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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
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Loc: Texas
Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: NitroX]
      #379013 - 01/09/23 06:09 AM

Sounds like a great hunt. They look very similar to the American Bison.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #379020 - 01/09/23 04:12 PM

Quote:

Sounds like a great hunt. They look very similar to the American Bison.



The European species of the same. Smaller.

If only we still had the wild kine, the aurochs, as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: NitroX]
      #379027 - 01/09/23 07:52 PM

Actually we still have it, the Aurochs. It is the Spanish fighting cattle, and in France we also have big herds of it in the Camargue.

Reconstructing an original Aurochs is not difficult, but we no longer have the terrain for it. In Germany attempts have been made to keep Wisent in the wild. A disaster in our densely populated areas and the herds are too small so there are many genetic problems.

It is better to protect species that still exist before experimenting with species that are more or less extinct.

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bwanabobftw
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Posts: 667
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: NitroX]
      #379087 - 05/09/23 11:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like a great hunt. They look very similar to the American Bison.



The European species of the same. Smaller.

If only we still had the wild kine, the aurochs, as well.




Thanks John for the clarification.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #379094 - 05/09/23 04:13 PM

Interesting the North American vs European species.

Wapiti or American "elk" vs Red stag / deer

Moose vs European moose/alg/elg.
(American elk was misnamed after the elg, European moose.)

American bison aka "buffalo" vs Wisent European bison.

The European species are all smaller than the north American species. I assume they could interbreed.

Brown bear also exist in both places. Are inland American brown bears/grizzlys bigger than European brown bears? Almost certainly the well fed coastal Alaskan brown bears. But otherwise. Brown bears in Scandinavia, Romania, former Yugoslavian countries, elsewhere and of course Russia. The Russian brown bears have a reputation for size, of course those in Eastern Siberia, Kamchatka are just as big as the biggest North American BBs.

Interesting the species and the size differences. I wonder why the size differences?

--------------------
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...
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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: NitroX]
      #379098 - 05/09/23 04:53 PM

As for the Elk, Wapitis and Red Deers are two different species, despite the fact that hybridizations are said to be possible. The Red Deer is smaller that the Wapiti or the Maral.

The differences in the size of the Moose are mainly due nowadays to the terrain and the food it offers. According to old reports there were also in Europe in the past very large Mooses near to those of BC/Canada for example.

The same applies to the Wisent as well as the Bear, all a question of the terrain that is still available and the food that this terrain offers.

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DarylS
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Re: forest bovines in Poland *DELETED* [Re: grandveneur]
      #379108 - 06/09/23 02:39 AM

Post deleted by DarylS

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: DarylS]
      #379110 - 06/09/23 03:21 AM

What was meant above all was why the same wild species are smaller in Europe than in North America.

The discussion was triggered by the Wisent, which is said to be smaller than the North American Bison, although that is not so clear. The two species differ a little bit related to body shape.

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Bindi2
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: grandveneur]
      #379111 - 06/09/23 10:08 AM


animals are not a fixed genetic type. A split mob/herd will wander along in different directions over time as there is no connection between them for inter breeding. One gene becomes dominant in one mob/herd and creates differences. Gene mutation.

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grandveneur
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: Bindi2]
      #379112 - 06/09/23 04:39 PM

Genetics certainly play a role in the end, but sticking with the size of the animals, the environment plays at the beginning a major role. On small islands, animals tend to get smaller. There were small elephants on many islands in the Mediterranean Sea.

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Bindi2
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: grandveneur]
      #379114 - 06/09/23 07:47 PM


Correct to a certain point, predators are also a main factor. Small islands small quantity of food available smaller animals survive therefore that gene pool dominates.
The American Bison was fine until white man arrived then it was a double hit in a very short time.

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grandveneur
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: Bindi2]
      #379115 - 06/09/23 10:14 PM

The american Bison was unfortunately deliberately exterminated.

It was a little different with the Wisent in Europe, since it was a game whose hunting was reserved for the noble mans. Hunting without good wildlife management certainly contributed to its near-extinction, but habitat loss was a major factor.



Edited by grandveneur (06/09/23 10:32 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: grandveneur]
      #379131 - 07/09/23 11:05 AM

Quote:

The american Bison was unfortunately deliberately exterminated.

It was a little different with the Wisent in Europe, since it was a game whose hunting was reserved for the noble mans. Hunting without good wildlife management certainly contributed to its near-extinction, but habitat loss was a major factor.





Might be a language issue, but the US bison was not exterminated.

There are many existing herds both wild and semi-domesticated.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379134 - 07/09/23 03:47 PM

Quote:

...

Might be a language issue, but the US bison was not exterminated.

There are many existing herds both wild and semi-domesticated.



Close to it !

There were a number of reasons why it was done or at least tried, but you probably also know the topic and the corresponding photos of this time.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379135 - 07/09/23 03:47 PM

(GV answered in between. )

Not exterminated, "near extinction" means nearly but not 100% exterminated. I can't remember how many was the lowest estimate, 100 or 400? Nowhere near endangered now. Maybe a North American member can contribute.

Art/Ripp, has a neighbour with a domestic bison herd. There are many. Most hunting is pedestrian. Hamish animals. There are reportedly herds that are wilder and better hunting. Mountain herds? I'd like to hunt one of these herds one day. Shooting a "milk cow" bison standing in a paddock isn't of interest.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (07/09/23 03:51 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: grandveneur]
      #379136 - 07/09/23 03:49 PM

Quote:







GV, what's the writing in your image? What does it say? Try as I can, I can't read it or the letters. A place name I assume.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (07/09/23 04:26 PM)

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany
Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: NitroX]
      #379144 - 07/09/23 04:58 PM

Outdated Cyrillic script.

Belovezhskaya Pushcha

The dense forest of Bialowieza

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: forest bovines in Poland [Re: grandveneur]
      #379146 - 07/09/23 05:04 PM

A ha, That forest. Makes sense. Thank you.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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