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Watson577
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Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle
      #282452 - 16/05/16 04:39 AM

Hello all,

I recently acquired this rifle and I thought that I should upload some photos of it for the archive. This rather unusual double rifle was built in 1888 for Prince Louis Esterhazy (1844-1912), Military Attaché at the Austrian Embassy in London from 1885 to 1902. Prince Esterhazy was an avid big game hunter. He was in India from 1886-87 and again from 1890-91 and he went to Africa in 1895. So far, I haven’t been able to uncover any details about this trip to Africa—only a single mention of him having left for Vienna on his way to Egypt. This tidbit of information came from the January 21, 1895 issue of the London Evening Standard newspaper. A large collection of his belongings exists at Forchtenstein Castle in Austria and I expect that in the future I’ll be able to uncover more information about his life and adventures. Here are some details about this rifle:

- Weight of Rifle: 13 lbs. 10.7 oz.
- Weight of barrels alone: 7 lbs. 14.1 oz.
- Width of action at breech to barrel interface: 2.365"
- Length of Barrels: 26-1/8"
- Rifling twist rate: 1:27"
- Bore diameters at muzzle: 0.687"
- Groove diameters at muzzles: 0.703"
- Groove diameters at the breech: 0.711"
- Type of cartridge: 3-1/2” drawn brass case, grease groove bullet?
- Diameter of chambers at forward ends: 0.730"
- Diameters of chambers just forward of rim cuts: 0.760" (this is the size of a 14-bore brass case)
- Rim cuts: standard 16-bore
- Sights: 50 yard standing, 100 yard folding
-
I found the following account of hunting tigers very interesting and I thought that many of you would enjoy reading it. The article appeared in the Barton County Democrat newspaper of June 16, 1887 (Great Bend, Kansas—he went to America after leaving India in 1887):

Prince Esterhazy's Dangerous Adventure in Eastern Jungles
"Tiger hunting in India is best carried on by baiting with cattle, so I took a drove of forty head with me," said Prince Louis Esterhazy, of Austria. "A band of some thirty of the natives were started three weeks in advance to seek out the best hunting grounds and whenever a good spot was found one of the shikarees dropped out with a certain number of cattle to await my coming. In this way I was enabled to hunt in the wildest sections. The cattle were tied one by one to trees in the jungle in the margin of a circle sometimes as much as five miles across. They were placed there at night. The tigers came forth at night to seek their prey, and, finding the cattle, leaped upon, killed, and devoured as much as they cared to and went their way. Much of this country is low and wet, and the tigers could easily be tracked in the soft soil, especially by the expert native Indians. Following the tracks each successive morning after baiting we would come upon and shoot them. In this way in eleven months, with but a single gun, I myself killed nineteen tigers. This is the best record made in India in eighteen years. I had a very big rifle, what is known as an eight-bore gun, carrying twelve drachms powder. With this an expert is able to bring down even the largest tiger easily, and sometimes by a single shot. But the sportsman must be as quick as lightning, for no sooner does one of these wild tigers see you, even though he may be surfeited with food, than he will leap for you with all the quickness imaginable, and if you do not make sure work of it you are gone. The first two or three times, when undergoing these experiences, it made me somewhat nervous, for fear I would not make a center shot, but in time I got more confidence. I speak now of hunting tigers on foot, as I was doing. This is the most dangerous way, but it is more fascinating. I several times went off into the jungle entirely alone, and hunting in this way I had a number of very narrow escapes. On one occasion I was tracking a tiger and was raising my gun to shoot, having come upon it suddenly, when I was startled by the deep growl and rapid tread of another coming upon me. I was so hard pressed that, after shooting one I had to flee for my life, and only just escaped by climbing a tree. In the eleven months I many times slept out alone in a dismal jungle with only my blanket to keep off the rain. I suppose I underwent many such an experience, so far as exposure is concerned, as your American trapper and miner did in earlier and more dangerous days. Another way to hunt tigers is to do the shooting from elephants or camels. When this is done a smaller rifle is generally used. I hunted principally as much as two or three hundred miles away from the farthest outpost. I had a regular caravan of elephants, shikarees, tents and various equipage, but wandering away by myself I was forced to camp and rough it and endure hard ships which I hardly anticipated. This was the case when, for quite a long period, all my servants got sick with fever. I shot more and bigger tigers during the rainy months. In ten days in July I shot five tigers and a panther. A tiger always comes from a hill and goes back to a hill. He will not stay long on low ground. Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.”






























Edited by CptCurl (10/01/17 11:22 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282454 - 16/05/16 05:28 AM

Beautiful and in such GREAT condition.

Yowser 9 drams is about 245gr. powder.

It's a 13 bore groove to groove - tapered groove depth opf .008" amazing, but standard since the English .58 Enfield Rifles of 1853 onward. Other counties copied this for their military hollow based bullet'd rifles as well, including the US.
27" twist - what weight bullet do you suppose?

What a GREAT RIFLE - well done!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #282459 - 16/05/16 06:57 AM

Daryl,

I don't know if the bores taper rapidly in the first 3 inches or so like my Alexander Henry rifles or if they are fairly linear. The twist rate really surprised me when I measured it. If you go by the Greenhill formula, it will stabilize a bullet that's over 2" long! The actual bullet couldn't have been that long, I'm fairly sure. I have no idea what bullet this rifle was designed to shoot but hopefully the Holland & Holland records will shed some light on this. The other thing that was a big surprise was the chambers. I had expected that they made this rifle to use longer than normal thin brass two-piece cases like Kynoch and Eley made but I'm certain that those cases would have ruptured in this rifle due to the larger diameters in front of the rims. This is why I'm fairly certain that drawn brass cases were used and I'll bet that these were needed because of the higher than normal operating pressure that was caused by a heavy bullet and 9-drams of powder. Depending on the bullet that was used, the "Bone Crusher" on the case might refer to the shooter's shoulder! Another thing that surprised me is how compact this rifle is. It's only 0.045" wider than my .577-3" BPE Watson Bros. double rifle. It feels like the .577 with a little added weight—not at all bulky feeling like the 8-bore. The Prince must have REALLY wanted this cartridge because it had to have cost a bundle to make those cases. A blanking die, a cupping die, a series of deep drawing dies and a heading die all had to be made in order to manufacture the cartridge cases. I wonder if any other rifles were ever built to handle this cartridge. I also wonder if a cartridge collector somewhere has one of these cartridges in their collection and has no idea what it is… You know that they must have made a decent run of these cases since I doubt that they ever expected to make more after the initial batch.

