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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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458Win
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Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
      #284204 - 21/06/16 04:44 AM

The Lyman 36 is a good option. I have one on my 1903 also and just sold one for the later model 1952 to a guy on the forum. Another cheaper option would be the Williams sight where the aperture slides on a ramp for elevation. John Barsness has a couple of photos of his 1903 with one of those on it in the May 2015 issue of the American Rifleman magazine.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
      #284368 - 23/06/16 09:23 AM

I also recommend the Lyman sight as it is a direct bolt stop replacement and requires no modifications to the rifle. Also the rifle can be returned to it's original state with little effort by reinstalling the original bolt stop. All this is done without drilling, tapping or modifying the stock.

You may think that the aperture bridge that is over the bolt will interfere with working the bolt. Not so as the aperture bridge is on a pivot so that when you pull the bolt back the bolt handle pushes the aperture bridge out of the way and then the aperture bridge will return to the proper position when the bolt is closed.

The only problem will be in locating a Lyman sight but patience and perseverance will prevail.

As an aside you will find that the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle has such a slick action that if you open the bolt, hold the rifle level, hold the trigger down and then turn the rifle 45 degrees, muzzle down, the bolt will slide forward and down into the closed position. The only other rifle I know of that will do this the Gewehr 88 and the Gew. 88 sporting rifle derivatives.

You, Sir, have a wonderful rifle!

Vlad

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GPJ12345
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Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
      #284556 - 27/06/16 05:49 AM

Yes, Philip, it is one option to look at, drill and tap, since I just bought another Mannlicher Schoenauer complete bolt today..now I have some backing when making a mistake that is not likely..I will do the ghost ring/peep sight and make it in two versions, one to dovetail on cocking piece sleeve other one to hinge on the back of the cocking piece sleeve ..

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
      #284558 - 27/06/16 05:58 AM

Thank you Vlad., yes, I agree , the swing sight of Lyman is definitely the way to go, I do have a contact which may sell me such a sight...meanwhile I need to solve this puzzle myself, since I do know there are a bunch of other Mannlicher Schoenauer owners who experience the same difficulty..If I can provide a decent . functional ghost ring sight, I am sure I will have solve a problem for many other owners...I always liked a challenge..

Gert

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GPJ12345
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Reged: 18/08/12
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284559 - 27/06/16 06:00 AM

.458 Win. this sight you are talking about is also something I will take a look at..if I can build it smaller it might work to soft solder to the cocking piece rail/surface..


Edited by GPJ12345 (27/06/16 06:02 AM)

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Kano
.300 member


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 166
Loc: East Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284574 - 27/06/16 03:41 PM

Gert, check the sight height you need: the sights on the MS are quite low, and if your rear sight is higher than the original leaf, you'll need a taller front sight.

You can't go very high at the front without replacing the ramp, and a tall ramp does not look nice.

How do you want to use the peep? The original tang peep on the MS is only used to put the rear leaf and front blade in focus. If you want to use the aperture as rear sight, you have to remove the rear leaf from the barrel.

On my other rifles I use aperture sights, no leafs on barrel, and fiber optic fronts (CZ rifles, ERA/Recknagel peep sights). I've got a couple of MS rifles at hand and will check the heights available. I also have a cocking piece that has been butchered by a quack smith, and that I can use to experiment.

My own 1903 will arrive in a few weeks, by then I hope to have the peep sight layout ready so I can install it immediately.

--------------------
Philip

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
      #284576 - 27/06/16 04:07 PM

Hallo Kano
Yes, I need to remove the flip up island sight..I will mill another substitute to fill the gap and store my sight. I already measured the gap from the surface of the cocking piece..it is seven millimeters in height, not much to work with ...Kano, I know of a Lyman 36 sight available for purchase, if you are interested I can forward you the details...I will be back next week and start with the sight building project. Please keep me up to date with your experiments .

