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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

.458 Mannlicher Schoenauer
#241081 - 24/01/14 06:27 AM

Good evening Members

I have a .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer I received from a friend since he is not a hunter and this rifle is worthless to him, so he handed it to me. I am a Mauser fan and do not know this type of rifle. Please be so kind as to enlighten me regarding the reason why this rifle is sought after?

I would really appreciate it, the rifle is in excellent condition, I think it has been manufactured around 1950-1958, I will have more details when I receive this rifle and take a look at it It did not shoot many bullets, it looks good in the photos. I will then upload photos for you guys to have a look at and give me your opinion.

I would like to hear from you

Regards

Gert

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93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#241090 - 24/01/14 08:15 AM

Just wait and work that bold - impossible to describe - you will get the point

Richard Harland used one to eradicate elephant herds in Tsetse corridors in late 60's Rhodesia...So did Barrie Duckworth.

I am sure guys will fill you up on more.

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HendrikNZ
.275 member

Reged: 20/12/10
Posts: 94
Loc: New Zealand

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 93mouse]
#241093 - 24/01/14 09:03 AM

Hi Gert

Besides the wonderfully over engineered smooth bolt action, my favorite part of these old Schoenauers has to be the all metal rotary magazine. It is so simple yet such an elegant design.

We would love to see some photos once you get the rifle.

Regards
Hendrik

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: HendrikNZ]
#241099 - 24/01/14 11:35 AM

Congratulations Gert

You got a very special rifle there.
Get it running and enjoy the very unique and smooth action.
There's nothing like it.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#241109 - 24/01/14 06:30 PM

Quote:

Please be so kind as to enlighten me regarding the reason why this rifle is sought after?

main reason is maybe the rarity of the 458 MS

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Ash
.400 member

Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
#241112 - 24/01/14 08:32 PM

Sorry to go a little off topic, but did any aus members catch that one on usedguns for $500?

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.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Ash]
#241116 - 24/01/14 09:02 PM

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#241126 - 25/01/14 03:14 AM

Quote:

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike

No,definitely not. .458 Win magazines are of the so-called "M-Sch Magnum" length, as long as Steyr could make them. There is no practical way to lengthen it. They will take cartridges up to 85 mm = 3.35" over all, not a hair more. The Winchester has a max. oal of 84.8 mm = 3.34", so it barely fits. The .458 Lott has a max oal of 91.44 mm = 3.6", to long for the M-Sch magazine. Of course, in handloading you may seat the bullets in the Lott to a shorter oal. Doing so, you will loose any powder space advantage it has, compared to the Winchester.
See these threads too:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=122479&an=0&page=2#Post122479
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post237830

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Sarg
.400 member

Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Ash]
#241135 - 25/01/14 07:14 AM

Quote:

Sorry to go a little off topic, but did any aus members catch that one on usedguns for $500?

WHAT where ?

No never saw that one, what in 458Win ?

Can wait to see pic's of this 458Win, when I spent some time in Zim a PH friend had a S&L in 458Win, it was nice to !

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Sarg]
#241138 - 25/01/14 08:07 AM

Some photos, will upload better ones as soon as I receive the rifle.

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Ash
.400 member

Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Sarg]
#241144 - 25/01/14 11:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry to go a little off topic, but did any aus members catch that one on usedguns for $500?

WHAT where ?

No never saw that one, what in 458Win ?

Can wait to see pic's of this 458Win, when I spent some time in Zim a PH friend had a S&L in 458Win, it was nice to !

www.usedguns.com.au

It took a few hours to sell...Had a new barrel fitted, similar stock to the one in this thread.

And yep, only had $500 on it. I showed a friend and said "You should buy that, its really, really cheap.."

I shoulda bought it.. Ah well.

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.

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Ash]
#241182 - 26/01/14 05:39 AM

Thank you kindly for the replies, if I was considering selling this rifle , whom will be the best to contact regarding the selling procedures?
Gert

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#241212 - 26/01/14 06:30 PM

Gert:
There is a "for sale" forum on this site, scroll further down the Main Index page. Start a new thread!

Pictures are helpful.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Marrakai]
#241223 - 26/01/14 07:33 PM

Marrakai

Thank you,if I arrive at the point of selling this rifle I will upload some photos. At this stage I need to shoot the rifle after I received it from the current owner. I need to experience the smooth action mentioned by members. Maybe there is still a place alongside my .404 Jeffery in the safe....

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HendrikNZ
.275 member

Reged: 20/12/10
Posts: 94
Loc: New Zealand

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#241225 - 26/01/14 07:55 PM

Hi Gert

Once you shoot it I'm sure you will decide to keep it, but we would still love to see some more photos!

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: HendrikNZ]
#241552 - 01/02/14 07:20 AM

HendrikNZ I am currently in the process to receive the rifle from its owner. I hope to have this rifle by next week. I will upload photos and info regarding this rifle.

