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Ripp
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Is the 40 S&W DEAD???
      #307094 - 01/11/17 12:35 AM

Very interesting article/info...

http://www.firearmsnews.com/ammo/is-40-sw-dead/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ripp]
      #307100 - 01/11/17 02:24 AM

Increasing number of females and nancy boys in the FBI and law enforcement = need to scew the methodology to justify smaller, lighter and less recoiling handguns and cartridges. The whole examination of pathology, medical practictioners results as a justification to me read as just so much more waffle.

Also a lighter cartridge means less training and less practice is needed for less dollars of expenditure. Justifying under training and less than proper volumes of practice.

My cynical mind.

BTW if you take a .38 or 9mm "super duper modern" bullet and compare it to a .40 or .45 "super duper modern" bullet at a similar velocity, the larger calibre MUST be more effective.

But it seems only the super duper modern 9mm bullets have improved if you take the gist of the article and justification.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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lancaster
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: NitroX]
      #307101 - 01/11/17 03:08 AM

I think its dead, in europe it never realy start to breathe

The 9 mm Parabellum aka Patrone 08, 9 mm Luger, 9x19 NATO is in service for 109 years now and it will be there when everyone here watching the carrots from below

remember the noise the gun magazines make about it in the early 1990s. all were happy, gun magazine had something to write about and gun industry had some new stuff for sale even every maker of submachine guns offer the model in 40 S&W.
dont know if they ever made a deal with 40 S&W submachines.

buy yourself a good parabellum pistol

--------------------
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.
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Daryl_S
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: lancaster]
      #307102 - 01/11/17 03:26 AM

There are almost as many .40 S&W being shot at our local range, as 9mm.


If I were to buy another auto - it would be a 1911 - in .45ACP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: lancaster]
      #307109 - 01/11/17 04:28 AM

Quote:

I think its dead, in europe it never realy start to breathe

The 9 mm Parabellum aka Patrone 08, 9 mm Luger, 9x19 NATO is in service for 109 years now and it will be there when everyone here watching the carrots from below

remember the noise the gun magazines make about it in the early 1990s. all were happy, gun magazine had something to write about and gun industry had some new stuff for sale even every maker of submachine guns offer the model in 40 S&W.
dont know if they ever made a deal with 40 S&W submachines.

by yourself a good parabellum pistol




I agree with the above..

As to effectiveness of the 9mm..a friend of mine was back in town last week.currently traveling the world with one of the SEAL teams..I asked him what he/they were currently using..he also stated the 9mm...reason was more rounds per magazine and less weight when carrying a lot of ammo for distance.. ..

Train here in town with a former SEAL team 1 instructor on handgun..also a 9mm fan...

Think one of the most striking comments on this article that is NONE caliber related:

“LEOs miss between 70–80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident.”

Logic would seem to dictate if this is true, more rounds available would be better, IMHO..apparently in high stress situations accuracy goes out the window...along with not enough range time apparently..

Personally, I carry and shoot all of the above..but 99% of the time I have a S&W Shield on me in 9mm --without the safety feature...While staying in my hotel rooms traveling, a Glock model 17 or 19..with 2 or 3-- 30 round mags...figure that will at a minimum give me a fighting chance to get out of the building..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/11/17 04:56 AM)


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Rell
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ripp]
      #307114 - 01/11/17 06:25 AM

The 40 S&W should be dead. Not a 10mm, not a 45 ACP and a premium 9mm is 99% as effective with less snappy recoil and more rounds in the mag.

Ripp you are one twisted paranoid dude. Now I feel like I am less cracked with my H&K P7and 7 or 8 mags in the messenger bag. Don’t forget the surefire, emerson and a trauma kit!

Got to love our community.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Rell]
      #307124 - 01/11/17 11:20 AM

All I can legally have handy is my tanto, wakizashi, and katana - all sharp - kept that way.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #307135 - 01/11/17 07:02 PM

Quote:

All I can legally have handy is my tanto, wakizashi, and katana - all sharp - kept that way.




I reckon we could carry a nail file and nail clippers ....

Yep even my trusty leatherman could get me in trouble .

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Rell]
      #307149 - 02/11/17 12:36 AM

Quote:

The 40 S&W should be dead. Not a 10mm, not a 45 ACP and a premium 9mm is 99% as effective with less snappy recoil and more rounds in the mag.

Ripp you are one twisted paranoid dude. Now I feel like I am less cracked with my H&K P7and 7 or 8 mags in the messenger bag. Don’t forget the surefire, emerson and a trauma kit!

Got to love our community.




I resemble that comment..

Yes, have a surefire with the dna collector bezel.. and trauma kit...

