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Homer
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Why is an SMLE so Fast
      #293511 - 09/01/17 07:18 AM

G'Day Fella's,

FYI, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-EdQuAxAII

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Postman
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Homer]
      #293513 - 09/01/17 07:55 AM

Gives me newfound respect for my old surplus MK 4 no. 1

Firing with the middle finger? Give 'em the finger now has new meaning! But seriously, who fires a rifle with a finger other than the index finger?


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DarylS
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Postman]
      #293517 - 09/01/17 08:31 AM

This was standard training for British and Canadian soldiers in both wars - with these rifles.

The bolt held between forefinger and thumb, with the Saturday night finger operating the trigger.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: DarylS]
      #293524 - 09/01/17 11:36 AM

Quote:

This was standard training for British and Canadian soldiers in both wars - with these rifles.

The bolt held between forefinger and thumb, with the Saturday night finger operating the trigger.




That is an interesting trivia tidbit. I did not know that.


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Roy
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Postman]
      #293525 - 09/01/17 12:06 PM

Wasn't this called the 'mad minuet' back in the day?

Cheerio,

Roy

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Postman]
      #293529 - 09/01/17 12:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This was standard training for British and Canadian soldiers in both wars - with these rifles.

The bolt held between forefinger and thumb, with the Saturday night finger operating the trigger.




That is an interesting trivia tidbit. I did not know that.




Not accurate shooting. For defence against an assault at closer quarters. Similar to using an semi auto.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Wayne59
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: NitroX]
      #293531 - 09/01/17 12:59 PM

Learn something new every day.

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Rule303
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Roy]
      #293538 - 09/01/17 03:18 PM

Quote:

Wasn't this called the 'mad minuet' back in the day?

Cheerio,

Roy




Not that I am aware of. The mad minute was more a US thing where they did a clearing patrol by firing with every thing they had as fast as they could for a minute. Hoping to clear any enemy from in front of their pits. The British Commonwealth Forces used this method to fend off mass frontal assaults. Firing went on for as long as it was needed. A minute was the benchmark for judging the rate of fire, that is where you might be confusing a mad minute. The recorded record as far as I am aware is 60 rounds on target at 100 yards in one minute, held by a British Warrant officer. How ever there are reported case from the Gallipoli Peninsular of higher rates of fire. Of course the targets were closer and getting closer so plenty of practice and adrenaline may of helped.

I know the ANZAC's at Gallipoli used this method to good effect. I believe all Commonwealth troops were trained in this method of firing the SMLE. Probably the reason the Germans, after their first serious contact with the Tommy's, reported that all the English were using machine guns.

Edited by Rule303 (09/01/17 03:20 PM)


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Roy
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Rule303]
      #293539 - 09/01/17 03:42 PM

The Mad Minute - wikipidia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

Edited by Roy (09/01/17 03:43 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Roy]
      #293543 - 09/01/17 06:07 PM

Quote:

The Mad Minute - wikipidia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute




Thanks. I only knew of the US clearing patrol mad minute.

As you can see the Range competition called the mad minute is not the fast firing practice used against frontal assaults.


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DarylS
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Rule303]
      #293545 - 09/01/17 06:14 PM

There ya go- i do recall reading the Germans in the trenches thought they were facing a LOT of machine guns, when in fact, they were only riflemen. However, with a hundred or more men firing as fast as they could work the bolt of their Enfields, there were a lot of bullets in the air at once.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: DarylS]
      #293557 - 09/01/17 09:46 PM

This is what I would refer to as "spray and pray". The shots may be on target for a practised warrant officer, but how big is the target? Were all shots in the 10x ring? If the target is small and down range at 100 or even 50 yards, I seriously doubt it. All bolt rifles require a removal of the trigger (index) finger and shooting hand grip from the rifle in order to work the bolt which to some degree impairs follow up shot speed when looking for reasonably accurate shooting as in a hunting situation.

In any event, in a hunting scenario, it is of significance if one does not have to break one's cheek weld in order to avoid a bolt smack in the face when working the bolt. This is a huge beef I have with the allegedly ultra fast Blaser R93 and R8. Yes they are fast to operate, but they will smash me in the face every time if I don't move my head away from the stock when working the straight pull action. Having to reestablish a cheek weld and reacquire the sights does not make for fast shooting. In this regard, the rude and crude Remington 760 / 7600 pump action rifle has the Blaser soundly beat.

Edited by Postman (09/01/17 09:54 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Postman]
      #293563 - 10/01/17 04:26 AM

Same with the Winchester M88 lever and M100 auto.

My Mossberg 835 with the 24" rifled tube is quite fast, shoots really well with 2 3/4" slugs and the high speed 3" commercial WW & holds a bunch of them.

The pump gun is very fast for backups - however, when shooting 1 1/4opunce slugs, there should be no need.

Might try it out on spring bear, this year.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: DarylS]
      #293571 - 10/01/17 09:35 AM

"with the Saturday night finger operating the trigger."

That be the diddling finger lol.

