as 256 Mannlicher with the 256 being the bore diameter of the barrel while bullets are of course 0.264". I don't believe that any cases were ever headstamped 256 Mannlicher.
( Its the same situation as the 7x57/275 Rigby scenario which has been much spoken of on this forum)

Check the headspace as they are always excessive as in around 0.018" so if you are forming brass you will need to open the neck up to case diameter and then form a neck and shoulder to suit your headspace. If you have a factory un-fired round checking headspace is easy with packing tape.

Woodleigh did make 160 grain RNSN projectiles but due to the factory fire won't be making those again for a little while.
I use the Hornady 160 grain RNSN projectiles with great success.

Hope some of this helps and thanks for the pics of the sight.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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fjrdoc
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376740 - 15/05/23 11:29 PM

Hi Matt thanks for the great info. You are correct about the flat checkering. I have decided to leave the checkering as it is. There are some areas of compression and missing flats but I'm OK with that. The barrel length and external magazine info was interesting and it makes sense.
I have some Hornady 160 RNSN projectiles as well as some lighter spire points that I use in my 1903MS. I will be careful with the headspacing and pay attention to it. Thanks

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DarylS
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: fjrdoc]
      #376742 - 16/05/23 01:35 AM

This is especially important if you want your brass to last:

"Check the headspace as they are always excessive as in around 0.018" so if you are forming brass you will need to open the neck up to case diameter and then form a neck and shoulder to suit your headspace. If you have a factory un-fired round checking headspace is easy with packing tape."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: DarylS]
      #376743 - 16/05/23 03:55 AM

The 6.5x53R aka .256 Mannlicher headspaces on the rim, not on the case shoulder like rimless cartridges. You may use patches of tape on the head to check. If a case with two layers of tape does not allow the bolt to close, headspace is ok. The chambers may be bored a bit deep. This was done intentionally to allow for oversized/dented cases or some dirt. Factory spec cases will simply fireform on first firing. But when reloading such fireformed cases, adjust the sizing die so it does not push the new shoulder back to factory standards. This prevents case stretching, case head separations and prolongs case life substantially. When making 6.5x53R cases from .303 brass, you may have to reduce the rim diameter slightly. Some individual rifles take the .303 rim as is, others don’t, but the reduced rims feed better through the available Dutch and Portuguese clips.

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fjrdoc
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #376744 - 16/05/23 04:55 AM

Great info. Thanks to all. I did pick up some Dutch stripper clips which work fine in the rifle. I am going to mic the rim diameter and check it to specs. I think that I will need to reduce them a bit.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #376745 - 16/05/23 06:46 AM

Kuduae, you are correct that the cartridge headspaces on the rim not the shoulder, however I have three different 256 Mannlichers and all have between 0.014" and 0.018" headspace which invariably leads to head seperation especially if using Kynoch factory ammunition as it has a wall thickness of about 0.010" thinner than most other brass.

If reloading unless the die is set so that upon sizing the case the shoulder remains to do the headspacing rather than the rim you will have very short case life and/or case splitting.

I have measured headspace on two other 256 Mannlichers and they were in the same range as the rest.

I have also measured headspace using Bertram Brass, S&B Brass and factory Military ammunition and the results were the same give or take a thou.

However if the headspace is corrected than there are no head separations or cracks. After firing some Kynoch factory ammunition in a rifle with the correct headspace I cut open a case lengthwise and measured the wall thickness and it hadn't thinned at all at any point.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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DarylS
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Re: New Steyr 1893 Project Rifle. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376749 - 16/05/23 08:17 AM

ditto.

A stiff wire, with 90 degree bend of 1/8" of so, sharped, is the easiest way of checking for web stretching, leading to cast head separations. You can 'feel" the stretch groove easily.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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