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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Take down pin
      #317469 - 23/06/18 07:22 PM

Does anyone know of a source for the spring loaded pin which connects barrel to stock of the "Takedown" model M/S? I recently acquired an otherwise complete Model 1908 in which the pin had been replaced with a screw, thereby defeating the purpose of the take down process without the use of tools.

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casper50
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317474 - 23/06/18 09:39 PM

A machinist can make them but would need one to copy I'd guess. I bought an extra off of ebay a few years ago.

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
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Re: Take down pin [Re: casper50]
      #317475 - 23/06/18 10:01 PM

Xausa, please see answer on my following post http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post301010
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
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Re: Take down pin [Re: Louis]
      #317476 - 23/06/18 11:07 PM

Merci beaucoup, Louis! I hadn't noticed your post until you called my attention to it.

Casper, just out of curiosity, how was the pin you bought on eBay described?


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317489 - 24/06/18 11:05 AM


Here's an image of one (don't recall where I got it):



It's good to know the source for replacements.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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casper50
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Re: Take down pin [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317491 - 24/06/18 04:12 PM

And at that price it's not even made of gold or platnum. Wow.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Take down pin [Re: casper50]
      #317496 - 24/06/18 11:47 PM

When my friend and mentor, Harry Creighton, was a young man during the depression he used to enjoy testing his marksmanship skills by shooting rats at the local dump. His weapon of choice was a Model 75 Winchester topped with a Unertl Small Game scope.

One day he was the subject of attention of a small boy. After he had dispatched several rats in a row, the boy asked, "Mister, is that thing on top of the gun what makes it shoot so good." Harry admitted that it was. "How much does it cost?" the boy asked. Harry replied, "$35.00".

The boy thought for while and finally said, "You know, at that price, I think I could afford to miss a few."

That pretty well describes my feeling toward Herr Miedler's take down pin.


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xausa
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317497 - 25/06/18 12:09 AM

I have a friend who may be able to duplicate the pin, using the dimensions so kindly posted by Rothhammer. However, I need someone to explain to me how the spring catch works and how it is fastened to the pin.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317502 - 25/06/18 01:51 AM

Xausa

Couple things I see here

Your rifle, the missing pin - replaced by a screw...

Did someone take a tap and thread your takedown pin journal to accept a screw?

The pin pictured in Rothhammer's post above, it's a wedge.
I would expect these pins to be fitted to their rifles, similarly to how forend iron pins tend to take a bit of fitting. That image would be a great guide, but I wouldn't be surprised if some more or less material somewhere along that tapered pin would be needed for a proper fit.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317503 - 25/06/18 02:10 AM

Scarcity drives prices up and, should Numrich had wagon-loads of take-down pins in stock, they would be worth nothing. Unfortunately for all of us, Mannlicher Schoenauer addicts, there are almost no take-down pins available on the market and apart from Casper who was lucky enough to find one on Ebay some time go, I don't know of many in that situation.

Herr Miedler take-down pins obviously command a high price, however they fit perfectly and certainly involve a lot of man-hours for being produced from scratch; hence the price that I was happy to pay as I had no other option. I also sent Herr Miedler a take-down pin which spring and lock were missing and he set a new spring on that take-down pin. Quality has a price and, as a American business friend of mine tells "If you pay peanuts, you'll get monkey"!

Anyway if you can find in the US any more cost effective solution that would work, then count me in and I will buy several pieces in order to keep them in stock.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317504 - 25/06/18 02:13 AM

Quote:

Did someone take a tap and thread your takedown pin journal to accept a screw?




That appears to be the case. However, I have not removed it, for fear that it would not go back if held in place some other way.

You may well be right about fitting. Casper might be able to answer that question, since he bought an original one. Did it fit whatever rifle it was intended for, or did it require fitting? Louis reports that his replacement pin fit perfectly.


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tinker
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317506 - 25/06/18 02:34 AM

There are at least a couple of features of that pin which can be costly.

The radiused annular straight knurl on the head and the spring are the first features that show up for me.
Next is the fitting.

The amount of taper looks similar to standard taper pin taper, so a taper pin reamer might help fix your issue with the pin journal - but I'd have to look and measure to be credible. If not, a one-off tapered reamer could be made for your application and a properly proportioned replacement replica pin made to suit.

The keeper spring should be fitted to your escutcheon plate (thickness for the groove) etc, and that knurl *can* be reproduced.
It's just time. Someone's time.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317507 - 25/06/18 02:36 AM

It fits in the only takedown that I have left. First time that I've tried it. It was bought as an extra just because I saw it. Paid around $30 for it.

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tinker
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Re: Take down pin [Re: casper50]
      #317508 - 25/06/18 02:41 AM

Mike can you please show a photo or two of the small end of the pin where the spring is fitted in place?
I'd like to see how it's kept in place

I think a view of the pin opposite (180 degrees) of the spring might help.


And you have calipers or a micrometer, don't you?
I might ask you for a couple dimensions.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317511 - 25/06/18 06:19 AM

Quote:



I think a view of the pin opposite (180 degrees) of the spring might help.




I just found out where I had 'swiped' that image of the pin. It was from a post to this 'site by member Deeangeo on July 27, 2015. Here's another from the same post:



The pin simply pushes into place and clicks shut. The notch in the sprung portion is pressed outward by spring tension to engage the thickness of the escutcheon plate. To remove, press the knurled part of the sprung lever with finger or thumb and pull out pin.

To 'take down'; remove magazine, turn lever in front of trigger guard, pull forend pin (as described above), lift barreled action up and out.



