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tinker
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So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap...
      #119743 - 29/11/08 11:22 AM

What exactly would you do if you ended up in posession of a Lee-Speed action?

I'm sitting here with an action, complete with bottom metal, trigger guard and trigger, mag catch assy, mag cutoff, and side-mounted peepsight, all hanging off the end of a stock bolt...

wondering just what should I do..?


It's not every day that one of these surface.
Kick it down the road or park it in the back of the vault for a rainy day?


What say y'all?




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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9.3x57
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119754 - 29/11/08 01:38 PM

Build, build, build!!

Now, now, now!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #119755 - 29/11/08 02:07 PM

I'd been thinking that for quite some time, the Lee-Speed image and discussionfest of late has somehow gotten my interest focused on these slick little bolt rifles.

I'm not that much of a bolt rifle guy, but there are exceptions...

While out at the Reno show, I had the chance to handle a couple of them, one in 303 that seemed to have had seen much better days, and another one in 375 Express that was holding honest to Hubertus 98% orig Brit condition -- that knock-dead beautiful, spooky glass-like blacking on the furniture, perfect mechanical perfect wood yadda yadda -- total time capsule!

I'm thinking that this action would be the perfect candidate as foundation for a period replica of one of the Take-Down models in .375 with a 30" barrel in the No.1 pattern..!!


That would indeed be a good use for this action.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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mehulkamdar
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119757 - 29/11/08 02:46 PM

Tinker,

You have a PM my friend.

--------------------
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Caprivi
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #119795 - 30/11/08 02:27 AM

I suspect Mehul may have beat me to it, but I think you sell it to me, you really don't want to be wrapped up in a long drawn out project.....LOL

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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119799 - 30/11/08 03:00 AM

Speaking of the Lee-Speed discussionfest...



Here's an image of the action.





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Caprivi
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119804 - 30/11/08 05:36 AM

Just lovely, possibly only to be out done by the 10.99euro Westley marked one.

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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: Caprivi]
      #119805 - 30/11/08 05:45 AM

*...tinker looks around, under the table, behind his computer screen...*


Which Westley marked one do you speak of?




Tinker


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FrankS
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119858 - 30/11/08 04:42 PM

Here is what I'd do. Go out and buy a handful of lottery tickets. You are one lucky man. Frank

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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: FrankS]
      #119910 - 01/12/08 05:00 AM

Frank-

Thanks for the comment.
I really don't think I've ever seen a Lee-Speed action in this stripped and orphaned condition before.
Might be scores of them littering the landscape but I just wasn't looking.
Wasn't really looking for this one either, but here it is.
Google doesn't seem to cough up anything for me, but I don't know who the 'usual suspects' are regarding Lee-Speed spares and repair parts either.

Now, on bolts for the Lee-Speed -- I don't know whether or not an Enfield bolt will work. Time to brush up on my Lee-Speed specifics and find out.


The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of a barrel take-down configuration.
Anyone here have images of the WR Quick-Detach barrel patent for the Lee-Speed?



Cheers
Tinker


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9.3x57
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119936 - 01/12/08 11:54 AM

Tinker:

Build that .375 Express!

A Lee with virtually identical ballistics to the 9.3x57 would make a dandy bear gun for following the hounds!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #119944 - 01/12/08 01:10 PM

9mm-


I may be talking myself into doing just that.
There are two projects on the fire right now which will prove most distracting once they crown the proverbial breech.

When I was slipping this action into my back pocket on the way to the wagon, I was thinking much more of lobbing it out to the mates here on the forum than keeping it for my own use. I've been rescuing obscure and desirable tidbits such as this for nearly all my life - most often the tenure of possession is fleeting at best.

The thought of a replica Lee-Speed sporter in barrel take-down configuration (ever seen one..? - not me) chambered for the 'mini big-bore' is starting to hold some traction.
Was it Marrakai who tipped us to the Australian source for current production replica Lee-Speed Sporter rough-inlet wood kits?
Anyone here care to comment on that?

If close-to-shape wood is available with good color and figure, at an affordable price -- I might just be looking at taking this thing to completion.
(isn't that how Clinton distinguished the letting of a payload into his assistant..? never mind)

9.3, will an 'every day low price' enfield bolt work in one of these actions with little to no modification?
You got a spare out in the woodshed that you could drop in the mail?
I could build a bolt shroud in the machine shop, the engraving patterns on the high-zoot London sporters were simple and sparse, I could handle that task as well.

I bet you even have a 375 barrel in the right contour propping the chicken-coop door open out back behind the corral. I have plenty of stock from which to mill a full-rib and sight bases.

Hm.

Glen Fewless does an ultra sweet Best Blacking job, and I bet he wouldn't kick something like this off his stoop...



