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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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old_LEESPEED
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Reged: 09/12/10
Posts: 20
Loc: SINBIN
Help with early Lee Speed Patent.
      #173322 - 18/12/10 09:59 AM

Hi, I need some advice on a Lee Speed Patent.

Can any of you help me determine exactly what it is and how much it may be worth?

The mag cut off is missing and the original front sights have been changed at some point.
I would like to find these two parts if poss.

Serial number is 3 digits all over the gun.
Theres a letter and two numbers under the bolt head on the receiver.


Thanks in advance for any help you may bring.


edit. my pictures wont show. Ill try later.

Edited by old_LEESPEED (18/12/10 10:01 AM)

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tinker
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173343 - 18/12/10 02:06 PM

First off, Welcome to NitroExpress!!


Get those photos up for us to see, remember that they need to be on a photo hosting server and that you don't up-load images from your computer directly to this website.

I look forward to seeing your rifle!
What is the caliber?






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: tinker]
      #173351 - 18/12/10 03:52 PM

Sorry about that, ok here are some pictures.
edit-tried to resize these spiffy and add a few more.


















Says "G26"











Found an old .303 shell wrapped in a receipt from 1955 in the but stock.

The receipt from Capitol Motors GM in Vernon BC dated Jan 9th 1955.

There was also some strike anywhere matches wrapped in an old advertisment.

There was a string with a brass cylinder at the end, I would assume a cleaning device.

A photo I found on the net, this rifle resembles the bottom one.


Let me know if you need other photos. Thanks as always.

Edited by CptCurl (21/12/10 12:05 AM)

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: tinker]
      #173352 - 18/12/10 04:06 PM

Hi and thank you. Its .303 british. Has a brass butt plate a brass through pin above the trigger and what looks like a brass or bronze front sight leafe.

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Huvius
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173372 - 19/12/10 03:26 AM

Looks like it is barreled by Westley Richards.
Is there a name of any retailer on the barrel?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: Huvius]
      #173375 - 19/12/10 04:09 AM

Hi, thanks for replying, no there is no names on the barrel, what makes you think its a Westley Richards?

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173378 - 19/12/10 04:59 AM

Hi! Welcome to Nitro Express!

Looks like it might have a BSA piled arms trademark on the top of the barrel knox form. Does it? Maybe this is what Huvius is talking about...it could be mistaken for the Westley Richards triangle.
What is the barrel length?
What does the front sight look like?
Is there a "V" in a circle anywhere on the barrel?
Is there anything stamped on the top-right-rear part of the action, where the bolt slides in?
What are the numbers on the bolt? Do they match the numbers on the action or barrel?

From the pics, it looks like a military pattern, commercial Lee Enfield (not sure exactly which model until we get more data), made by Birmingham Small Arms Company sometime between 1897 and 1905, and then later sporterized by its owner. With more info, we'll find the answers to your questions and narrow down the date range.

If you would be willing to fill out my Lee Speed owner's survey, I will send you a PM. Every bit of data I can gather puts me a step closer to working out a reliable method of dating these commercial rifles.

Thanks!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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rgg_7
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: jc5]
      #173383 - 19/12/10 05:42 AM

A little more info is required to confirm it's a commerical BSA action. A picture of the left side of the action is need as well as the top of the receiver/barrel. How long is the barrel?

I believe you have a commerical Lee Speed by BSA from the butt socket markings on the right side as well as the 3 crossed rifles on the barrel knox. The "F.C." stamp on the barrel is one I have not seen before. The barrel is stamped "nitro proved" (?) although faint which indicates prewar1.

Lots of modifications....front site change that you mentioned and I see a Winchester elavator sight added...dovetail most likely cut in barrel for this...stock looks to have been replaced with a military one. These parts are tough to find and pricey....I just leave the rifle and enjoy shooting it if the headspace and bore are good.

Ron

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Huvius
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: jc5]
      #173384 - 19/12/10 05:48 AM

Quote:

Hi! Welcome to Nitro Express!

Looks like it might have a BSA piled arms trademark on the top of the barrel knox form. Does it? Maybe this is what Huvius is talking about...it could be mistaken for the Westley Richards triangle.



Yes, that is what I was referring to. Didn't think of the stacked rifles BSA insignia.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: rgg_7]
      #173389 - 19/12/10 07:30 AM

Quote:

A little more info is required to confirm it's a commerical BSA action.



