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mart
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New (to me) 256 Mannlicher
#273505 - 18/11/15 07:55 AM

I just picked up this little Steyr 1895 from a friend. It's had a bit of use, though not by him but the bore is excellent and it came with the 6.5x53R RCBS dies. I haven't found any maker's name on it so I am curious what you gentleman's opinion might be on the heritage of this little rifle. It is marked 6.5mm rather than 256 Mannlicher. Thanks in advance for looking and for any information.

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kuduae
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273509 - 18/11/15 09:35 AM

To me it looks like a typical G.Gibbs, Bristol, sporterized Mannlicher, once destined for resale by another. Gibbs then imported lots of Mannlichers and Mannlicher - Schoenauers from the Steyr military production then, sporterized them and sold many with their own address. But they also supplied many other gunmakers with such rifles. I have seen such Gibbs - Mannlichers marked by Atkin, Rigby, Purdey and many more. Some retailers apparently did not care to mark these rifles themselves.Early ones were still marked 6.5mm, until the Brits invented their own name for the cartridge, .256. If there is a B - prefix serial number, it is a Gibbs. What is the date on the left receiver wall? If I knew the date and the serial number,I could verify the G.Gibbs provenance.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
#273511 - 18/11/15 10:24 AM

My mistake. I fat fingered the date. It's a Steyr 1893. The serial number is 9153. No prefix in the number and the barrel has the same number.

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Huvius
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273515 - 18/11/15 12:45 PM

I wouldn't jump to it being built up by Gibbs but surely by some British maker.
You don't see many Gibbs Mannlichers with horn forend tips but I suppose that they could have built it up to another retailers specifications.
Looks a lot like the Steyr with the Fraser trigger that I have.
Very usable rifle for sure.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Huvius]
#273519 - 18/11/15 01:07 PM

I bought to be a user. It doesn't hurt that its got some character. I've always wanted one since I read Ross Seyfried's write up on his that had once belonged to Ken Waters.

I just wish I knew the history on this rifle. Its obviously had some history.

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RedOak4392
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273520 - 18/11/15 02:00 PM

Beautiful rifle.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: RedOak4392]
#273576 - 19/11/15 11:17 AM

I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.

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Spud303
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273579 - 19/11/15 01:01 PM

Mart,
When forming 6.5x53R I've actually found Winchester .303 brass is easier to work with than Remington with only the odd case folding up. I also use lanolin grease and haven't had any stuck cases.
That's a nice rifle you've got there that should shoot well (mine's a straight stocked Gibbs retailed by Manton).
Good luck,
Spud

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Spud303]
#273582 - 19/11/15 02:04 PM

Thanks. I haven't found any Winchester brass yet. I'll agree it seems to form better than Remington, at least in some other rounds I've formed. I think the Remington brass runs a bit harder even after annealing. I don't have anyway to substantiate that, just a general impression I get.

The brass I listed is what I've been able to locate recently.

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NitroX
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273585 - 19/11/15 03:04 PM

What is the length of the barrel? i know it has a short forend so some of is relative. Just out of interest.

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John aka NitroX

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: NitroX]
#273597 - 19/11/15 04:56 PM

I believe it's a 28" barrel. I'll measure it when I get back from my three week hitch on the north slope. I get home on December 8th.

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Ireload2
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273633 - 20/11/15 11:11 AM

Quote:

I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.

PRVI will probably be .455 dia at the head and will be too big for your chamber.

I have not measured or even seen Hornady cases. It would be ok if no larger than .451 or .452 at the head. If anyone has any Hornady brass I would like to know the head diamter.

Both Remington and Winchester work well (.451 to .452) but they will need to be annealed after forming.

You might check the diameter of the open end of your FL die and your chamber to see what is going to fit.

I have worked on forming this caliber a lot. With the right dies I can get 100% good cases but I use more dies than most.

1.It is a good idea to shove the shoulder back with a .308 Win FL die but a 7.35 Carcano FL die works (.317 neck die dia) even better since it supports the skinny .303 shoulder a little better and prevents it from buckling.

2. Then I use a 6.5 Carcano trim die (.300 dia) with the shoulder set long

3. Then I use the 6.5X53R trim die (.290 dia)

4. Then I use the 6.5X53R FL die. (.284 dia) I strip the guts out of my bolt and use it to set this die so there is a slight drag on the bolt when closed. This sets the shoulder against the chamber shoulder and reduces case stretching. Just be sure you don't push the shoulder back to far with one of the earlier dies.

Necks do not have to be turned or reamed because my chamber necks (4 of them) measure .300.