Waaaaitaminnit!
This could easily get out of hand and become a sporting rifle before I knew it!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Caprivi
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119952 - 01/12/08 02:43 PM

Quote:

*...tinker looks around, under the table, behind his computer screen...*
Which Westley marked one do you speak of?

Tinker




On another thread here about the Lee there was a posting of a WR marked Lee for a opening bid of 10.99eu.

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To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by Caprivi (01/12/08 04:23 PM)


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tinker
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: Caprivi]
      #119953 - 01/12/08 03:00 PM

Caprivi-



Here you go, took a bit of searching through the past few days' posts but I found it.
The auction you speak of is here

Quote:

On another thread here about the Lee there was a posting of a WR marked Lee for a opening bid of 100.99eu







Cheers
Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Caprivi
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Re: So, a Lee-Speed action falls in your lap... [Re: tinker]
      #119957 - 01/12/08 04:31 PM

Thats the one. Still only at 33eu I think, I don't speak or read German. Cool gun. I am a WR junkie.

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jc5
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Now hold on... [Re: Caprivi]
      #120150 - 03/12/08 09:55 AM

Tinker,

Before you go and start making repro wood, rebluing and all that... there's a few things to notice about this action.

First, congratulations on finding this! It may be quite rare.

Notice the safety lever. It looks more like a Lee Metford MkI safety than the kind found on any SMLE. If it's a MLM MkI safety, then it is quite rare and may be more valuable than if you found an entire Lee Speed intact. They abolished and recalled those early safeties on the Gov't arms. I know some guys who are looking for those. Please post a picture of the left side of the action so we can be sure. Now look at the sear. It has the pre-SMLE single stage trigger configuration, and you don't see that on actions with an SMLE safety. Are there any markings on the rest of action? Any numbers? Proof marks? Is there anything stamped on the top-right-rear of the action---on the flat part where the bolt slides in?

I think it is unlikely that this action was a sporter. It is definitely a commercial gun, but was probably a target or volunteer model (privately purchased). Most (but not all) sporters had engraving, and sporters never had the volley sight lever, as yours does. All the evidence, therefore, leads me to conclude that this was a target or volunteer model that was made according to the MLM MkI pattern. This would have been among the very earliest commercial Lee Metfords made. The proper thing to do would be to restore it to that configuration, which is not cheap, but it's certainly possible. I know someone who has done it. If you want a sporter, you might shop around for a decent Lee Speed sporter or action. They are available, and are a lot more common than the one you've got. This one would not look right as a sporter with the safety and volley levers...sporter wood was not cut for it, and it just would not be proper.

The other parts you mentioned--bolt and bolt cover---are a bit harder to find than SMLE parts, but they are not that difficult to get.

For more info on Lee Speeds, I have posted quite a bit over on this thread: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=23226

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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tinker
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Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #120204 - 03/12/08 04:39 PM

jc5-


I will heed your call to hesitation.
Also I will get it squared away in front of the camera tomorrow and get some more images of it to put up into this conversation.

Frankly, I am not married to thoughts of building this into a sporting rifle. With all the rage going around over the Lee-Speed sporters, my limited taste for bolt rifles has been wet for a good old one with good old wear all over it.
Perhaps the winds will blow one my way some time.

The action you see above here at the top of this thread, it had been under the thumb of someone with many more guns than I have, and the right time came along to whisk it away so I took the opportunity.
I just about half-figured that I'd end up with it only temporarily.
I am not against trading it off to someone better prepared to do it's proper justice.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Sarg
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: tinker]
      #120210 - 03/12/08 06:02 PM

Tinker - Do you think the wind blows from the South a all ?

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tinker
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Sarg]
      #120212 - 03/12/08 06:27 PM

Sarg-

I'll hoist a wind-sock and see if I can catch one!


I think you'd noted in our conversation much of what was just noted here on this action.
I'm listening and learning.
Look here tomorrow for some close up images of the marks on this action.
I look forward to seeing what comes of this.


Cheers
Tinker


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tinker
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: tinker]
      #120295 - 04/12/08 11:59 AM












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Caprivi
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: tinker]
      #120309 - 04/12/08 03:33 PM

For repro wood contact Great American Gunstock Co. in California. http://www.gunstocks.com/
They have a patern for a pretty good looking Lee-like sporter.

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Marrakai
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #120329 - 04/12/08 10:57 PM

Quote:

Was it Marrakai who tipped us to the Australian source for current production replica Lee-Speed Sporter rough-inlet wood kits?
Anyone here care to comment on that?




