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szihn
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #111047 - 04/08/08 01:54 PM

What city is that NE450No2?

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Marrakai
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: szihn]
      #111062 - 04/08/08 07:59 PM

Quote:

move to Wyoming...We have on of the lowest rates of violent crime in the nation, and the world.



Steve:
Our murder rate in Australia is a tad lower than yours. You had 9 murders in Wyoming in 2006, which equals 1.75 per 100,000. In Australia we had 1.73 per 100,000 nation-wide (including our big cities).

Here, concealed carry other than for security or specialised employment reasons is illegal in all states, and handgun ownership is very strictly controlled (ie. minimum 12 attendances per year at pistol clubs, probation periods, etc). Nobody carries.

...so how do we explain that!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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szihn
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #111066 - 04/08/08 10:48 PM

Well, if those statistics are true, (I know it is for Wyoming. We have about 500,000 people state wide, and we had 5 murders this year. Wyoming is just a little smaller then Germany in land mass) I would have to say that those of us here in Wyoming can own and carry handguns and your people can't, so we have more freedom, yet you still have about the same murder rate.
Your people are subjugated more then ours and it didn't help you a bit did it?

History shows us that most people will defend their laws even when those laws are bad rather than take responsibility for being part of the problem, so they don't have to be part of the solution.
It’s easier that way, and when it gets too oppressive, they then blame someone in their past, rather then shoulder the responsibility that’s theirs to carry.
It’s no different here. See how our economy is about to fail?

That’s because most Americans think “it’s someone else's problem” and “someone ought to fix it”
But try to get them to involve themselves (not just vote, but do something . Like remove their money from banks, join a tax movement, boycott a globalist agenda and so on.........and they say they can’t . It’s too much work and too risky
Well, all rights have to be exercised against the force that would oppose those rights, and it’s been that way for 6000 years of recorded history.
We have more freedoms then you, but I believe that’s going to change in the next 2 months, because the average American is waiting for someone else to “do something’
The wait is almost over I think. I hope I am wrong, but I don’t think so.


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9.3x57
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #111067 - 04/08/08 10:51 PM

Quote:

...so how do we explain that!




Here's my opinion. Take it for what it is...

Gun ownership does not and never has been an "only cause" of low crime, tho it can contribute to low crime. Many areas of the world where gun ownership is high there exists high crime and/or gun violence also.

For Americans, gun ownership as a "deterrent to crime" is something of a side street on the main highway laid out by the Constitution.

Gun ownership as laid out in that document is expressed to be a RIGHT. This is not contingent upon its utility as a DETERRENT, tho in some cases it is a deterrent.

Robbing a population of a right may have some short term utility but it is always unjust. In the case of Australia, the robbing of the right may not even appear to have ANY social repercussions because of the lack of crime in the first place, guns neither causing all crime nor stopping all crime. Point being that in a homogenous society with low crime, the mere addition of guns does not necessarily create crime. The other side of the coin is true, too. In high crime areas, removing all guns does not stop crime.

One of the main reasons Australia has such low crime is that it has a very homogenous population, culturally speaking. The Australians having been quite successful at marginalizing and/or effecting genocide on their indigenous populations and diversity of population groups representing competing values is low compared to other nations such as the USA where cultural diversity and resultant competition between highly diverse groups boggles many visitors' and social anthropologists' minds. Such success is also represented in areas of the USA; Wyoming for example.

Having grown up on the East Coast and travelled and/or lived in most of the US States, I wonder why our crime rate isn't higher than it is.

An interesting study will be, say, Norway, where a homogenous population is now being opened to relatively large numbers of foreign immigrants with competing ideals, goals, values. Just watch the crime rate there and in 20 years let's have this chat again...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111073 - 05/08/08 12:34 AM

No reason to carry here - we get the odd stabbing - usually a native stabbing her husband when intoxicated and the drug conflicts between the bikers and East Indians for control have pretty much disappeared - the Indians involved, that is. The bikers are still here, mostly invisible - might have a murder a year but knife orchestrated, usually. Town of 90,000. Pretty quiet.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: DarylS]
      #111076 - 05/08/08 12:55 AM

What is the law regarding the use of deadly force in the various countries represented here?

