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Louis
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Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62
      #330143 - 16/07/19 12:26 AM

Africa Queen

I found by chance the below Mannlicher Schoenauer High Velocity model in cal. 9,3x62 in Pretoria (South Africa) while on a business trip in August 2015 and I bought it from the estate of the late Dr Lucas Potgieter, who had passed away some years before. Lucas Potgieter had been, at least for people of the older generations, a firearms and hunting expert in RSA and had also set-up the rifle shop called Die Kruivat / The Powder Keg in Roodeport, near Pretoria. The rifle, which had obviously seen much use, was in good condition and the Antinit steel barrel was pristine; it had been manufactured in Austria in 1936 and probably exported shortly after to SA as the barrel is engraved with “G.T. DU PLESSIS – TRANSVAAL – 1937”.

Buying this rifle had been easy, then trouble started. The third-party intermediary that I had commissioned in SA for exporting the rifle and that I had paid upfront discovered first that as this rifle had never been registered by the SA Central Firearms Registry, it had no legal existence in SA and could therefore not be exported to France; that’s at least what I was told. All numerous amicable options that were subsequently tested for getting the rifle out of country failed and the situation never progressed until June 2017 when I hired a SA lawyer for resolving the issue with my local third-party intermediary; the situation was then miraculously unlocked by threat of legal action, all export clearances were granted and, in February 2018 the rifle was delivered to me in France, two years and half after having been bought!

The long awaited Mannlicher Schoenauer then went for rejuvenation to the rifle maker the world envies to the French and who I will not name owing to his well-known modesty. I got it back factory-new some time ago with well oil-polished wood (the stock had been coated in SA with a protective but ugly varnish), a new deep blueing, a leather-covered butt pad (replacing the previous rubber one), to mention only the major parts of this “once in a lifetime” check-up. I also had the 4x32 Zeiss Diatal riflescope the rifle was equipped with a 1,5-6x36 Zeiss Diavari one that I have had for some years waiting for such a project.

Photo 1


Photo 2


Photo 3


Photo 4


Photo 5


Photo 6


Photo 7


Only minimal alterations from the factory model were made in SA by previous owners: a rifle scope side mount installed and the steel butt plate with trap door was removed but could easily be reinstalled.
Photo 8




This rifle was delivered with the Antinit steel barrel with full rib option, if we refer to the Stoeger 1939 catalog previously shared by Rothhammer.
Photo 9


The initial owner
Photo 10


Du Plessis is a French-sounding name and the family probably came along with the French “Huguenots” that emigrated to southern Africa in the very early XVIII century. There are, according to online searches, many Du Plessis now living in SA but if any of the Forum’s South African members could by chance get some information on who G.T. du Plessis was, then I would be much grateful for that.

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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DarylS
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Louis]
      #330147 - 16/07/19 01:01 AM

What a lovely piece of history to own, Louis.

Very heavy barrel.

Would you be so kind as to tell us about the high velocity load? I've never heard of it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Louis]
      #330152 - 16/07/19 03:28 AM

Quote:

Africa Queen




Magnifique Louis

Quote:

Buying this rifle had been easy, then trouble started. The third-party intermediary that I had commissioned in SA for exporting the rifle and that I had paid upfront discovered first that as this rifle had never been registered by the SA Central Firearms Registry, it had no legal existence in SA and could therefore not be exported to France; that’s at least what I was told. All numerous amicable options that were subsequently tested for getting the rifle out of country failed and the situation never progressed until June 2017 when I hired a SA lawyer for resolving the issue with my local third-party intermediary; the situation was then miraculously unlocked by threat of legal action, all export clearances were granted and, in February 2018 the rifle was delivered to me in France, two years and half after having been bought!




Well done. Sometimes it takes so long with unexpected complications. But in your case a crook in between.


Quote:

The long awaited Mannlicher Schoenauer then went for rejuvenation to the rifle maker the world envies to the French and who I will not name owing to his well-known modesty.




Is this modest best in France gunmaker well known here on NE?


Good luck with your new rifle. Hope it serves you well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: DarylS]
      #330153 - 16/07/19 03:42 AM

Congratulations!

hart to believe you can find a better and prettier african queen. to bring it home was probably real nerv racking but now its done. the well known gun maker did a good work like allways.
the rifle would having a honour place in any african battery, no doubt.

