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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
classic case of overkill...
      #173003 - 13/12/10 07:07 AM

Photo taken yesterday: Culling hunt for roe and boar, thawing snow and dizzling rain. My Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1910 vs. a small kid roebuck.

Rifle: Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 in of course 9.5x57 aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express, 20" barrel, prewar Zeiss Zielvier scope in claw mounts, Parker-Hale sportarget peep sight. Load: case formed from W-W 30-06, 270 gr Hornady rn (still have some in stock), 55gr VV N140 for 2310fps. Range about 70m.
During the last month this outfit has taken 2 boar and 5 roe deer.

Edited by CptCurl (13/12/10 09:08 AM)


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FATBOY404
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173007 - 13/12/10 07:27 AM

It looks a handy little rifle.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: FATBOY404]
      #173014 - 13/12/10 09:01 AM

Well-done! It really pays to use your big rifles as often as possible, including on the smaller creatures. Familiarity breeds success!

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9.3x57
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173028 - 13/12/10 11:53 AM

Quote:

270 gr Hornady rn (still have some in stock)




Ahhh, you know the deal.

This is a great post.

Great rifle, a hunt of service and to put a bit of venison in the freezer, too, I suspect.

Thanks again. I really like the carbine and load, too!

So much like my 9.3x57's...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #173033 - 13/12/10 03:28 PM

waidmannsheil

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: lancaster]
      #173039 - 13/12/10 06:29 PM

Hi Kuduae,

Well done, the melting snow makes a very impressive feature and at least the freezer is full for now.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: FATBOY404]
      #173063 - 14/12/10 08:26 AM

Quote:

It looks a handy little rifle.



You are right, that's why I use this rifle more than any other for our culling hunts. I took the photo not to brag about the kill, but as part of an answer to a question from another party: Did Mannlicher-Schoenauers with carbine-length barrels but half-stocked ever exist as a factory option? Obviously, yes!
To explain why I used this rifle on such a tiny roe, I have to tell about our kind of culling hunt. As a forester I work and live in slightly hilly country, stocked predominantly with hardwood forests of mixed age. We don't use the classic "driven boar hunt" any more, in which a small area of forest is surrounded by a closely spaced line of guns, a line of beaters setting the game to flight through the gunline. This was the European domain of the double rifle, but usually leads to a lot of wounded or miserably shot game. Instead, we place the hunters in strategic stands distributed over a larger forest area, if possible out of the "danger zone" of each other. Then a few beaters and a some dogs bred and trained for the job disturb the whole area to get all kinds of game moving, hoping it will try to pass one or more of the guns. As beaters and dogs are few and far apart, game will often be moving relatively slow or even pausing in sight of a hunter, allowing for more accurate shooting. Now, this type of hunting asks different tasks from the rifle used, as game may vary vastly in size, range and movement. First, the rifle has to be powerful enough for the heaviest task it may be presented, IE a non-trophy red deer at close to 200m, or a rear end raking shot at a big boar already wounded by another hunter. The next moment it has to be accurate enough to hit a roe deer at over 100m, presenting only the 3" wide neck, or the head of a fox at the same range. Then it has to be lively enough to shoot at a running boar passing at 30 paces, or, when "cleaning up" afterwards, stop an enraged boar in thick brush at 5 paces. You never know which task comes next, and there is no time to change more specialized rifles. This is not mere theory, but all these jobs were done for me by this M-Sch 1910.


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173143 - 15/12/10 06:56 AM

Here is a 100 lbs whitetail I took with my .375 H&H /w 235 grain speer at 110 yards. One world - one gun as the quote goes.



--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

Edited by CptCurl (17/12/10 11:43 PM)


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Paatti
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: bonanza]
      #173145 - 15/12/10 07:10 AM

Liked the rifle, liked the roe and liked the way you hunt very much! For the same kind of tasks I use a Sako battue 9,3x62 and as you may see it is accurate enough


Edited by CptCurl (17/12/10 11:45 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: bonanza]
      #173147 - 15/12/10 07:12 AM

"Load: case formed from W-W 30-06, 270 gr Hornady rn (still have some in stock), 55gr VV N140 for 2310fps"

is indeed an update from the original 2150 fps/655 m/sec and this with a carbine length barrel.
do you know if its under maximum pressure?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: lancaster]
      #173148 - 15/12/10 07:23 AM

[quote I have to tell about our kind of culling hunt. As a forester I work and live in slightly hilly country, stocked predominantly with hardwood forests of mixed age.




