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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Marrakai]
      #385487 - 28/06/24 11:09 PM

Thanks. Anyone posting the names of the commercial lubes, would be appreciated.

I bought .454 balls as that was listed on the Uberti website as appropriate.

I see how they go.

My club has a once a month BP day but itsca month away. Non doubt attending that the local guys will be able to provide some advice and ideas.

Does anyone know recommended powder charges of FFFg and FFg?

I have FFg and can't get FFFg yet.

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Marrakai]
      #385490 - 29/06/24 01:25 AM

I think Tony's suggestion of Vaseline is a good one. I know it makes a GREAT BP lube for bullets in BP ctgs. when mixed with Beeswax, 60% Vas., 40% Beeswax.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385494 - 29/06/24 03:50 AM

I second the petroleum jelly/beeswax blend for all BP shooting. Simply adjust the ratio for the weather. More beeswax for hotter seasons, more PJ for colder days.
Some use a lard based over ball lube or something like crisco. I don’t know how hot it is where you are - Winter, right? - but if I tried only petroleum jelly or shortening this time of year, it would be melting down the front of my cylinder!

As for the powder charge, I would simply fill a chamber up to .454” below the cylinder mouth expecting the powder and ball column to be roughly flush with the cylinder mouth and then a little below after pushing the ball home compressing the powder and leaving enough space on top for your smear of lube.
I don’t think you need all that much lube for a pistol.

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Marrakai
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Huvius]
      #385496 - 29/06/24 09:48 AM

Huvius:
Petroleum jelly on your side of the pond might be slightly different from the Vaseline sold here in Oz. Our stuff doesn't melt at normal "room" temperatures, and where I live, it can be hot! Never had it melt on the firing line.

Remembering too that the over-ball lube is probably more for chain-fire protection than for leading prevention in the bore.

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Marrakai
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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Marrakai]
      #385500 - 29/06/24 12:09 PM

I would think it likely is the same. If named Vaseline, it would have to be the same.
Petroleum Jelly, ie: Vaseline, is a petroleum wax, not an oil or gelly still being a petroleum product that does not mix with BP fouling. That is why it works with BP.
Most petroleum products do not mix with BP fouling.
Vaseline does.
That is why Vas./BW makes a good BP lube. I have used in on REAL bullets in muzzleloading rifles to good effect as well as in a .50/90 Rolling Block and even with smokeless loads to 2,200fps in a .45 rifle with cast bullets.
Amazing stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Jim_C
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385502 - 29/06/24 12:28 PM

I often use 26 grains of FFg in my 1860 when shooting round ball. Velocity is a bit below that of an equivalent charge of FFFg, but I've won enough matches with it that I don't worry about it.

Keith advised using a tallow-soaked felt wad under the ball. This was something he'd picked up from Civil War vets or their contemporaries. If you want to give this a try, his source of felt was old felt hats. The felt was dipped in melted tallow and allowed to cool, then the wads were punched. If you don't have a wad punch of the correct diameter, a 45 caliber rifle case or pistol case can be used. Lay the lubed felt on the end grain of a piece of soft wood, press the case mouth on the felt, and give it a smack with a mallet. If you're going to do much of this, drill out the primer pocket with a 4-5mm drill bit and poke them out with a splinter of wood.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Jim_C]
      #385508 - 29/06/24 09:09 PM

How does a tallow soaked wad or any greased wad affect the black powder?

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385509 - 30/06/24 12:29 AM

Good note, Jim.
Does not effect the powder.
Elmer wrote that up in Sixguns for Keith & in "The Rifleman" magazine.
I've never tried it, but if he says it works, well damn it, it works.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385511 - 30/06/24 01:17 AM

Daryl,
Well said: "if he says it works, well damn it, it works".

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RB

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Huvius
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: 85lc]
      #385514 - 30/06/24 06:41 AM

My gut tells me that you would certainly lose a few grains of powder using a tallow soaked felt wad - not just in space used up but in unburnt granules getting thrust into the underside of the wad. That must be happening to some extent in my opinion.
It works, sure, but unless you recover a blown wad to inspect one wouldn’t know for sure.

As to chain firing, I suppose the smear of lube over the ball is preventative but a ball skived at the cylinder mouth is a pretty good seal in itself - that is if the mouth of the chamber isn’t tighter than the body of the chamber. I’ve heard of that but haven’t measured any of my revolvers for that.