Regards,

Jim

PS: The cartridge dimensions are really close to that of the .700 nitro express. One of those cartridges would chamber if 0.023" was removed just in front of the rim and 0.003" removed at the mouth. The rim is a bit larger and thicker as well. If drawn cases weren't so expensive, this would be an obvious source for cases to modify.

Edited by Watson577 (16/05/16 07:05 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282461 - 16/05/16 07:53 AM

It's a beauty! I can't wait to see it in the flesh.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282463 - 16/05/16 08:36 AM

Jim - Excellent rifle and best quality, I love the rose and scroll engraving

You are probably right that the prince wanted that particular combination and may have had it to order, against buying a standard 12 bore
16/14 bore is certainly unusual, even a one off?

The cases may, as you say have been made thicker for the higher pressure

The flat hammers are less common on later rifles, except some of top quality - Ideal barrel length

I hope you can get some cases/heads an tell us how it shoots!

With a weight of 13lbs 10 oz recoil should not be too bad, unless you give it the full 9 drams!
(my own H&H 8 bore ball gun at 16lbs lets me know with 10 drams)

Many thanks for posting

Tony


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: TH44]
      #282466 - 16/05/16 09:19 AM

Quote:

With a weight of 13lbs 10 oz recoil should not be too bad, unless you give it the full 9 drams!
(my own H&H 8 bore ball gun at 16lbs lets me know with 10 drams)

Many thanks for posting

Tony




Considering an 8 bore ball is in the 875gr. range, I would think this rifle's twist must use a bullet at least that weight - OUCH! Didn't Forsyth figure a standard conical for the 14 bore would be 2 ounces = 875gr. for a 3' to 4' twist.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #282468 - 16/05/16 09:52 AM

Tony,

I also wondered why a 12-bore wasn't ordered. There can't be much difference but if he wanted a very heavy bullet and a larger that usual powder charge, even a 12-bore like this would have required custom cases. Also, a friend sent me a Greener Police gun cartridge case that's drawn brass and it is almost exactly the right size in front of the rim. Maybe some of the Greener 14-bore case tooling could be used for this? Even if that was the case, a lot of custom tooling would certainly have been needed because of the case length. Unless the records are detailed enough, we may never know.

Daryl,

My guess, and this is mainly just a gut feel based on the need for a stronger case and the fast twist rifling is that it was made to fire a bullet of at least 875 grains and likely heavier--maybe in the 1000 grain range. Prince Esterhazy used a 12-bore and a 12-dram 8-bore rifle during his first trip to India in 1886/87 and maybe he wanted to throw the same amount of lead, or even more, with a rifle that is more manageable. Who knows... I just think that it's neat and I enjoy digging up all of the history that I can find.

-Jim


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Rockdoc
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282469 - 16/05/16 10:29 AM

What a gorgeous rifle and in great condition.

Congratulations.


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Iowa_303s
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282477 - 16/05/16 12:47 PM

What a beauty! It would an execelent rifle for hunting deer here in Iowa since we can only use shotguns, muzzleloaders and pistols.
Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles but feel perfectly safe with people slinging 5 or more 1 ounce slugs at a running deer during a drive.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #282478 - 16/05/16 12:50 PM

What a lovely rifle. What a find.

"Esterhazy"

The thread opened for me in the middle of the photos. The first thing I saw, was the embossed name on the guncase and got excited.

I am saw I have seen that name mentioned in early hunting accounts in Kenya, from the golden age. Maybe not the same person (?), but the name was immediately familiar. I am sure it us also a Hungarian name. Which fits in with the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #282488 - 16/05/16 06:00 PM

That's amazing, I've never seen anything like that with those specs !! I really hope you can get some brass made up. Telephone Pat Murphy at Hollands in London and ask him for the records, it should have the bullet details. I will be calling him for a chat later in the week so I can ask him to dig it out if you like. best, Mike

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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #282489 - 16/05/16 07:17 PM

Hi Mike,

They are already looking through the records at Hollands and hopefully, I'll find out something soon. I'm curious if this rifle was made to the Prince's specifications or whether more than one was made. He was a regular customer of Holland & Holland's and there are testimonials in the 1890 catalog from him. Maybe this was something experimental that they asked him to try out. Who knows... Regarding the history, I found a book that was published recently that has a lot of photos from the first India trip along with many others but it's written in German so I can't decipher too much. I can take photos using my phone and then translate using an app that I have but it does a pretty poor job and leaves a lot of the words untranslated. Eventually, I'll have to find someone fluent in both languages to do a proper translation. There is a written section about the 1890-91 trip but no photos. I'll bet that the Esterhazy archives has photos from that second trip to India as well. I'll add information to this thread as it's uncovered since there seems to be a fair amount of interest in it. So far, I have found over 300 newspaper articles that mention "Prince Louis Esterhazy" but the vast majority have to do with leaving for Vienna, returning from Vienna, dining with the Prince and Princess of Wales, attending weddings, balls, horse racing events, horse auctions, and participating in live pigeon shoots. Nothing regarding that second trip to India in the newspapers so far except for one that mentions that he was leaving for Vienna on his way to India. I'm really hoping to find a photo of him holding this rifle. I always hope to find a period photo of the rifle with the original owner but so far I have never found a photo like that for any of mine. If someone out there has his 8-bore, I can help in this respect since there is a photo in the book that I described with Prince Esterhazy holding the rifle and standing behind a tiger. There is also another photo where he is holding what looks to be a 500 express or similar--also a Holland & Holland.