Very interesting.

My son is finishing his degree in Forestry Operations/Products but here a Forester is not involved in game culling, but rather exclusively forest and timber management. The disciplines here are separated. He would love to be a Forester in the German sense of the term!

As for the rifle, we have a couple carbines we use similarly if "varminting" is included in the use. A 17-inch barrel 6.5x55 and a 19-inch barrel 9.3x62. They are used all year for pretty much everything we have, including hundreds of small varmints. It is really quite difficult to put down a short barrel rifle once a fellow uses one a bit.

270 @ 2310 would be approaching the max performance I could reach in my 24-inch barrel 9.3x57's. That is a very fast load for a carbine length barrel though maybe the larger expansion ratio of the .375/9.5 bullet gives a pressure advantage here? My 9.3x62 runs just about 2300 with 285 grain bullets in my 19-inch barrel carbine.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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bonanza
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #173163 - 15/12/10 01:22 PM

I only have one word about a short bbl - loud.

I was at the rifle range Sat. and this dude came out with his S&W .50 revolver. Our shooting stations are covered so the concussion was more that I could take.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylS
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: bonanza]
      #173188 - 16/12/10 03:29 AM

I don't see a problem with that load from a Mannlicher.

My Husky Swede 9.3x57 does 2,300fps (23.4" bl.) with less than .001" expansion at the web - and the necks barely expand to release the bullet- no - the necks aren't that tight - and with higher pressure loads, will expand and stay at .001".

I should think 2,400fps to 2,425fps from a 24" would be about right, from a .98 - type action. At 25fps per inch (efficient cases), that works out to 2,300fps to 2,325fps from a 20" bl.

My 9.3x62 runs 2,519fps for 286's from a 22" bl. using BLC2. No other powder comes within 100fps. It also does
2,675fps with 270 Speers - probably a bit much for that bullet.

My 9.3x57 has become my favourite - GRAB rifle for a day hunt. It has 6 rounds on the neoprene stock ctg. fob - 3 with 293gr.TUGs and 3 with 232gr Vulcans. They impact 3 1/2" apart, vertically - perfect!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: DarylS]
      #173195 - 16/12/10 05:05 AM

I didn't mean to suggest the load was a dangerous load, as Daryl notes.

But it is darn good performance from a carbine.

Lots of folks think such shorties are guilty of poor or inadequate performance compared to the long tubers but first-users often become enthusiasts! I've fallen for my carbines and would love to have a 9.3x57 built on a Ruger action with a 17-inch barrel for a lot of my hunting here. My little 17-inch 6.5 is a dandy and a 9.3x57 like it would be a peach.

I've noticed a substantial amount of recoil reduction going from the x62 to the x57 case. A 9.5x57 would likewise be super, except with the 9.3 I can use 9.5mm/.375 bullets, too...as long as I resize them.

A 270/2300 is a darn good load for every critter we have here in Idaho and must be quite the Schweintoeter, too {if that's the right word...}.

The only thing wrong with kudae's carbine is...for me at least...IT HAS THE BOLT HANDLE ON THE WRONG SIDE!!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: bonanza]
      #173196 - 16/12/10 05:19 AM

Quote:

I only have one word about a short bbl - loud.




Paper-Puncher! When putting a rifle to real use, that is HUNTING, I never noticed neither noise nor blast nor recoil!


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173197 - 16/12/10 06:09 AM

kudae;

Indeed.

Here's a 19-inch 9.3x62. A little heavy and certainly does not handle like your M/S but handy enough;



And the 6.5 Ruger. Handy!





Taking care of tree-killing squirrels {a local state forester is begging for shooters to cull these things due to their destruction of seedlings on new plantations}. As Daryl knows, they are everywhere...



And on yotes;



Finally, a Stutzen 9.3x62 case of Overkill...



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by CptCurl (17/12/10 11:46 PM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #173199 - 16/12/10 06:33 AM

Today: case of slightly lesser overkill



German foresters are responsible for all aspects of the forests, including conservation and game management. One of the culling hunts described above.
The landscape from my stand, weather: frozen





Participants: 38 guns, 7 beaters, 8 dogs. Shooting time two hours, 10 to 12.
Very satisfactory result: 21 boar, 7 roe deer, 3 fox (not yet complete in the photo) One tracking job still going on.



BTW, the loudest thing I ever met at a range was a looong barreled custom .338 Lapua Magnum with a muzzle brake...