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Jim_C
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Huvius]
      #385522 - 30/06/24 02:38 PM

Keith was writing of the use of a cap and ball revolver as a working revolver. He felt the use of lubed wads improved utility as in contributed to a reduction in fouling/leading.

I've played with >30 1860s (originals and repros) in a Ransom Rest, tweaking one factor at a time and seeing what the effect was. Testing from temps of -25C to 46C, I've not seen any significant effect of tallow-lubed wads on velocity. (I suspect this is due at least in part to seating the ball to the same depth with and without wads: the charge in the wad loads are compressed more than the loads without wads.) Groups were fairly consistent, from the first cylinder to the 8th.

With the right lube smeared over the seated ball, you can usually get similar results. The lube is messy, and shot-to-shot consistency can be an issue. It is also a pain to holster-carry a revolver loaded in this manner. I think Keith--and the folks he learned from--were trying to avoid this.

(Wads dipped in beeswax resulted in a slight--appx 25 fps--increase in velocity but less-consistent grouping. Usually by the 5th cylinder or so, fouling became an issue.)

Curiously, I've never had an accidental chain fire when using balls that were oversized for the chamber, even when shot without lube (and I've fired hundreds of shots this way). I've been able to experimentally re-create chain fires by leaving caps off a loaded chamber, but even then it doesn't happen every time.

If you really get into shooting a C&B revolver, there are all kinds of tricks and tuning you can do to improve or optimize performance for your purposes. In that way it is like any other pistol.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Jim_C]
      #385523 - 30/06/24 06:21 PM

One of the guys at the BP club had preloaded "cartridges". Powder, ball, maybe a wad in the middle in toilet paper wrapped cylinders.

How are these made?

Are they less consistent in firing?

Do they have to be pricked before inserting into the cylinder? I don't believe he did.

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385533 - 01/07/24 01:33 AM

If there was no "twisted tail" on the bottom of the 'ctg', then no, pricking the 'cgt' would not be necessary.
The cap blast would easily penetrate even bond paper to ignite the charge.
Testing would need to be done to 'test' different ctg. designs.
In my rifle ctgs. the base is torn off, the powder drained into the bore - THEN the ctg. and ball are seated on the powder, crushing the ctg. into a wad between powder and ball.
This helps seal the ball from the flame of the powder.
In the revolver, you would still have to use an oversized ball to create a seal between the powder and flame.

--------------------
Daryl


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Jim_C
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385534 - 01/07/24 01:33 AM

When I mess with them, I'm still making cartridges using nitrated paper wrapped around a wood former, but there is a commercial system with good instructions and video here: https://cartridgekits.com/

Typically, you don't need to break the paper before inserting in the cylinder: compression of the cartridge when seating the ball will split the cartridge, or the flash from the cap will burn through. I've not noticed any loss of consistency when using them, though they do tend to be a bit less accurate than match loads loaded as mixed components. I only make them with conicals (vs. round balls), and I'm sure this is a factor in accuracy.

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: Jim_C]
      #385554 - 01/07/24 11:44 PM

Seems to me the issue nitrated ctgs. contained the 226gr. conical for the Model of 1860.
Might have been lighter, though.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385913 - 21/07/24 11:51 PM

I've got a question regarding original handguns of this model and similar models. And Hollywood.

First seeing that cylinders can be purchased which can be loaded with modern .45 Colt cartridges of suitable power I guess.

Hollywood often shows handguns in Westerns which look like front stuffing cylinder BP revolvers. But which are being reloaded with brass cartridges. Hollywood of course is rarely historically accurate.

But where old front stuffing revolvers in historical times, given a more modern upgrade in the 1800s with cartridge cylinders being purchasable? Extending their lives and allowing folk of limited means to modetise their handgun without needing to buy a whole new handgun.

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385920 - 22/07/24 03:09 AM

Jose Wales shows Clint Eastwood using "spare" cylinders in what is likely a m1860 Army revolver. Seems to me he also had an 1847 Walker.

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Daryl


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sharps4590
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385924 - 22/07/24 04:27 AM

There was a couple popular conversions to cartridges. One was the Richards/Mason, which became the 1872 Colt Model and, another was the Thuer. I have read and seen a few conversions by blacksmiths/gunsmiths but they were obviously not production conversions.

I don't know of any cylinders that were available just to buy and swap out. One must remember that there was very few cartridges in existence at the time. The 45 Colt wasn't available until after 1873. The Richards/Mason conversion was chambered for the 44 Colt and, there was rimfire conversions available. The 1851 Colts were chambered in 38 Colt.