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458Win
.333 member


Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284593 - 28/06/16 03:02 AM

Yes, that is the one. Besides being inexpensive and available is that It is lightweight aluminum and less likely to adversely affect bolt operation

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
      #284894 - 06/07/16 06:22 AM

Good day members
This is where I am currently with the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer`s ghost ring build. After a lot of deliberations, research, options and design issues looking from every angle to this setup and what will work best I decided to take this route. Keep in mind the Lyman ghost rings are just too expensive when purchasing in South African Rand currency. I did look at all possible known designs and did not see a workable option other than drill/tap and soldering a ghost ring to the cocking sleeve surface.

As usual when working on a difficult issue I turned to my mentor Johan Greyling to discuss my options and explain what options I already explored. We sat down and took a long hard look at every aspect and part of the bolt. After deliberation and discussions and assistance from Johan Greyling I took the following route:

We decided the best option to get a sound base is to remove the flag safety and substitute it with the ghost ring base. I then copied the flag safety , file down the base ( I removed too much from the base) , but will use this item as a prototype ....when completed I will turn another one sine I now have all the dimensions.

This duplicate safety fits real snug in the safety housing.This will serve as a base for mounting a ghost ring. The ghost ring will be adjustable in height and wind-age will be adjusted by the front sight/bead.

Keep in mind members, there is another slide safety on the right side of the action that locks up the bolt.

As mentioned before I can increase the width of the disk to dove tail a ghost ring fully adjustable..I now have a lot of options on this sound base...

Removing the flag safety:




Turning a duplicate safety, just shorter :



Filing the safety to fit :


New safety, the base for the ghost ring extremely stable , no movement when lock in place ...
New safety, the base for the ghost ring extremely stable , no movement when lock in place ..Notice the base filed onto the new safety and the flat base on the cocking sleeve :


Safety fit into the safety housing , the disk ensure a broad base to fit the ghost ring and is extremely stable since it is standing on a flat base and under spring tension.

Ghost ring base secured and fit snug into the housing with spring tension keeping it on a flat base, no lateral/side to side movement at all:




Next phase will follow, constructing the ghost ring aperture sight...

I will keep the original flag safety in a safe place . When receiving my extra Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt I will have an extra bolt sleeve ..


Edited by GPJ12345 (06/07/16 06:34 AM)

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Kano
.300 member


Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 166
Loc: East Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284935 - 07/07/16 06:10 PM

GPJ, great idea! Keep the pics coming...

--------------------
Philip

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
      #285034 - 10/07/16 09:38 PM

Update:
Kano, here are photos of the completed ghost-ring aperture sight:



Completed:

Working now on the front sight bead....


I took it to the range yesterday and it worked splendidly ..it really shot accurately and it looks good on the rifle...I do have time to work on a front sight bead that will be a little wider/thicker for use for my eyesight...
I used a gas torch to color the sight..I was aiming for Peacock blue but missed the temperature , it went past peacock blue into this color ...I am contemplating heat treat coloring the cocking piece to the same color with the gas torch....




Edited by GPJ12345 (10/07/16 09:49 PM)

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285040 - 11/07/16 02:20 AM

Gert,

Amazing! A totsally new approach to sighting a Mannlicher Schoenauer, and nobody else had ever thought of it before.

I can't tell, is the aperture threaded? If not, you might consider doing it. You could screw in a sight insert to use for precision work, like ammunition development, on the range.

I have only one M/S with a side safety, a late model one which was in .270 when I bought it, but wich I had rebored and rechambered to 9.3X62 by the late Jim Dubell. If I didn't already have a Model 36 Lyman for it, I would consider using your idea for a ghost ring sight.

There is an Austrian company which has taken over the manufacture of M/S parts, and they are selling a complete system for replacing the shotgun type safety, available with some late models,
mounted on the wrist of the stock. That might be preferable to the side safety, which at least on my M/S, makes a loud click when releasing it preparatory to fining a shot.

I don't know whether their parts kit can be used to convert an existing rifle to such an arrangement, or whether it can only be used as a replacement for one originally manufactured with the rifle. I have emailed the company asking whether such an alteration is possible. Unfortunately for non-German readers, the site is entirely in German.

http://xn--mannlich-schnauer-b0b.com/epa...Path=Categories

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
      #285041 - 11/07/16 02:33 AM

Good day to you Xausa

Thank you kindly for the reply, it is much appreciated. Xausa , yes I think this type of ghost ring set-up is an excellent substitute for an expensive scout mount system . My eyesight is still good enough to shoot out to 100 meters but I will only use the Mannlicher Schoenauer .458 on walk and stalk hunts for warthog and table fair game.
Xausa, I am currently busy working on a new front sight bead, a little wider /bigger that the current one...I will make use of warthog tusk ivory since it does not fade into yellow but keep the white ivory...I will make use of brass as well.