Edited by CptCurl (17/12/10 11:47 PM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173201 - 16/12/10 08:05 AM

Contrary to popular belief, the 9.5x57 M-Sch is not merely a necked-up 9.3x57. While the 9.3x57 case tapers from a 11.9mm base to a 10.95mm shoulder, the M-Sch case shares the same base, but case taper is to a 11.57mm shoulder. So it is a much straighter, somewhat "improved" case. Even cases formed from 9.3x62 brass fireform a bit to a more pronounced shoulder.
Quote:

is indeed an update from the original 2150 fps/655 m/sec and this with a carbine length barrel.
do you know if its under maximum pressure?



I don't know and I could not care less! The 9.5x57 M-Sch is not even listed in the proof tables available to me. The fired cases show not the slightest signs of high pressure, primers not even flattened. Further, you have to know how the prescribed Maximum pressures were established:
Up to 1939 the gunmaker submitting a gun for proof could specify for which factory load the rifle was to be proofed. F.I. a rifle in 8x60 could be proofed either for the "Normal" loads with a service pressure up to 3100 at, or for the "Magnum" loads, service pressure up to 3500at. See the 1940 RWS and the 1934 DWM handbooks. Only the 1940 proof-law prescribed that each rifle was to be proofed for the highest service pressure load the German ammunition companies offered at that time for a gun so chambered. At the same time the pressure of the highest-intensity German factory load was prescribed as the maximum service load for that cartridge. No ammo factory was allowed to load higher-pressure loads for a given cartridge in the future.
When Steyr introduced the 9.5x57 M-Sch in 1910, the cartridge was undoubtedly loaded to the highest pressure Steyr saw fit for the action. Austro-Hungary at that time had a state powder monopoly, so only one smokeless rifle powder named "Pulver III" was available and consequently used in all Mannlicher and Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges. All pre-WW1 rifle powders were fast-burning by today's standards, but the Austrian one was even then infamous for erratic performance. So 270gr at 2100fps was the best the Austrians could achieve with their domestic powder. "In the interest of sighting" the German companies stuck to the same ballistics, but with the better German powders of the interwar years namely 3.25g = 50gr Rottweil R5, achieved these ballistics at only 2700at. The German companies improved the ballistics of some loads of the popular 6.5x54 M-Sch during the 1920s-30s, some loads upped to 3200at, but were not interested doing so with the less popular other M-Sch chamberings. So 2700 at was established as the Max service pressure for the 9.5x57, and 3200at for the 6.5x54 in 1940.
As all Mannlicher-Schoenauer actions, from the M1900 to the last so-called "Magnum" actions, share the same bolt and receiver dimensions, and there is no earthly reason to think that Steyr used different steels for forging the M1924-25 "High Velocity" 8x60, 7x64, 30-06, 9.3x62, 10.75x68 actions and the M1910 actions of the late 1920s, I can not imagine any reason for a difference in rifle strength.


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bonanza
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173209 - 16/12/10 11:04 AM

man, how do you see through the scope with all that drop in the stock?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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9.3x57
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173210 - 16/12/10 11:15 AM

Quote:

the M-Sch case shares the same base, but case taper is to a 11.57mm shoulder. So it is a much straighter, somewhat "improved" case.




Whole post; Sehr interessant.

Regarding the above, I'm not sure what that does to internal capacity but it must increase the 9.5 by a bit but regardless, 270/2300 is a good powerful load, and with my 9.3x62 easily running 2300 with 285 grain bullet from a 19 inch barrel with very low pressure, seems well within the capabilities of the 9.5 cartridge with its greater expansion ratio. For that matter, as Daryl indicated, likely within safe pressures, depending on powder, with the 9.3x57 also.

And a hearty Waidmannsheil.

kudae, how big is the Revier in which this hunt is taking place?

Curious also how many hectares you manage, and if it is a team of Försters that works that ground or if it is just you? Also, are you a Staat employee? Here, we have both state {Idaho Department of Lands} and private timber ground, and of course Federal US Forest Service {"Forest Circus"} ground. Upon the latter, effectively no commercial logging is taking place. It is a laughing stock, and hundreds of thousands of hectares, in fact, 40%+ or so of Idaho, sit idle, its timber effectively worthless, management having been stopped by environmentalists and their freak bedfellows in the government...

Out my front door you can walk 185 miles without running into a single human-built structure, 185 miles to the next town going east. That is big forest, and it of course keeps going, a patchwork of different owners; private, state and Federal.

