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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Rod4861]
      #364764 - 20/04/22 01:35 AM

Quote:



When you’re in the alders and devils club looking for your shot bear you’ll soon understand why a 30/06 may seem a tad light.




True. I think my .404 is preferable.

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364765 - 20/04/22 01:47 AM

Quote:

Same species. Just different sizes based on the location and sources of food. Armchair expertise.

Can't see why that makes a huge difference for cartridge choice? A .30-06 won't suddenly kill a brown bear? Or was it grizzly?

So many many useful cartridges missed out from the "7", I guess because advertising not paid for them!

A very obvious choice, the Euro 9.3x62. And the American .338/06.




As is often the case.. a LOT of info in these articles are a bit overstated, IMHO.. there is no reason an '06 with the correct bullet and placement won't do the job and do it well.. However, I hunted mine as a offer after I was on a do-it-yourself caribou hunt.. So, borrowed his fathers 375H&H.. grabbed a group of mixed manufacturers ammo out of an old cigar box and went hunting..

IF the bear is wounded and you have to go in after him.. I personally would want as big of a firearm as available.. They are big and nasty.. one hit will and has killed many of individuals.. The guide I was with at the time told me his buddy had gotten killed guiding a client the year before..

I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who have used 7mmRem Mag for them . and '06.. with no issues whatsoever..

Pretty much its all in whatever your comfortable with.. In Africa I feel better with my .416Rems than I do with one of my 458Win's.. each to their own..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (20/04/22 03:59 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364769 - 20/04/22 02:34 AM

I packed a .458 2" for years. 400gr. @ 2,150fps, 350's at 2,296fps or 500's as 2,060fps as I hunted moose in grizzly country. Never saw a grizzly while hunting, yet when out looking for fire starter (paper birch bark) trees, in one morning, I saw 6. Go figure. LOL 2 of those were 1st year cubs, with momma. I was packing my .458 Alaskan that day, didn't have to use it. 400gr. @ 2,400fps.
Go figure.
Now, when I go out into the bush, I pack the '06, or more likely, a 12 bore rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rod4861
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364770 - 20/04/22 08:35 AM

He's my limited experience with Brown bear hunting and even less experience with handguns suitable for brown bear.

I've hunted brown bears on 3 occasions.

The first trip was in the Alaska ranges hunting for a Grizz/inland brown bear.......never saw a bear. Not a single bear in over 16 days hunting. The country was open and I was mainly after a Dall, moose and BG caribou. I carried my R8 in 30/06....Federal premium ammunition loaded with the Nosler 180 partition. I didn't feel underpinned for anything.

My guide carried either a Remington 700 in either 30/06 or 308. He told me that he had shot scores of bears with both the 30/06 and 308 over the last 40 odd years. He only ever hunted in the middle of the state. He had a Ruger Blackhawk which lived in camp. He told me that was what he carried when packing out large loads of meat.

My next trip , also in the Alaska Ranges. Saw outfitter, same location, different guide(Geoff). Saw 2 x bears. One was a sow with cubs the other a mature male....about 6'6". Got to about 120 yards from him. Could have shot him...but he was not what I wanted. That was the first bear that I saw up reasonably close. I was impressed and even more impressed when I saw how fast he could run over tundra and through the bush. Bloody awesome. My guide carried a Colt 1911 in 10mm. Not sure what load. I got the impression that the sidearm was more for use against unruly clients than bears. ha ha....I think.

Next year. different area. Alaska Peninsular...costal brown bear....could see Kodiak Island from the cliffs. Bush was as thick as hell in places...introduced to devil club and alders by the ton. Saw a lot of big bears. Guided by Geoff. This time he carried a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Iron sights. No handgun. I carried my R8 but with the 9.3 x 62 barrel. Norma PH 286 grain factory ammo.

Shot my bear on the side of a mountain at about 60 yards...give or take 10. First shot dropped him and then emptied the mag into him. Stood and watched him for about 10 minutes after the last shot to make sure he was dead. Then we, had to crawl under and through about 50 yards of alders, on the side of a mountain to reach the bear. I could smell him from about 12 feet out. Could smell him before I saw him. When I first saw him I was on my knees.

It was an adventure.