Thank you for the advise to thread the ghost ring stem..it will ensure finer adjustments to shoot more accurately ...I will incorporate it in a new fully adjustable ghost ring aperture sight as a future build...

Xausa, on this photo you will notice a grub screw...although not threaded I can do fine adjustments ..but a threaded post will definitely be the most appropriated system.

It was my intention to thread the aperture hole to thread in a smaller aperture for finer shooting work as you have suggested...

Regards

Gert


Edited by GPJ12345 (11/07/16 06:22 AM)

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285068 - 12/07/16 03:07 AM

Update:
I spend time today on turning an aperture insert with smaller apertures that screw into the ghost ring aperture. I am still experimenting in regards to the form these screw -inn needs to have. I tried a funnel style screw-in aperture . Will try a square aperture screw-in tomorrow to see what is best.

I did spend time to turn a warthog tusk bead as well, still needs to true the bead and glue it into the 1 mm hole drilled with a hand drill....

Screw insert:

Two different size apertures screw inns:


I did use a piece of warthog tusk to turn a larger front sight bead as well...will experiment with the best suitable bead still....









I filled down an insert to fit into the slot of the island v-express sight that I had to removed when fitted the ghost ring sight:




Edited by GPJ12345 (12/07/16 04:12 AM)

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MRobinson
.275 member


Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285075 - 12/07/16 08:09 AM

Well done!

--------------------
Mike

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: MRobinson]
      #285078 - 12/07/16 12:11 PM

That is looking really good Gert and the warthog tusk should do the trick for finding the front sight in any ighting conditions. I expect you will shorten up the length of the bead itself when you get the size sorted. I have flat topped blades for all my aperture sighted rifles and have made the front sights .05 (1.3mm) but for a bead I would have thought about .08 (2mm) would be about right (you are not looking at a moon sight are you?).

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: VonGruff]
      #285102 - 12/07/16 06:04 PM

Good day to you Von Gruff
I will make another few warthog beads in the course of time to test when taking the rifle to the range again. I then will focus on how accurate I will be able to shoot the Mannlicher Schoenauer off-hand at eighty meters and hundred meters.

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285104 - 12/07/16 11:35 PM

Quote:

Good day members
Would my assumption be correct if I say that according to knowledgeable persons the Manlicher Schonauer became to expensive to build? What other influences lead to the demise of the real Mannlicher Schonauer up to the 1950 era? I do like historical information regarding manufacturing of venerable calibers of old...





Two issues killed the M-S back in the 1970s. The major contributing factor was, as you rightly note, cost. M-S rifles were always significantly more expensive than contemporary US built mass production rifles and this eventually reached breaking point in the late 1960s. The other significant factor was the relative difficulty of mounting a scope sight due to the split-bridge receiver on these rifles. In the 1960 and 70s the use of scope sights became pretty much universal. M-S rifles could be scoped of course, but at the expense of greater complexity and cost.

Edited by lonewulf (12/07/16 11:37 PM)

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
      #285106 - 13/07/16 01:37 AM

Quote:

There is an Austrian company which has taken over the manufacture of M/S parts, and they are selling a complete system for replacing the shotgun type safety, available with some late models,
mounted on the wrist of the stock. That might be preferable to the side safety, which at least on my M/S, makes a loud click when releasing it preparatory to fining a shot.

I don't know whether their parts kit can be used to convert an existing rifle to such an arrangement, or whether it can only be used as a replacement for one originally manufactured with the rifle. I have emailed the company asking whether such an alteration is possible. Unfortunately for non-German readers, the site is entirely in German.

http://xn--mannlich-schnauer-b0b.com/epa...Path=Categories





I received a reply to my enquiry about retrofitting their safety, and the owner assured me that it can be fitted and that the only difficulty presented was the task of properly inletting the device up to the rear of the receiver.