Regard,

Jim


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lonewulf
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282495 - 16/05/16 11:17 PM



Gosh, that really is something special. Almost swallowed my tongue with envy. Quite beautiful.


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Buchsemann
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: lonewulf]
      #282499 - 17/05/16 12:13 AM

Jim,

Great find, congratulations! A very interesting rifle for sure and in great condition. All reads as this piece has a wonderful history. Looking forward to your updates.

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Buchsemann]
      #282506 - 17/05/16 06:36 AM

Guys,

Thank you for your comments. I was like a moth drawn to a flame when I saw this rifle--I surely didn't need to buy another one but I just couldn't resist. I'm sure that many of you are well aware of how the disease progresses...

Regards,

Jim


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Itkid
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282543 - 17/05/16 11:05 PM

Congratulation for the rifle, it is in great condition.
Which program do you have for it?


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Jaguarhunter
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282546 - 18/05/16 12:24 AM

Eventually, I'll have to find someone fluent in both languages to do a proper translation.

I can do this.
:-)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #282553 - 18/05/16 03:37 AM

" Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.” "-

Amazing comment.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282560 - 18/05/16 06:56 AM

Hi Itkid,

I would gladly answer your question but I'm not sure what you are asking me. Can you ask your question in a different way?

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #282561 - 18/05/16 06:58 AM

Hi Jaguarhunter,

That's great! Should I send you the text that I have in a private message? Many thanks in advance for your help!

Regards,

Jim


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Rockdoc
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282577 - 18/05/16 10:02 AM

I just noticed 'Holland' and 'Bone Crusher' on they outside of the oak and leather case! Never seen that before!

Do you have a photo of the inside of the case? Just for curiosity sake.

The barrel photographed looks unused.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282588 - 18/05/16 08:12 PM

That's what I thought, the barrels and bore look almost mint !! There is still quite substantial colour hardening too, a very rare piece indeed, best

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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282621 - 19/05/16 04:13 AM

Hi there, Rockdoc,

I would post a photo of the interior of the case but it was basically gutted in 1948 when a pair of 10 gauge nitro shot barrels were made for it. Whoever owned it at that time removed all of the blocking and the dust lip at the ends of where the barrels fit so that the shot barrels could be put into the case. My intent is to restore the interior to a period correct state with the proper accessories. The cleaning rod is one that I was lucky enough to find at the Southern SxS meet. I bought it because I had never seen one like that before and it turns out to be the correct type for this rifle! I really lucked out on that one.

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #282622 - 19/05/16 04:17 AM

Mike,

The bores are in new condition from what I can see--a pleasant surprise for sure. Externally, the rifle does look to have seen a considerable amount of use though so I guess that the bores were thoroughly cleaned and oiled between uses. Either that or it was carried around a lot but not fired often. I wish that my Alexander Henry .450-3-1/4" had been treated so well!

Regards,

Jim


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Itkid
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282665 - 19/05/16 10:28 PM

Quote:

Hi Itkid,

I would gladly answer your question but I'm not sure what you are asking me. Can you ask your question in a different way?

Regards,

Jim




Hi, i would say you pla to use it for hunting or simply collection and some shot in the range?


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282681 - 20/05/16 07:47 AM

Itkid,

Thank you for your message. I have rifles like this mostly because I appreciate their fine craftsmanship and history. It's an obsession that I have had for the past seven years or so and I am interested in just about all aspects of the British gun trade during the black powder era. I also enjoy researching the lives of the original owners, if I can find out who that man was. I do occasionally shoot these rifles but I have never hunted with them. I hope that I have properly answered your questions.

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282682 - 20/05/16 08:26 AM

JIM - Cases could be turned form 3/4" stock, I expect, with only a slight reduction in capacity -- would be a lot of work, but! Being able to shoot it- priceless.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282683 - 20/05/16 08:27 AM

Jim

You have put exactly my own reasons and outlook on these interesting firearms

The black powder, preferably hammer rifles are unique for being built mainly over a relatively short time span

The history of some of mine ( Winston Churchill's grandfather, and the 8 bore in Africa with Selous) are most interesting and I wish there were more stories about them
Good luck on your own research

I also love the later large bore percussion rifles which have their own history with the earlier pioneers

Please everybody keep getting and posting pics

Tony


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tinker
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282695 - 20/05/16 05:50 PM

Excellent!


Thanks for sharing this rifle.
Also thanks for the specifications.
May we see inside the case?



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #293641 - 12/01/17 12:02 AM

It's time for an update. I see Watson577 has neglected this thread. He hasn't neglected the rifle, though. I think I'll take the liberty to give an incomplete account of progress. Hopefully Watson577 will fill in details.

To shoot this rifle requires brass, bullets, and dies. None existed when the rifle came to Watson577. The cartridge seems to be a one-off; evidently a special order, unique in Holland & Holland production. Numerous entreaties to Holland & Holland for information on bullets and regulation produced nothing. These parts of H&H records went up in smoke under German bombs. So Watson577 essentially began with only this information:

* The cartridge has the head of a 16 bore;
* The rifle is proved as a 14 bore;and
* Load data engraved on side of action "Charge 9 drams, Brass Case 3-1/2 inches." (See all details in first post.)

For me, that would be the end of the road. An elegant wall hanger, thank you. But not for Watson577.

Among other skills, our dear Watson577 is an expert machinist. So he set out to make dies and brass cases. His effort produced an exquisite pair of loading dies, made out of 1-1/2" round stock.





Off to the heat-treater they went.

Then from brass bar stock he made cases; and beautiful ones!







They are properly annealed and ready to go!

The bullet remained a mystery. Holland had no record to identify its weight. Only trial-and-error will work now.

Watson577 made a push-through draw die and gathered up various large bullets from several sources. Here is his array of "try" bullets with information about their weights and origins (all to be paper-patched for trials).



So now it's time to load cartridges. Nine drams works out to 246 grains of black powder. That's a bunch of powder! Here are the first "try" cartridges, all loaded with 246 grains of GEOX Olde Eynford 1-1/2f.