From my limited experience....Grizzly inland brown bears are very impressive and where I hunted the country was more open and shots would have been longer. A 30/06 would be fine. For Costal Brown bears....they are HUGE and very, very impressive. For where I hunted the scrub was like NZ monkey scrub, terrain was steep, shots would generally be closer...under 100 yards. I found the 9.3 x 62 just about perfect.

Also, R8 nah sayers please note, that the magazine did not fall out, the rifle did not jam, there were 4 rounds in the magazine and that the magazine did not need to be removed to replenish.

back on track: both guides said that they had never had to use a handgun on a bear. Saw other guides and US clients packing S&W 500, 454 and .44 magnum....but only when hauling meat and or sitting in camp.

Edited by Rod4861 (20/04/22 12:09 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Rod4861]
      #364782 - 21/04/22 01:24 PM

I had a similar but a bit different experience..

We saw the tracks along a creek coming in from both directions to eat the salmon in one of the deep pools in the creek..SO, we built a tree stand using only ropes vs nails to eliminate noise.. We got into the tree stand around 330PM and around 520 here he come along the creek.. the first time I laid my eyes on him I said HOLY SHIT he is big.. .. when he got broadside I pulled the trigger on the .375H&H.. he dropped and immediately popped back up with a loud roar and biting at the area behind his front let where I hit him.. he started to run off the direction he come.. by then I had another in the chamber and was ready to shoot again when the guide shot with his .458W mag with a muzzle break .. which caused me to loose focus on my shot.. guide missed as he has his scope secured with 2 screws missing but instead was using duct tape .. just as the bear was entering the timber I was able to get another raking shot off into him.. he was hit good twice..

We waited a bit and started walking into the incredibly thick timber with very high grass and foilage..literally could see no further than 10 to 15 feet.. after a bit in the guide whistled to me and pointed to go back out.. once out he told me his buddy got killed the previous year doing the exact same thing.. he suggested we wait until morning and bring another gun with us..which is what we did..

The following morning the guide, the cook and myself walked 3 abreast into the thick cover.. when we got about 25 feet past where we had quit the previous night we found a bed the bear had been laying in.. based on the blood sign, he was facing us when he was laying there.. SO, good idea we turned around that night or it would have certainly gone very western quicly.. ultimately we found him dead about another 100 yards up the creek.. he was using mud to plug his holes.. he as a 9ft squared bear..NOT a monster but not a cub either..

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364783 - 21/04/22 01:25 PM

Although I am NOT a Taurus fan.. here is their version of a bear gun..

https://www.petersenshunting.com/editorial/taurus-raging-hunter-460/455682

--------------------
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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364784 - 21/04/22 06:08 PM

Actually just thinking about it I'd definitely take my 30/06 after one, if he went down in thick cover that wouldn't be a problem as I'd be hunting with a guide.
He would earn his pay going in after it while I sat outside and waited for the all clear.

But back on topic, in what situation would you need a handgun for bear defence?
As near as I could figure I'd only have one around camp or if I was fishing ect.
Any time I was hunting you would presumably have a rifle with you, and even a 308win will out perform any handgun out there.

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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364797 - 22/04/22 02:58 AM

When timber cruising laying out cut blocks or checking timber cut blocks - checking tree planting plots gets an 'inspector' injured or killed, now and then.
Also, when fishing salmon streams, a heavy handgun at the side would feel "encouraging".
Hiking in the bush, a handgun would be nice insurance and lighter & handier than a shotgun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364799 - 22/04/22 03:26 AM

Quote:

When timber cruising laying out cut blocks or checking timber cut blocks - checking tree planting plots gets an 'inspector' injured or killed, now and then.
Also, when fishing salmon streams, a heavy handgun at the side would feel "encouraging".
Hiking in the bush, a handgun would be nice insurance and lighter & handier than a shotgun.




Bowhunting is the biggest reason in my area..or checking fences on a ranch.. or hiking/backpacking to a high mtn summer lake to go fishing.. lots of reasons really.. these are just a few..