OK Tinker, bit late, but here's a pic of the offering from Goeff Slee in Australia, complete with tenon for horn fore-end tip:




and here's a finished example (but not by me!):




...and just for no particular reason, here's the "Sporting .303s" display I put together
for the Northern Territory Arms Collectors booth at the Royal Darwin Show mid-year:



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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tinker
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Marrakai]
      #120342 - 05/12/08 02:59 AM

Nice Spacers!




Cheers
Tinker


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Caprivi
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: tinker]
      #121146 - 14/12/08 10:10 AM

May this be a bolt that will work ?????????????? Says Lee Metford pre-1895.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118124142

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jc5
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #121223 - 15/12/08 05:47 AM

That bolt is not correct for Tinker's receiver, though it might work in a pinch if all you cared about was firing the rifle (assuming it headspaced OK). I would not do it.

The bolt on auction looks like an MLM MkII bolt, so it would probably lack the cutouts for the safety lever to work. Also the bolt head is completely different from the MLM MkI and MkI* bolt, which is what Tinker needs.

Attached is an image of what the proper bolt would look like.

Cheers,
JC




--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Caprivi
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121224 - 15/12/08 05:52 AM

Thanks for the info/update. I know next to nothing about Lee actions. I would love to built a Speed styled sporter but have not found a action that suits me.. Actually a WR marketed one is my preference, but........

Is there a action without charger guide and magazine cut-off ????

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jc5
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #121276 - 15/12/08 08:44 PM

Caprivi, commercial Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields (what we're generically calling "Lee Speeds" for convenience, whether or not they have the Lee Speed Patent stamp) were built on Magazine Lee Metford, Magazine Lee Enfield, and SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) actions. Only the SMLE-type actions had charger guides (you'll notice that Tinker's does not have a charger guide). However, the charger guide is useful to today's shooter becuase it makes it easier to add scope mounts without drilling into the rifle.

All Lee Speeds had the magazine cutoff, except for those chambered for the .375 Flanged Express. If you don't like the cutoff, it only takes a screwdriver to remove it.

To make a fake Lee Speed method #1 (the cheap way): I would get hold of a decent SMLE No.1, MkIII* and replace the wood with a sporter stock (hang on to the original wood; someone will need it someday). Remove the ugly military backsight and add some folding leaf express sights. For the fore-end and buttstock, the Slee furniture in the above post looks very nice, but it does not look much like a Lee Speed stock. However, there is no source of original or repro stocks that match the original Lee Speed pattern, so choose a stock that suits you. You won't have a true Lee Speed, or even one that looks like one, but you'll have a smooth, well-balanced attractive Lee Enfield sporter that is tastefully done in the spirit of the classic sporters--it will put bubba to shame and be a lot of fun to shoot and show off.

To make a fake Lee Speed method #2 (more expensive than buying a genuine Lee Speed): find a Long Lee action (MLE or MLM) that no longer has a barrel--please don't rip up an intact Long Lee--or as in the previous example, use an SMLE MkIII*. Find a Lithgow heavy barrel, such as were made by Lithgow from the 1920s to 1950s for Australian rifle clubs, and fit it to your receiver. (Thicker barrels, like the Lithgow Heavy and the Long Lee look more attractive on a sporter than the thinner SMLE barrel). Add modern express sights (the original BSA cape sights are no longer available), and pay someone to make you a buttstock and fore-end from scratch, according to the exact dimensions of the original BSA sporters. Add engraving, your family crest, and smooth-rounded 5-shot magazine, sliding tang safety, and refinish to taste.

Keep in mind that Tinker's action at the top of this thread was not a sporter. It was a commercial gun (still a Lee Speed) that matched the military service rifle in every way except its markings (although it was probably better finished and had nicer wood). Such Lee Speeds were made for Volunteer units (for private purchase) and for target shooters who required a gun that matched the specs of the service rifle. His action is a rarity, because it was made according to the pattern of the very first Gov't Lee Metford--a pattern that was soon replaced with improved models. It retains features--like that early safety--that were recalled and removed on the military versions. Because this one was a private purchase, the owner decided he would keep that safety thank you very much. However, somehwere along the way, he lost the rest of the rifle! There's a story there somewhere...!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Marrakai
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121286 - 15/12/08 11:39 PM

Oh I just love that little throw-away line there, jc5...
Quote:

add...sliding tang safety



After that, you might spend the rest of the afternoon bartering world peace, curing all known diseases, and locating Jimmy Hoffa!




Good information though.
Might still be more satisfying to find a genuine LS a bit down in condition (read 'affordable') and throw a few dollars and a bit of spare time at restoring it. With that early action Tinker is standing right at the bottom looking up!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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jc5
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Marrakai]
      #121307 - 16/12/08 05:35 AM

LOL

You're bustin' me up Marrakai!