Canada, Australia, UK, etc...?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Marrakai
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: DarylS]
      #111078 - 05/08/08 01:12 AM

Interesting comments from you guys.

"Australians...effecting genocide on their indigenous populations"
Man! From what we learn here, everyone takes a back seat to the US in this regard. 'Wounded Knee' and all that.

Of course we don't have a large endemic ex-pat African population, nor the historic racial intolerance for that ethnic group that would appear to be a contributing factor to the high rates of violent crime in the US today.

You might think that Australians are 'subjugated' and have lost their freedom, but that is complete BS. The fact that Americans need a concealed firearm to feel safe suggests that they lost their true freedom long ago, ie the freedom to go anywhere and do anything without feeling threatened. Freedom from the fear of assault or murder. The freedom to trust others. The freedom to just relax!

BC sound very nice, Daryl, but the cold climate wouldn't suit me!


Look, for the purposes of this thread, you'll just have to ignore us Aussies. We can own as many firearms as we like. We can go hunting whenever we like, there is no bag limit on buffalo and boar, no tags, no open season, no costs other than a tank of fuel and a counter-meal at the pub on the way home. My mates and I can take 7 ducks and seven geese every day of the four-month waterfowl season, at any of the 5 public hunting reserves within 40 minutes of our homes, or on private property of course.

I can walk down any street in my fair city at any time of the day or night without a care in the world.

...and I don't need concealed carry!

If that's 'subjugation', I surrender!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylS
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #111079 - 05/08/08 01:25 AM

9.3 - you may use only "as much force as is necessary to prevent the continuation of the offense". Used to be Section 25 of the Canadian Criminal Code.
: Thus, if deadly force is being used against you, you may use deadly force to stop or prevent it.
: Marrakai - isn't cold here as we're only 1/2 way up the Province - there's another 500 miles of roads North of us. It's cold up there, though. I've been moose hunting at minus 56C. That was a mite chilly. One must dress for the weather. When it gets hot enough that you don't need a light jacket or sweater, it's too hot. Anything over about 18C (about 65F) is too warm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #111080 - 05/08/08 01:29 AM

Quote:

Interesting comments from you guys.

"Australians...effecting genocide on their indigenous populations"
Man! From what we learn here, everyone takes a back seat to the US in this regard. 'Wounded Knee' and all that.

My point isn't to say that genocide didn't occur in the USA. THAT goes without stating, tho the current state of affairs among the indigenous poulations is that they receive staggering amounts of benefits not offered to other population groups.

My point was that in Australia, the whites have been very successful in marginalizing the indigenous population so they are not a threat. Those populations are, of course, not large and never were, so they are less important probably than the fact that mass immigration from all four winds has not been the experience of Australia. It has been in the USA.


You might think that Australians are 'subjugated' and have lost their rights, but that is complete BS.

Marrakai, no argument about the need, just a statement of fact; where a population has had the right to arms taken away, a right has been abridged. That you can hunt where you like is nice but not the point.

...and I don't need concealed carry!

THAT is a blessing and one I hope your children and grandchildren etc can assert as well. You guys have done a lot of good in your country, and have established a, on the whole, wonderful society that has many things to teach us Americans. The abridgement of a right that is not at present needed notwithstanding.






--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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bigmaxx
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #111083 - 05/08/08 02:02 AM

It is destined to only get worse. The high gas prices, food prices, drugs like methamphetamine, cocaine, inflation, poverty, political unrest. Sounds like Zimbabwe doesnt it. I was talking about Kentucky though. I should add ammo prices to the list!

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One day at a time...


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EricD
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #111097 - 05/08/08 05:28 AM

In a study published a few years ago by the "Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy", they found that Norway has 0.81 murders per 100.000, while Luxembourg for example has 9.01 murders per 100.000. What makes this interesting is that Norway has 36000 gun owners per 100.000, while Luxembourg basically has none!

Bare in mind that it is illegal to carry or use guns for personal protection here, but what the report showed was that a high number of legal guns in the population has nothing to do with creating more violent crime. Since most criminals have illegal guns.

FWIW, the report said that the US has 5,6 murders nationwide per 100.000, which was a significant decrease from the previous 15 years, where the number (nationwide) was as high as 10 per 100.000!

Russia on the otherhand has about 4000 gunowners per 100.000, yet has 20.54 murders per 100.000!

