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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: DarylS]
      #309470 - 25/12/17 09:12 AM

The Speer 235 grain projectiles feed perfectly in the 1910.

Bertram makes brass with both 9.5x57MS and 375NE headstamp.

SHM and Horneber also make brass.


Waidmannsheil and merry Christmas.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: NitroX]
      #309478 - 25/12/17 03:10 PM

Quote:

All this stuff about jurisdictions banning lead core bullets is a worry. Eventually the antis will cause it to spread everywhere or far more widely.




Yes, and as we can see here, it's already gone international.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309480 - 25/12/17 03:27 PM

Quote:


No, sorry! The other way around, I sometimes used 4895 data with N140 when nothing was available. Afaik N140 is just a bit slower burning, so reduce my load by about 5%.





Perfect.

Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

That, the camaraderie, (and the pretty pictures) are what make these sites worthwhile!



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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paradox_
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: DarylS]
      #309495 - 26/12/17 12:43 PM

Rothhammer

Did you by chance try sizing up Norma 9.3x57 brass"" ???...I happen to have a quantity.
Good to know Bertram makes with both headstamps..

--------------------
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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: paradox_]
      #309498 - 26/12/17 01:52 PM

Quote:

Rothhammer

Did you by chance try sizing up Norma 9.3x57 brass"" ???...I happen to have a quantity.
Good to know Bertram makes with both headstamps..




Actually, I have 2 boxes of loaded 9.5X57 coming to me from Reeds Ammunition and Research (Oklahoma, U.S.) that are made from 9.3X57. Should arrive tomorrow. He gets fresh Norma brass that, although headstamped 9.3X57, is straight walled when he receives it. He then forms to 9.5X57.

The only brass I have worked myself for the M1910 was .35 Whelen which formed easily with a single pass in RCBS dies (after cutting brass to approximate length, finish trim after sizing). With the .35 Whelen the shoulder is pushed down from its original location giving a good solid shoulder. Many people have used .30-'06, but it must be worked in steps, I'm told.

I've noticed ads for the Bertram. Pricey stuff. I was about to buy some when I saw the Qual-Cart and figured I'd give them a try. looks nice, haven't loaded it yet.


There are several posts on the 'net from people who say they simply fireform ( )X57 brass, then load for their 9.5X57. Others say this is a very bad idea, as the brass is likely weakened at critical points during the stretch.



Note the shoulder of 9.3X57 has a width of .433 and is 1.805 from the base (in inches).
The 9.5X57 (Eley drawing) shows a shoulder of .455 at 1.825 from the base. I have some original DWM 531 of 1926 manufacture that measures .453 at the shoulder.


The 8X57 Mauser is narrower still, but not as low.

I had once ordered some '9.5X57' from another loader that had been made with 8X57 and sent it back.

They had apparently not been 'drawn out', the shoulders had not been touched by the sizing die and were low and narrow.


9.5X57 Mannlicher Schoenauer - .375 Nitro Express Rimless 2.25"


Perhaps I should have worried about the shoulder width of .35 Whelen, but those have all been fired by now (leaving a nice fireformed shoulder) except for one I kept as an example. The shoulder of brass that has been fired in my M1910 measures .459+ on my dial caliper.


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DarylS
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309514 - 27/12/17 05:12 AM

Quote:

Rothhammer



Note the shoulder of 9.3X57 has a width of .433 and is 1.805 from the base (in inches).
The 9.5X57 (Eley drawing) shows a shoulder of .455 at 1.825 from the base. I have some original DWM 531 of 1926 manufacture that measures .453 at the shoulder.


The 8X57 Mauser is narrower still, but not as low.






My 9.3x57 had the 1.825" or 1.824" length of body to the top of the shoulder, some .019" LONGER than the parent 8x57 case I used.

This excessive headspace had to be taken into account when making my 9.3x57 brass, which was not a bother or problem.

The standard shoulder measurement of Ackley IMP standard cases, is .454", same as my 9.3x62 Oberndorf Mauser's chamber and the 9.5x57 of this thread. I find that quite interesting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: DarylS]
      #309521 - 27/12/17 06:58 AM

Daryl, 9.5x57 M-S cases from my M1910 have a shoulder diameter of 11.6 mm = .456", already more than an "Ackley Improved" shoulder, according to your numbers. In a former thread I wrote the 9.5x57 M-S already being sort of an "improved" case, compared to the other x57 Mauser numbers. You suggested then "improving" the 9.5x57 M-S aka .375 Rimless NE further. Well, you would need a special reamer and special reloading dies. You would end up with just another wildcat noone else wants and a buggered collectors piece. The gains would most likely be less than 5% in powder capacity and ballistics. IMHO this is not worth all the fuss. If I want more oomp! I'll grab my 9.3x62, 9.3x74R (not much practical gain here) or my .416 Rigby instead.