If you find the Dutch drawings the dimension for the case length converts to 2.112". But my chambers measure 2.150" so I trim the case to 2.148 for the first firing. Since the .303 has a smaller shoulder diameter the case gets shorter when fired the first time. They will shorten .004 to .007. After the first firing I neck size and trim everything to 2.145.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Ireload2]
#273635 - 20/11/15 11:36 AM

Thank you. I'll order some Remington brass. I have made a couple of cases from 30-40 brass using a 308 die set a bit long to set the shoulder back. I trimmed to 2.115 and then sized in a 6.5x53R FL die. They came out perfect and chambered in my rifle. I have a 30-40 so I don't really want to use up my brass. The 303 is closer in dimensions anyway.

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#273793 - 22/11/15 03:20 PM

This is a particularly interesting rifle as it has the crossed pennant British military proof mark. Both on the chamber and near the magazine well.

I have seen a few 6.5mm Jeffrey sporting rifles with this same stamping and just missed out on one so marked, here in Australia.

I have also seen another rifle in .375 2 1/2 inch on this forum a few years ago which I commented about a few years ago.

Despite looking for information on these rifles in the National Archives in London I have yet to find any reference to them. I did however find a reference to some 6.5mm barrels being supplied to the Ministry of Munitions in WW1, from Rigby.

Does it have the crossed pennent mark on the bolt by any chance?

Regards

Alan David
Sydney

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#273810 - 23/11/15 02:23 AM

Alan,

I'll have to check when I get home next month. I'm working remote on the north slope until then.

Mart

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#274353 - 01/12/15 04:24 PM

All of these British retailed Steyr rifles that I have seen were made on model 1892 actions. The date on the left side action wall is the date of manufacture, not the model number. Since they were made in Austria they are marked with the metric caliber 6.5mm. The ".256" designation was a British custom similar to calling the 7x57 a "275"

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#274354 - 01/12/15 04:32 PM

Alan,

I have a Pape retailed M92 6.5 that also has the crossed pennant marks you mentioned. My Lancaster does not have them. By the way, the Jeffery you just missed in Australia on the AAA auction is now in my vault. Initial shooting indicates it will be quite accurate.

Best wishes

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CptCurl
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Ireload2]
#274383 - 02/12/15 06:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.

PRVI will probably be .455 dia at the head and will be too big for your chamber.

I have not measured or even seen Hornady cases. It would be ok if no larger than .451 or .452 at the head. If anyone has any Hornady brass I would like to know the head diamter.

Both Remington and Winchester work well (.451 to .452) but they will need to be annealed after forming.

You might check the diameter of the open end of your FL die and your chamber to see what is going to fit.

I have worked on forming this caliber a lot. With the right dies I can get 100% good cases but I use more dies than most.

1.It is a good idea to shove the shoulder back with a .308 Win FL die but a 7.35 Carcano FL die works (.317 neck die dia) even better since it supports the skinny .303 shoulder a little better and prevents it from buckling.

2. Then I use a 6.5 Carcano trim die (.300 dia) with the shoulder set long

3. Then I use the 6.5X53R trim die (.290 dia)

4. Then I use the 6.5X53R FL die. (.284 dia) I strip the guts out of my bolt and use it to set this die so there is a slight drag on the bolt when closed. This sets the shoulder against the chamber shoulder and reduces case stretching. Just be sure you don't push the shoulder back to far with one of the earlier dies.

Necks do not have to be turned or reamed because my chamber necks (4 of them) measure .300.

If you find the Dutch drawings the dimension for the case length converts to 2.112". But my chambers measure 2.150" so I trim the case to 2.148 for the first firing. Since the .303 has a smaller shoulder diameter the case gets shorter when fired the first time. They will shorten .004 to .007. After the first firing I neck size and trim everything to 2.145.

I have 100 rounds of new unfired Hornady brass. I just measured 10 of them at random. They measure a uniform .452" at the head. They appear to be of very nice quality.

Esoteric,
Good to see you posting here. I know you have been here for a while. We welcome your knowledgeable input.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
#274429 - 03/12/15 02:26 AM

Curl,

I have just recently formed 50 rounds of new Hornady .303 brass to .256 Mannlicher. They formed perfectly with no losses. I form by first trimming to length then run in a .308 FL die, then a 7x57 FL die and then in the 6.5 FL die. Then I do a final trim as the cases grow in length during forming. Loaded rounds chamber freely in three M92's a Lancaster, a Pape and a Jeffery.

Best wishes

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
#274430 - 03/12/15 02:30 AM

PS My Hornady brass measures .451" at the head.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#274437 - 03/12/15 05:34 AM

I found a good deal on 200 new Remington 303 brass. It should be there when I get home.