It also showed that a few years ago when there was apparently an increase in US states that allowed concealed carry, the number of violent crimes and murders decreased significantly.


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EricD
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111099 - 05/08/08 05:44 AM

Quote:


An interesting study will be, say, Norway, where a homogenous population is now being opened to relatively large numbers of foreign immigrants with competing ideals, goals, values. Just watch the crime rate there and in 20 years let's have this chat again...




Despite the current, rather low numbers of violent crime and murders (as mentioned in the above post), I am unfortunately 100% sure that your prediction will be correct. We are seeing signs of it already...

What makes this doubly irritating is that our buraucrats are working hard at this very moment to constrict legal gun ownership as much as possible (and their goal is undoubtedly to eliminate ALL civilian gun ownership in the future), as they proclaim they are "battling crime". Despite it being proved as mentioned that legal guns have nothing to do with the level of crime.

Sometimes I wonder if these Norwegian buraucrats are working directly under orders of the Kremlin., trying to turn our nation into the very last Sovjet state...


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EricD
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: EricD]
      #111104 - 05/08/08 06:52 AM

.

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hoppdoc
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: EricD]
      #111113 - 05/08/08 10:06 AM

I guess I am not that (?sp)adventurous--it would seems an unnecessary and imprudent risk to go into unstable areas or areas of civil unrest-- seems illogical to me.

If you are comfortable with those risks-great!!I would agree your wits are more important than any firearm you can carry.But there may come a time when no matter how sharp you are you may have no option except violence. It happens--

As for me,if I can't have a signifigant degree of security in some fashion--no, I won't go there and use my "wits" to survive. Why take the risk? For what purpose? A big white guy like me in Africa stands out like a sore thumb and attracts way to much attention.Guess I always want a legal trump card!!

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (05/08/08 10:29 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: EricD]
      #111116 - 05/08/08 10:36 AM

Quote:

A question; facing the potential dangers that can be encountered when traveling alone in some regions of Africa (or other not quite peaceful 3rd world countries found elsewhere), without the help of a local PH/guide/etc, and without knowing anyone else in the countries, would the gentlemen here who insist on carrying a concealed firearm prefer to stay at home, since they couldn't bring their sidearm, or leave the sidearm back in the US, using their wits to try to survive?




Erik, all interesting posts.

I have not covered the Continent from top to bottom as you have, but like you, most of the thousands of miles of travel I have spent on the ground in Africa I have covered unarmed. Yes, I would do so again.

Unlike you and unfortunately, I did spend 3 days under arrest in then-Zaire, now Congo in what was an unpleasant situation that could have been far worse...if I had been armed. Also, due to the Christian missionary work I was involved in from time to time, the decision we had made was that we would not resist if attacked or otherwise persecuted for our work and/or beliefs.

A few more points:

First is that I assert that the right to be armed is one a government should not prevent its citizens from exercising whether they need it or not. A right taken away when it is not needed will not be there to exercise when it is needed.

Second is that TRAVEL is much different than LIVING in an area. When you travel you take a risk, albeit possibly high, but for a limited duration. Living in an area of high crime is a different circumstance, and highlights my last point:

The threats you and I have experienced in travel almost all would have been exacerbated by our being armed. The threats experienced by Hoppdoc may or may not be exacerbated by being armed, but by carrying a weapon concealed, for the most part his armed status will not be known unless he chooses to make it so. He can of course always live by his wits, and must, armed or not. But by being armed he has recourse to a solution the unarmed man does not possess.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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hoppdoc
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #111160 - 05/08/08 09:00 PM

Marrakai--

Apples and Oranges--

Plus not using a right doesn't mean not needing a right.

Our respective "crime" populations are entirely different.
See who populates the jails.65% of the inmates while only 25% of the population.And getting WORSE.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm

If you look at the majority of of violent crime in the states we have created our own monster by entitlement programs. We have fed the beast by promoting and enabling societal disintegration of blacks by welfare entitlement programs.The prominent CATO institute endorses this view as well.

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-wc67.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/religion/bg983.cfm

These programs spent billions of dollars with these people now worse off than before.

Combine the white/black cultures with the black entitlement mentality and you get worsening CRIME with the white man as the "cause".My feeling-Better to have dispursed these monies thru churches if only to behaviorly influence these folks intead of having their "hood mentality".