And a couple of glamour shots.










These are rather large, to say the least.

November 26, 2016 was the day for firing the Bone Crusher. How many years had passed since this rifle was fired? We can only guess. Click the next link for a video of Watson577 firing these try-loads. The very first firing for him.



Video: First Shots from Bone Crusher 26 Nov 2016






We had another little shoot this past weekend. It was my turn to experience the Bone Crusher. Here are a few screen captures from my first shot (taken 06 Jan 2017).












That's the news on Jim's Bone Crusher. I've been an interested bystander through all this progress. Jim is a persistent wizard. He deserves an enormous amount of credit for making this fine old rifle again belch fire, smoke, and lead.

Curl



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Chasseur
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #293645 - 12/01/17 01:41 AM

Thanks for the update Curly. I was very excited to be at the first shooting back in November and I hope to make it to the next one.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Chasseur]
      #293662 - 12/01/17 09:01 AM

Curl,

Thank you for your kind words! I have been meaning to update this thread for some time now but I've just been too busy to do it. You did a fine job! I really enjoyed my visit this past weekend and I look forward to doing it again sometime soon. Maybe we can make some headway with the express rifles using black powder.

More testing with the Bone Crusher will be required but what sort of projectile it needs is still not exactly in sharp focus. Spherical ball--definitely not. Probably a bullet in the range of 900 grains is what it's calling for. Of course, I need to learn how to shoot better as well--that will help immensely!

Chasseur,

It was good to finally meet you back in November and Maybe we can meet down at Curl's place again sometime in the near future. You'll have to experience this rifle as well!

Cheers,

Jim


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sharps4590
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294013 - 18/01/17 10:48 AM

Wow...exquisite...superlative...there is no adequate adjective. Watson, your machine work is extraordinary. Very, very well done sir.

Cpt., it looks as if the recoil was attempting to flatten your nose with your right thumb!! Artillery sort of comes to mind..

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: sharps4590]
      #294034 - 19/01/17 05:01 AM

Quote:

. . .

Cpt., it looks as if the recoil was attempting to flatten your nose with your right thumb!! Artillery sort of comes to mind..




I've had that happen! Most recently with my H&H 10 bore Paradox.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Wayne59
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294041 - 19/01/17 07:55 AM

I wonder if I have that same expression when I gire some of mine.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #294062 - 20/01/17 03:31 AM

Thanks for sharing Jim.

A 9dramer 16bore(.665bore). That caliber was the .585Nyathi of the 1890s.

Let us know about velocity when you get around that part.

Lovely rifle for sure.


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500Boswell
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #294067 - 20/01/17 08:20 AM

Do any double manufacturers still make the Jones style underlever hammer rifles? maybe Special order or no doubt if you kept pushing money in front of their noses some might come to the party eventually .

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294074 - 20/01/17 10:14 AM

Quote:

Do any double manufacturers still make the Jones style underlever hammer rifles? maybe Special order or no doubt if you kept pushing money in front of their noses some might come to the party eventually .




I don't know of any makers who do the Jones action currently; but like you say, money talks.

I do know that once you get hooked on a Jones action it's hard to go back to a toplever action. Just doesn't feel right.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294080 - 20/01/17 03:30 PM

Quote:



Video: First Shots from Bone Crusher 26 Nov 2016







Nice slow big push from the 16bore.

I like the portable standing rest. Any more photos of it? Is it adjustable for height?

Some more pics please, perhaps on a new dedicated thread. Thanks!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Boswell
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294089 - 20/01/17 08:01 PM

Yes i saved some photos of the standing rest ,in the hope i can get off my arse and make one like it ,that rifle looks like it boots !

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Shackleton
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #294101 - 21/01/17 02:26 AM

Quote:


Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles



Even worse-I can put a 16+" barrel on my TC Contender pistol, chambered in .45-70 and shoot a deer with it. BUT, the instant I turn one screw and add a stock(legal at that barrel length) it becomes an illegal firearm for deer.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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500Boswell
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Shackleton]
      #294106 - 21/01/17 07:47 AM

Were black powder doubles a nightmare to regulate ? considering how finicky some black powder guns can be to get to shoot [accurately]

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294145 - 22/01/17 02:31 PM

Jim asked me to post a link to his design of the portable standing rest seen in this thread. Here it is:

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/DR_Archive/Watson577/Bone_Crusher/Standing_Rest.PDF

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294165 - 22/01/17 11:13 PM

Quote:

Jim asked me to post a link to his design of the portable standing rest seen in this thread. Here it is:

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/DR_Archive/Watson577/Bone_Crusher/Standing_Rest.PDF

Curl




Thanks Curl!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294176 - 23/01/17 07:55 AM

500Boswell,

I don't know for certain, but based on what I have read from period sources, I would say that rifles in the black powder era probably weren't any more difficult than Nitro Express rifles to regulate. I'm sure that if we had all of the same components available to us that were used originally to regulate these rifles, we would be more successful at making black powder ammunition that shoots properly. My experiences, however, haven’t been so good in that respect. Shooting ability also enters into the equation and I question my ability often!

Regards,

Jim


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MikeRowe
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294185 - 23/01/17 11:06 AM

Roscoe, thank you for posting Jim's drawings for a standing rest. I think it is a most worthwhile piece of equipment to have, especially as nicely as Jim built them.

I have used a standing rest for a long time now. I believe these old double and light magazine rifles do not shoot as they should, either group wise or point of impact, if shot from a bench rest. They are hunting rifles, and a typical supported hunting shot needs to be replicated. The recoil from a heavier calibre is also easier to take with a standing rest.

If you don't have one already, I'd encourage you to build one like Jim's.


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HeymSR20
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #294245 - 25/01/17 04:17 AM

I imagine there are quite a few stories in that old rifle - if only they could talk.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: HeymSR20]
      #294287 - 26/01/17 06:23 PM

What would a 16-bore rifle have been used for?

Back in the day, IMO and from armchair readings of vintage books, the rarer 4-bore and more common 8-bore were considered "elephant rifles".