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#275014 - 13/12/15 05:51 PM

Well I finally made it home from the slope and got a chance to spend some time reloading and forming brass.

The barrel is 26 inches, slugs out at .266 and there is no cross pennant on the bolt though it does have a crown over a V.

I fought with trying to make brass from the Remington 303. I set the shoulder back using a 308 trim die. I set it long so I didn't set the shoulder back too far. When I tried running into the 6.5x53R dies the shoulder would buckle. There was no excess lube in the die but it just wouldn't size the neck without buckling the shoulder. Fortunately there was a gun show in town today. I stopped by and picked up a set of Redding 7-08 dies. That proved to be the ticket. After setting the shoulder back with the 308 die, I made a pass through the 7-08 die and then through the 6.5x53 die. It worked great.

I loaded up a hundred rounds with some 100 grain bullets I had laying around that I would never use otherwise. I'll fire form the cases with those then anneal the cases and start working on some loads with 160 Hornady and Woodleigh round nose, and some RWS 156 grain H Mantle hollow points.

Here's a picture of the crown and V on the bolt.

Edited by mart (14/12/15 01:41 AM)

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#275015 - 13/12/15 06:19 PM

Mart, thanks for the info on the bolt.

ESOTERIC, I am glad the Jeffery went to a good home. Does your Pape of Newcastle rifle have a Pape serial number? The records for Pape exist and there may be information in the Pape ledgers about who the original purchases was, especially if the rifle was allocated a Pape serial number.

Would there be any chance of getting some photos of your crossed pennant Lancaster? Also have you been able to track down any details details of the date of sale and the purchaser?

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#275061 - 14/12/15 10:05 AM

Out of curiosity has anyone used Vihtavouri N160 with the 156-160 grain bullets in either a 6.5x53R or a 6.5x54 MS? I have most of an 8 pound jug and really not much in which to use it.

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#275224 - 18/12/15 06:57 AM

Alan,

The crossed pennant marks are on my Pape not the Lancaster. I believe the number 11147 found on the bottom of the trigger guard would be the Pape serial number, rather than the matching four digit numbers found on receiver and barrel shank, which I take to be Steyr numbers.

I will try to get some photos of this rifle posted with assistance from Curl.

How do I go about finding information about the Pape rifle from the serial number?

Best,

Photos added by Curl:

Edited by CptCurl (18/12/15 09:51 AM)

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#275248 - 18/12/15 04:54 PM

I picked up 200 Remington 303 British brass. The rims are all .527 and the bases .448. I trimmed them to 2.110 and used a 308 trim die to set the shoulder back, a 7mm-08 die to take the neck down and finally a pass through the 6.5x53R die set to zero clearance and I had the cases made. A final trim and they were ready to load. I loaded 100 with some Hornady 100 grain bullets I had no other use for and fire formed all the cases Monday. It made a good way to pass the time while I was waiting for the barrel to cool between groups on another rifle.

I have Hornady 160 grain RN bullets loaded with several different powders looking for 2200-2300 fps and the best accuracy. I'm trying RL-15, IMR 4831, AA4350, and N160. I'll have a group therapy session at the range Monday.

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#275407 - 20/12/15 05:30 PM

British Gunmakers Volume 3 by Nigel Brown gives the following dates for serial numbers.
1907 - 11139
1908 - 11245
So if your rifle shared the common serial number numbers that Pape allocated, which seems highly likely, the rifle was sold in early 1908. Very interesting.

Mr Brown gives the following firm as the keeper of Pape records, Bagnall & Kirkwood, 28 Grey St, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 6AE.The firm also has a web site.

It will be interesting to see if the ledger book records the purchaser.

Is there any chance of one more photo shoeing the calibre and nitro proof, not quite fully visible in the first photo?

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#275625 - 25/12/15 04:58 PM

Alan,

After the holidays I will ask Roscoe to post another photo for me. Any other views wanted in addition to the caliber proof marks wanted?

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DarylS
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#275626 - 25/12/15 05:16 PM

That little rifle - the word 'pretty' comes to mind, would be a nice rifle to hunt with - for the rest of my hunting years - however such a sentiment could be short lived, the next time another little beauty catches my eye.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#275696 - 27/12/15 11:55 AM

Quote:

Alan,

After the holidays I will ask Roscoe to post another photo for me. Any other views wanted in addition to the caliber proof marks wanted?

Just the one photo of the 6.5mm Nitro Proof mark will be great thank you.

I have some information regarding production of 6.5mm ammo in WW1 and would like to post some photos but can't work out how to do it.

Could some one let me have there e-mail address by PM and be able to post them for me please?