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Ash
.400 member

Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#241566 - 01/02/14 07:21 PM

http://usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=29814

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Ash]
#242292 - 13/02/14 05:49 AM

I did receive my .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer. It is in excellent condition, less than 50 rounds through the barrel. A few photos is deemed necessary;

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Ruger_450
Banned

Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#244301 - 24/03/14 06:05 AM

Leave it alone. It's a valuable rifle as it sits. At least $3000 USD.

I remember seeing it in the Stoeger catalogs back in the day.

The USA would be your best market for it but the ins and outs of getting here are unknown to me. I would think there are lots of folks in S.A. that would love to own it.

Congratulations !

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Ruger_450]
#244337 - 24/03/14 07:13 PM

I´ll buy it ! PM me if you like, best, Mike

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256222 - 03/11/14 02:54 AM

Some feedback on the .458 Mannlicher Schonauer, I did contact great former PH /Hunters, Richard Harland and Terry Irwin whom both had the same rifle. They bought these specific calibers since they experienced the flawless feeding and fast shooting when in a tight spot while culling elephants ....both of them shot an awful lot of elephants and buffaloes in their time when they were rangers in their respective countries in Rhodesia (Richard) Tanzania(Terry).

According to these two fine gentlemen the .458 Mannlicher Schonauer`s rotary magazine did the trick for them...there is no way that in such a confusion when doing culling of a whole family group of elephants spilling of rounds can take place with the rotary magazine of this rifle. It seems it happened with the bolt actions...

It looks like some of the photos did not open, I am uploading a few more of this rifle. I decided not to sell this rifle after I did some reading and searching regarding this rifle...If I sell it I will never get hold of the same caliber ever...according to a knowledgeable member regarding Mannlicher Schonauer rifles this rifle constitute as being "rare" and a few as one hundred were build...

I am keeping it and will shoot it ...my son will take this rifle when I am not be able to use it ...we are only guardians of these old classic rifles, we never really own them...

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451whitworth
.224 member

Reged: 30/11/07
Posts: 16
Loc: MO, USA

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256453 - 09/11/14 12:47 PM

It does my heart good to know you are keeping it. What a prize.

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 451whitworth]
#256477 - 09/11/14 11:36 PM

Good day to you Withworth
Yes, I really have no inclination to sell it. What I will do is to take off the original stock and substitute the original stock with my own handmade rifle stock that will be design to fit my physique and absorb most of the recoil in a American classic design..I do not want to alter the original stock..I did build a claw mount scope bases that I think will compliment the .458 Mannlicher Schonauer...then for sure this old classic will be shooting like a charm...It really will afford me the time to get to know the rifle parts of this rifle when disassembling it to fit the new stock...I definitely will use it to shoot big bore competitions...thank you kindly for the reply.

Edited by GPJ12345 (10/11/14 03:45 AM)

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256484 - 10/11/14 04:43 AM

As Gert asked me by PM: The action is a typical M-S 1956 “Magnum” action, straight, low bolt handle, bolt stop spring placed higher on the receiver bridge to make way for a reinforcing boss that serves the bolt guide rib as a third, safety only, locking lug. The bolt is polished bright as on all M-Ss intended for the American market. To date it closer, look for the Vienna proofhouse NPv Nitro proofmark, maybe covered by the wood. Besides this mark there ought to be the last two digits of the year.
The stock left the factory as a MC stock with an exaggerated “Monte Carlo” comb, designed for Stoeger and intended for scope use only. It shows other influences of the then fashionable Weatherby/California style too, like the white-line spacers. As the rifle was never scoped, the MC stock was highly impractical for open sight use. A former owner had the comb line lowered and the exaggerated cheekpiece hollowed out to make it usable with the open sights. Such trimming down of MC stocks was quite common and led to the creation of the more restrained MCA stock. So the stock is not “factory original” anymore. There is no reason why you should not modify it further to suit your shooting habits.
Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 are very rare. At the time they were offered the pre-64 Winchester 70 was the “in” big game rifle, praised by American writers and cheaper to boot. The British usually preferred Mauser M98 actioned rifles. Because of the forward position of the bolthandle the M-S rifles were badmouthed then by American writers like Elmer Keith as “slow to operate, unsuitable for rapid follow up shots”. During the 1950s very few European hunters could afford an African safari. So there was little demand for a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in a “stopping rifle” caliber. As I wrote before, even the “magnum” Mannlicher-Schoenauer action is too short for a more flexible magnum like the .375 H&H, further diminishing the popularity. And, factory fitting a .458 rifle with such a stock designed for scope use only can only be described as an outright bum idea. So here you have the reasons why Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 never sold in high numbers and are rarely seen today.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: kuduae]
#256541 - 10/11/14 11:14 PM