When Jose Wales changes out the cylinder of his 1858 Remington he is replacing the fired cylinder with another percussion cylinder that was previously loaded. Hollywood has that part right as the practice has been recorded by Civil War era chronicles.

Jose Wales also carried an 1849 Baby Dragoon in a shoulder holster.

I have the Uberti version of the 1872 Colt in 44 Colt and made my cases by shortening 44 Spl. and turning a few thousandths off the rim diameter. I'm shooting a 200 gr. Lee bullet that is the same as I shoot in my Uberti Schofield in 44-40. I was pleasantly surprised at the accuracy I was able to achieve with both revolvers, the '72 Colt in particular. The Schofield would shoot better if the sights weren't garbage....even after I worked them over so I could see the blade in the notch.

A large part of the character "Jose Wales" was inspired by a man who was from only about 10 miles south of where I live and, of course Hollywood took its liberties. His name was Bill Wilson. The yankees did not kill his wife and family but they did start the feud and Wilson became a horse thief/renegade. I used to work with his great, great grandson who still owns a part of the family farm. His name is also Bill Wilson and after he retired he wrote a small book about and began reenacting his ancestor.

If you pay attention, near the last of the movie, when the last fight is over and Jose is standing there bleeding and...I can't remember the bounty hunters name but, he says, "isn't that right Mr. Wilson." An Jose answers with that droll, "reckon so."

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DarylS
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: sharps4590]
      #385934 - 22/07/24 12:12 PM

Tks. I can now visualize Jose replacing the cylinder of a Rem. 58 with a loaded and capped one. He must have practised that a bit. Well done.
Interesting history lesson.
Seems to me, Jose just called the fellow, "Red Legs". I dont remember the boy's name.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: DarylS]
      #385937 - 22/07/24 06:16 PM

Thanks gentlemen for the replies. So as guessed the Hollywood pistols using cartridges are either similar looking models or historical inaccuracies.

I can't imagine many actors or directors coping with scenes looking a revolvers cylinder with powder, ball and caps. I watched one Civil War movie where one woman instructed another how to load a muzzle loading. Tip some random amount of powder down the barrel. Put in a ball. Ramrod it down. No wads. Pull the hammer back and you're ready! The cap was obviously too difficult. Probably too dangerous as actors might shoot someone ...

Very information the Josey Wales/Bill Wilson comments. Always amazing t how informative and what personal connections our NE members have. Thanks.

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John aka NitroX

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sharps4590
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385940 - 22/07/24 09:58 PM

The individual charged with bringing in Josey Wales and who said, "isn't that right Mr. Wilson?" was his war time compatriot "Captain Fletcher". There was no first name given. "Captain Terrill" was the commander of the "Red Legs" and who Wales chased down and killed with his own sabre. The Red Legs were the guerrillas who killed Wales family and burned his home. They were a very real organization along the Kansas/Missouri border before and during the Civil War. And, of course Hollyweird took its license representing them.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/articl...-guerrilla-war/

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/red-legs-kansas/

Edited by sharps4590 (22/07/24 10:00 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: sharps4590]
      #385941 - 22/07/24 10:25 PM

I thought the Mr Wilson was one of the townsmen in the bar. The Captain Fletcher was talking to Josey Wales indirectly through the Mr Wilson.

However the name Wilson, may well have been used to "acknowledge" the real story individual.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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sharps4590
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385954 - 23/07/24 04:12 AM

You could well be right and I'm disremembering....or just wishing there was an acknowledgement.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: sharps4590]
      #385980 - 24/07/24 02:16 AM

I don't like the sights on this Uberti. Just dry firing it so far. Maybe in anger this weekend coming.

The rear sight, the rear groove in the hammer looks too small compared to the front sight bar. Of course shouldn't be too hard to file a wider groove. As much as I'm two left hands and thumbs .

The Remington I shot at the range I remember as having better sights.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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sharps4590
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Re: Something new, Uberti Colt Army 1860 .44 BP [Re: NitroX]
      #385984 - 24/07/24 04:43 AM

I have a woodworking vise I lined with 2 layers of harness leather on each jaw. Bolted to my loading bench is the right height for all kinds of work. I clamp the revolver by the frame, cock the hammer and go to work with the needle files. As it isn't disassembled you can check your progress as you go and not go too far or have to reassemble the darn thing a half dozen times.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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