Marrakai-if you lived here your thoughts would be interesting indeed!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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szihn
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111168 - 05/08/08 11:42 PM

Well politics aside for just one moment, a FACT that's mathematically unavoidable is this;

Any society that give special protection to fools and criminals is going to have an over-abundance of fools and criminals.
That's the USA today.

But that's not the worst part.
Another fact can be stated thus;
Any society that generally allows it's political enemies to hold office is doomed.
That's also the USA today.

By far, most of the elected officials today from your local DAs and Sheriffs to the highest federal offices and all it's judges, are against the clear reading of the constitution.

They tell you that they can prohibit you from traveling, getting married, carrying a gun, working, calling for justice against them, having a church without a license. (which they control) Holding them accountable and liable for their actions is now called subversive.

Mandatory “education” in government schools. Anything that is based in the Bible is criminalized if it’s put forth as a curriculum, but anything from any other religion is put forth as “education”.

They demand you show all the money you earn and where it’s either spent of saved, what you can and can’t do with your own home, and the list goes on and on.

And the average American doesn’t even concern himself with these facts. It’s just “too hard” to get involved, and it ‘might be risky” So we allow out kids to have less liberty then we do, and our grand-kids even less then our kids.
We accept the destruction of the Bill of Rights’ as “just how it is these days”

As I said in my last post, it’s not any different here than any other country where people are told they are free. You should read history from the USSR from the 1830 until the 1990s and see how much they were told they were free there too, and how many of them believed it even in the years of Stalin. Out turn is coming and if the people don’t wake up to these facts it’s going to be too late.

1% of the people think
5% of the people think they think
94% of the people would rather die than think

You think those are harsh words?
Look at the huge numbers of people that back and vote for Obama.
Look at how liberal (communist) John McCain's voting record is.
Look at the fact that most folks here in the USA never vote FOR anyone. They only vote against someone, and therefore can be easily manipulated.

Our founding fathers knew what to do, but our people today think “it’s just too dangerous”
What we lack is organization and courage. the courage has to come first.
The saddest part of all is the fact that no blood needs to be shed at all, if out people would just have courage to stand together for a common and right cause.
But TV and entertainment is more important to them.

Every man that ever did anything of significance in history was someone that didn’t accept that “it’s just the way it is, and I can’t do anything”.
For good or for evil, all the movers of history were men and women that didn’t believe it ‘just has to be this way”
The rest are “sheep“. Some believe they are “thinking sheep”, but still sheep none the less.


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hoppdoc
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: szihn]
      #111198 - 06/08/08 10:24 AM

I agree with szihn-

Pardon the soapbox, but--

It is sad indeed, actually tragic--

America is surely evolving toward a nanny,socialist state. There is progressive micromanipulation of every parameters of peoples lives.We have an increasingly intrusive federal bureaucracy with politicians entrenching themselves.

No individual freedoms are respected except maybe those of criminals. Where did the Fourth Amendment disappear to??

The real problem--THE VOTERS!!! They "feel" but as stated above they DON"T THINK!!

Ask them a real question and you get the "deer in the headlights" look.

They do not care about being informed, just about being coddled and their lives made easier--That is their only goal and this attitude is guaranteed to destroy individual freedoms in this country.

America was once a great nation-God help us when Obama gets elected because we will surely descent into a liberal hell.A democratic legislature will tax and restrict freedoms faster than any court can reverse these insults.

Sad times for true patriots, confused times for the bumfuzzled self centered american voter.They think-"Can I get more entitlements from the largesse of the government??" Will these fools even know what rights the government is taking away from them??

I doubt it--Most are clueless--

How depressing, but patriots must press hard so the clueless might listen--maybe someday, maybe not to late.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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foxfire
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111201 - 06/08/08 11:19 AM

Concealed permit carrying, NRA dues paying "Sheepdog" checking in.

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No good deed goes unpunished


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bigmaxx
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: foxfire]
      #111205 - 06/08/08 12:00 PM

This place is "going to the dogs"....LOL!

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One day at a time...