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Louis
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: lancaster]
      #330163 - 16/07/19 05:39 AM

Dear All, a collective reply, if you don't mind:

Daryl
• The 60 cm / 24 in banded barrel looks heavy but the rifle is not, only 3,450 kg unscoped. Similar rifles that I own weigh the same: FN Herstal (1957) in .375 H&H @ 3,7 kg and Mauser type A (1936) in 9,3x62 @ 3,550 kg. Even my .22 MAS 45 hunting rifle (http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=248326&page=0&fpart=5&vc=1 posted on 8 July 2019) weighs 3,4 kg!
• I can’t answer to your reloading question as I don’t reload – unfortunately, and only shoot RWS factory ammunition. Other European members such as Mouse in Slovenia (hunts with a 9,3x62), Lancaster and Kuduae in Germany and Joel Dorléac in France may answer.

Nitrox
• Yes, you know well Joël, the French rifle maker the world envies to the French!

Lars
• Thank you for your kind comments.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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kuduae
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: lancaster]
      #330164 - 16/07/19 05:44 AM

Quote:

Would you be so kind as to tell us about the high velocity load? I've never heard of it.




The "High Velocity" here does not refer to the load. Instead, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1925 model with the longer magazine to take cartridges up to 80 mm = 3.15" oal like 7x64, 8x60, .30-06 or 9.3x62 was often called the "High Velocity Model" or "Hochrasanz-Repetierbüchse" in contemporary Steyr catalogs. At least, there is no hint to a special load or sighting visible on the rifle.

But there were indeed German 9.3x62 "high velocity" loads in the 1930s, sometimes even called "Magnum" then.
While the "standard", traditional load was a 285 gr bullet at about 2345 fps, DWM also offered a 231 gr psp at 2540 fps and a 262 gr strong jacket at 2525 fps. RWS had a 258 gr H-jacket at 2697 fps.

Taylor in "African Rifles and Cartridges" complained about these offerings, quote:
"But I cannot see that there was any necessity for boosting the velocity of this cartridge; on the contrary, without widely advertising the fact they intended to do so, I reckoned it unfair on, and even dangerous for, the thousands of users of this shell, most of whom could not read German even if the new ballistics were quoted on the boxes of shells."
Another classic case of an Englishman not understanding metric numbers. At least bullet weight and type + powder charge were noted on the then 10 shot German boxes.


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93x64mm
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: kuduae]
      #330169 - 16/07/19 06:20 AM

Louis,
firstly well done for your perseverance on fighting for your rights & property, your 'African Queen' certainly has charm & grace in aplenty!
Anyone who purchases a firearm from another country & then gets it exported to their own is relying on faith that a lot of people will not only do their jobs, but properly & with good intent as well.
You can now certainly breathe easier after all that has transpired, looking forward to your range report & new adventures when you are able to!
Brilliant refurbishment by the way, you couldn't have got a better job done anywhere else - the results speak for themselves!
Interesting info Kuduae about those old 9.3x62 loads, different loads for different species perhaps?


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Igorrock
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #330170 - 16/07/19 06:55 AM

Very nice Mannlicher, indeed.

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kuduae
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #330175 - 16/07/19 09:55 AM

Quote:

those old 9.3x62 loads, different loads for different species perhaps?



Of course, different game species and different hunting cnditions. Same reasons why the .375 H&H was offered with bullet weights of 235, 270 and 300 gr.


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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: kuduae]
      #330181 - 16/07/19 03:08 PM

Louis, very , very nice and well for persevering .

Best
Eric

--------------------
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Rothhammer1
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Louis]
      #330183 - 16/07/19 06:10 PM

Quote:

Africa Queen

I found by chance the below Mannlicher Schoenauer High Velocity model in cal. 9,3x62 in Pretoria (South Africa)...

This rifle was delivered with the Antinit steel barrel with full rib option, if we refer to the Stoeger 1939 catalog previously shared by Rothhammer.




Indeed. A great find, fortunate purchase, and now with the finest restoration.

Here are relevant images from the '39 Stoeger. 'Antinit with rib' is the most expensive cost option on the list, three times the cost of 'takedown model extra':




On the topic of the African Queen, here are a couple of pix of Director John Huston with Mannlicher Schönauers that he purchased for use while making the film in Africa:



John Huston, with MS, flanked by some fella named Bogart and his young bride, 'Betty'.

Anjelica Huston has a vacation house and ranch near where I live. If I ever run across her, I'll ask if she has her Dad's rifles!