So here is a question, Kuduae (who I think has forgotten more about these MS rifles than I will ever learn) and everyone else. For someone who shoots a shotgun or double rifle with measurements as follows.... LOP 15"top, 14 7/8" mid, 15 1/8" heel, cast off 1/4", drop to comb 1 3/8", drop to heel 2 3/8" but whose bolt rifles are stocked at 14 1/2", how would you stock one of these MS .458 for a compromise, irons, maybe an aperture and a QD scope bearing in mind eye relief on the scope of course ?? Looking forward to hear the replies, thanks in advance, Mike

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: kuduae]
#256557 - 11/11/14 12:45 AM

Quote:

As Gert asked me by PM: The action is a typical M-S 1956 “Magnum” action, straight, low bolt handle, bolt stop spring placed higher on the receiver bridge to make way for a reinforcing boss that serves the bolt guide rib as a third, safety only, locking lug. The bolt is polished bright as on all M-Ss intended for the American market. To date it closer, look for the Vienna proofhouse NPv Nitro proofmark, maybe covered by the wood. Besides this mark there ought to be the last two digits of the year.
The stock left the factory as a MC stock with an exaggerated “Monte Carlo” comb, designed for Stoeger and intended for scope use only. It shows other influences of the then fashionable Weatherby/California style too, like the white-line spacers. As the rifle was never scoped, the MC stock was highly impractical for open sight use. A former owner had the comb line lowered and the exaggerated cheekpiece hollowed out to make it usable with the open sights. Such trimming down of MC stocks was quite common and led to the creation of the more restrained MCA stock. So the stock is not “factory original” anymore. There is no reason why you should not modify it further to suit your shooting habits.
Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 are very rare. At the time they were offered the pre-64 Winchester 70 was the “in” big game rifle, praised by American writers and cheaper to boot. The British usually preferred Mauser M98 actioned rifles. Because of the forward position of the bolthandle the M-S rifles were badmouthed then by American writers like Elmer Keith as “slow to operate, unsuitable for rapid follow up shots”. During the 1950s very few European hunters could afford an African safari. So there was little demand for a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in a “stopping rifle” caliber. As I wrote before, even the “magnum” Mannlicher-Schoenauer action is too short for a more flexible magnum like the .375 H&H, further diminishing the popularity. And, factory fitting a .458 rifle with such a stock designed for scope use only can only be described as an outright bum idea. So here you have the reasons why Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 never sold in high numbers and are rarely seen today.

Kuduae, thank you kindly for the much informative reply, this is the most info I got from searching and asking about this specific rifle and caliber...it really is much appreciated..I still am going to build myself a nice big bore stock and store this original stock..then I can shoot this rifle open sights and add a scope as well if possible..

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256572 - 11/11/14 06:10 AM

Quote:

So here is a question, Kuduae (who I think has forgotten more about these MS rifles than I will ever learn) and everyone else. For someone who shoots a shotgun or double rifle with measurements as follows.... LOP 15"top, 14 7/8" mid, 15 1/8" heel, cast off 1/4", drop to comb 1 3/8", drop to heel 2 3/8" but whose bolt rifles are stocked at 14 1/2", how would you stock one of these MS .458 for a compromise, irons, maybe an aperture and a QD scope bearing in mind eye relief on the scope of course ?? Looking forward to hear the replies, thanks in advance, Mike

Sorry. Mike, but I cannot give any advice here. Though I have made some stocks for my own use, I am far from being a stockmaker. I am not very familiar with the imperial measurements, but some of the numbers you give in 1/8” = 3.2 mm make me lol. The clothing you wear on a given day while hunting will easily make a difference of 2/8s. It all depends on your own shape. And don’t forget the shape of your face! In making a rifle stock for my own use I am only concerned with LOP mid and pitch at first. Cast is relatively unimportant in a rifle stock. Height of comb/drop cannot be judged without thickness of comb, as a thicker comb appears to be higher. I usually don’t use any cheekpiece, as my face only touches a stock for about 3cm at the comb. A cheekpiece, unless very exaggerated, simply hangs out in the air below my face. So it is just useless wood for my use. The rest is just cut and try until the stock is comfortable for me, maybe noone else. Only then comes the stock finish. And, I don’t shy away from altering a stock I cannot adjust to. My own refinishes usually beat any factory stock finish.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: kuduae]
#256573 - 11/11/14 07:04 AM

Thanks for the input Kuduae, I realise all measurements will be variable on what you are wearing and small differences you can easily compensate for. I was more interested in the "compromise" question when it comes to stocking for irons or scopes, best, Mike

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#256575 - 11/11/14 07:42 AM

The "compromise" should be slated to the most serious use the rifle will get. In a "stopping rifle" to be used at short range in a serious emergency it should be optimized for open sight use. If it is to be mostly used scoped as an all around rifle, the open sight for emergency use only after a scope failure, the open sights fit may be less than optimum.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#256584 - 11/11/14 02:17 PM

Quote:

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike

.......................................NO! and it would be an unforgivable sin! That is the rarest rifle built by Mannlicher Schoenauer, and was among the last of that line. I would guess that no more than about 100 were made!