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#276503 - 13/01/16 08:39 AM

AlanD

I have (finally), taken the additional photos of the proof marks of my Pape Model 92 Dutch Mannlicher 6.5 rifle that you requested. Hopefully Curl will again do me the great favor of attaching them to this post.

Also, for general information, I have included a couple photos of my Lancaster Dutch M92 6.5 rifle.

Edited by CptCurl (13/01/16 01:45 PM)

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mart
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#276653 - 16/01/16 08:53 PM

Boy, that looks to be nearly identical to mine. Albeit in much nicer shape. I'll have to do a comparison when I get home. I can only access this site on my phone on the slope so comparing the proof marks is difficult.

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Brithunter
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: mart]
#276672 - 17/01/16 06:28 AM

These are wonderful rifles to be sure. Sadly mine by Rigby of London was sold for about half what it should have fetched last year:-

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfor...vy#.VpqZd_mLS00

That thread has the photos of it from soem years back.

I still have a few en-bloc clips left for it and a couple of packets of Kynoch 256" Mannlicher sporting ammunition.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

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DarylS
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Brithunter]
#276675 - 17/01/16 07:06 AM

Lovely

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: DarylS]
#276687 - 17/01/16 12:43 PM

ESOTERIC

Thank you for posting the extra photos of the proof mark.

The Lancaster certainly has superb wood. Is the Lancaster marked with a separate serial number that may have been applied by Lancaster? If so some Lancaster records are available and it may be possible to get some info on the original purchaser.

If you have any luck in finding out the details of whom the Pape was sold to (see my earlier post) I would be most keen to hear about it.

As to the crossed pennant proof mark. I am now in two minds about this. I have posted the mark on the German Gun Collectors Association forum, under the Gun and Proof Marks section. It appears that this may be a factory inspectors mark and not a British military proof mark - even though it is identical to that. If you check out the forum you can come to your own view. Personally I am sitting on the fence until further information comes forward...

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#276729 - 18/01/16 02:18 PM

AlanD

I contacted the folks your mentioned and they answered that they had no records for my Pape.

The Lancaster has the number A700 on the bottom of the trigger guard. The number B2068 is on the right side of the barrel shank.

Best,

Sherman

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AlanD
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#277104 - 25/01/16 03:52 PM

Pityt that Pape did not have any records, worth a try anyway.

The company of Charles Lancaster Gunmakers holds some Lancaster records although they are incomplete. They used to have a web site but not anymore. They used to produce a letter or 'Authentication Certificate', which there was a fee for.
The company was/is owned by Ronald Wharton, the last e-mail address I had is wharton@bunduki.co.uk
If they have a record for this rifle the Lancaster number of A700 should make it easy to find, in the ledger books.

Regards

Alan

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ESOTERIC
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Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: AlanD]
#277426 - 02/02/16 01:43 AM

AlanD

I sent an email inquiry to the address you gave and received a reply from a Ms Margarita Booker. She said the records had no info on my rifle and that the numbers I gave referred to other types of weapons and that Lancaster had never sold a 6.5mm rifle.

I fear the lady is a bit confused as she also indicated that the Steyr date on the action was the serial number. It seem Lancaster would have recorded the sale of "bought-in" and retailed rifles that they put their name on. Perhaps they kept that info in a separate book and it has been lost. It is a shame that many records did not survive the ravages of time and world wars. Thanks for your help.

Sherman

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AlanD
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Loc: NSW Australia

Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#277649 - 07/02/16 10:20 AM

I did spend a few hours in the workshop of Mr Wharton a number of years ago. I only met Margarita as Ron was sick that day. Every courtesy was extended to me, being left alone in the workshop (with a mug of tea)to go through the registers. I was only interested in the 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 periods. It was clear the records were not complete, but I did not take a note of what they did and did not encompass.

I suspect there may well be a record of the sale if your rifle received a Lancaster serial number, obtaining this if it still exists may have to wait until circumstances change in the fullness of time.

Had your rifle been retailed by the likes of William Evans you would have been able to get the information you want, have a look at the Lee Speed section on this forum.

Them's the breaks!

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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Ireload2
.224 member

Reged: 11/08/13
Posts: 41
Loc: USA

Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: ESOTERIC]
#279178 - 12/03/16 04:52 PM

Curl and Esoteric

Thanks for reporting the case head diameter of the Hornady .303 brass.

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas

Re: New (to me) 256 Mannlicher [Re: Ireload2]
#338638 - 04/03/20 06:25 AM

Resurrecting a very deserving thread, having PMed with Mart recently regarding his rifle.
I have a long-forgotten Dutch M95 action headed back to me ...

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