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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364804 - 22/04/22 09:58 AM

See aside from the bow hunting and the hiking the odds of encountering a bear in thick country is somewhat less.
That would generally give you more time to be ready, so rate of fire of a handgun is less important then being able to do some serious damage.
That to me makes the 44mag still on the top.
In most cases if I was just checking things ect I'd rather have a rifle or a shotgun.
There's just that much more reassurance with a long gun, no problem at all if you choose to carry a handgun but much as with a rifle carrying the biggest gun you can accurately shoot is still the best choice.
Looking at all the choices out there a Kentucky Ballistics Derringer in 45/70 would be my pick for serious bear defence.
It's a bit like a big bore double rifle for dangerous game, you might only have two shots and a lot of recoil but when your life is on the line that much power will save your life, small, light and absolutely deadly especially in very close quarters.
Although admittedly that's a hell of a lot of recoil for most people in most situations. I just believe that what you hit something with is more important then how many times you hit it.

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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364805 - 22/04/22 12:50 PM

The .45/70 Derringer is a joke, imho. There is no way to get a decent second shot. Takes 2 hands to relocate it in your hand and cock it for the second shot.
Has anyone been able to chronograph one? I've not heard of that.
I was able to 'make' the 7 yard, 12 shots in 10 seconds with my 4" .44 Mag. with full power loads using 275gr. SWC's @ just over 1,210fps - all 10's, BTW on a B27 target.

Much better in my opinion than a 2shot derringer.

The only ctg. Derringer I have fired was a .45 Colt with full power 250gr. driven by 6.6gr. (I think was the load) of bullseye. They would likely make 500, maybe 600fps at the most, I expect from the 1" of actual bl. ahead of the ctg. mouth. The recoil stood the little gun straight up in my hand. It then takes 2 hands to get it back into your grip and cock it - oops - too late, bear's gotcha.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364808 - 22/04/22 02:54 PM

Quote:


I was able to 'make' the 7 yard, 12 shots in 10 seconds with my 4" .44 Mag. with full power loads using 275gr. SWC's @ just over 1,210fps - all 10's, BTW on a B27 target.




Pretty impressive if including a reload.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364809 - 22/04/22 03:01 PM

Quote:


He would earn his pay going in after it while I sat outside and waited for the all clear.




While any good guide or PH will tell the client to stay out and back, it's definitely not what I would plan for ie some stranger saving your life.

If using a single shot I would want to be very familiar with it, especially fast reloads.

The guys in the old days used them. Some BGRC shooters such as Alex Beer used single shots to do very well in rapid fire, 8 shot comps, best competed on with a bolt action.

Similar to a double after two shots, same thing.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364810 - 22/04/22 03:10 PM

Quote:


That would generally give you more time to be ready ...




True. But speaking from my extensive armchair expertise, I think one thing lacking in bear attacks is time to be ready. I have read where people have had a handgun, but were mailed or killed because the firearm was stowed away in a backpack nothing easy reach. Where legal, a holster on a belt sounds the best place.

I think in a camp on the belt is also a good place.

With all of this, I imagine the probability is very low of an attack. But that is small comfort of teeth are in you, or claws ripping.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364812 - 22/04/22 03:15 PM

How does the good old .45 ACP 1911s go?

Not on paper, bearlike penetration and "knockdown"?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364815 - 22/04/22 04:11 PM

Quote:

The .45/70 Derringer is a joke, imho. There is no way to get a decent second shot. Takes 2 hands to relocate it in your hand and cock it for the second shot.
Has anyone been able to chronograph one? I've not heard of that.
I was able to 'make' the 7 yard, 12 shots in 10 seconds with my 4" .44 Mag. with full power loads using 275gr. SWC's @ just over 1,210fps - all 10's, BTW on a B27 target.

Much better in my opinion than a 2shot derringer.

The only ctg. Derringer I have fired was a .45 Colt with full power 250gr. driven by 6.6gr. (I think was the load) of bullseye. They would likely make 500, maybe 600fps at the most, I expect from the 1" of actual bl. ahead of the ctg. mouth. The recoil stood the little gun straight up in my hand. It then takes 2 hands to get it back into your grip and cock it - oops - too late, bear's gotcha. [/quote


Agree on all accounts..the Derringer is a pos...

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364816 - 22/04/22 04:21 PM

The Derringer is more of a women's thigh pistol and a bar room brawling piece. Last ditch defence against a mugger at extreme close range.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364817 - 22/04/22 04:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:


That would generally give you more time to be ready ...