...........................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: DUGABOY1]
#256592 - 11/11/14 07:40 PM

Quote:

That is the rarest rifle built by Mannlicher Schoenauer

I suspect that MS in caliber 10,75x68 is the rarest one but it´s true that you don´t see .458`s so often.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Hemihead
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Posts: 54
Loc: N.Y. USA

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Igorrock]
#256616 - 12/11/14 06:52 AM

It's my understanding they only made the .244Rem(6mm Rem) one year,1959.

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Hemihead]
#256631 - 12/11/14 06:05 PM

Good day members
Would my assumption be correct if I say that according to knowledgeable persons the Manlicher Schonauer became to expensive to build? What other influences lead to the demise of the real Mannlicher Schonauer up to the 1950 era? I do like historical information regarding manufacturing of venerable calibers of old...

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Mike_Bailey
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Loc: GB

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256699 - 14/11/14 06:44 AM

Does anyone have the email or contact details for Terry Irwin (PH who used an MS in .458), thanks in advance, Mike

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#256738 - 14/11/14 06:10 PM

Congratulations there.
If you hand load then you would do well with WOODLEIGH 480grn 458Win projectiles. really great bullet for such a rifle. I too would buy it if it came up...

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8730
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#256781 - 15/11/14 03:44 PM

it was the increased production cost that killed the MS in the early 1970s

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
#256818 - 16/11/14 06:21 AM

Thank you Lancaster, I appreciate the reply.

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#257378 - 30/11/14 11:37 PM

I opened up the rifle to have a look at the rotary magazine...a few photos to show the inside of the magazine.I opened the rifle for the first time since I got it ...it was not cleaned up but that have been corrected after the photo session...

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#257379 - 01/12/14 01:45 AM

Quote:

I opened up the rifle to have a look at the rotary magazine...a few photos to show the inside of the magazine.I opened the rifle for the first time since I got it ...it was not cleaned up but that have been corrected after the photo session...

where the problem? all of my rifle's looking like this or much worse

interesting detail pics to end all dreams about rechambering into something bigger

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
#257387 - 01/12/14 04:35 AM

Hallo Lancaster
Good to hear from you again, no I commenced cleaning the magazine , but this rifle has been cleaned a lot of years previously...it took a while to clean out and still some stains still stuck onto the surfaces...why do any one want to upgrade/re chamber a .458 Win Mag...???if you are not able to kill an elephant with this caliber( probably the caliber that killed the most dangerous game the past decades...????) then maybe a light machine gun is an option...I am contemplating shortening the stock to fit my physique ..maybe an inch or two..since the stock and pull of trigger is too long. This will be the shortest way to get it fit to shoot instead of building a new stock...I will not make any other changes to the stock...it needs to be original..

Edited by GPJ12345 (01/12/14 04:36 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#257393 - 01/12/14 05:48 AM

Quote:

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike

you know how people think about the 458 Win Mag today and the first question about a rifle for this cartridge is allmost ever if it can be rechambered into something more powerful.

the mannlicher schönauer can not

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
#257394 - 01/12/14 06:00 AM

Yes, you are correct, an old experienced hunter made a remark regarding the calibers hunters are using ....to him it seems the animals has evolved into targets with very thick skin and bones and are extremely difficult to kill... hence the muzzle velocity off calibers are increasing at a rapid pace , only felt recoil put a damper on the velocity increase needed to kill animals...maybe it is a good thing since the next re- cambering will be a Lott 458 ...that will remove any teeth fillings I have...I am prone to head-aches......

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GPJ12345
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#269666 - 27/08/15 04:54 AM

Some feedback members:

I will be shooting the .458 Win Mag Mannlicher Shoenauer for the first time at a Big Bore Shooting day this weekend. I re-load it with 420 gn cast bullets with gas checks. I did shoot four rounds today to make sure it is accurate ...at twenty five meters( indoor shooting range) I hit the bull twice..the other two rounds did miss the bull ( black circle twenty millimeters in diameter) by five millimeters.

It will be a great pleasure to shoot this old classic this coming week end...

Edited by GPJ12345 (27/08/15 04:55 AM)

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Bidgee
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#269677 - 27/08/15 09:41 AM

Hi Gert,

Sounds like a good way to spend the weekend, should be nice and sunny for you.

Are you going to put a full magazine through on the Cape Buffalo target?

Cheers

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Bidgee]
#269690 - 28/08/15 01:10 AM

Hallo Bidgee
The BASA organizers always take a lot of effort and time to presents a extremely good and challenging set up for the competitors.I just want to have fun and learn to shoot this rifle well.

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284151 - 20/06/16 03:18 AM

Update: After a long spell of contemplating what to do with my .458 Mannicher Schoenauer regarding a scope fitting, with all the pro`s and cons of what scope base/rings will work, financial input to acquire a set of scope bases/rings which are out of my financial capability, and advice from members not ot scope a .458 Win Mag caliber.....I rejected the idea of fitting a scope on my .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer. I then worked on the next best option, to fit a functional ghost ring...