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kuduae
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309532 - 27/12/17 09:48 AM

Quote:

The Speer 235 grain projectiles feed perfectly in the 1910



Yes, I know. I use them myself for training / paper punching as they are much cheaper than Barnes TTX. But they are no option to Rothammer's problem as they contain a lead core. This thread is about a leadfree bullet suitable for the 9.5x57 M-S.


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DarylS
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309533 - 27/12/17 10:22 AM

I have a .376/06IMP with a .460" shoulder and .470" base. Yes - you would need a new reamer - that's the name of the game with IMP chamberings.

I had not thought of nor would never think of re-chambering the Mann. as that would be foolish, however anyone wanting to make one up on a Mauser action, could easily do this.

I guess I wasn't explicit enough in my post. This was also before I remembered the larger shoulder diameter of the 9.5x57, pretty close to standard to an Ackley Chamber. This was again brought home through the diagrams & measurements.

The Ackley chamber is only .454" - same as my 9.3x62 is, a factory Mauser and at least one other 9.3x62I know of, a client's Styer rifle 9.3x62, not .451" as the cip #'s I saw, go.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309545 - 27/12/17 03:23 PM

Quote:

they are no option to Rothammer's problem as they contain a lead core. This thread is about a leadfree bullet suitable for the 9.5x57 M-S.




True, it was primarily an 'unleaded' thread, but I welcome all M1910 information and data from trusted sources. The information shared is appreciated, and as we know the Schoenauer magazine is particular as to what it's fed.

Does the Speer 235 need to be set out to maximum overall length as you had with the Barnes TSX? The loads I sent back to their maker with the low, narrow (8X57) shoulders had bullets of that or similar profile and they did not feed. The first round loaded would get 'jacked' as a third went in. Two in, then stuck.



On the subject of 'leaded' rounds, I just received two boxes of 9.5X57 from Reeds Ammunition Specialties (Oklahoma, U.S.). Looks great. They're made from new brass which he gets straight walled from Norma, then forms. It is headstamped Norma 9.3X57 and he stuffs with (now very hard to find) Hornady 270 gr. RNSP.



Left to Right; Reeds 9.5X57 - My (1990s) handload from unfired .35 Whelen (with Hornady 3715) - 1926 Coded DWM 531 - Fired .35 Whelen,

I loaded the M1910 with five of the Reeds cartridges, cycled flawlessly as had my old Whelen based handloads. Those Hornady 3715s are great for the leaded diet.

Click link below for Reeds;
Reeds Ammunition Specialties


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paradox_
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309546 - 27/12/17 03:48 PM

Rothhammer , what sort of accuracy are you achieving??

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: paradox_]
      #309547 - 27/12/17 04:14 PM


Beats me.

To be honest, I haven't fired the ol' girl since I moved from Northern Arizona a decade ago. A fine open sandbox that was, where one could just go out shooting on a whim. Such is not the case where I now live and I haven't loaded any MS for years.

At that time I didn't have access to a chrono or anything fancy, but I usually hit what I was looking at. Through the iron or the Gerard 'B' scope, especially when 'bench rested' on a 1970 Cadillac or Willys Jeep. Gong targets and aluminum cans feared me.

I've been gathering supplies for an eventual bout of handloading. Then I'll dig out and dust off the ol' bench. I'd like to get after some of the wild boar that we have in abundance hereabouts, thus the quest for non lead.

Previously I had sought to duplicate DWM 531 as closely as possible. Now with different projectiles in the mix, I suppose I'll have to find a good buddy with a bench rest and chrono set up to spec out loads... unless I can schmooze the info out of those more experienced here on NitroExpressForums.

Seriously, anything Kuduae recommends is A.O.K. with me. The man uses an M1910 on the job!

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309548 - 27/12/17 06:18 PM






--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (27/12/17 06:21 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309552 - 27/12/17 09:47 PM

Quote:

Does the Speer 235 need to be set out to maximum overall length as you had with the Barnes TS X? The loads I sent back to their maker with the low, narrow (8X57) shoulders had bullets of that or similar profile and they did not feed. The first round loaded would get 'jacked' as a third went in. Two in, then stuck.



In the pre-1924 Mannlicher – Schoenauer models M1903, 05, 08 and 1910 magazines the cartridges are held to the cartridge carrier rotor by flanges machined in both receiver and magazine bottom. The rear one, about 5.5 mm = .22" wide guides the cartridge bases and is no problem. The front one, about 8 mm = .32" wide, holds the bullet noses.M 1924 and later models introduced a seperate guide ring instead of the machined bullet guides. My old photo shows M1910 magazine parts on the left with the bullet guide at the front end. On the right are the simplified parts of a post-WW2 6.5x68 "Magnum" magazine without such bullet guide, but with the neck guide ring.

