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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: kuduae]
      #256557 - 11/11/14 12:45 AM

Quote:

As Gert asked me by PM: The action is a typical M-S 1956 “Magnum” action, straight, low bolt handle, bolt stop spring placed higher on the receiver bridge to make way for a reinforcing boss that serves the bolt guide rib as a third, safety only, locking lug. The bolt is polished bright as on all M-Ss intended for the American market. To date it closer, look for the Vienna proofhouse NPv Nitro proofmark, maybe covered by the wood. Besides this mark there ought to be the last two digits of the year.
The stock left the factory as a MC stock with an exaggerated “Monte Carlo” comb, designed for Stoeger and intended for scope use only. It shows other influences of the then fashionable Weatherby/California style too, like the white-line spacers. As the rifle was never scoped, the MC stock was highly impractical for open sight use. A former owner had the comb line lowered and the exaggerated cheekpiece hollowed out to make it usable with the open sights. Such trimming down of MC stocks was quite common and led to the creation of the more restrained MCA stock. So the stock is not “factory original” anymore. There is no reason why you should not modify it further to suit your shooting habits.
Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 are very rare. At the time they were offered the pre-64 Winchester 70 was the “in” big game rifle, praised by American writers and cheaper to boot. The British usually preferred Mauser M98 actioned rifles. Because of the forward position of the bolthandle the M-S rifles were badmouthed then by American writers like Elmer Keith as “slow to operate, unsuitable for rapid follow up shots”. During the 1950s very few European hunters could afford an African safari. So there was little demand for a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in a “stopping rifle” caliber. As I wrote before, even the “magnum” Mannlicher-Schoenauer action is too short for a more flexible magnum like the .375 H&H, further diminishing the popularity. And, factory fitting a .458 rifle with such a stock designed for scope use only can only be described as an outright bum idea. So here you have the reasons why Mannlicher-Schoenauers in .458 never sold in high numbers and are rarely seen today.



Kuduae, thank you kindly for the much informative reply, this is the most info I got from searching and asking about this specific rifle and caliber...it really is much appreciated..I still am going to build myself a nice big bore stock and store this original stock..then I can shoot this rifle open sights and add a scope as well if possible..

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kuduae
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #256572 - 11/11/14 06:10 AM

Quote:

So here is a question, Kuduae (who I think has forgotten more about these MS rifles than I will ever learn) and everyone else. For someone who shoots a shotgun or double rifle with measurements as follows.... LOP 15"top, 14 7/8" mid, 15 1/8" heel, cast off 1/4", drop to comb 1 3/8", drop to heel 2 3/8" but whose bolt rifles are stocked at 14 1/2", how would you stock one of these MS .458 for a compromise, irons, maybe an aperture and a QD scope bearing in mind eye relief on the scope of course ?? Looking forward to hear the replies, thanks in advance, Mike



Sorry. Mike, but I cannot give any advice here. Though I have made some stocks for my own use, I am far from being a stockmaker. I am not very familiar with the imperial measurements, but some of the numbers you give in 1/8” = 3.2 mm make me lol. The clothing you wear on a given day while hunting will easily make a difference of 2/8s. It all depends on your own shape. And don’t forget the shape of your face! In making a rifle stock for my own use I am only concerned with LOP mid and pitch at first. Cast is relatively unimportant in a rifle stock. Height of comb/drop cannot be judged without thickness of comb, as a thicker comb appears to be higher. I usually don’t use any cheekpiece, as my face only touches a stock for about 3cm at the comb. A cheekpiece, unless very exaggerated, simply hangs out in the air below my face. So it is just useless wood for my use. The rest is just cut and try until the stock is comfortable for me, maybe noone else. Only then comes the stock finish. And, I don’t shy away from altering a stock I cannot adjust to. My own refinishes usually beat any factory stock finish.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: kuduae]
      #256573 - 11/11/14 07:04 AM

Thanks for the input Kuduae, I realise all measurements will be variable on what you are wearing and small differences you can easily compensate for. I was more interested in the "compromise" question when it comes to stocking for irons or scopes, best, Mike

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kuduae
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #256575 - 11/11/14 07:42 AM

The "compromise" should be slated to the most serious use the rifle will get. In a "stopping rifle" to be used at short range in a serious emergency it should be optimized for open sight use. If it is to be mostly used scoped as an all around rifle, the open sight for emergency use only after a scope failure, the open sights fit may be less than optimum.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #256584 - 11/11/14 02:17 PM

Quote:

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike



.......................................NO! and it would be an unforgivable sin! That is the rarest rifle built by Mannlicher Schoenauer, and was among the last of that line. I would guess that no more than about 100 were made!