Don't think of myself as much as paranoid as just being prepared...perfect case in point, look at what happened again yesterday in NYC...never know anymore when one of those goat rapers decide to get the call from whomever to go wild killing more innocents..

Maybe I am incorrect but I do believe they will have less success over here than in other parts of the world in lieu of the fact there are millions of concealed carry holders around this nation. That number is growing every year..so hopefully the next time one of these pos go wild, someone will be near with a cc permit and dispatch him quickly..2 to the body, 1 to the head.. done..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DoubleD
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ripp]
      #307150 - 02/11/17 12:39 AM

40 S&W dead, not hardly.

http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-the-most-popular-calibers-in-the-us/

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DD, Ret.


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Maxim
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #307153 - 02/11/17 06:26 AM

In my career I was a witness to the change from .36 SPL revolver to the Glock 22 .40. The .38's at the time were loaded with 158 RN lead. Carried an a good day with 12 extra rounds in the loose dump pouch. With a 2" Smith I always felt pretty under powered and under ammo'ed (if that is a word). The .40 resulted in 4x's the ammo load and 2 1/2 x's available in the weapon. The well worn snap break revolver holsters were replaced by a triple retention holster. You could hang from the ceiling by them unless, with proper training you could could release easily. Qualification with the Glocks was intense and conducted over several days with 800 rounds fired per student. Hit factor really did not change much with males or females but the pebble finish on Gen 1 Glocks over several days of dry fire and live fire resulted in many abraded webs of the hand. Yes, the .40 Glocks do recoil much more than the revolvers ever would. The transition from 'pull and go' of a revolver to Glocks was fairly smooth, only the reloading procedure for some with years of muscle memory on the revolver took some time. The service rounds were hollow points. Reliability was typical Glock......gobbled anything and everything.

About 35 years ago, before .40 and Glocks, I participated in tests very similar to the FBI tests. Vehicle window glass, drywall, heavy clothing, car doors, plywood, and a bunch of ballistic gel. Most calibers were .38 Spl, 9mm. 45 Acp. As with the FBI test the 12" penetration was viewed as the standard. In the end I was shocked as to how many hollow points would plug with the first medium it struck and behaved the same as a full jacketed ball round. Windshield glass angled (as in the article) was brutal on all handgun rounds and some would pass through while others would not. If they did, they would plug with glass. Heavy clothing would plug the cavities, even blue jean material could prevent expansion. When fired into the gel directly with no medium in front, many would result in those beautiful expansion petals as expected.
I concede that bullet design had gone forward and perhaps effectiveness is better with rounds such as the Barnes TAC-XPs.

Edited by Maxim (02/11/17 06:27 AM)


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Rell
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Maxim]
      #307157 - 02/11/17 10:41 AM

I actually work very close to where the attack happened. No way to get a CC permit in Manhattan and if you did I suspect you would get shot by the cops erroniously. I do alway have my Emerson CQB mini and the Sure Fire with the strike bezel on me in the city. That and a condition yellow mentality are all I got.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Ripp
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Maxim]
      #307158 - 02/11/17 10:42 AM

Found this on line..interesting..

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/8/9/bullet-penetration-and-expansion/


Info on the 10mm..

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2017/10/27/10mm-auto-whats-the-big-deal/

FBI Ammunition Protocol
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol.html

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (02/11/17 12:00 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ripp]
      #307172 - 02/11/17 08:44 PM

Just some observations.
First up I am a 40cal fan.

SEALS and 9mm makes sense. Universal military round so can get ammo anywhere in the world and if they really need stopping power then that's what their rifle/grenade launchers are for.

LEO's missing bad guys in gun fights. It is not so much range time they need it is simmunition in scenario based training they need. You can be the best target shooter in the world and the worst in a real world gun situation. They need to learn to control their emotions and reactions, many ,ore would then have better hit ratios regardless of what calibre they are shooting.


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Rule303]
      #307189 - 03/11/17 12:17 PM

In my neck of the woods it’s at least on life support. Virtually no one is buying 40s anymore and they are tough to sell.

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Rell
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #307207 - 04/11/17 04:57 AM

Another thought. One of the beauties of the 45ACP is that it is still very lethal with cheap 230gr. ball ammo. I carry Hornady Critical Defense ammo in it but I doubt I have more then a couple hundred rounds of it at any point and time. I can switch to ball and still be well armed.

My 9mm carry gun is a H&K P7 loaded with Hornady Critical Duty ammo. I might have 4-5 boxes on hand. If I run out I have 100,000 target loads that candidly I might be better off throwing at a bad guy ....

The 40 is probably in the middle? How does it fair with target loads in a pinch?

I think NATO 9mm Ball loaded by Winchester is actually +P, am I wrong on that as well?