Here is a ballistics chart for Mausers that lists the 9.3X62 (from '39 Stoeger):



From the DWM chart:







Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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DarylS
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #330198 - 17/07/19 02:50 AM

Thanks Louis and kuduae. I now understand.
When the 9.3x62 first came out, according to John Taylor, the 286gr. bullets, both soft and solid were running 2,175fps from test rifles.

In about 1925 or so, the velocity was increased to 2,340fps or thereabouts, again, from test barrels.
Taylor noted, this higher velocity was not needed.

I thought perhaps this loading is what MS was thinking about.
Thanks for answering my query.

My 1929 Husqvarna 9.3x57 actually made 2,170fps from it's 23.4" bl. using 45.0gr. H4895 and 300gr. RN's resized from .375" Hornady bullets. This loading should do as well as Taylor's "early" 9.3x62 ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: DarylS]
      #330199 - 17/07/19 03:18 AM

Beautiful rifle.. congrats..

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rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #330202 - 17/07/19 03:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Africa Queen












Great stuff. Thanks.

I had a Belgian father-in-law that was there during the filming of The African Queen.

Peter Viertel's book about the filming is good, the Eastwood movie less so...but they did give Clint a real Mannlicher-Schoenauer (the rifle on the book cover looks like a Krag).





Edited by rpeck (17/07/19 12:49 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: rpeck]
      #330208 - 17/07/19 05:23 AM

Quote:

When the 9.3x62 first came out, according to John Taylor, the 286gr. bullets, both soft and solid were running 2,175fps from test rifles.
In about 1925 or so, the velocity was increased to 2,340fps or thereabouts, again, from test barrels.
Taylor noted, this higher velocity was not needed. I thought perhaps this loading is what MS was thinking about.



I don't know where Taylor got his "2175 fps" muzzle velocity of the 286 gr bullet from the 9.3x62. The oldest numbers I found in German catalogs were 2230 fps (26" test barrel) and 2270 fps (28" test barrel). The ca. 1930 ICI / Kynoch catalog credited it with 2250 fps. In the 1930s this had increased to 2340 fps, a gain of merely 90 fps. Today, 9.3x62 286 gr factory loads are advertised at: Sellier & Bellot 2280 fps, Norma 2362 fps and PPU 2264 fps.

Rather, Taylor was thinking about the RWS high speed load with the 258 gr H-jacket at 2697 fps. On page 141 of his book he shows a picture of this load:

Due to his inability to handle metric numbers Taylor erred here in several ways. He did not note that the RWS H-jacket was lighter, 258 vs. 286 gr. The velocities he gives for both bullets are way too low. The RWS H-jacketed bullet was sort of a semi-partition. It featured a soft lead core front, separated from a hard one in the rear by a deep fold of the jacket. The front part was intended to expand and break up into shrapnels to increase damage inside soft skinned game, while the rear half did not deform and continued penetration. There were copper capped and plain lead nose versions available in other calibers, but in 9.3 mm it was offered in lead nose form only.


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DarylS
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: kuduae]
      #330218 - 17/07/19 12:15 PM

Again, we are enlightened. Thank you.

Obviously I misunderstood, or had a memory lapse. After all, it is only 20 years since I read the book.

IIRC, now, Steven Z. and I both achieved around 2,519fps with 286's in our 9.3x62 chambered rifles, using BLC2 powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: DarylS]
      #330225 - 17/07/19 07:06 PM

Absolute ripper and extra special with the full length rib and express sights. I bet you are glad that you persisted.

One of the chaps in the BGRC is having similar dramas after winning a 500NE double rifle from Verney Carron worth $20000 in a raffle at the international shoot in South Africa. It has been a year now since he won the rifle and is having the same sort of troubles that you had with all sorts of excuses about government departments etc. I may mention your approach to solving the problem to him next time I see him.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Louis
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #330228 - 17/07/19 08:23 PM

Matt, please do so; excellent Pretoria-based lawyer I would be happy to recommend and much palatable fees.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Louis]
      #330229 - 17/07/19 09:16 PM

Snoobab bureaucracy at 'work' most probably.

Is it an issue of desired baksheesh?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: Louis]
      #330230 - 17/07/19 10:03 PM

Thanks Louis, I would appreciate that. If you can forward on the details to me I pass them on to the chap with the rifle in question.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Africa Queen - 1936 High Velocity model in 9,3x62 [Re: rpeck]
      #330257 - 18/07/19 05:45 PM

Quote:


Peter Viertel's book about the filming is good, the Eastwood movie less so...but they did give Clint a real Mannlicher-Schoenauer (the rifle on the book cover looks like a Krag).









--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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