...........................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Igorrock
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #256592 - 11/11/14 07:40 PM

Quote:

That is the rarest rifle built by Mannlicher Schoenauer

I suspect that MS in caliber 10,75x68 is the rarest one but it´s true that you don´t see .458`s so often.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Hemihead
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Igorrock]
      #256616 - 12/11/14 06:52 AM

It's my understanding they only made the .244Rem(6mm Rem) one year,1959.

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Hemihead]
      #256631 - 12/11/14 06:05 PM

Good day members
Would my assumption be correct if I say that according to knowledgeable persons the Manlicher Schonauer became to expensive to build? What other influences lead to the demise of the real Mannlicher Schonauer up to the 1950 era? I do like historical information regarding manufacturing of venerable calibers of old...

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #256699 - 14/11/14 06:44 AM

Does anyone have the email or contact details for Terry Irwin (PH who used an MS in .458), thanks in advance, Mike

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ozhunter
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #256738 - 14/11/14 06:10 PM

Congratulations there.
If you hand load then you would do well with WOODLEIGH 480grn 458Win projectiles. really great bullet for such a rifle. I too would buy it if it came up...

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #256781 - 15/11/14 03:44 PM

it was the increased production cost that killed the MS in the early 1970s

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
      #256818 - 16/11/14 06:21 AM

Thank you Lancaster, I appreciate the reply.

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #257378 - 30/11/14 11:37 PM

I opened up the rifle to have a look at the rotary magazine...a few photos to show the inside of the magazine.I opened the rifle for the first time since I got it ...it was not cleaned up but that have been corrected after the photo session...

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #257379 - 01/12/14 01:45 AM

Quote:

I opened up the rifle to have a look at the rotary magazine...a few photos to show the inside of the magazine.I opened the rifle for the first time since I got it ...it was not cleaned up but that have been corrected after the photo session...




where the problem? all of my rifle's looking like this or much worse
interesting detail pics to end all dreams about rechambering into something bigger

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
      #257387 - 01/12/14 04:35 AM

Hallo Lancaster
Good to hear from you again, no I commenced cleaning the magazine , but this rifle has been cleaned a lot of years previously...it took a while to clean out and still some stains still stuck onto the surfaces...why do any one want to upgrade/re chamber a .458 Win Mag...???if you are not able to kill an elephant with this caliber( probably the caliber that killed the most dangerous game the past decades...????) then maybe a light machine gun is an option...I am contemplating shortening the stock to fit my physique ..maybe an inch or two..since the stock and pull of trigger is too long. This will be the shortest way to get it fit to shoot instead of building a new stock...I will not make any other changes to the stock...it needs to be original..

Edited by GPJ12345 (01/12/14 04:36 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #257393 - 01/12/14 05:48 AM

Quote:

A question, could you rechamber to .458 Lott, would the cartridge still function in the magazine ? thx, Mike



you know how people think about the 458 Win Mag today and the first question about a rifle for this cartridge is allmost ever if it can be rechambered into something more powerful.

the mannlicher schönauer can not

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: lancaster]
      #257394 - 01/12/14 06:00 AM

Yes, you are correct, an old experienced hunter made a remark regarding the calibers hunters are using ....to him it seems the animals has evolved into targets with very thick skin and bones and are extremely difficult to kill... hence the muzzle velocity off calibers are increasing at a rapid pace , only felt recoil put a damper on the velocity increase needed to kill animals...maybe it is a good thing since the next re- cambering will be a Lott 458 ...that will remove any teeth fillings I have...I am prone to head-aches......

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #269666 - 27/08/15 04:54 AM

Some feedback members:

I will be shooting the .458 Win Mag Mannlicher Shoenauer for the first time at a Big Bore Shooting day this weekend. I re-load it with 420 gn cast bullets with gas checks. I did shoot four rounds today to make sure it is accurate ...at twenty five meters( indoor shooting range) I hit the bull twice..the other two rounds did miss the bull ( black circle twenty millimeters in diameter) by five millimeters.

It will be a great pleasure to shoot this old classic this coming week end...

Edited by GPJ12345 (27/08/15 04:55 AM)

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Bidgee
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #269677 - 27/08/15 09:41 AM

Hi Gert,

Sounds like a good way to spend the weekend, should be nice and sunny for you.

