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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282681 - 20/05/16 07:47 AM

Itkid,

Thank you for your message. I have rifles like this mostly because I appreciate their fine craftsmanship and history. It's an obsession that I have had for the past seven years or so and I am interested in just about all aspects of the British gun trade during the black powder era. I also enjoy researching the lives of the original owners, if I can find out who that man was. I do occasionally shoot these rifles but I have never hunted with them. I hope that I have properly answered your questions.

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282682 - 20/05/16 08:26 AM

JIM - Cases could be turned form 3/4" stock, I expect, with only a slight reduction in capacity -- would be a lot of work, but! Being able to shoot it- priceless.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282683 - 20/05/16 08:27 AM

Jim

You have put exactly my own reasons and outlook on these interesting firearms

The black powder, preferably hammer rifles are unique for being built mainly over a relatively short time span

The history of some of mine ( Winston Churchill's grandfather, and the 8 bore in Africa with Selous) are most interesting and I wish there were more stories about them
Good luck on your own research

I also love the later large bore percussion rifles which have their own history with the earlier pioneers

Please everybody keep getting and posting pics

Tony


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282695 - 20/05/16 05:50 PM

Excellent!


Thanks for sharing this rifle.
Also thanks for the specifications.
May we see inside the case?



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #293641 - 12/01/17 12:02 AM

It's time for an update. I see Watson577 has neglected this thread. He hasn't neglected the rifle, though. I think I'll take the liberty to give an incomplete account of progress. Hopefully Watson577 will fill in details.

To shoot this rifle requires brass, bullets, and dies. None existed when the rifle came to Watson577. The cartridge seems to be a one-off; evidently a special order, unique in Holland & Holland production. Numerous entreaties to Holland & Holland for information on bullets and regulation produced nothing. These parts of H&H records went up in smoke under German bombs. So Watson577 essentially began with only this information:

* The cartridge has the head of a 16 bore;
* The rifle is proved as a 14 bore;and
* Load data engraved on side of action "Charge 9 drams, Brass Case 3-1/2 inches." (See all details in first post.)

For me, that would be the end of the road. An elegant wall hanger, thank you. But not for Watson577.

Among other skills, our dear Watson577 is an expert machinist. So he set out to make dies and brass cases. His effort produced an exquisite pair of loading dies, made out of 1-1/2" round stock.





Off to the heat-treater they went.

Then from brass bar stock he made cases; and beautiful ones!







They are properly annealed and ready to go!

The bullet remained a mystery. Holland had no record to identify its weight. Only trial-and-error will work now.

Watson577 made a push-through draw die and gathered up various large bullets from several sources. Here is his array of "try" bullets with information about their weights and origins (all to be paper-patched for trials).



So now it's time to load cartridges. Nine drams works out to 246 grains of black powder. That's a bunch of powder! Here are the first "try" cartridges, all loaded with 246 grains of GEOX Olde Eynford 1-1/2f.



And a couple of glamour shots.










These are rather large, to say the least.

November 26, 2016 was the day for firing the Bone Crusher. How many years had passed since this rifle was fired? We can only guess. Click the next link for a video of Watson577 firing these try-loads. The very first firing for him.



Video: First Shots from Bone Crusher 26 Nov 2016






We had another little shoot this past weekend. It was my turn to experience the Bone Crusher. Here are a few screen captures from my first shot (taken 06 Jan 2017).












That's the news on Jim's Bone Crusher. I've been an interested bystander through all this progress. Jim is a persistent wizard. He deserves an enormous amount of credit for making this fine old rifle again belch fire, smoke, and lead.

Curl



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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #293645 - 12/01/17 01:41 AM

Thanks for the update Curly. I was very excited to be at the first shooting back in November and I hope to make it to the next one.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Chasseur]
      #293662 - 12/01/17 09:01 AM

Curl,

Thank you for your kind words! I have been meaning to update this thread for some time now but I've just been too busy to do it. You did a fine job! I really enjoyed my visit this past weekend and I look forward to doing it again sometime soon. Maybe we can make some headway with the express rifles using black powder.