I went to Johan Greyling ( gunsmith/mentor) to take apart the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer `s bolt apart and to examine the cocking piece sleeve. I noticed I have extremely few millimeters of metal to drill and tap without altering the cocking piece sleeve and maybe damage it.
Decision:
We decided the best option I have is to make an exact duplication of the cocking piece bolt sleeve mantel ( the en-longed shiny piece of metal usually metal checkered that rides on the cocking piece)

Notice the piece of metal between the bolt handle and safety. That is what house the safety pin...it is hollow and does not have metal to drill and tap. Dove-tailing the sides of this piece is also not viable.

The bolt only from the top:

This is where I want to attach/soft solder the ghost ring`s base onto.
Cocking piece sleeve from the side:

I have narrowed my search down to a ghost ring sight used on the Marlin type of rifles:

Here is another type of ghost ring I can look at:

I did converse with a person on another forum whom is extremely knowledgeable in building
miniature/scale Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles as a hobby , to get his input and ask him to design an aperture sight for me along these examples I uploaded .
Members , as always your input is more than welcome in this regards...keep in mind the telescope option is redundant...anything in regards to a ghost ring is more than welcome..I am sure you will agree that it is sound advice not to scope this rifle as some of your members had indicated previously...

I am of the opinion that the location of the ghost ring sight will favor my ability to see a better /improved sight picture, since it is near my eyes and a long distance between the ghost ring sight and the front sight/bead. I will remove the island v-express sight ...

As mentioned, this is my next best option...somewhere in the future with aging eye syndrome..I will need to fit a scope to see what I am shooting at...

Edited by GPJ12345 (20/06/16 03:36 AM)

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casper50
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284152 - 20/06/16 03:43 AM

I can't use iron sights hardly at all anymore. But, a peep sight still works great. No need for a scope as long as I have the peep.

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458Win
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284153 - 20/06/16 04:39 AM

i think you are on the right track with your idea of a peep sight mounted on the top of the cocking piece. At one time they were popular and King sight company made one called the" little Giant" them for MS, Mosin-Nagants, 98/40's and Berthier's like this one.
There are a lot of different sights out there today that could be modified or you can simply make one from a piece of angle iron or aluminum with a carefully drilled hole.

--------------------
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Kano
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
#284158 - 20/06/16 06:31 AM

GPJ, I fully agree with the "no scope on this rifle" part, and I've been through the same questions regarding a peep - ending up at the same point: the best place to do that is on the top of the bolt sleeve/cocking piece. It's relatively easy to find a spare one to experiment and to use for that, keeping the original for later use if needed.

Now, that top is bored, but after 9-10mm the hole reduces in diameter, and there is actually enough "meat" to dovetail the top, or even to drill straight through for an aperture sight - approximately 2.5mm at maximum thickness.

If you drill for the peep, you won't have much room for vertical adjustment, and you'll need a very fine thread (0.5mm max, which gives you 0.25 mm adjustment for a half turn, which translates in 40-50mm of change at 100m, depending on your sight radius.

If you dovetail, you'll have more options.

Whatever you do, please keep us posted, I'm really keen to see the outcome because I'll soon have to do the same...

--------------------
Philip

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xausa
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
#284187 - 20/06/16 09:28 PM

As far as a non-invasive receiver sight for a Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle is concerned, you can't beat this Lyman 36. No drilling and tapping required. The only problem will be finding one. There are two versions of the bolt stop and yours would be the later model, which only the later model sights will fit. This rifle has the older model.

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458Win
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
#284204 - 21/06/16 04:44 AM

The Lyman 36 is a good option. I have one on my 1903 also and just sold one for the later model 1952 to a guy on the forum. Another cheaper option would be the Williams sight where the aperture slides on a ramp for elevation. John Barsness has a couple of photos of his 1903 with one of those on it in the May 2015 issue of the American Rifleman magazine.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
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Vladymere
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
#284368 - 23/06/16 09:23 AM

I also recommend the Lyman sight as it is a direct bolt stop replacement and requires no modifications to the rifle. Also the rifle can be returned to it's original state with little effort by reinstalling the original bolt stop. All this is done without drilling, tapping or modifying the stock.

You may think that the aperture bridge that is over the bolt will interfere with working the bolt. Not so as the aperture bridge is on a pivot so that when you pull the bolt back the bolt handle pushes the aperture bridge out of the way and then the aperture bridge will return to the proper position when the bolt is closed.

The only problem will be in locating a Lyman sight but patience and perseverance will prevail.

As an aside you will find that the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle has such a slick action that if you open the bolt, hold the rifle level, hold the trigger down and then turn the rifle 45 degrees, muzzle down, the bolt will slide forward and down into the closed position. The only other rifle I know of that will do this the Gewehr 88 and the Gew. 88 sporting rifle derivatives.

You, Sir, have a wonderful rifle!