I was writing with a bit of grin, but NOT a smirk, I swear! In fact, I have a fake Lee Speed project underway right now: an orphaned MLM MkII* action with Lithgow heavy barrel. Still trying to decide what to do about the wood. I don't plan on engraving anything (!), but I have to devise some way to plug the unsightly holes on the left-hand side where the volley sight went. I was thinking of fitting a polished disc with my initials or something brash in Latin. I support the creation of homemade Lee Speeds 100%, provded they are done with care and attention to detail, and if they don't involve chopping up anything historical. But like I outlined in my last post, it's not cheap.

Marrakai is right about finding a genuine Lee Speed that needs some TLC. That's the best route that keeps you in the sanity lane. My very first Lee Speed was something of a bitsa along these lines. It was an engraved BSA No.1 or No.2 pattern (impossible now to tell which) with matching bolt, magazine, and fore-end. However, the barrel had been replaced with a military SMLE barrel, broad arrow and all. And then the whole thing was conspicuously reblued (maybe to cover the pitting). The owner had the good taste to keep the express sights and fit them to the new barrel. What's really funny is that the buttstock is a replacement--the checkering is clearly not up to BSA standards and the color doesn't match--but it had the tang safety fitted! That must have been a bit of work! If only these old rifles could talk...

As for Tinker's action, yeah, it's sort of like trying to restore a vintage motorcycle starting with only the frame. But the thing is super rare. I have never seen a commercial MLM MkI before this---have any of you? The thing belongs in a museum. Or in a display case in my study (hint, hint, Tinker!:)). Restoring it is sort of pointless. I think it's an amazing find and I appreciate it just for what it is. Certainly the earliest commercial Lee Metford I've ever seen. Hell, I've never even seen a Gov't MLM MkI, outside of books!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Rowdy
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121564 - 19/12/08 06:45 PM

Yes - well identified and almost impossible to find the parts to restore.
The trigger gaurd should only fit the 8 round single row magazine as well.
However a couple of weeks ago I saw an example of my holy grail - yes they do exist - a BSA Lee Speed sporter built on the MK.I action - looked very much like the later Mk.II actioned rifles as you would imagine but the wood was a little fuller in the fore end and the grip cap had more of an angle - I will try to organise some pictures in the new year when I next see the owner.


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jc5
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Rowdy]
      #121570 - 19/12/08 09:18 PM

Hi Rowdy,

Man, I am eager to see that MkI sporter and every mark on it. They were certainly not produced for very long---BSA was producing the MkII early in 1892, so there were probably only a handful of MkI sporters.

Another interesting thing about Tinker's action--which is clearly a MkI-- is that the trigger is from a MkII. It has the cup for the sear. Weird.

...

On many early Lee Speeds I have seen a stamp that consists of a V in circle. Anyone know what that means?

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Caprivi
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #122890 - 03/01/09 12:37 PM

Found another bolt ??????? Maybe this one will work in your action



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=119890491

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jc5
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Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #122905 - 03/01/09 05:43 PM

Happy New Year all!

That bolt might work, but it is not correct. I posted a picture of the correct bolt above.

Unfortunately, I do not own a Lee Metford MkI, so I cannot know for certain if a later bolt will work, though it seems like it would. Maybe if Tinker wants to meet up, I could try a MLM MkII bolt in the action and see if it works and headspaces. Has anyone tried it?

I would not do it though.

Besides, in addition to being a later model of bolt, the one on auction is for a carbine (swept forward and flattened handle). The carbine was still several years away from being invented when Tinker's action was made. Also, the carbine bolt has the new-fangled cocking piece safety, and Tinker's has the "old school" lever safety on the action. He couldn't be seen in decent company wearing TWO safeties, now could he?

The auction bolt is a good one, however, for someone who needs it for a MLM or MLE carbine, or for a Lee Speed sporter, which it could pass for. If you were to use this one for a built-up, "bitsa" Lee Speed imitation, well... the carbine style bolt looks stylish for sure, but unless you really plan to wear it in a saddle scabbard, it offers no ergonomic advantage over a regular bolt when actually shooting. Note that it is missing the bolt cover.
...

So, does anyone know what the stamp of the V in a circle might mean?

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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darwinmauser
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Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 217
Loc: Darwin NT
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Rowdy]
      #126694 - 11/02/09 11:10 PM

Quote:

Yes - well identified and almost impossible to find the parts to restore.
The trigger gaurd should only fit the 8 round single row magazine as well.
However a couple of weeks ago I saw an example of my holy grail - yes they do exist - a BSA Lee Speed sporter built on the MK.I action - looked very much like the later Mk.II actioned rifles as you would imagine but the wood was a little fuller in the fore end and the grip cap had more of an angle - I will try to organise some pictures in the new year when I next see the owner.




I know where a "spare" single stack magazine can be aquired.


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