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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Peconga
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Reged: 26/06/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Arizona USA
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162169 - 16/06/10 01:45 PM

More comments:

1) Good catch by user kuduae regarding the tang safety; I assumed it was a folding tang peep sight, which was a factory option. This is the first tang safety I've seen on a pre-WW2 M-S rifle.

2) Like CptCurl, I am also impressed by the repair work on the "Duffle Cut" on the forend. Presumably the checkering was re-cut after the repair to match the rest of the pattern. I looked at the rifle long and hard before concluding that it was not a factory cut, primarily because of the location and the black spacer, and also because there would be no good reason to have a two-piece stock on a non-takedown rifle.

Cheers,
Peconga in Boise, Idaho USA

--------------------
Peconga in Arizona USA

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162210 - 17/06/10 11:18 AM

Well I suppose I'm deranged, but just within the last hour I made a deal to buy the 1903 that was offered by William Larkin Moore & Sons.

This is way out of my normal path.









Quote:

MANNLICHER-SCHOENAUER, Bolt Action, Model 1903 Fullstock rifle, 6.5x54MS, 22, DST,
Round Knob Semi-PG, Steel trap butt, Swing away receiver sight, Cleaning rod in butt,
All original and un-molested, One of the nicest m1903's we have ever seen, ID# 2704,
Near PERFECT Condition $?,???.??






I have a real gun problem. Do you think I should jump off a bridge? Please pray for me.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162213 - 17/06/10 11:31 AM

Quote:

Well I suppose I'm deranged, but just within the last hour I made a deal to buy the 1903 that was offered by William Larkin Moore & Sons.

This is way out of my normal path.









Quote:

MANNLICHER-SCHOENAUER, Bolt Action, Model 1903 Fullstock rifle, 6.5x54MS, 22, DST,
Round Knob Semi-PG, Steel trap butt, Swing away receiver sight, Cleaning rod in butt,
All original and un-molested, One of the nicest m1903's we have ever seen, ID# 2704,
Near PERFECT Condition $?,???.??






I have a real gun problem. Do you think I should jump off a bridge? Please pray for me.

Curl

You are deranged. Fortunately, there is a treatment. You must package the offending rifle in a sturdy, well padded box, and send it to me. Only then can you be truly cured. Do this without fail if you want to be free of this affliction.

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #162216 - 17/06/10 01:05 PM

Cpt--

Wow, I didn't know I was playing the role of the serpent on that one--looks like you've fallen right into original sin, and a tip of the hat to you for it. In all honesty, you could look for a lifetime and not find another 1903 in that condition. I'm sure it's a pretty early gun--WWI-era or older--so the bore may or may not conform to modern 6.5 dimensions. If it does turn out to be oversized, rest assured there ways around it.

If you haven't handled a pre-war MS before, brace yourself--this gun is about to become the standard by which every other bolt gun is compared, and a lot of other things in life as well...

Few will make grade.

My Sympathies in advance,
Malcolm

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kamilaroi
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162223 - 17/06/10 02:57 PM

^ Too true!!

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Phillip
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Loc: North Carolina
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: kamilaroi]
      #162263 - 18/06/10 10:04 AM

NICE>>!!!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162365 - 19/06/10 09:04 PM

Quote:

I'm sure it's a pretty early gun--WWI-era or older--so the bore may or may not conform to modern 6.5 dimensions. If it does turn out to be oversized, rest assured there ways around it.



Malco, I have read Ken Waters' writeup in Pet Loads in which he discusses this issue. He found that a pre-war M1903 Carbine was oversize (0.2665") and also a late edition MCA (0.2660"). He had Barnes make a run of 150 grain bullets in 0.266" diameter.

What solutions have you or others pursued?

I'm sure when I get this rifle the first task will be to slug the bore. I'll report in with a measurement. Hopefully it will be 0.264". I want to load the Hornady 160 RN to duplicate the original classic load for this cartridge.

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162437 - 20/06/10 08:07 PM

Even if the long 160gr Hornady RN is slightly undersize by modern standards, it may still shoot decently, as the original bullets also relied on "slugging up" to fill the rifling. Of course, slugging up will not work with lighter, pointed bullets, especially boattails being hopeless.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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malco
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Loc: montana, usa
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #162450 - 21/06/10 12:55 AM

My experience is similar to kuduae's--the groove in my rifle measures .268, the land .255, but both the .264 Hornady RN and factory 159 gr. RWS T-Mantels shoot fine. I also get decent results with the Hornady 140 SP, although they don't feed as well. I'd like to try the 155 gr. Lapua but haven't gotten around to it.
I know some people use the Hornady Carcano RN (.268 diameter) if they can't get the .264 to work, but I suspect that mainly happens in guns with pretty weak bores, which yours almost certainly doesn't have. I'd definitely try the standard Hornady RN right off the bat, see what happens, and go from there.