Cartridges for all these old M03 -10 rifles must be loaded close to maximum oal, so the bullet noses may be held to the carrier spindle by the guide flange. If, f.i. you try to convert a M03 6.5x54 into a flat shooting varmint number by loading light, short, pointed bullets that are too short to be engaged by the guide flange, the front ends of the cartridges in the magazine will drop away from the carrier spindle and jam. This is your "third round problem"! To avoid such jamming all cartridges for the old M-S models have to be seated close to maximum magazine oal, disregarding any existing crimp grooves. In the 9x56 M05 the 200 gr .35 round noses, designed for the .35 Remington, are too short if seated to the crimping groove. This applies especially to bullets with slimmer noses than the old blunt round nose, like the TTX or the Speer 235 gr. Loaded cartridges for the M1910 should at least have a Diameter of about 7.5 =.30" at 70 mm = 2.75" from the base for proper function in the magazine. Other bullets with very slim, pointed noses will be hopeless, as they may be too slim 8 mm behind the point to be held properly to the spindle.


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Viking338
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309553 - 27/12/17 10:20 PM

Just a bit off topic but to my interesting. Have been watching this with interest. My 9.5x57 I just neck up 8x57 and fire them. Now when they come out of the chamber they are noticeably straighter in the case (yes with an Ackley look about them) and a really sharp little shoulder. My rifle is built on a VZ24 action, does this make it easier than a MS? Does the bolt hold the case back and allow it to fire form properly? Or is it more about the MS magazine that is the issue? Sorry to interrupt the thread but am curious.

Kind regards

Steve


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kuduae
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Viking338]
      #309554 - 27/12/17 11:57 PM

Viking338, apparently the Mauser claw Extractor of your VZ24 holds back the cartidges to the bolt face against striker impactfor fire forming. The Mauser magazine does not depend on bullet shape and cartridge oal like the M-Sch spool magazine.

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Viking338
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309555 - 28/12/17 12:57 AM

Thank you kuduae, yes I meant extractor when I said bolt. I thought that might be the case, I just run them through the die and go shooting. I don't even get excited about keeping the fire formed ones separate from the new ones they all just feed and shoot to the same poi. Maybe I am just lucky? It is fantastic round though, I love shooting it and once formed they certainly have the taper knocked out of the case but either seem to feed perfectly

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DarylS
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Viking338]
      #309569 - 28/12/17 04:08 AM

Expanding 57mm brass out straight (or .30/06 brass for that matter) is one of the simplest of case forming jobs. One only needs a .44 magnum expander die, then grind a straight taper on the end of the expander button. This will then enter the .7mm or 8mm neck, and with a bit of Imperial die wax in the inside, expand them out to straight in one pass. I do this for my 9.3x57 and with .30/06 and .35 Whelen brass for my .375/06IMP. So simple it is absolutely ridiculous & fool hardy (a waste of money) to buy someone else's cases.

The cases are then simply necked to create a crush fit in a FL or neck sizing die to fit the chamber, whether it is a 9.3x57, 9.5x57, .35 Whelen or .375/06IMP.

The reason for necking straight is to adjust the headspace of the 'new' brass to perfectly fit the chamber of your rifle, so there is NEVER any stretching at the web. If not formed, there will be stretching, which simply continues until eventually separating. Simply necking up will create excessive headspace in many chambers, and up to .007" slop in 'factory" spec. chambers.

I also used this method for forming my 9.3x62 out of .30/06 brass way back in 1982 - still have that brass and it is still being used, after well over 12 rounds per case.

As to this statement "Others say this is a very bad idea, as the brass is likely weakened at critical points during the stretch." - that is simply not true, ie: bullshit."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309585 - 28/12/17 04:43 PM

Quote:



There are several posts on the 'net from people who say they simply fireform ( )X57 brass, then load for their 9.5X57. Others say this is a very bad idea, as the brass is likely weakened at critical points during the stretch.







Daryl;

You quoted me incompletely. The complete quote is above.

I was referring to the practice of merely fireforming raw 8X57, then loading it. As you acknowledged, this could cause stretching at the web.

Nowhere did I say that running an expander through the neck was a bad idea.


." - that is simply not true, ie: bullshit."




Thank you, however, for the information regarding modification of the .44 neck expander, as that may be valuable to others. When I formed fresh .35 Whelen I simply ran them through my RCBS FL set. Now that I am more aware of the difference in shoulder width between .35 Whelen and 9.5X57 I may employ that expander method if I form from .35 Whelen again.