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Rule303
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Postman]
      #293576 - 10/01/17 10:08 AM

Quote:

This is what I would refer to as "spray and pray". The shots may be on target for a practised warrant officer, but how big is the target? Were all shots in the 10x ring? If the target is small and down range at 100 or even 50 yards, I seriously doubt it. All bolt rifles require a removal of the trigger (index) finger and shooting hand grip from the rifle in order to work the bolt which to some degree impairs follow up shot speed when looking for reasonably accurate shooting as in a hunting situation.

In any event, in a hunting scenario, it is of significance if one does not have to break one's cheek weld in order to avoid a bolt smack in the face when working the bolt. This is a huge beef I have with the allegedly ultra fast Blaser R93 and R8. Yes they are fast to operate, but they will smash me in the face every time if I don't move my head away from the stock when working the straight pull action. Having to reestablish a cheek weld and reacquire the sights does not make for fast shooting. In this regard, the rude and crude Remington 760 / 7600 pump action rifle has the Blaser soundly beat.




to my knowledge the target was a figure 11, a human size & shaped target. Shots on count. Lets be clear this method was used for repelling massed frontal assaults not for 10x ring or hunting accuracy. It is not for accuracy other than hitting a human coming at you en mass and I would assume at somewhat less than 100yards. A body hit is all they were after. Mostly done from the standing or kneeling position. Hold the rifle into your shoulder with the left hand work bolt with right hand, charger clip load with right hand, you would be looking through or over the sights and not reacquiring them after each shot.


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DarylS
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Rule303]
      #293577 - 10/01/17 10:50 AM

Exactly - both of you - LOL!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lonewulf
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Rule303]
      #293591 - 10/01/17 02:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wasn't this called the 'mad minuet' back in the day?

Cheerio,

Roy




Not that I am aware of. The mad minute was more a US thing where they did a clearing patrol by firing with every thing they had as fast as they could for a minute. Hoping to clear any enemy from in front of their pits. The British Commonwealth Forces used this method to fend off mass frontal assaults. Firing went on for as long as it was needed. A minute was the benchmark for judging the rate of fire, that is where you might be confusing a mad minute. The recorded record as far as I am aware is 60 rounds on target at 100 yards in one minute, held by a British Warrant officer. How ever there are reported case from the Gallipoli Peninsular of higher rates of fire. Of course the targets were closer and getting closer so plenty of practice and adrenaline may of helped.

I know the ANZAC's at Gallipoli used this method to good effect. I believe all Commonwealth troops were trained in this method of firing the SMLE. Probably the reason the Germans, after their first serious contact with the Tommy's, reported that all the English were using machine guns.





With all due respect, am I seriously to believe that someone was actually counting, with a stopwatch during an action on the Gallipoli Peninsula? Seriously, people were living cheek by jowl with blackened, bloated fly-blown corpses, and bits of fly-blown corpses, day-after-day with all the attendant stench and disease that accompany such conditions yet someone had the presence of mind to conduct a 'mad minute' speed test. Really? Are we being serious about this?


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Rule303
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: lonewulf]
      #293594 - 10/01/17 04:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wasn't this called the 'mad minuet' back in the day?

Cheerio,

Roy




Not that I am aware of. The mad minute was more a US thing where they did a clearing patrol by firing with every thing they had as fast as they could for a minute. Hoping to clear any enemy from in front of their pits. The British Commonwealth Forces used this method to fend off mass frontal assaults. Firing went on for as long as it was needed. A minute was the benchmark for judging the rate of fire, that is where you might be confusing a mad minute. The recorded record as far as I am aware is 60 rounds on target at 100 yards in one minute, held by a British Warrant officer. How ever there are reported case from the Gallipoli Peninsular of higher rates of fire. Of course the targets were closer and getting closer so plenty of practice and adrenaline may of helped.

I know the ANZAC's at Gallipoli used this method to good effect. I believe all Commonwealth troops were trained in this method of firing the SMLE. Probably the reason the Germans, after their first serious contact with the Tommy's, reported that all the English were using machine guns.





With all due respect, am I seriously to believe that someone was actually counting, with a stopwatch during an action on the Gallipoli Peninsula? Seriously, people were living cheek by jowl with blackened, bloated fly-blown corpses, and bits of fly-blown corpses, day-after-day with all the attendant stench and disease that accompany such conditions yet someone had the presence of mind to conduct a 'mad minute' speed test. Really? Are we being serious about this?




Fair dinkum are you serious? I do not know how they reached the conclusions as reported. As I said, it was reported. Maybe some knew how many rounds they fired and roughly how long it took, maybe, as the troops liked sport, they had a contest-not during battle- to see how many rounds they could get off in a given time. If they did this you can bet there would of been a few bets laid. Could of been a few of the lads waging against each other on how many rounds they could get off during an attack. All speculation, but some how they came up with these figures.

I would also speculate that the number of rounds fired in what ever time, could have been extrapolated up or down, to obtain the rate of fire per minute.


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ducmarc
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: Rule303]
      #293671 - 12/01/17 11:35 AM

U guys are all British u bet they counted.as in any high stress situation men attach different ways of coping. Dark humor is one.im sure there was betting on everything....hey I was majoring in psychology until girls got in the way.