It is definitely a commercial BSA action, as I noted above. There is no question about that---the markings confirm it.

It certainly could have shipped with an original military stock. Not every commercial Lee Speed was a sporter. The fore-end was cut down by an owner---nothing ever shipped from BSA like that. The butt stock looks unusual. It doesn't match a typical military or sporting pattern...could we see a few more photos? Maybe a photo of the entire rifle, from the side?

Additional data from you will help us confirm exactly what its original configuration was, and narrow the date range.

..

Quote:

The mag cut off is missing and the original front sights have been changed at some point.
I would like to find these two parts if poss.



The mag cut off is not hard to find. Finding a front sight will depend on what kind was originally on there... some are common, while others are rare. When we figure out more about the rifle, we will know what kind of front sight it originally shipped with.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: jc5]
      #173394 - 19/12/10 08:13 AM

Thanks for the additional photos.

What is the barrel length, and what is the overall length?

Are there 5 or 7 grooves in the rifling?

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: jc5]
      #173395 - 19/12/10 08:24 AM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the help, if theres a place on the net where the members know speeds, this would have to be the place.
sve
This gun sat in a closet since the 60s. There was literally 1/2 inch of dust inside the trigger guard, the barrel was stuffed with dust bunnies. it was black and dirty everywhere.

Heres what I have learnt.

Was purchased new in the UK by great grand dad.
Gun was brought over to Canada from UK by great grand dad in late 1919.
Was given to grand dad in the 1930s.
Was accidentally bumped and the port side of the butstock got slightly burnt in a camp fire in mid 30s.
Stock and fore end are original and have never been changed.
The front sight is original, it's the BACK site that has been replaced (my bad sorry). Apparently the original sight is in one of the boxes containing grand dads stuff, as my Mom said she has seen "gun parts" she thinks may be a sight of some form. (cant confirm as of yet)


What is the barrel length?
-Measured from the mating line where it says "Trade Mark" it is exactly 19 inches to the end of barrel.

What does the front sight look like?
Sorry, its original, its the back sight that was changed, maybe im dyslexic.

Is there a "V" in a circle anywhere on the barrel?
Yes there is, starboard side by the two sets of "625"

Is there anything stamped on the top-right-rear part of the action, where the bolt slides in?
Yes there is, its marked "G25" and what mabe a . and perhaps something else but cant see it verry good.
What are the numbers on the bolt? Do they match the numbers on the action or barrel?
625, times two one on back of bolt hadle and another underside of bolt. Yes they match the barrel numbers.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173396 - 19/12/10 08:29 AM

I will try and get some better full view side shots of it when my digital cam gets back from wifes hockey turney.

Overall leangth is - 39 inches.

It looks like there is 5 rifleing grooves. They look nice and sharp.

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4seventy
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173397 - 19/12/10 08:55 AM

Welcome to the forum!
In picture #5 which shows the rear sight, directly under the sight are the words "Nitro Proved" followed by crossed sword proofmarks. These look like an X, which appears to have tiny letters stamped around it. There is another similar mark just after the first one, and another again on the action.
Can you make out what the letters are and also tell us in what position the letters are, in relation to the X, ie to the left, right, above or below the X?
Thanks

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: 4seventy]
      #173400 - 19/12/10 09:17 AM

Quote:

Welcome to the forum!
In picture #5 which shows the rear sight, directly under the sight are the words "Nitro Proved" followed by crossed sword proofmarks. These look like an X, which appears to have tiny letters stamped around it. There is another similar mark just after the first one, and another again on the action.
Can you make out what the letters are and also tell us in what position the letters are, in relation to the X, ie to the left, right, above or below the X?
Thanks




That sir is an excellent question. I was not aware there were letters around them x's.

When I look at these little proof marks with my naked eye, I feel as though my head may explode. I went and rifled though my wifes "sewing room" looking for the magnifying glass, of course I couldnt locate them. If I cant locate them I may have to wait for her. LOL!!!!

I think that a macro photo of this in hi res then cleaned up and paired out to just show the proof marks may be a good idea. Again I have to wait on her as she has the camera, bloody hockey players.

Added to things to do, so I'll add more regarding this as it comes in.