Good luck, and keep the info coming!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162480 - 21/06/10 12:17 PM

Thanks guys.

I should have my rifle in a week or so. I'll get dies, brass, bullets, etc. and get back to you.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162577 - 23/06/10 12:58 AM

Quote:

Cpt--

Wow, I didn't know I was playing the role of the serpent on that one--



Malco,

Thanks for your sympathies and kind words. Let me ease your conscience. I had spotted that rifle on the WLM website as soon as it was posted. In fact, I had talked to Dan Moore about it before you mentioned it in this thread. I was put off by the price and decided to pass.

I've done business with the Moores since 1996 and always find them to be top-notch. I recommend them to anybody.

As a matter of history, Moores had a dandy 1903 Carbine back in April 2008 listed for $2,300. It appeared little used but not quite as "cherry mint" as the current rifle. I came within a hair's breadth of buying it and regretted not doing so. I've been watching since that one passed.

Dan called me last week as a followup on the current rifle. I had made an offer on it during our initial conversation 7 weeks ago. He reported that the owner had decided to sell for what I had offered, and he wanted to know if my offer was still good. It was.

So don't feel you are a serpent. I'm a willful sinner without the encouragement. Nevertheless, it's nice to have lots of encouragement for this type of sinning. I'm probably still paying too much for the rifle!

Also, this isn't my first foray into the realm of Mannlicher Schoenauers. I have a cherry mint MCA Carbine in .358 Win topped with a Kahles 4x scope in claw mounts.

The rifle from Moores should be here any day. I'll give a report then. Thanks to everybody for the kind words and advice.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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malco
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Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162600 - 23/06/10 12:00 PM

Absolutely my pleasure, Curl--I know you're gonna love this gun, and I'm glad I'm not the only one hell-bent on Perdition! Truthfully, there are far worse addictions--keep us posted!
Malcolm

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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
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Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162900 - 28/06/10 10:19 AM

the stock was made that way because a full lenght peice of wood for that gun was not available...paul

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malco
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: pjaln]
      #162909 - 28/06/10 01:50 PM

Paul--
Have you seen others with similar treatment? I've only seen photos of two other post-annexation guns, and they had typical one-piece stocks. Still, this gun has different features than any other pre-war gun I've seen, such as the hooked pistol grip, tang safety and shadow-line cheekpiece. Maybe it's a really late pre-war, with atypical styling and (odd as it seems) two-piece stock? If you have some historical insight into this, or have seen another rifle with similar construction, please share!
Best,
Malcolm

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pjaln
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162968 - 29/06/10 05:52 AM

malco,,there are actually a few guns out there with this treatment and it was common on gibbs rifles who i just recently had a lenghty discussion with about just this same thing, if you could email me i will forward you the emails from i.m. crudgingtons of england they have probably seen more mannlichers than we have here ...paul

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: pjaln]
      #163019 - 29/06/10 11:36 PM

Here is one of those G.Gibbs Mannlicher-Schoenauers, put together by them in 1905. I always thought that these rifles left the Gibbs shop as takedowns. Gibbs used the front action screw to lock in the full-thread barrel. All Gibbs rifles I have seen have a foreend cut at right angles.




I do not believe the slanted cut on the WW2-period M-S could serve the same purpose.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (30/06/10 09:29 PM)

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pjaln
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #163025 - 30/06/10 12:52 AM

i had a big disscussion with huvius about this ,,crudgingtons in bath,england has all the info on this subject...and kinda settled the argument ,,"sort of speak"....paul

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: pjaln]
      #163146 - 01/07/10 08:09 AM

My 1903 arrived today from W. L. Moore & Co.

I think I have screwed myself. The damn thing is so brand-new, cherry mint I'm going to feel uncomfortable shooting it. Damn!

It's a 1908 gun. Possibly unfired.



More later.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Rule303
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #163154 - 01/07/10 11:25 AM

CptCurl that is looking sweet.