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Ripp
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: DarylS]
      #111220 - 06/08/08 09:28 PM

Quote:

No reason to carry here - we get the odd stabbing - usually a native stabbing her husband when intoxicated and the drug conflicts between the bikers and East Indians for control have pretty much disappeared - the Indians involved, that is. The bikers are still here, mostly invisible - might have a murder a year but knife orchestrated, usually. Town of 90,000. Pretty quiet.





Darryl,

Read just this past week of some freak in a Greyhound bus --somewhere in Canada..that starting stabbing a guy that was sleeping in his seat next to him..in the story I read., the wacko stabbed the guy 40 to 50 times...bus driver stopped the bus and everyone ran out...when the bus driver and another passenger went back in to see what was going on..the murderer was walking to the front of the bus carrying the passengers head..which he had completely severed...then walked back to the corpse and starting gutting the guy out....

To my knowledge, Canada has very strict gun laws and you can not legally own a handgun??..my thoughts were, as I read that story was, wonder what the outcome would have been had someone in that bus been carrying a handgun?? The innocent passenger might still have been dead..but maybe not..

No area is completely safe...even the small communities have the occassional murders..however much safer as Hoppdoc points out,,than the large metro areas...

BTW, I read that story while having coffee Saturday morning in Sturgis...attending a biker rally..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Ripp]
      #111221 - 06/08/08 09:39 PM

Read this early today from SCI email...per the thread...thought it would fit in good here...

Ripp




HSUS Makes Absurd Claim

The National Park Service is currently reviewing regulations that would allow individuals to carry firearms on Park Service lands as long as the individuals are in compliance with local and state laws. In rabid opposition to this common-sense proposal, the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has made an absurd statement claiming that law abiding citizens who carry firearms on National Parks will ultimately cause the demise of wildlife in America and incite poaching. Poaching, the illegal and unethical killing of animals is reprehensible to the hunting community. HSUS’s absurd statement that allowing American citizens the right to protect themselves on National Park lands will cause a greater frequency of poaching is outlandish. The real truth is that violent crime on federal lands is sadly common, and individuals should be allowed to exercise their right to carry under state and local laws. The comment period on this proposal remains open until August 8. Please submit your comments on-line at: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=090000648053d497 (Select the icon next to "Add Comments")

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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eljefedouble
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Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: Ripp]
      #111228 - 06/08/08 11:00 PM

Szihn,
''By far, most of the elected officials today from your local DAs and Sheriffs to the highest federal offices and all it's judges, are against the clear reading of the constitution.''
too true, and I thought it was good only for India

do excuse the ignorance, but IIRC,i remember reading thought he's a war hero, ex vietnam vet, VC POW etc? mccain a commie?

Ripp, the last I read, that canadian knifer was EATING the deceased...

Edited by eljefedouble (06/08/08 11:23 PM)


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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2106
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #111233 - 07/08/08 12:25 AM

eljefedouble, check out McCain's voting record in the last 18 years of his political career, and you'll see how many times he's voted to forward the cause of international communism.
Obama can't even come close. Obama has only 2 years in the Senate, but McCain has MANY years as a politician and his voting record is open to the public, if people would just check it out.
He's been a "Liberals liberal" for many years.

("liberal" is the word we use in the USA to say "communist", because the defining word “communist” is too revealing.
Just as in Russia, many if not most communists don't even know what a communist is. But, a communist is someone that supports the 10 planks of the socialist manifesto. Knowing where those planks are written is not relevant to the fact. If they support all the premises of communism, they are a communist ----- even though they don't know it, or even if they don't want to know it)

Edited by szihn (08/08/08 11:43 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: You Carry? You a "sheep", "wolf" or "sheepdog" type?? [Re: szihn]
      #111235 - 07/08/08 12:36 AM

Ripp - I own a number of legally owned handguns. I shoot they fairly regularly at the local gun club just to keep my hand in.
: I can pack them up (properly) and drive to any registered range in BC to shoot them and with invitaion, to any gun club in Canada - even if it happens to be in Newfoundland - a good 8 to 10 day drive. With a U.S. Form 6 Import licence, I can drive to any US/Canadian border crossing and hunt with my handguns in accordance with the laws in the US, ie: Montana. I can't hunt with them here in BC as it's illegal. I presently cannot legally carry one while hunting in the bush by myself, but may obtain a licence to carry one when guiding.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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