--------------------
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Grenadier
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #307209 - 04/11/17 05:40 AM

Quote:

40 S&W dead, not hardly. http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-the-most-popular-calibers-in-the-us/


DD, that data is from " Lucky Gunner’s 2013 ammunition sales". It's already four years old!

Regardless, the majority of .40 users are law enforcement and related personnel. US law enforcement follows on the heels of the FBI in nearly everything. When the FBI went to .40s most law enforcement personnel followed. Now that the FBI is going back to 9mm, you will begin to see the bulk of law enforcement return to 9mm. It's just a matter of time and it will leave the .40 an esoteric round.

The main reason the US military went to 9mm in the 1980s was because of various NATO Standardization Agreements (STANAG). It was long overdue compliance to a longstanding agreement but also a concession to get NATO to adopt and standardize the 5.56mm. It had nothing to do with ballistic tests, field experience, or cost. Yes, those were looked at but they had no impact in making the switch. The switch did coincide with a dynamic push to "feminize" the ranks and we wondered if the timing was more than a coincidence, but that was purely speculation. Units using .45s were against turning them in but had to comply with the DoD directive, plain and simple.

US Special Operations forces, of various flavors, are often allowed to use non-standard weapons and equipment. Because of that, many low profile units in the military never transitioned, or never fully transitioned, to 9mm from .45 ACP. A few handguns firing different calibers were used for specialized applications, but none of the SPECOPS units switched to .40 when it came along. If the .40 had offered any real advantage over .45 ACP then it would have been adopted. That didn't happen, and for good reason. In military FMJ loadings, the smaller frontal area of the 9mm helps make it a better penetrator than the .45 but the larger frontal area of the .45 helps make it a better incapacitator than the 9mm. Interestingly, the .45 has been seeing increasing use in the military. Far more .45 ACP pistols are in US Army and USMC inventories today than in the 1990's and the trend continues.

Civilian loads can be tailored for more or less penetration and more or less expansion. But if you are looking to make a small hole for a long way then you will never be able to make a hole from a .45 bullet as small as you can make it with a 9mm bullet. Conversely, if you are looking to make a big hole for a limited depth, like the thickness of the human body, you will never get a 9mm bullet to expand to greater diameter than you can make a .45 caliber bullet expand.

So, I can understand how the FBI can subject different calibers to various tests that weigh barrier penetration against the ability to inflict debilitating wounds and end up determining a 9mm is their best all around, best compromise, round. I wonder, though, what percentage of FBI, police, and civilian defense shootings are against people behind barriers. My gut feeling is that the overwhelming majority of those shootings are made in face-to-face encounters against exposed assailants.

Just look at the ammunition your local PD carries - BIG hollow-points designed for expansion, not barrier penetration. They want to make as big a hole as possible in a human body.



That's telling and that's why I carry a .45.


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lancaster
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Grenadier]
      #307212 - 04/11/17 06:37 AM

"The main reason the US military went to 9mm in the 1980s was because of various NATO Standardization Agreements (STANAG). It was long overdue compliance to a longstanding agreement but also a concession to get NATO to adopt and standardize the 5.56mm. It had nothing to do with ballistic tests, field experience, or cost. Yes, those were looked at but they had no impact in making the switch. The switch did coincide with a dynamic push to "feminize" the ranks and we wondered if the timing was more than a coincidence, but that was purely speculation."

I know you love the 45 ACP but imho its only nostaligia -
the common adoption of the 5,56 was a much bigger step into this direction!

in the end I found a niche for the 40 S&W if you have a Colt Thuer conversion revolver




case here made by lathe turning 44 magnum brass



http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/The%20Making%20of%20the%20Centaure%20Thuer%2020Jun13.htm



http://www.oldammo.com/august06.htm


yesterday I found some cases the very first ever on my indoor range

and if you fill them with black powder and load a .450 diamter lead bullet it must fit into the Colt Thuer conversion cylindern if my measurments are correct.



44 Colt Thuer( 40 S&W case), 40 S&W case, 45 ACP case

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Grenadier
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: lancaster]
      #307215 - 04/11/17 07:58 AM

Quote:

I know you love the 45 ACP but imho its only nostaligia


That is a ludicrous statement and I guarantee not one Special Operations soldier carrying a pistol in .45 ACP would agree with you. I suppose you consider any affinity for the Browning Machine Gun, Cal. .50, M2 and the .50 BMG (12.7×99mm NATO) cartridge "only nostalgia" because that's a 100 year old weapon shooting a 100 year old cartridge.

By the way, the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge predates the .45 ACP by a few years. Using your logic, any love for the 9mm must only be nostalgia.

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Rule303
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Rell]
      #307219 - 04/11/17 09:22 AM

Quote:

Another thought. One of the beauties of the 45ACP is that it is still very lethal with cheap 230gr. ball ammo. I carry Hornady Critical Defense ammo in it but I doubt I have more then a couple hundred rounds of it at any point and time. I can switch to ball and still be well armed.