More testing with the Bone Crusher will be required but what sort of projectile it needs is still not exactly in sharp focus. Spherical ball--definitely not. Probably a bullet in the range of 900 grains is what it's calling for. Of course, I need to learn how to shoot better as well--that will help immensely!

Chasseur,

It was good to finally meet you back in November and Maybe we can meet down at Curl's place again sometime in the near future. You'll have to experience this rifle as well!

Cheers,

Jim


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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 243
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294013 - 18/01/17 10:48 AM

Wow...exquisite...superlative...there is no adequate adjective. Watson, your machine work is extraordinary. Very, very well done sir.

Cpt., it looks as if the recoil was attempting to flatten your nose with your right thumb!! Artillery sort of comes to mind..

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: sharps4590]
      #294034 - 19/01/17 05:01 AM

Quote:

. . .

Cpt., it looks as if the recoil was attempting to flatten your nose with your right thumb!! Artillery sort of comes to mind..




I've had that happen! Most recently with my H&H 10 bore Paradox.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294041 - 19/01/17 07:55 AM

I wonder if I have that same expression when I gire some of mine.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #294062 - 20/01/17 03:31 AM

Thanks for sharing Jim.

A 9dramer 16bore(.665bore). That caliber was the .585Nyathi of the 1890s.

Let us know about velocity when you get around that part.

Lovely rifle for sure.


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1274
Loc: Queensland
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #294067 - 20/01/17 08:20 AM

Do any double manufacturers still make the Jones style underlever hammer rifles? maybe Special order or no doubt if you kept pushing money in front of their noses some might come to the party eventually .

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294074 - 20/01/17 10:14 AM

Quote:

Do any double manufacturers still make the Jones style underlever hammer rifles? maybe Special order or no doubt if you kept pushing money in front of their noses some might come to the party eventually .




I don't know of any makers who do the Jones action currently; but like you say, money talks.

I do know that once you get hooked on a Jones action it's hard to go back to a toplever action. Just doesn't feel right.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39066
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294080 - 20/01/17 03:30 PM

Quote:



Video: First Shots from Bone Crusher 26 Nov 2016







Nice slow big push from the 16bore.

I like the portable standing rest. Any more photos of it? Is it adjustable for height?

Some more pics please, perhaps on a new dedicated thread. Thanks!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1274
Loc: Queensland
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294089 - 20/01/17 08:01 PM

Yes i saved some photos of the standing rest ,in the hope i can get off my arse and make one like it ,that rifle looks like it boots !

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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #294101 - 21/01/17 02:26 AM

Quote:


Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles



Even worse-I can put a 16+" barrel on my TC Contender pistol, chambered in .45-70 and shoot a deer with it. BUT, the instant I turn one screw and add a stock(legal at that barrel length) it becomes an illegal firearm for deer.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1274
Loc: Queensland
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Shackleton]
      #294106 - 21/01/17 07:47 AM

Were black powder doubles a nightmare to regulate ? considering how finicky some black powder guns can be to get to shoot [accurately]

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294145 - 22/01/17 02:31 PM

Jim asked me to post a link to his design of the portable standing rest seen in this thread. Here it is:

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/DR_Archive/Watson577/Bone_Crusher/Standing_Rest.PDF

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39066
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294165 - 22/01/17 11:13 PM

Quote:

Jim asked me to post a link to his design of the portable standing rest seen in this thread. Here it is:

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/DR_Archive/Watson577/Bone_Crusher/Standing_Rest.PDF

Curl




Thanks Curl!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Watson577
.300 member


Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #294176 - 23/01/17 07:55 AM

500Boswell,

I don't know for certain, but based on what I have read from period sources, I would say that rifles in the black powder era probably weren't any more difficult than Nitro Express rifles to regulate. I'm sure that if we had all of the same components available to us that were used originally to regulate these rifles, we would be more successful at making black powder ammunition that shoots properly. My experiences, however, haven’t been so good in that respect. Shooting ability also enters into the equation and I question my ability often!