Vlad

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
#284556 - 27/06/16 05:49 AM

Yes, Philip, it is one option to look at, drill and tap, since I just bought another Mannlicher Schoenauer complete bolt today..now I have some backing when making a mistake that is not likely..I will do the ghost ring/peep sight and make it in two versions, one to dovetail on cocking piece sleeve other one to hinge on the back of the cocking piece sleeve ..

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
#284558 - 27/06/16 05:58 AM

Thank you Vlad., yes, I agree , the swing sight of Lyman is definitely the way to go, I do have a contact which may sell me such a sight...meanwhile I need to solve this puzzle myself, since I do know there are a bunch of other Mannlicher Schoenauer owners who experience the same difficulty..If I can provide a decent . functional ghost ring sight, I am sure I will have solve a problem for many other owners...I always liked a challenge..

Gert

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284559 - 27/06/16 06:00 AM

.458 Win. this sight you are talking about is also something I will take a look at..if I can build it smaller it might work to soft solder to the cocking piece rail/surface..

Edited by GPJ12345 (27/06/16 06:02 AM)

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Kano
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284574 - 27/06/16 03:41 PM

Gert, check the sight height you need: the sights on the MS are quite low, and if your rear sight is higher than the original leaf, you'll need a taller front sight.

You can't go very high at the front without replacing the ramp, and a tall ramp does not look nice.

How do you want to use the peep? The original tang peep on the MS is only used to put the rear leaf and front blade in focus. If you want to use the aperture as rear sight, you have to remove the rear leaf from the barrel.

On my other rifles I use aperture sights, no leafs on barrel, and fiber optic fronts (CZ rifles, ERA/Recknagel peep sights). I've got a couple of MS rifles at hand and will check the heights available. I also have a cocking piece that has been butchered by a quack smith, and that I can use to experiment.

My own 1903 will arrive in a few weeks, by then I hope to have the peep sight layout ready so I can install it immediately.

--------------------
Philip

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
#284576 - 27/06/16 04:07 PM

Hallo Kano
Yes, I need to remove the flip up island sight..I will mill another substitute to fill the gap and store my sight. I already measured the gap from the surface of the cocking piece..it is seven millimeters in height, not much to work with ...Kano, I know of a Lyman 36 sight available for purchase, if you are interested I can forward you the details...I will be back next week and start with the sight building project. Please keep me up to date with your experiments .

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458Win
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284593 - 28/06/16 03:02 AM

Yes, that is the one. Besides being inexpensive and available is that It is lightweight aluminum and less likely to adversely affect bolt operation

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
#284894 - 06/07/16 06:22 AM

Good day members
This is where I am currently with the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer`s ghost ring build. After a lot of deliberations, research, options and design issues looking from every angle to this setup and what will work best I decided to take this route. Keep in mind the Lyman ghost rings are just too expensive when purchasing in South African Rand currency. I did look at all possible known designs and did not see a workable option other than drill/tap and soldering a ghost ring to the cocking sleeve surface.

As usual when working on a difficult issue I turned to my mentor Johan Greyling to discuss my options and explain what options I already explored. We sat down and took a long hard look at every aspect and part of the bolt. After deliberation and discussions and assistance from Johan Greyling I took the following route:

We decided the best option to get a sound base is to remove the flag safety and substitute it with the ghost ring base. I then copied the flag safety , file down the base ( I removed too much from the base) , but will use this item as a prototype ....when completed I will turn another one sine I now have all the dimensions.

This duplicate safety fits real snug in the safety housing.This will serve as a base for mounting a ghost ring. The ghost ring will be adjustable in height and wind-age will be adjusted by the front sight/bead.

Keep in mind members, there is another slide safety on the right side of the action that locks up the bolt.

As mentioned before I can increase the width of the disk to dove tail a ghost ring fully adjustable..I now have a lot of options on this sound base...

Removing the flag safety:

Turning a duplicate safety, just shorter :

Filing the safety to fit :

New safety, the base for the ghost ring extremely stable , no movement when lock in place ...
New safety, the base for the ghost ring extremely stable , no movement when lock in place ..Notice the base filed onto the new safety and the flat base on the cocking sleeve :

Safety fit into the safety housing , the disk ensure a broad base to fit the ghost ring and is extremely stable since it is standing on a flat base and under spring tension.

Ghost ring base secured and fit snug into the housing with spring tension keeping it on a flat base, no lateral/side to side movement at all:

Next phase will follow, constructing the ghost ring aperture sight...

I will keep the original flag safety in a safe place . When receiving my extra Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt I will have an extra bolt sleeve ..

Edited by GPJ12345 (06/07/16 06:34 AM)

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Kano
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#284935 - 07/07/16 06:10 PM

GPJ, great idea! Keep the pics coming...

--------------------
Philip

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
#285034 - 10/07/16 09:38 PM

Update:
Kano, here are photos of the completed ghost-ring aperture sight:

Completed:

Working now on the front sight bead....