True. But speaking from my extensive armchair expertise, I think one thing lacking in bear attacks is time to be ready. I have read where people have had a handgun, but were mailed or killed because the firearm was stowed away in a backpack nothing easy reach. Where legal, a holster on a belt sounds the best place.

I think in a camp on the belt is also a good place.

With all of this, I imagine the probability is very low of an attack. But that is small comfort of teeth are in you, or claws ripping.




See that makes no sense to me, if you have a loaded handgun for protection then it needs to be holstered, putting it in a bag or something like that, even a pocket would be just plain crazy.
If you can't carry it on your belt then take a long gun even if it is more a pain in the rear if carrying a pistol isn't legal in the area your in.
Then again there's, plenty of concealed carry bags and clothing that you could use too if a holster wasn't an option.

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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364825 - 22/04/22 10:15 PM

For holsters..this is one popular option..

https://gunfightersinc.com/kenai-chest-holster/

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364833 - 23/04/22 02:34 AM

Quote:

For holsters..this is one popular option..

https://gunfightersinc.com/kenai-chest-holster/




Yes indeed. Here, for those lucky enough to get the carry permit, the gun had to be worn on the outside in a holster.

as tot he .45 ACP John. I shot 2 large black bears with mine, first was with 230gr. FMJ @ 850fps,. side head shot- dead right there.
Second was a 260gr. Speer HP, driven by 12.0gr. W630 powder made 960fps in my 5" Wilson barrel. Side shot through both lungs (missed the shoulder).
The bear walked some 30 yards, collapsed slid down a short incline (embankment) into a ditch - dead.
I am sure a heavy FN hard cast @ 950fps or so would handle a grizzly just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364843 - 23/04/22 07:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For holsters..this is one popular option..

https://gunfightersinc.com/kenai-chest-holster/




Yes indeed. Here, for those lucky enough to get the carry permit, the gun had to be worn on the outside in a holster.

as tot he .45 ACP John. I shot 2 large black bears with mine, first was with 230gr. FMJ @ 850fps,. side head shot- dead right there.
Second was a 260gr. Speer HP, driven by 12.0gr. W630 powder made 960fps in my 5" Wilson barrel. Side shot through both lungs (missed the shoulder).
The bear walked some 30 yards, collapsed slid down a short incline (embankment) into a ditch - dead.
I am sure a heavy FN hard cast @ 950fps or so would handle a grizzly just fine.




Agree-- no doubt the hard cast would do the job out of a 45acp..

I have 2 of those holsters.. wear one when I go fishing in Alaska often.. OF when I go hiking with my family.. or when I sneak over and visit the married neighbor lady..

KIDDING.. Friday Humor...

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364922 - 26/04/22 05:43 PM

https://fb.watch/cDmUu_SQB6/

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364942 - 27/04/22 02:37 AM

Fairly big hide. Looked a lot larger than when it was moving. Bear size is really difficult to judge when they are standing or running in low brush.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Jim_C
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #365130 - 02/05/22 02:40 AM

Quote:

How does the good old .45 ACP 1911s go?

Not on paper, bearlike penetration and "knockdown"?




At contact distance, I had 6 or 7 (of 8) hot-loaded 45 acp rounds go through the body of a roughly 300# black bear. No complaints about the performance of the round, or the bullets, but cleaning the pistol was an absolute PITA.


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Rule303
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Jim_C]
      #365140 - 02/05/22 09:29 AM

I have not had time to read all in this thread will come back to it. Just a point or two on Semi V revolver. Wheel guns do fuck up. I have had a couple of S&W in 38 fail to fire, fail to index correctly. Might have been maintenance, I don't know. Also one test run by a shooting magazine had numerous semi autos and one S&W. They claim the Revolver did not stuff up but it did. A fail to fire for any reason was a stuff up. In this case it was due to grit slowing the hammer down to the extent it did not strike the primer hard enough. The 3 that had no failures, Colt 1911, Browning Hi Power and Glock. They did not have a CZ75 in the test.

To me the big advantage of the wheel gun is, fail to fire pull the trigger again and should fire do not need to rack it.


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