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: xausa]
      #285109 - 13/07/16 03:16 AM

Lonewolf
Yes , you are quite correct. Being too expensive to manufacture is definitely the major factor. for myself, is unable to scope the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer, that is why I took the ghost ring design route. Since the .458 MS is a dangerous game rifle I do not need a scope. I will even be able to hunt /walk and stalk with this rifle now and use the ghost ring`s different aperture sight to do target shooting as well.

Xausa, it is good news...I hope you will be able to do it the way you want it to be done. I have ordered brass solid /cutting edge bullets from a company called Impala Bullets in South Africa. The owner is Kobus Du Plessis , his service is from excellent to great...his bullet price is excellent as well and the quality extremely good. This bullet is from brass, it acts like a solid but have a cutting edge that punch a round hole through the game you shoot , it really is good bullets to use on warthog , impala and very much every thing that walks the good earth...I will b re-loading these bullets to shoot from the .458 MS shortly.

This will give me a good idea of how far and accurate I will be able to hunt with the MS.




Edited by GPJ12345 (13/07/16 03:22 AM)

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285221 - 15/07/16 03:56 AM

GPJ12345,

Excellent work! As some of my brethren in the southern US might say "slicker than snot on a doorknob".

I am going to copy and archive this thread as I may be tempted to do this myself, with your permission.

Vlad

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
      #285230 - 15/07/16 06:44 AM

Vlad, thank you for the kind reply, it is much appreciated.

You are more than welcome to use this idea, this is what knowledge is all about, we need to share knowledge, then we have achieve something in life, then we have left something behind to the world to work on...

I re-loaded fifty rounds for the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer today to do some shooting with the ghost ring to learn how to shoot it from different postures and positions...

I will make use of the different sizes aperture I turned on the lathe to see what works with my eyes...

I ordered the 475 gn Impala solid bullets to re-load and will see how effective/accurate these bullets are...will give some feedback ...

Edited by GPJ12345 (15/07/16 06:51 AM)

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285242 - 15/07/16 10:43 AM

GPJ12345,

Thank you. Archive it I shall.

50 rounds off the bench. I bet that will rock you. My experience with 9mm and 9.5mm rifles off the bench is that after a few rounds they tend to be brutal. I use a shoulder mounted recoil pad for load testing with these rifles. Out in the field, hunting, you never feel the shot.

Vlad

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Vladymere]
      #285258 - 15/07/16 04:24 PM

Vlad, no I do not make use of bench work when shooting the .458 MS, I do off hand shooting and use shooting sticks. When going to the shooting range I usually take more than one rifle with since I want to shoot as many rifles as possible that is standing in my safe. My family joins in and they shoot the other big bore rifles for fun.
I have completed a scope fit on my 404 Jeffery , it is a 1.5-5x20 VARI 111 Leopold , I zeroed it at at 20 meters( to shoot one inch high at 100 meters in our shooting tunnel) but I need to do it on the shooting range to make sure it shoot where I aim..

Shooting at the range is a lot of fun, I have two brothers who do not own big bore caliber rifles, they love to shoot these rifles ....
web page
web page
Here is a video where a friend om mine`s daughter who hunts with her father every year, shooting her own kudu, impala warthog and blesbok shoot the .458 Ms ...she handles the recoil excellently..
web page

Edited by GPJ12345 (15/07/16 04:35 PM)

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GPJ12345
.300 member


Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #285615 - 25/07/16 01:03 AM

Good day members
Update on the ghost-ring`s functionality , I participated in a dangerous game course yesterday . Took the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer and 404 Jeffery along . I shot the .458 Manlicher Schoenauer on all three ranges , shooting at different targets at different distances, as well as moving targets, I made use of the ghost rig aperture sight as is and used the two different size aperture screw -inns, distances varied fro five meter out to forty meters...I did not miss any target and I got excellent groups..I shot thirty four rounds at different targets...I am starting to use the ghost ring more effective and will definitely use the rifle to hunt on walk and stalk hunts...




Edited by GPJ12345 (25/07/16 01:06 AM)

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