As for loud. Loud? A 9.3x57 sounds like a popgun, a "Crack" is all that is heard, and likely the 9.5x57, too. The 9.3x62 in a carbine is barely loud enough to wake a sleeping Eichhörnchen.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Ben
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #173214 - 16/12/10 12:53 PM

Great boar, Sir! Well-done!

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Taylor416
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Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: Ben]
      #173238 - 16/12/10 11:37 PM

Kuduae,
beautiful little rifle, great calibre!

cheers

--------------------
Love to hunt!


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: bonanza]
      #173240 - 17/12/10 01:43 AM

Quote:

man, how do you see through the scope with all that drop in the stock?



I don't know how, but apparently I can do. I never repair anything that works!


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DarylS
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: kuduae]
      #173249 - 17/12/10 04:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

man, how do you see through the scope with all that drop in the stock?



I don't know how, but apparently I can do. I never repair anything that works!




Aiming is instantanious - heads-up aiming. You stand erect, look at the animal, shoulder the rifle and the crosshairs are on it. You do not mount the gun and scrunch your face down hard into the comb to look through the scope - this is the modern US method - low mounted scopes, many designs with smack you in the face combs with heavy recoilers - instead of relaxed, erect and fast shooting, they promote deliberate aiming.

Most Euro shooting is fast - at driven game. I prefer the Euro stocks and high scopes - as on my 9.3x57. It snaps to my shoulder and the cross hairs are on-target right where I was looking. Factory 1929 Husky M46.

This is the Euro & Oplympic style of shooting offhand. The gun is brought to the face, not the reverse.

The rifle is for the most part, an iron sighted rifle that has a scope attached. The both work perfectly - abeint have slightly different 'stances', but with amazing stock design & doesn't take long to learn- or to switch back and forth - both are quite open postions in comparrison.

My 'take' on the aiming differeces, is that most US shooters us a rest whenever possible. Low mounted, high combed rifles are set up that way for very deliberate shooting - scrunched down hard into the stock, immovable, precision shooting form a rest- exactly what I use for shooting gophers at long range- but not best for shooting moose running through the trees.

In Europe, with more offhand and 'fast' shooting at driven game - game, a more open style is preferable - nay - manditory - fast aquisition of game and sights aligning instantly on the game upon shouldering the rifle - THAT's a hunting rifle.

The Engish Sporting Rifle epitomized this very aiming aspect - the rifles fitting and coming to the shoulder like a fine bird gun- alrady on target. This trait was developed over many years, starting in the late 1700's, culminating to peak in the mid 1800's, then holding this style of 'fit' on into the 1900's.

Most Euro rifles made today, are a combination- neither fish nor fowl.

I might be full of BS - some think so - HA! - but that's the way I see it. I like it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (17/12/10 04:55 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: classic case of overkill... [Re: DarylS]
      #173254 - 17/12/10 05:15 AM

Quote:

My 'take' on the aiming differeces, is that most US shooters us a rest whenever possible.




You are right for the most part. Some ranges require guns to be benched-only. This is said to be a safety feature, but for an urbanite who has no-where to shoot but a restrictive range, learning to actually shoot a rifle becomes difficult indeed. Plus, many hunt from box blinds and other rested postions and don't have much need to learn to shoot a rifle without bags or benches.

I also like the heads-up stance tho most of my rifles are typically American-stocked; Rugers.

My AV/AIII SAKO .375 has a high cheekpiece and the EAW mounts put the scope "higher than it needs to be" according to some experts... Advantage! The gun is brought to the face.

Ditto a few others, Mausers.

Some folks are just plain used-to scrunching the face down and if it works, great.

For those who spend most of their time at the range shooting from the bags, that is no disadvantage. But some rifles are just plain poorly-stocked for field shooting as a result.

Maybe related? I also do not like a full cheek weld and prefer my chin-side to be the only part of my face against the stock. I have stickem-out cheekbones and many stocks bite me as they rise in recoil. Rugers do not, fortunately.

If a guy has some extra-high mounts laying around, a simple swap of the scope might turn out to be a worthwhile experiment. See how it feels. You might like it.

We spend very little ammunition from shooting on the bench. I never allowed my kids to become wedded to it and now they actually know how to shoot. Ditto my wife who shoots once a year as a stunt, just to make everybody feel bad! With my old 6.5x55, it's 2 to three inch 5-shot groups from sitting down, elbows on knees at 114 yards. Her routine, and d___ frustrating to the bench junkies who watch her.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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