As it is, I still have my previously formed (and since fired) cases and have more recently acquired a couple of boxes (bags) of Qual-Cart 9.5X57 headstamped brass and some handloads that others have formed from .30-'06 and 9.3X57.

I'm pretty well covered at this time, brass - wise.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Viking338]
      #309586 - 28/12/17 04:55 PM

Quote:

Sorry to interrupt the thread but am curious.


Steve




No trouble at all.

This is, indeed, a discussion regarding the 9.5X57 cartridge.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: kuduae]
      #309587 - 28/12/17 05:02 PM

Kuduae: " short, pointed bullets that are too short to be engaged by the guide flange, the front ends of the cartridges in the magazine will drop away from the carrier spindle and jam. This is your "third round problem"! "


Reply: That is what I had noticed (regarding the M1910). Loading the magazine out of the rifle revealed where the bullets were falling into the void and jamming in the rotor housing.




Kuduae: "Loaded cartridges for the M1910 should at least have a Diameter of about 7.5 =.30" at 70 mm = 2.75" from the base for proper function in the magazine. Other bullets with very slim, pointed noses will be hopeless, as they may be too slim 8 mm behind the point to be held properly to the spindle."

Reply: This is precisely the sort of specific information that has great value here. I had already marked an original DWM 531 projectile at various points to compare measurements to available projectiles, then found the Eley drawing.

My first contact with Aussie Copper was to inquire as to their bullet's dimensions. Never did get their reply on that... would have saved me the return shipping.


Again, Herr Eichendorff, thank you for sharing valued experience.




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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: DarylS]
      #309588 - 28/12/17 05:46 PM

Quote:

I do this for my 9.3x57 and with .30/06 and .35 Whelen brass for my .375/06IMP. So simple it is absolutely ridiculous & fool hardy (a waste of money) to buy someone else's cases.




Unless one desires to have some properly headstamped brass to go with their 9.5X57.


Otherwise, my reworked .35 Whelen are quite suitable.

Someday I may find myself willing to go through the nuisance of retrofitting original DWM 531 cases to boxer primers, then load with modern powder and original pulled DWM projectiles for the sake of authenticity. A few 'strippers' of five would make nice 'case candy', to say the least.



These are 'purrrrty', as well.



Presently, I'm satisfied with a box of Kynoch for the MS's fitted case.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Viking338]
      #309589 - 28/12/17 06:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

These look interesting.

From Cutting Edge Bullets:








Yes and I think some, if not those particular ones you reverse and use them as solids. Never tried them but did read about them.




I have thought of that myself and wondered... . If that projectile is turned around and loaded with the open end in, would setting off the charge behind it expand the 'skirt' in the barrel as would a Minie ball?

For pig killers, I'd think they'd perform well with the open end forward (no plastic tips installed). The shape looks like it may be great for the (pre M1924) Schoenauer magazine.

Problem for me is, they're brass. Where I live, even a trace of lead is verboten while hunting. They'd have to be certified (and accepted by the legal gods) as 'lead free'.


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Viking338
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #309595 - 28/12/17 10:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

These look interesting.

From Cutting Edge Bullets:








Yes and I think some, if not those particular ones you reverse and use them as solids. Never tried them but did read about them.




I have thought of that myself and wondered... . If that projectile is turned around and loaded with the open end in, would setting off the charge behind it expand the 'skirt' in the barrel as would a Minie ball?

For pig killers, I'd think they'd perform well with the open end forward (no plastic tips installed). The shape looks like it may be great for the (pre M1924) Schoenauer magazine.

Problem for me is, they're brass. Where I live, even a trace of lead is verboten while hunting. They'd have to be certified (and accepted by the legal gods) as 'lead free'.




I just googled their website and yes indeed they come with the tips to help feeding for those that need it. Or you leave them off and they have the big open point or you reverse them to use them as solids. They are solid brass machined so no problem to use them reversed and no lead so you could try some if it would help your problem. They are expensive though! My mate has used them a bit and said they work as advertised but he/we mostly use Woodleighs in PP, RN and Hydro's if we want solids as the no lead shit hasn't infested where we hunt yet!


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DarylS
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Re: Aussie Copper for M1910 [Re: Viking338]
      #309607 - 29/12/17 05:07 AM

Since I started with a .257 wildcat back in 78, I really haven't cared what the head-stamp says. I need only to look at a ctg. case or loaded round and I can see what it is. A proper headstamp is not necessary and indeed, would likely reduce the amount of brass for any particular ctg. I load for. I only have a few oddballs today, so it isn't critical.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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