Haven't read much about 10-bore rifles, like the one I have, but people have said, yes it could handle elephant. It will get a go on buffalo one day.

12-bore rifles were not considered elephant rifles. I have seen written historical accounts criticising their use on buffalo, gaur etc as being too light. No doubt they could kill buffalo, but interesting to see they might have been considered too light for buffalo by some historical writers.

The introduction of nitro cartridges changed the perception of bore size ranges and what was needed for what sort of game or situation. What we consider very large bores today were often medium game bores in the days before nitro cartridges.

I am currently reading Grogans, "Cape to Cairo" again, and it is always a bit shocking to read about their lack of success in killing bigger beasts, eg lion and buffalo. He writes about using a double ".500 Magnum", I presume a Black Powder Express? His shooting results would definitely be hopeless if it was a .500 NE.

Watson, what are your plans for this rifle? Deer. bear, perhaps a bison?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294288 - 26/01/17 06:32 PM

Prince Esterhazy with his 8-bore on tiger and panther. From Watson's opening post.

I reckon the lighter 16-bore could do well on 'panther' and tiger as well.

Quote:

I found the following account of hunting tigers very interesting and I thought that many of you would enjoy reading it. The article appeared in the Barton County Democrat newspaper of June 16, 1887 (Great Bend, Kansas—he went to America after leaving India in 1887):
.
Prince Esterhazy's Dangerous Adventure in Eastern Jungles
"Tiger hunting in India is best carried on by baiting with cattle, so I took a drove of forty head with me," said Prince Louis Esterhazy, of Austria. "A band of some thirty of the natives were started three weeks in advance to seek out the best hunting grounds and whenever a good spot was found one of the shikarees dropped out with a certain number of cattle to await my coming. In this way I was enabled to hunt in the wildest sections. The cattle were tied one by one to trees in the jungle in the margin of a circle sometimes as much as five miles across. They were placed there at night. The tigers came forth at night to seek their prey, and, finding the cattle, leaped upon, killed, and devoured as much as they cared to and went their way. Much of this country is low and wet, and the tigers could easily be tracked in the soft soil, especially by the expert native Indians. Following the tracks each successive morning after baiting we would come upon and shoot them. In this way in eleven months, with but a single gun, I myself killed nineteen tigers. This is the best record made in India in eighteen years. I had a very big rifle, what is known as an eight-bore gun, carrying twelve drachms powder. With this an expert is able to bring down even the largest tiger easily, and sometimes by a single shot. But the sportsman must be as quick as lightning, for no sooner does one of these wild tigers see you, even though he may be surfeited with food, than he will leap for you with all the quickness imaginable, and if you do not make sure work of it you are gone. The first two or three times, when undergoing these experiences, it made me somewhat nervous, for fear I would not make a center shot, but in time I got more confidence. I speak now of hunting tigers on foot, as I was doing. This is the most dangerous way, but it is more fascinating. I several times went off into the jungle entirely alone, and hunting in this way I had a number of very narrow escapes. On one occasion I was tracking a tiger and was raising my gun to shoot, having come upon it suddenly, when I was startled by the deep growl and rapid tread of another coming upon me. I was so hard pressed that, after shooting one I had to flee for my life, and only just escaped by climbing a tree. In the eleven months I many times slept out alone in a dismal jungle with only my blanket to keep off the rain. I suppose I underwent many such an experience, so far as exposure is concerned, as your American trapper and miner did in earlier and more dangerous days. Another way to hunt tigers is to do the shooting from elephants or camels. When this is done a smaller rifle is generally used. I hunted principally as much as two or three hundred miles away from the farthest outpost. I had a regular caravan of elephants, shikarees, tents and various equipage, but wandering away by myself I was forced to camp and rough it and endure hard ships which I hardly anticipated. This was the case when, for quite a long period, all my servants got sick with fever. I shot more and bigger tigers during the rainy months. In ten days in July I shot five tigers and a panther. A tiger always comes from a hill and goes back to a hill. He will not stay long on low ground. Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.”




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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sharps4590
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Shackleton]
      #294307 - 26/01/17 11:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles



Even worse-I can put a 16+" barrel on my TC Contender pistol, chambered in .45-70 and shoot a deer with it. BUT, the instant I turn one screw and add a stock(legal at that barrel length) it becomes an illegal firearm for deer.




Over a few decades of observation it has become my considered opinion that game agencies have absolutely no concept of ballistics.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294309 - 27/01/17 02:55 AM

Quote:


. . .

I am currently reading Grogans, "Cape to Cairo" again, and it is always a bit shocking to read about their lack of success in killing bigger beasts, eg lion and buffalo. He writes about using a double ".500 Magnum", I presume a Black Powder Express? His shooting results would definitely be hopeless if it was a .500 NE.

. . .






John,

In all likelihood the reference to a ".500 Magnum" was a reference to the .577/500 Magnum Express 3-1/8".



Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Huvius
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294314 - 27/01/17 07:17 AM





Someday I really want to rechamber my 50/110 Ruger No1 to that cartridge!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294321 - 27/01/17 09:16 AM

NitroX,

I didn't grow up with a hunting tradition in my family and I have never been hunting. For this reason, it is very unlikely that I will ever use this rifle for the purpose that it was originally intended for. The history, fine workmanship and styling have been what draws me so strongly to these rifles. For some reason that I don't quite understand, game guns or shotguns as we call them in the US, don't interest me nearly as much.

Unless I suddenly feel the urge to go hunting, I just plan to continue researching the history of this rifle and abusing my shoulder I hope to develop a good load using the original 9-dram charge. So far, it seems that the rifle isn't all that sensitive to bullet weight but my best results so far were with bullets that weight about 900-grains. A lot more testing and practice will be necessary, however, in order to find the correct load.