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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casper50
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317512 - 25/06/18 06:20 AM

https://imgur.com/a/mxqrGBC

top photo - pin is 180 degrees from spring latch.
bottom photo - pin comes through the end of the spring latch.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Take down pin [Re: casper50]
      #317513 - 25/06/18 06:38 AM

Quote:

https://imgur.com/a/mxqrGBC

top photo - pin is 180 degrees from spring latch.
bottom photo - pin comes through the end of the spring latch.









--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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tinker
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Re: Take down pin [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317514 - 25/06/18 06:54 AM

And it's stamped 62
Last two of serial number?
Is that a view of your rifle, Rothhammer?

The little round pin and the rest of the spring are no doubt all one piece of spring steel.

That should help xausa get his part made.

If this is indeed your rifle, and if you have a caliper and/or micrometer, can you verify some dimensions?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317516 - 25/06/18 07:15 AM

It's my rifle. Have to do it tomorrow. Tell me which demensions you need.

Edited by casper50 (25/06/18 07:16 AM)


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317517 - 25/06/18 07:27 AM

Quote:

And it's stamped 62
Last two of serial number?
Is that a view of your rifle, Rothhammer?

The little round pin and the rest of the spring are no doubt all one piece of spring steel.

That should help xausa get his part made.

If this is indeed your rifle, and if you have a caliper and/or micrometer, can you verify some dimensions?




Those were Casper's images, I posted them via Picr.de .

I noticed the '62' in his image as well, and didn't recall ever noticing a number on the pin of my M1910.

Now I have mine in hand and there is no number. The knurling on my 'spring release' is also different, consisting of parallel lines rather than cross hatching. As far as I know it's original. The rifle was proofed in 1922 and Grand Dad acquired it about 1932 in Ceylon.

What dimensions do you require?

The dimensions on mine match those of the image above except that the 'Cap Dimension' of mine is .445", not .466" as the one pictured. Also, my 'spring height' is not as much. I don't know why the one pictured (with dimensions) is protruding so far.

I can't seem to get a decent scan of mine, and I'm not set up for 'macro' photography (though I should be). This at least does show the parallel lines on my spring release, rather than cross hatching as on the others. The 'Cap' on mine has the reeding as the others:



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tinker
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Re: Take down pin [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317519 - 25/06/18 08:39 AM

Since we archive these discussions, it will be good to have as complete a set of data as we can for posterity.

-pin diameter at small end and at big end
-length of business end of the pin, from flange to end
-length, flange to face of head of the pin
-thickness of the head of the pin
-diameter of the head of the pin
-diameter of the flange
-thickness of the spring catch
-width of the cut in the spring near the pin's head
-dimensions of the thumb/push pad for the spring
-confirmation that the pin has a straight taper (elementary)
-for that spring, diameter of the little keeper/cross pin
-distance of that little cross pin from the small dia. end of the part

That should get us close to a good working drawing.


At market value of €250.00 plus wait time plus international shipping it might help someone else get closer to having a replacement part made for their rifle.


With that information I know I could get to work on one.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317520 - 25/06/18 10:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Did someone take a tap and thread your takedown pin journal to accept a screw?




That appears to be the case. However, I have not removed it, for fear that it would not go back if held in place some other way.

You may well be right about fitting. Casper might be able to answer that question, since he bought an original one. Did it fit whatever rifle it was intended for, or did it require fitting? Louis reports that his replacement pin fit perfectly.




Here's how they fit (images from a Gunauction listing):





Notice how the fit of the pin and the escutcheon plates is rather precise. As replacement pins were available from Steyr, and we are dealing with Pre WW2 Mannlicher Schoenauer craftsmanship, I rather suspect they were all the same dimensions as to length, taper, 'notch'.

For yours, if those escutcheon plates have been buggered to accommodate a screw in place of the proper pin, It's likely you'll have to fabricate new plates with the proper sized holes.

If only it was 1939, a new 'Spring Pin' would cost one dollar from Stoeger (about $17.50 adjusted for inflation), the same as a sight protector. The spring for the pin was another $1.25, new cleaning rods were a whole $3.50:







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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Take down pin [Re: xausa]
      #317521 - 25/06/18 10:24 AM

Quote:

I have a friend who may be able to duplicate the pin, using the dimensions so kindly posted by Rothhammer. However, I need someone to explain to me how the spring catch works and how it is fastened to the pin.







Hard to see, here, but #85 appears to be the pin without spring (notice 'slot' lengthwise, just below center) and #86 shows the shape of the 'spring'. Spring seems to be one piece machined spring steel that simply fits in the pin's hole and slot.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Take down pin [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317522 - 25/06/18 10:50 AM

Quote:


Hard to see here, but #85 appears to be the pin without spring (notice 'slot' lengthwise, just below center) and #86 shows the shape of the 'spring'. Spring seems to be one piece machined spring steel that simply fits in the pin's hole and slot





That was my assumption earlier

Quote:

...
The little round pin and the rest of the spring are no doubt all one piece of spring steel.

...






With the dimensions I requested here, we are very close to having all we need to make the part.

The spring in Mike's pin looks like it has some cracks forming near the little pin.
I wouldn't attempt to remove it unless I was planning on replacing it!


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1340
Loc: Alaska
Re: Take down pin [Re: tinker]
      #317529 - 26/06/18 02:59 AM

My pin measures:
Overall length = 1.348
Cap dia = .443
Collar dia = .250
spring height = .232
pin dia
cap end = .194
middle = .182
tip = .172


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