Are you going to put a full magazine through on the Cape Buffalo target?

Cheers

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Bidgee]
      #269690 - 28/08/15 01:10 AM

Hallo Bidgee
The BASA organizers always take a lot of effort and time to presents a extremely good and challenging set up for the competitors.I just want to have fun and learn to shoot this rifle well.

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GPJ12345
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284151 - 20/06/16 03:18 AM

Update: After a long spell of contemplating what to do with my .458 Mannicher Schoenauer regarding a scope fitting, with all the pro`s and cons of what scope base/rings will work, financial input to acquire a set of scope bases/rings which are out of my financial capability, and advice from members not ot scope a .458 Win Mag caliber.....I rejected the idea of fitting a scope on my .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer. I then worked on the next best option, to fit a functional ghost ring...

I went to Johan Greyling ( gunsmith/mentor) to take apart the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer `s bolt apart and to examine the cocking piece sleeve. I noticed I have extremely few millimeters of metal to drill and tap without altering the cocking piece sleeve and maybe damage it.
Decision:
We decided the best option I have is to make an exact duplication of the cocking piece bolt sleeve mantel ( the en-longed shiny piece of metal usually metal checkered that rides on the cocking piece)

Notice the piece of metal between the bolt handle and safety. That is what house the safety pin...it is hollow and does not have metal to drill and tap. Dove-tailing the sides of this piece is also not viable.

The bolt only from the top:


This is where I want to attach/soft solder the ghost ring`s base onto.
Cocking piece sleeve from the side:


I have narrowed my search down to a ghost ring sight used on the Marlin type of rifles:






Here is another type of ghost ring I can look at:


I did converse with a person on another forum whom is extremely knowledgeable in building
miniature/scale Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles as a hobby , to get his input and ask him to design an aperture sight for me along these examples I uploaded .
Members , as always your input is more than welcome in this regards...keep in mind the telescope option is redundant...anything in regards to a ghost ring is more than welcome..I am sure you will agree that it is sound advice not to scope this rifle as some of your members had indicated previously...

I am of the opinion that the location of the ghost ring sight will favor my ability to see a better /improved sight picture, since it is near my eyes and a long distance between the ghost ring sight and the front sight/bead. I will remove the island v-express sight ...

As mentioned, this is my next best option...somewhere in the future with aging eye syndrome..I will need to fit a scope to see what I am shooting at...

Edited by GPJ12345 (20/06/16 03:36 AM)

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casper50
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284152 - 20/06/16 03:43 AM

I can't use iron sights hardly at all anymore. But, a peep sight still works great. No need for a scope as long as I have the peep.

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458Win
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: GPJ12345]
      #284153 - 20/06/16 04:39 AM

i think you are on the right track with your idea of a peep sight mounted on the top of the cocking piece. At one time they were popular and King sight company made one called the" little Giant" them for MS, Mosin-Nagants, 98/40's and Berthier's like this one.
There are a lot of different sights out there today that could be modified or you can simply make one from a piece of angle iron or aluminum with a carefully drilled hole.



--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Kano
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: 458Win]
      #284158 - 20/06/16 06:31 AM

GPJ, I fully agree with the "no scope on this rifle" part, and I've been through the same questions regarding a peep - ending up at the same point: the best place to do that is on the top of the bolt sleeve/cocking piece. It's relatively easy to find a spare one to experiment and to use for that, keeping the original for later use if needed.

Now, that top is bored, but after 9-10mm the hole reduces in diameter, and there is actually enough "meat" to dovetail the top, or even to drill straight through for an aperture sight - approximately 2.5mm at maximum thickness.



If you drill for the peep, you won't have much room for vertical adjustment, and you'll need a very fine thread (0.5mm max, which gives you 0.25 mm adjustment for a half turn, which translates in 40-50mm of change at 100m, depending on your sight radius.

If you dovetail, you'll have more options.

Whatever you do, please keep us posted, I'm really keen to see the outcome because I'll soon have to do the same...

--------------------
Philip

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xausa
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Re: .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer [Re: Kano]
      #284187 - 20/06/16 09:28 PM

As far as a non-invasive receiver sight for a Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle is concerned, you can't beat this Lyman 36. No drilling and tapping required. The only problem will be finding one. There are two versions of the bolt stop and yours would be the later model, which only the later model sights will fit. This rifle has the older model.

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