As for what it could be used for, my hunch is that it will take anything that you want to use it for. If I remember correctly, Arthur Neumann hunted elephants during his first season using a 577 black powder express with a great degree of success. Another bit of insight is provided by the circa 1890 Holland & Holland catalog, where I found the following testimonials on page 24:

**********************************************************************************************
Letter from Major F. Gordon Cumming:--

“The 12 bore rifle is simply perfect. I fired my first shot out of it at a charging rogue elephant; he fell down all of a heap. I probed the wound and found the ball had penetrated an immense distance.”
____________________________________________________________________________________
Letter from Prince Louis Esterhazy:-- September 18th, 1886.

“Your rifles have given me the greatest satisfaction. I shot fifteen tigers with them and killed several rhinos and buffaloes, with one single bullet behind the shoulder, with the 12 bore rifle. They never went more than twenty yards, and dropped stone dead—a proof of their great killing power.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Letter from Lieut. S. Pulley, R.N.:--

“Your rifle I am very much pleased with. My party last season got exactly fifty elephants, more than half of which I killed with your 16 bore rifle (shooting 8 drams and cone ball).”

**********************************************************************************************

The last testimonial is the most interesting because that rifle was probably very similar to mine. Since I have no actual experience with such things, all that I can do is go by what tidbits I can find in the historical record. At some point, I would like to take some velocity measurements using 800 and 900-grain bullets. I'm curious what sort of Taylor K.O. numbers would result.

Best Regards,

Jim


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MikeRowe
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294330 - 27/01/17 10:38 AM

If you want to try that rifle out on deer, Jim, come down here. Shorty and I got half a dozen this season - they're all over the place. However, we may have to trek to the next county to recover them
if you use that big rifle. They're not very big.

I can attest that the 577/500 magnum has no felt recoil - all one has to do is to shoot it right after shooting Watson577's 8 bore rifle. You don't feel a thing......


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #294365 - 28/01/17 09:09 AM

I thought maybe Jim would update with this information. He's really busy doing real-world things, so I'll update for him.

Question: Do you think our Watson577 would be satisfied with the wonderful pieces of brass he hand-crafted for this rifle? Well, certainly not until they look proper! They have no headstamp.




But that's not a problem. He had a headstamp die made:




And into the big press it went:






And it worked against the plain brass heads:




And that which was once plain is now adorned with a proper headstamp. Problem solved.









Beauties, aren't they?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294377 - 28/01/17 12:53 PM

Curl,

I sure do appreciate your updating this thread for me! Thank you for all of the nice comments as well!

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294380 - 28/01/17 12:56 PM

Mike,

The Bone Crusher is an awful lot of rifle for deer but maybe I'll take you up on your offer one of these days!

Thanks,

Jim


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93x64mm
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294387 - 28/01/17 04:38 PM

CaptCurl - you do most excellent work!
Watson will be most pleased......they certainly are beauties!
With that moniker on them they would be legal anywhere in the hunting world.
As for a deer with them, a single 1" hole bored all the way through with virtually no meat loss!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294388 - 28/01/17 04:39 PM

Thanks for the replies Watson and Curl.

Amazing all the detail on the brass.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #294401 - 28/01/17 11:39 PM

Quote:

CaptCurl - you do most excellent work!
Watson will be most pleased......they certainly are beauties!
With that moniker on them they would be legal anywhere in the hunting world.
As for a deer with them, a single 1" hole bored all the way through with virtually no meat loss!





No, no, no!

I did none of this work. Watson577 did it. Not me. I'm just reporting it for him.

He's the talented wizard. I'm the interested bystander.

Curl

--------------------
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294402 - 28/01/17 11:41 PM

I didn't even take the pictures. He did and sent them to me by email.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294409 - 29/01/17 07:43 AM

You're so modest Curl - makes ME blush - it was all you - really --

We know it was Watson all the time. HA!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470evans
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #294739 - 04/02/17 02:41 AM

Wow!

I am impressed with both the rifle and the skills needed to get it running again. I truly enjoyed watching the progress.

Thank you for posting.


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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 470evans]
      #295556 - 20/02/17 11:05 AM

Hello Guys,

I have recently done some more testing using a bullet that I designed from an original Holland & Holland 12-bore bullet. The ones in the photos weight 888-grains in 15:1 alloy and with 250-grains of Olde Eynsford 1-1/2 black powder, the velocities measured with a Magnetospeed Sporter chronograph, alternating right and left were:

1486 ft/s
1495 ft/s
1493 ft/s
1506 ft/s
1496 ft/s

These shots were fired after eight previous shots without cleaning the bores first. The custom bullet mould was made by Accurate Molds, LLC in about two weeks. The quality is excellent and it only cost me $78 plus shipping! As you can see on the target, the barrels are crossing slightly and also a little to the left. The front sight is bent a bit to the right so that's likely what's going on there. I have an order in for a 1000-grain version of that bullet mould and if that doesn't uncross the barrels, I'll leave well enough alone because it ought to uncross at least a little more and that's certainly good enough for what this rifle was probably meant for.












That's all for now.

Cheers,

Jim


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295582 - 20/02/17 11:30 PM

Jim,

That's some real horsepower pushing a 2 ounce bullet at 1500 fps. Same ballistics as my 10 bore Paradox.

Did the muzzle-mounted chronograph have any effect on regulation? I'm assuming the target was shot without the chronograph in place. Were the readings reliable?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #295583 - 21/02/17 12:30 AM

Curl,

I didn't even attempt to chronograph shots while shooting at a target because I'm certain that doing so will throw off the regulation. The chronograph worked perfectly, I just didn't have six cartridges so that's why there were only five velocities reported. After the last shooting session, I lost my first case but that was my fault I'm pretty sure. When I was resizing the cases, I heard a cracking sound as I ran the last case into the resizing die. The mouth split for about 1/4" starting at the mouth and I know why. I had annealed those cases before the forming operation but not afterwards. I had thought that the cases were moving by such a small amount between firing and resizing that work hardening wouldn't be a problem but I figured wrong! If I had annealed again after forming, that case probably would not have cracked. Now I think that I'll anneal after every firing just to be safe. I want these cases to last as long as possible for obvious reasons.