Thanks "-)

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375BSA
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173406 - 19/12/10 09:48 AM

"The receipt from Capitol Motors GM in Vernon BC dated Jan 9th 1955." The receipt appears unrelated to the rifle, except that it was found in the butt trap. There are 4 items on line one and 1 item on line two. Can you make out what the items are? I'm asking partly because your caption makes it look like it might be the original receipt for the sale of the gun. It also might give a clue to something grand dad might have been up to shortly before he put it in storage. How's the bore look?

--------------------
Working with jc5 on the Lee Speed research project. Very interested in contacting former BSA gunsmiths and other employees.
"Recoil is irrelevant when there's a tiger in your howdah!"

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173407 - 19/12/10 10:09 AM

Thanks for posting the additional photos and information.

Was your great-grandad in the service? Was he an officer?

Quote:


Was accidentally bumped and the port side of the butstock got slightly burnt in a camp fire in mid 30s.
Stock and fore end are original and have never been changed.




The camp fire would explain why the shape of the butt stock is unusual. You can see burn marks at just that point. As for the front-end, if you family history says it was not altered, then perhaps there was an owner before your great grand-dad who chopped it down, OR maybe the camp fire damaged it and it had to be lopped off. BSA never shipped a commercial fore-end with that length and shape.

You wrote:

Quote:

A photo I found on the net, this rifle resembles the bottom one.



The bottom one in that photo has a 24 1/2 inch barrel, so it cannot be that one, unless the barrel was cut down at some point. The barrel was not replaced, because the numbers match the rest, and no old numbers were struck out. The top two rifles on that catalogue page have 19 inch barrels, so they are candidates, although they have wood checkering that I cannot see in your photos. The No.3 pattern lacks checkering but has a 21 inch barrel. Yours could be a No.3 Pattern that was ordered with a custom length barrel, which was possible. I suppose everyone has figured out by now that it was not a service pattern Long Lee that was cut down, because there's no provision for volley sight. But the others features make it clear that it wasn't a factory sporter. The Military Pattern (i.e., Trade pattern) Officer's Carbine is the best candidate.

Eager to see the entire side view, from Left and Right.
..

You originally asked about its value... The magazine and the original backsight (if you find it) are together probably worth nearly as much as the rest of the rifle. Save that brass oiler and the cartridge (that is amazing)...when they are cleaned up, they might provide more clues.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: 375BSA]
      #173409 - 19/12/10 12:43 PM

Quote:

"The receipt from Capitol Motors GM in Vernon BC dated Jan 9th 1955." The receipt appears unrelated to the rifle, except that it was found in the butt trap. There are 4 items on line one and 1 item on line two. Can you make out what the items are? I'm asking partly because your caption makes it look like it might be the original receipt for the sale of the gun. It also might give a clue to something grand dad might have been up to shortly before he put it in storage. How's the bore look?



Hi, Unfortunatley it's not the receipt for the gun, although I wont rule that out from being "somewhere", sorry if it sounded like I was trying to imply that it was such. I dont think GM ever sold guns though and you dont think they sod them either. The reciept is for brackets. 4 at $3.00 and one at $2.50. $14.50 and $.73 for what looks like tax. It was "Charged" and signed by the Purchaser John Lauriner upside down, the way it would be facing you at the parts counter. No one here knows this bloke, so it was probably someone who was having work done by grandpa, as he did mechanic work back in the time of this reciept.

The bore looks brand new, nice rifling grooves very pronounced right up to the action. I'll have it headspaced and checked/reported on up the road and before I fire it.

Im loving this. Thanks for chipping in.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173410 - 19/12/10 01:09 PM


Hi jc5

Thanks for all the info. You and your friends here really know your stuff. I appreciate all your collective help.

Anything past grampa is a bit fuzzy in the family tree. It's made me realise sadly how little I know about my British kin. I hope to get that info in detail from uncles/aunts who are still alive. From thier info on GreatGrand dad I will have a better chance of tracking his early life, perhaps his fathers ect ect.

"Was your great-grandad in the service? Was he an officer?"
Short answer is yes for service, dont know what branch or rank he held. Yet.

"The camp fire would explain why the shape of the butt stock is unusual. You can see burn marks at just that point. As for the front-end, if you family history says it was not altered, then perhaps there was an owner before your great grand-dad who chopped it down, OR maybe the camp fire damaged it and it had to be lopped off. BSA never shipped a commercial fore-end with that length and shape."