Now as I am an upstanding sort of bloke I'll ease your pain. Send it to me and I'll give it a good home. hehe

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tinker
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Rule303]
      #163167 - 01/07/10 02:51 PM

Curl-



It's about time you got a nice little 6.5mm rifle.
On the condition of your new piece -- you think this means you're screwed?
C'mon man, based on the condition of most of your other guns and rifles, it appears you've been banging yourself for quite some time now.
It's amazing you've parted off enough time over the years for your spouse to have sired your children!!







On bore dimensions and the hornady 160
My WJ Jeffery has a rough, oversize bore, and it runs the 160grRNSN quite nicely.
It doesn't like the slightly bigger diameter bullet, which would appear (on paper) to otherwise be the right choice.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #163193 - 02/07/10 02:59 AM

Curl,

Well done.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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malco
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: NitroX]
      #163583 - 07/07/10 01:33 PM

Howdy Captain--
Just checking in to see if you've tracked down components/dies yet. I managed to buy large rifle primers off the shelf in a gun shop today for the first time in about a year, so things are looking up--I'll be loading for my 1903 over the weekend. You may be aware of this already, but if you do start off with the Hornady RN, ignore the cannelure and seat the bullet to a COL of around 3.05"--the rotary mag generally requires a long cartridge to feed properly. That's the first issue I ran into when I started loading for this chambering, and thought I'd pass it on--

Best of luck--
Malcolm

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #163614 - 07/07/10 09:19 PM

Malcolm,

Thanks for the COL advice, which I'll heed.

I ordered dies, shellholder, 100 Norma brass, trimmer pilot, 100 Hornady 160 grain RN, and 100 Lapua Mega 155 grain RN bullets last week. The delivery is scheduled for today. All from Graf & Sons. Already have powder and primers.

What powder do you recommend?

Won't be long! I'll report back.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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malco
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #164226 - 15/07/10 10:16 PM

Hi Curl--
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. Regarding powder, I'd probably start with the data in the Hornady manual, and try to get your velocity up above 2,000 fps for starters, and more like 2,200 ideally, especially if you want to kill deer with it. In my experience, the H4895 data for the 160RN did not produce adequate velocity for a hunting bullet, and it wasn't particularly accurate, either, although the same powder with Hornady's 140 SP did produce good results in my rifle both on paper and on game--I had a lightning-fast, one-shot kill on a prongbuck at 160 yards with this combo last year.

I'm mostly using Norma N204 powder because I have a bunch of it, in a recipe acquired from a friend who in turn passed it along from a '60s-vintage Norma factory loading manual. It seems to work great with the 160RN, and I can get 10-plus firings out of a case even with a pretty hot load. On the other hand, Tatume, who knows a lot more than I do, has suggested that N204 might be too slow a powder for optimal performance.

Given that your gun is as old as it is, and as pristine as it is, I'd definitely start off on the cautious side. My rifle is twenty years newer, and I'd assume that the metallurgy improved over the decades although I don't know that for sure.

A few other things I've encountered: my Reddington dies produce excessive headspace when set to full-length resize in a conventional manner, yet my rifle will not feed a neck-sized-only cartridge through the rotary mag. I wound up smoking the neck of a cartridge and turning down the FL die just to the junction of the neck and shoulder, and this solved the feeding problem while avoiding the headspace issue. I have neck-sized-only for a friend's 1903, and his works fine with such.

I've found that tightening the action screws past index produces better accuracy. Also, I tapped out the metal sleeve that lines the hole for the tang screw in the stock, shaved it back slightly with a Dremel tool and replaced it, which resulted in a tighter action-to-stock fit and better accuracy.

Best of luck, and I'll look forward to hearing more as you work with your new beauty--
Malcolm

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #164520 - 19/07/10 12:54 PM

Malcolm,

Thanks for the kind advice. I'm slow on the project. The dies, brass, and bullets all came in and are sitting on my desk unused so far. I've been tinkering with a nice Henry .450 BPE that came to my home about the same time.

I'm on vacation this week, so no progress will happen in that period. I think when I get back I'll give it a go.

I wondered about tightening the action screws. That is normal practice in any other bolt gun, but I didn't know about the M-S. Am I correct that this action relies on the rear of the magazine housing as a "recoil lug"? I don't really see anything else to do the job.

Again thanks for the advice. I'll give a report. I'm still a bit timid of popping the cherry on this minty 102 year old rifle.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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