I took it to the range yesterday and it worked splendidly ..it really shot accurately and it looks good on the rifle...I do have time to work on a front sight bead that will be a little wider/thicker for use for my eyesight...
I used a gas torch to color the sight..I was aiming for Peacock blue but missed the temperature , it went past peacock blue into this color ...I am contemplating heat treat coloring the cocking piece to the same color with the gas torch....

Edited by GPJ12345 (10/07/16 09:49 PM)

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xausa
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285040 - 11/07/16 02:20 AM

Gert,

Amazing! A totsally new approach to sighting a Mannlicher Schoenauer, and nobody else had ever thought of it before.

I can't tell, is the aperture threaded? If not, you might consider doing it. You could screw in a sight insert to use for precision work, like ammunition development, on the range.

I have only one M/S with a side safety, a late model one which was in .270 when I bought it, but wich I had rebored and rechambered to 9.3X62 by the late Jim Dubell. If I didn't already have a Model 36 Lyman for it, I would consider using your idea for a ghost ring sight.

There is an Austrian company which has taken over the manufacture of M/S parts, and they are selling a complete system for replacing the shotgun type safety, available with some late models,
mounted on the wrist of the stock. That might be preferable to the side safety, which at least on my M/S, makes a loud click when releasing it preparatory to fining a shot.

I don't know whether their parts kit can be used to convert an existing rifle to such an arrangement, or whether it can only be used as a replacement for one originally manufactured with the rifle. I have emailed the company asking whether such an alteration is possible. Unfortunately for non-German readers, the site is entirely in German.

http://xn--mannlich-schnauer-b0b.com/epa...Path=Categories

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
#285041 - 11/07/16 02:33 AM

Good day to you Xausa

Thank you kindly for the reply, it is much appreciated. Xausa , yes I think this type of ghost ring set-up is an excellent substitute for an expensive scout mount system . My eyesight is still good enough to shoot out to 100 meters but I will only use the Mannlicher Schoenauer .458 on walk and stalk hunts for warthog and table fair game.
Xausa, I am currently busy working on a new front sight bead, a little wider /bigger that the current one...I will make use of warthog tusk ivory since it does not fade into yellow but keep the white ivory...I will make use of brass as well.

Thank you for the advise to thread the ghost ring stem..it will ensure finer adjustments to shoot more accurately ...I will incorporate it in a new fully adjustable ghost ring aperture sight as a future build...

Xausa, on this photo you will notice a grub screw...although not threaded I can do fine adjustments ..but a threaded post will definitely be the most appropriated system.

It was my intention to thread the aperture hole to thread in a smaller aperture for finer shooting work as you have suggested...

Regards

Gert

Edited by GPJ12345 (11/07/16 06:22 AM)

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285068 - 12/07/16 03:07 AM

Update:
I spend time today on turning an aperture insert with smaller apertures that screw into the ghost ring aperture. I am still experimenting in regards to the form these screw -inn needs to have. I tried a funnel style screw-in aperture . Will try a square aperture screw-in tomorrow to see what is best.

I did spend time to turn a warthog tusk bead as well, still needs to true the bead and glue it into the 1 mm hole drilled with a hand drill....

Screw insert:

Two different size apertures screw inns:

I did use a piece of warthog tusk to turn a larger front sight bead as well...will experiment with the best suitable bead still....

I filled down an insert to fit into the slot of the island v-express sight that I had to removed when fitted the ghost ring sight:

Edited by GPJ12345 (12/07/16 04:12 AM)

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MRobinson
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285075 - 12/07/16 08:09 AM

Well done!

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Mike

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VonGruff
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: MRobinson]
#285078 - 12/07/16 12:11 PM

That is looking really good Gert and the warthog tusk should do the trick for finding the front sight in any ighting conditions. I expect you will shorten up the length of the bead itself when you get the size sorted. I have flat topped blades for all my aperture sighted rifles and have made the front sights .05 (1.3mm) but for a bead I would have thought about .08 (2mm) would be about right (you are not looking at a moon sight are you?).

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: VonGruff]
#285102 - 12/07/16 06:04 PM

Good day to you Von Gruff
I will make another few warthog beads in the course of time to test when taking the rifle to the range again. I then will focus on how accurate I will be able to shoot the Mannlicher Schoenauer off-hand at eighty meters and hundred meters.

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lonewulf
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285104 - 12/07/16 11:35 PM

Quote:

Good day members
Would my assumption be correct if I say that according to knowledgeable persons the Manlicher Schonauer became to expensive to build? What other influences lead to the demise of the real Mannlicher Schonauer up to the 1950 era? I do like historical information regarding manufacturing of venerable calibers of old...

Two issues killed the M-S back in the 1970s. The major contributing factor was, as you rightly note, cost. M-S rifles were always significantly more expensive than contemporary US built mass production rifles and this eventually reached breaking point in the late 1960s. The other significant factor was the relative difficulty of mounting a scope sight due to the split-bridge receiver on these rifles. In the 1960 and 70s the use of scope sights became pretty much universal. M-S rifles could be scoped of course, but at the expense of greater complexity and cost.