When you first said this, I strongly dissagreed that the forend was somehow chopped or cut down. But sir, you appear to be right. Heres how I have come to that conclusion and realization, (thanks btw)

All exposed metal on the barrel and action are very polished almost a bright nikel color, very shiny silvery. But where the stock has been covering the bottom of the barrel, it is very dark.

So I thought, how could there of been a forend shortening but show shiny metal all around the exposed barrel. The underside dark part lined up with the forend perfectly. So, I intictivly thought that the foreend could not have been cut down. But...........

When I look at the underside of the gun under a 400 watt metal halide shop light, I can very very very faintly see where there was another extension to the forend going up another 3 inches. It is super faint, but you can see it when you look, I will post pics of wat I am taking about later on when I get control of the camera again. I will take a few side snaps with the iphone camera in the mean time. Thanks again.

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173412 - 19/12/10 02:50 PM

I'm glad you're enjoying this! Me too! After all, talking about old guns is supposed to be FUN, right? Otherwise, what are we all doing here?

I've replied to your PM, with contact info so I can send you my rifle survey. I appreciate you sharing your info. Every bit of data is very helpful.


It's great that this old rifle will give you the chance to learn more about your family tree. I've always said, if only these old guns could talk...

Yours is (and was) a nice rifle. Well made and well travelled. It also emerged at a very interesting time in the history of rifle development--close on the advent of the cordite era, but before the '98 Mauser came to rule the roost. It was a time of Long Lees, Krags, Mannlichers, and Winchester '95s. Smart minds and demanding customers were still "working things out." Transitional eras are like border towns... always full of strange characters... you don't know where they've been, where they're going, or who is following them... Yeah, you can quote me on that ! I suppose that accounts for my fascination with rifle design in the twenty years before the Great War.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: 4seventy]
      #173415 - 19/12/10 06:44 PM

Quote:

Welcome to the forum!
In picture #5 which shows the rear sight, directly under the sight are the words "Nitro Proved" followed by crossed sword proofmarks. These look like an X, which appears to have tiny letters stamped around it. There is another similar mark just after the first one, and another again on the action.
Can you make out what the letters are and also tell us in what position the letters are, in relation to the X, ie to the left, right, above or below the X?
Thanks



Hi,This looks to be crossed swords, handles of the swords to the left side of the X
On the left of the X between the handles there may be a crown.
On the right of the X there may be a 4 or an A

I am not sure what that glob is between the first two X's

Still looking for the mag glass.

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4seventy
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: old_LEESPEED]
      #173416 - 19/12/10 07:26 PM

Hi old LEESPEED,

You are probably right about the crown on the left side of the X, and the right side could well be a "V".

If those are the marks, (according to proof info that I have on hand here) it should mean that your rifle was proofed prior to 1904.

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rgg_7
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: 4seventy]
      #173421 - 20/12/10 12:22 AM

Knowing the gun's hidtory is a big plus. I generally record this and keep in a file as its proves "provenence".

Just a few more questions as I think were are closing in on what you have;

1. Confirm barrel length. You can do this by inserting the bolt; putting a cleaning rod down the barrel to contact the bolt face; mark with a piece of masking tape; withdrawn and record the measurement.
2. Show us a clear picture of the front sight.
3. Show us a cleat picture of both swivels.
4. Are there any stampings on the brass butt plate.
5. You magazine has a front loop on it. Does you triggerguard have any evidence of a loop?

The rifle is a commerical BSA....just need to determine which model so we can point you in the right direction for parts/restoration.

Hope this helps,

Ron

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jc5
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: rgg_7]
      #173430 - 20/12/10 03:46 AM

Quote:

Knowing the gun's hidtory is a big plus. I generally record this and keep in a file as its proves "provenence".



I agree. Type out everything you know about the history of the rifle in your family...if you can find out out the rank and the unit of your great greatdad, his address at the time, you can add that later. We may yet learn where he purchased it, either from your family or from my research into retail records. Anyway, type everything you know and save a hardcopy, with the idea that this goes with the rifle whenever you sell it or pass it on. This rifle may still be shooting for another hundred years, and guys on the gun forums in 2110 shouldn't have to puzzle over it!

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old_LEESPEED
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Re: Help with early Lee Speed Patent. [Re: rgg_7]
      #173473 - 20/12/10 07:08 PM

.

Edited by old_LEESPEED (21/12/10 06:33 AM)

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