My 9mm carry gun is a H&K P7 loaded with Hornady Critical Duty ammo. I might have 4-5 boxes on hand. If I run out I have 100,000 target loads that candidly I might be better off throwing at a bad guy ....

The 40 is probably in the middle? How does it fair with target loads in a pinch?

I think NATO 9mm Ball loaded by Winchester is actually +P, am I wrong on that as well?




Another misnomer. 45 Ball or any pistol calibre in ball is a very poor stopper. The least lethal of all available ammo types. People have been recorded walking around for hours with up to 6 45 cal ball in them. Not so with soft points or hollow points.


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Postman
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Rule303]
      #307229 - 04/11/17 10:28 PM

How about a. .45ACP using 200 grain hard cast SWC over 4.8 grains of bullseye? Very controllable, makes “major” power factor, functions perfectly, and leaves a big hole without any dependency on the voodoo magic of “expansion”.

I know, I know: whenever I fire my .45, my vagina hurts.

A full size 1911 is a good sized pistol without argument. There are lots of 9mm pistols that are somewhat smaller and a little lighter with advantages catering to the unwashed masses with marginal interest in shooting.

Consider this:

The super high degree of shooting skills that 95% of LEOs possess (sarcasm) can make use of the extra fire power of the typical 9mm pistol for their documented spray and pray approach to shooting under pressure. The SWAT teams as well as the coppers who are also sport shooters are a bit of an exception on this one..... those guys know how to shoot because they tend to love shooting, therefore practice lots. The LEOs that are in the profession because of the love of solving crime are not necessarily driven by a love of shooting. If you’re not passionate about something, you’ll never be truly good at it. In this case, the gun is more of an extra weight on the equipment belt, like the flashlight, folding knife, cuffs, and radio, so arm them with something that is light and easier to shoot, even though it may be more ineffective at stopping an assailant. Let’s face it, most LEOs never fire their pistol in the line of duty, but if the need does arise, ANY pistol is better than no pistol at all in a tough situation where one may be required to shoot to save one’s life.

Edited by Postman (05/11/17 11:19 PM)


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Ash
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Postman]
      #307373 - 07/11/17 01:38 PM

.40 S&W in a Glock 22 is what the police carry here. I think it's a fine choice. 15 rounds in the mag, mild recoil, bit more oomph/size than the 9mm. What's not to love?

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Ripp
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ash]
      #307376 - 07/11/17 02:51 PM

Quote:

.40 S&W in a Glock 22 is what the police carry here. I think it's a fine choice. 15 rounds in the mag, mild recoil, bit more oomph/size than the 9mm. What's not to love?






I absolutely feel the .45 and 40 have merit as does 9mm...for me one of the clinchers is if the SEALS are using it, it can't be too bad and must be doing its job..I would ask osama for a reference but he doesn't seem to be answering his phone lately..

One of the issues I have with the .45 is the number of shots I will have on me, especially concealed..in today's world I feel even more so than in years past, its not that uncommon to have multiple attackers..or, you turn down the wrong street some night and a bunch of "enlightened" ones feel they are being treated unjustly so they decide to start burning stores and tourching cars..beating the crap out of those in the area..in that scenario especially, I'll take 15 or17 rounds over 8 every time..each to their own, but that would be my choice..and yes, I know we live and die by the choices we make, I feel comfortable with mine..


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: Ripp]
      #307392 - 07/11/17 08:35 PM

Is ???? dead?

Is really just saying, is something no lomger effective to flog and market with BS to encourage consumers to buy more of it. Or add a NEW gun to do something, your other 12 similar ones already does.

So GET THAT NEW AND VASTLY MORE EFFECTIVE 9MM NOW. Because a new one, will work better than your old 9mm.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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ducmarc
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Re: Is the 40 S&W DEAD??? [Re: NitroX]
      #307450 - 08/11/17 11:16 AM

just some observations.first seals would be effective even with 22 rimfires, i believe the feller that shot the hood in the gunshop was using a 45 that guy dropped like a sack of potatos . a one shot stop.if u want to burn a hole in something us a tokarev. ask any german on the western front how his 9mm held up.maybe no one in leo can hit anything cuz u carry too much ammo. i bet 6 rounds of 357 in cool hands trumps 14 in barneys hands, my 1911 runs like a sewing machine my glock is not as smooth, the weaver stance may not be the way to shoot.allow everyone in leo to carry what they want.my 130lb daughter has never complained about the recoil or muzzle rise in any gun i hand her. i beleive its all perception. if u don't like to shoot don't be a cop,push papers somewhere.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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