Edited by lonewulf (12/07/16 11:37 PM)

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xausa
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
#285106 - 13/07/16 01:37 AM

Quote:

There is an Austrian company which has taken over the manufacture of M/S parts, and they are selling a complete system for replacing the shotgun type safety, available with some late models,
mounted on the wrist of the stock. That might be preferable to the side safety, which at least on my M/S, makes a loud click when releasing it preparatory to fining a shot.

I don't know whether their parts kit can be used to convert an existing rifle to such an arrangement, or whether it can only be used as a replacement for one originally manufactured with the rifle. I have emailed the company asking whether such an alteration is possible. Unfortunately for non-German readers, the site is entirely in German.

http://xn--mannlich-schnauer-b0b.com/epa...Path=Categories

I received a reply to my enquiry about retrofitting their safety, and the owner assured me that it can be fitted and that the only difficulty presented was the task of properly inletting the device up to the rear of the receiver.

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
#285109 - 13/07/16 03:16 AM

Lonewolf
Yes , you are quite correct. Being too expensive to manufacture is definitely the major factor. for myself, is unable to scope the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer, that is why I took the ghost ring design route. Since the .458 MS is a dangerous game rifle I do not need a scope. I will even be able to hunt /walk and stalk with this rifle now and use the ghost ring`s different aperture sight to do target shooting as well.

Xausa, it is good news...I hope you will be able to do it the way you want it to be done. I have ordered brass solid /cutting edge bullets from a company called Impala Bullets in South Africa. The owner is Kobus Du Plessis , his service is from excellent to great...his bullet price is excellent as well and the quality extremely good. This bullet is from brass, it acts like a solid but have a cutting edge that punch a round hole through the game you shoot , it really is good bullets to use on warthog , impala and very much every thing that walks the good earth...I will b re-loading these bullets to shoot from the .458 MS shortly.

This will give me a good idea of how far and accurate I will be able to hunt with the MS.

Edited by GPJ12345 (13/07/16 03:22 AM)

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Vladymere
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285221 - 15/07/16 03:56 AM

GPJ12345,

Excellent work! As some of my brethren in the southern US might say "slicker than snot on a doorknob".

I am going to copy and archive this thread as I may be tempted to do this myself, with your permission.

Vlad

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
#285230 - 15/07/16 06:44 AM

Vlad, thank you for the kind reply, it is much appreciated.

You are more than welcome to use this idea, this is what knowledge is all about, we need to share knowledge, then we have achieve something in life, then we have left something behind to the world to work on...

I re-loaded fifty rounds for the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer today to do some shooting with the ghost ring to learn how to shoot it from different postures and positions...

I will make use of the different sizes aperture I turned on the lathe to see what works with my eyes...

I ordered the 475 gn Impala solid bullets to re-load and will see how effective/accurate these bullets are...will give some feedback ...

Edited by GPJ12345 (15/07/16 06:51 AM)

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Vladymere
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285242 - 15/07/16 10:43 AM

GPJ12345,

Thank you. Archive it I shall.

50 rounds off the bench. I bet that will rock you. My experience with 9mm and 9.5mm rifles off the bench is that after a few rounds they tend to be brutal. I use a shoulder mounted recoil pad for load testing with these rifles. Out in the field, hunting, you never feel the shot.

Vlad

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
#285258 - 15/07/16 04:24 PM

Vlad, no I do not make use of bench work when shooting the .458 MS, I do off hand shooting and use shooting sticks. When going to the shooting range I usually take more than one rifle with since I want to shoot as many rifles as possible that is standing in my safe. My family joins in and they shoot the other big bore rifles for fun.
I have completed a scope fit on my 404 Jeffery , it is a 1.5-5x20 VARI 111 Leopold , I zeroed it at at 20 meters( to shoot one inch high at 100 meters in our shooting tunnel) but I need to do it on the shooting range to make sure it shoot where I aim..

Shooting at the range is a lot of fun, I have two brothers who do not own big bore caliber rifles, they love to shoot these rifles ....
web page
web page
Here is a video where a friend om mine`s daughter who hunts with her father every year, shooting her own kudu, impala warthog and blesbok shoot the .458 Ms ...she handles the recoil excellently..
web page

Edited by GPJ12345 (15/07/16 04:35 PM)

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
#285615 - 25/07/16 01:03 AM

Good day members
Update on the ghost-ring`s functionality , I participated in a dangerous game course yesterday . Took the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer and 404 Jeffery along . I shot the .458 Manlicher Schoenauer on all three ranges , shooting at different targets at different distances, as well as moving targets, I made use of the ghost rig aperture sight as is and used the two different size aperture screw -inns, distances varied fro five meter out to forty meters...I did not miss any target and I got excellent groups..I shot thirty four rounds at different targets...I am starting to use the ghost ring more effective and will definitely use the rifle to hunt on walk and stalk hunts...