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lonewulf
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: ducmarc]
      #293682 - 12/01/17 01:10 PM

Quote:

U guys are all British u bet they counted.as in any high stress situation men attach different ways of coping. Dark humor is one.im sure there was betting on everything....hey I was majoring in psychology until girls got in the way.




There was nowhere on the Gallipoli Peninsula, held by British forces in 1915, that wasn't being shelled or otherwise swept by machine gun fire. There were no safe areas, (or, 'safe spaces' as the Uni kids would call them now days) just places that occasionally weren't under direct bombardment.

If you exposed even a portion of your head in a forward area, in all probability, someone would put a bullet through it.

The front line was a place where the hundreds of bloated putrefying corpses were just left to rot into the ground, that is, when they weren't being disinterred or blown apart by the unending shell-fire. The flies that fed on these corpses moved in great clouds and were so thick at times that the sound of their buzzing made conversation difficult. Any notion of burying the dead was just laughable because it invited certain death. In the event of an attack, everyone who could fight (that is, who wasn't gravely wounded or afflicted by disease) was expected to pitch in until death or wounding put them out of action. To put yourself into an exposed position where you could accurately shoot and reload your SMLE sufficient to make a stopwatch 'mad minute' test any sort of meaningful exercise would have invited almost certain if not instantaneous death. Now, in these circumstances you may well have considered an impromptu mad minute test a bit of harmless high jinks but I suspect the guys who were actually out there, just trying to get through this nightmare, would have suggested somewhere unpleasant where you could respectfully, shove it.

Edited by lonewulf (12/01/17 01:12 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: lonewulf]
      #293693 - 12/01/17 05:55 PM

Opinion is fine. But history does record it.

We all know watches were common in trench warfare to effect the timing of artillery barages, time to make infantry attacks etc.

I do doubt someone was actually timing anything on a stopwatch or watch during the defence of a massed infantry attack however. But a rough timing, and counting how many cartridges were expended is quite possible. And soldiers do have lots of boring "down time" in between the moments of action.

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lonewulf
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: NitroX]
      #293739 - 13/01/17 08:39 AM

Okay I'll have one more crack at this before I reluctantly cut the whole damn thing loose and watch it drift away.

If you have a look at the history (something I am want to do), the whole "mad minute" thing appears to be little more than an amalgam of fact and fiction that, over time, has morphed into a legend.

Essentially two roughly parallel strands have been merged to fabricate the legend. On the one hand we have pre-WW 1 British Army rifle training that incorporated what was known at the time (by the troops) as a 'mad minute' proficiency test. This required individual riflemen to shoot X number of aimed rounds in the space of one minute. However, success with the test wasn't judged on the number of recorded shots. To pass the proficiency test, those shots actually had to strike the designated target. So, in short what we have here is a rifle range test that cannot be duplicated during an attack on an actual battlefield. It can't be duplicated because, obviously enough, in such circumstances you can't actually verify the accuracy of the shooting. That's the first problem.

Secondly, at the Battle of Mons, in 1914, the Germans were said to have been stopped in their tracks by rifle fire from the BEF so rapid and withering in nature that the Germans believed it to be machine gun fire. This series of infantry actions has also come to be commonly referred to as "mad minute" rifle fire. Unfortunately, this story also has its problems. Firstly, the BEF didn't stop the Germans at Mons and secondly, German records of the action make no specific reference to withering British machine gun fire. The German reports make a clear distinction between rifle and machine gun fire during the battle. What is more, German casualty figures for the battle do not support the British contention that the Germans came on as a grey horde only to be shot down in droves by highly proficient British rifle fire. That's the second problem. The Battle of Mons, as it came to be portrayed in the British/commonwealth press, was largely a fiction.

So, to conclude, we have two major problems with the whole mad minute firing thing. To conduct a "mad minute" rifle fire test you need to be able to verify the accuracy of the shooting and to do that you need marked targets. What exactly some twat with a stopwatch would be measuring in a trench line on Gallipoli as the troops blazed away at the Turks would be anyone's guess. And what was this bloke to do if the guy he was timing got shot? Would he stop the test and move to the next guy down the line and start the test all over again? This is of course complete nonsense. And finally, the whole premise on which mad minute rifle fire is supposed to have taken place, the British action against the Germans at the Battle of Mons is, in all probability, largely propaganda.

Edited by lonewulf (13/01/17 08:43 AM)


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ducmarc
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: lonewulf]
      #293757 - 13/01/17 01:17 PM

If I get time this weekend ill take out my lee speed,pattern 14,springfield and a mauser and see how fast I can empty the mags at the 100yrd steel plates.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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VonGruff
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: ducmarc]
      #293761 - 13/01/17 04:17 PM


The No 1, Mk III* Short, Magazine, Lee Enfield (SMLE): Mad Minute II

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lee+...amp;FORM=VRDGAR

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Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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Claydog
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Re: Why is an SMLE so Fast [Re: VonGruff]
      #293764 - 13/01/17 05:35 PM

That looked a pretty sweet effort to me.

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