Regarding the power of this rifle, it is indeed very similar to the 10-bore Paradox. The hole size is smaller but the amount of lead and the muzzle velocities are about the same--at least with my current load. With proper regulation, the velocities and /or bullet weight might need to increase. One thing that I'm sure of is that the powder that I'm using is not the equal of Curtis's & Harvey's number 6. We found that out during our Express rifle tests. Another thing with this rifle is that I'll bet that you can use a very wide range of projectile types in it. With a 27" twist, it will stabilize a bullet that is around 2" long! Steel-cored as well as explosive projectiles are possible and may have been one of the reasons for this unusual design. Explosive projectiles would have been very effective against tiger and other thin-skinned game and lead-sheathed, steel-cored projectiles of this weight could have been used against elephants, gaur or other "iron plated monsters" as Captain Forsyth referred to them. I, of course, have no direct experience so this is purely conjecture. Since volumes 1-9 of the Holland & Holland day books were destroyed during the London bombings of WWII, we will probably never know. I still hold out hope that I'll uncover some writings of Prince Esterhazy that might shed some light on this subject but barring that happening I'm almost certainly out of luck in this respect.

I really wonder if better regulation could be achieved with that fine-grained Olde Eynsford 2F powder that seems to be so elusive. I might try the coarse-grained version that I have just to see if there is any difference at all between it and the 1-1/2F Olde Eynsford that I have been using so far. One thing is clear and that's that I need a bit more recoil to achieve proper regulation. Fortunately, this rifle is so well designed that this doesn't worry me. It handles very well during recoil and doesn't exhibit any nasty tendencies. My fingers haven't been banged around yet. The 8-bore cracked my middle finger bone because of the trigger guard! So far, the "Bone Crusher" name seems to refer to the intended target and not the shooter

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #295593 - 21/02/17 06:37 AM

In the round ball era of the 1850's and 60's - the 16 bore was considered by many to be the minimum for tiger, elephant (India) and buffalo, this, according to Lt. James Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle And Its Projectiles, printed in 1862.

The 14 bore SXS or single, was the ultimate for these animals for the hunter to carry himself.

With the change to ctg. guns using conical bullets that could be hardened, the breech loaders surpassed the 16 to 8 bore round ball guns that were previously favoured for India, as hard balls could be used in them and out penetrated the soft lead conicals (necessary to take the rifling) of the day.

I dare say, this 16 bore was quite capable of 'taking' elephant of either country due to it's huge powder charge and hardened concial that would work in 27" of twist.

Note also, back in the mid to late 1800's, many English gun makers though MORE twist made the gun shoot harder, with many round balls guns have 36" rates of twist. They simply did not shoot well, due to 'stripping' with any big game charge.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295621 - 21/02/17 11:51 PM

Quote:

In the round ball era of the 1850's and 60's - the 16 bore was considered by many to be the minimum for tiger, elephant (India) and buffalo, this, according to Lt. James Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle And Its Projectiles, printed in 1862.

The 14 bore SXS or single, was the ultimate for these animals for the hunter to carry himself.





Which is probably why we always read early accounts of these guys shooting animals a "dozen" times and numerous animals escaping ...

Thanks for the reference supporting the comment. I think Forsyth, was a recommender of inadequate firearms. Like some experts have also done in the nitro cartridge age.

If I ever get my 10 bore shooting, it will be interesting to see how it handles water buffalo. It is on my objective list for this year to get it shooting. Will depend on how much or anything needs custom making or importing.

And it is definitely light enough for a hunter to carry himself.

Daryl, thanks for the reply.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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nopride2
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #295905 - 27/02/17 03:17 AM

Watson

Good looking mold. A heck of a buy at $78.00. I'll keep Accurate Molds on my list for when I need a new mold. Nice rifle and an interesting project.

Dave


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: nopride2]
      #295906 - 27/02/17 04:12 AM

perhaps:

Reference about Samuel Baker in the book.

"Mr. Baker has stated, that 4 1/2 drams will drive a ball of that size through both sides of an elephant's head, and with 4 1/2 or even 5 drams may be used in such a rifle without any very unpleasant recoil, and without any bad effect on the accuracy of the ball, but the reverse."

He went on to describe the slow rate of twist necessary for the round ball gun, unlike the current makers who are putting in too fast a twist.

Seems to me John Taylor used a .577/450 (480gr. at about 1,340fps) for a period in his poaching career due to losing his other "rifles" in a river.

That rifle the ultimate, no - did it work? I don't know, seems to have worked.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lonewulf
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295907 - 27/02/17 05:26 AM



Hi Watson

Just wondering; has any thought been given to the use of longer projectiles in the rifle? I haven't shot BP for may years now but with a 1 in 27 twist??? I'd have thought a longer (paper patched) projectile might do quite well.


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: lonewulf]
      #295911 - 27/02/17 10:12 AM

Hi there Lonewulf,

A paper patched bullet would be about the same length as the grease grooved bullet unless the ogive is lengthened and the bearing length is reduced. I based the bullet design on original Holland & Holland 12-bore and 8-bore designs but a longer bullet could certainly be made--especially a Forsyth shell or hollow pointed design. That twist rate certainly leaves a lot of options, but I was trying to make what I think is the closest thing to the design that was originally used.

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295912 - 27/02/17 10:37 AM

Now that you mention it, it might be a 'shell rifle' afterall, designed for exploding bullets.
Since you mentioned it, Jim, I suspect you have the book.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295995 - 28/02/17 11:29 AM

Hi Daryl,

As you can see below, Prince Esterhazy was aware of Captain James Forsyth since he wrote "Captain James Forsyth Highlands of Central India" inside of a book or travel map that he used for planning his trip to India in 1886/87. I'll bet that he had a copy of "the Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". I always thought that 1888 was a bit late for a rifle built to use explosive shells but who knows, anything is possible. Something else that I find interesting are the travel times are written on the opposite page:

Hong Kong Yokohama 7 days
Yokohama San Francisco 22 days
San Francisco New York ? days
New York London 10 days

This is from a book written in German that I found. There is a whole chapter with a lot of great photographs in it but I have been hesitant to upload the photos because of potential copyright issues. I suppose that if they don't like this being online, they can tell me to take it down.

Regards,

Jim



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295996 - 28/02/17 11:34 AM

I shot a 3/4" thick steel plate with this rifle this past weekend and I was very surprised to see that it actually cratered the steel! The depth from the lip to the bottom of the crater was about 0.15" deep. I was expecting to see nothing more than a bright spot where the bullet hit but this is what I found:







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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #296001 - 28/02/17 12:01 PM

Quote:

As you can see below, Prince Esterhazy was aware of Captain James Forsyth since he wrote "Captain James Forsyth Highlands of Central India" inside of a book or travel map that he used for planning his trip to India in 1886/87. I'll bet that he had a copy of "the Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". I always thought that 1888 was a bit late for a rifle built to use explosive shells but who knows, anything is possible. Something else that I find interesting are the travel times are written on the opposite page:

This is from a book written in German that I found. There is a whole chapter with a lot of great photographs in it but I have been hesitant to upload the photos because of potential copyright issues. I suppose that if they don't like this being online, they can tell me to take it down.

Regards,

Jim





Jim,

I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice! But generally a book's copyright ceases 50 years after the death of the author. However there is other legal bits and pieces I have never understood, which can extend it.

So if the book is old, the writer is long dead, there SHOULD be no issue with copyright. Our legal members can chime in if they wish.

To date, we have never had anyone take issue with the hundreds and hundreds of books and magazines published online in the ezine / Nickudud files. Lots of b@$#@*%$ pinching them though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #296006 - 28/02/17 12:45 PM

John,

The book in question was published in 2010 and it's about hunting and the Esterhazy Princes. There are a lot of photos and personal belongings of Prince Louis Esterhazy that are shown in the book and from what I have found, they must be stored at Forchtenstein Castle or in the archives of the Esterhazy palace in Eisenstadt. One of our fellow members tried contacting the castle about their holdings by phone, but they weren't interested in helping at all and basically told him that they didn't have anything. This is obviously not the case. They didn't respond to two messages that I sent either. My guess is that they really don't care.

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #296007 - 28/02/17 12:48 PM

4,300fpe with a black powder rifle - well done! Bet Forsyth's 'shell's would be kinda special!

8 bore, I think.

"No.1 was charging: shell hit him in the mouth, exploded in this throat, and blew his head into pieces."

"Nos.2 and 3 were both hit far back in the body, and low down: in neither instance would a common ball have had the least effect. No. 2 ran150yards and fell, and No. 3 stayed where he was. On opening, the whole cavity of the body was full of extravasated (sic) blood."

"No. 4 I must day would have had little chance of doing mischief, whatever sort of projectile he had met with, for the shell struck ihim full in the forehead, making a clean round hole on entering, but blowing the back of the head and bones of the neck into little bits.
In addition to these four, I finished with a shell another tiger which had previously received three common balls, and had still some life left. The effect was equally instantaneous."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #296720 - 10/03/17 06:24 PM

American Theodore Van Dyke writes of making and the effect of exploding projectiles in his book "The Still Hunter" which was published in 1882.

I also have recently bought a mold from Accurate Molds, it is excellent in every way, and has made prefect bullets from the start. They only took just over a week to send it out to NZ from Utah as well.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #296772 - 11/03/17 07:54 AM

CarlsenHighway,

Thank you mentioning that book! I had never heard of it and I just downloaded a PDF from Google.

Cheers,

Jim

PS: I'm glad that you liked that mould.


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Ash
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #296876 - 12/03/17 01:22 PM

Theres a book i read - "Trapping wild animals in Malay jungles" by Charles Mayer and he has a .50-110 Winchester, talks about "exploding bullets" and using them to impress the locals by their affects on trees.

Did they ever actually make these or was he simply referring to the Express bullets??

--------------------
.


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #296878 - 12/03/17 01:48 PM

There was a bullet made, some time ago, but British, I think, using copper tubes, closed on the top-end, and shoved down into hollow pointed bullets, expressly cast for these tubes. Some tubes were empty, open end up to promote rapid expansion, while others were closed end up to delay expansion, while others yet had detonating compound, usually chlorate of mercury (seems to me)- however might have been the old standby used for pill locks and tube locks. This formula I have read, was outlawed in 1898 as it was somewhat unstable if mixed in a slurry and dried, rather than in powder form.

5 parts Potassium Chlorate
1 part Sulphur
1 part Charcoal (soft or hardwood, not known)

When I tested this formula I did not know about the slurry/dried as being unstable.
I bored a 3/8" hole in .58 calibre solid base bullets for my Hawken. 3 shots would cut off a 12" Aspen tree. They were fun to shoot, but somewhat of a concern when loading.
After finding out the slurry mix I was using was unstable, I ceased in this venture. Initially I was using the compound for my home made percussion caps.
Due to the Chlorates these percussion caps produced fouling that was VERY corrosive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #296947 - 13/03/17 08:31 AM

I never fooled around with anything except the original Forsyth compound. I tried 8-bore and 12-bore Forsyth shells and I don't think that they would be as powerful as what Daryl describes. The Forsyth shells are pretty hard to set off and I don't think that one would ever go off inside the barrel. For an example, I fired an 8-bore shell into a soft, wet bank once and it didn't go off. The shell was fairly crushed up but I guess that shock wasn't enough to set it off. That shell does have a rather thick nose though.

A failure that really surprised me was when I shot a 12-bore shell into a Paw Paw tree (about like balsa wood) at a downward angle. The shell went through about 7" of wood and then embedded in the ground, unexploded. Again, the shell was fairly crushed up. If you make the nose thin enough or hollow with wax plugging the hole, they will go off reliably in a ¾” thick stack of hanging wet newspaper. I haven’t seen the effect on game but I have a friend that has shot large game with them and he said that they are very effective if you choose the right alloy to match the application.

I may just have to work up a shell design for the 16-bore…


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