Regards,

Jim


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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294185 - 23/01/17 11:06 AM

Roscoe, thank you for posting Jim's drawings for a standing rest. I think it is a most worthwhile piece of equipment to have, especially as nicely as Jim built them.

I have used a standing rest for a long time now. I believe these old double and light magazine rifles do not shoot as they should, either group wise or point of impact, if shot from a bench rest. They are hunting rifles, and a typical supported hunting shot needs to be replicated. The recoil from a heavier calibre is also easier to take with a standing rest.

If you don't have one already, I'd encourage you to build one like Jim's.


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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #294245 - 25/01/17 04:17 AM

I imagine there are quite a few stories in that old rifle - if only they could talk.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: HeymSR20]
      #294287 - 26/01/17 06:23 PM

What would a 16-bore rifle have been used for?

Back in the day, IMO and from armchair readings of vintage books, the rarer 4-bore and more common 8-bore were considered "elephant rifles".

Haven't read much about 10-bore rifles, like the one I have, but people have said, yes it could handle elephant. It will get a go on buffalo one day.

12-bore rifles were not considered elephant rifles. I have seen written historical accounts criticising their use on buffalo, gaur etc as being too light. No doubt they could kill buffalo, but interesting to see they might have been considered too light for buffalo by some historical writers.

The introduction of nitro cartridges changed the perception of bore size ranges and what was needed for what sort of game or situation. What we consider very large bores today were often medium game bores in the days before nitro cartridges.

I am currently reading Grogans, "Cape to Cairo" again, and it is always a bit shocking to read about their lack of success in killing bigger beasts, eg lion and buffalo. He writes about using a double ".500 Magnum", I presume a Black Powder Express? His shooting results would definitely be hopeless if it was a .500 NE.

Watson, what are your plans for this rifle? Deer. bear, perhaps a bison?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294288 - 26/01/17 06:32 PM

Prince Esterhazy with his 8-bore on tiger and panther. From Watson's opening post.

I reckon the lighter 16-bore could do well on 'panther' and tiger as well.

Quote:

I found the following account of hunting tigers very interesting and I thought that many of you would enjoy reading it. The article appeared in the Barton County Democrat newspaper of June 16, 1887 (Great Bend, Kansas—he went to America after leaving India in 1887):
.
Prince Esterhazy's Dangerous Adventure in Eastern Jungles
"Tiger hunting in India is best carried on by baiting with cattle, so I took a drove of forty head with me," said Prince Louis Esterhazy, of Austria. "A band of some thirty of the natives were started three weeks in advance to seek out the best hunting grounds and whenever a good spot was found one of the shikarees dropped out with a certain number of cattle to await my coming. In this way I was enabled to hunt in the wildest sections. The cattle were tied one by one to trees in the jungle in the margin of a circle sometimes as much as five miles across. They were placed there at night. The tigers came forth at night to seek their prey, and, finding the cattle, leaped upon, killed, and devoured as much as they cared to and went their way. Much of this country is low and wet, and the tigers could easily be tracked in the soft soil, especially by the expert native Indians. Following the tracks each successive morning after baiting we would come upon and shoot them. In this way in eleven months, with but a single gun, I myself killed nineteen tigers. This is the best record made in India in eighteen years. I had a very big rifle, what is known as an eight-bore gun, carrying twelve drachms powder. With this an expert is able to bring down even the largest tiger easily, and sometimes by a single shot. But the sportsman must be as quick as lightning, for no sooner does one of these wild tigers see you, even though he may be surfeited with food, than he will leap for you with all the quickness imaginable, and if you do not make sure work of it you are gone. The first two or three times, when undergoing these experiences, it made me somewhat nervous, for fear I would not make a center shot, but in time I got more confidence. I speak now of hunting tigers on foot, as I was doing. This is the most dangerous way, but it is more fascinating. I several times went off into the jungle entirely alone, and hunting in this way I had a number of very narrow escapes. On one occasion I was tracking a tiger and was raising my gun to shoot, having come upon it suddenly, when I was startled by the deep growl and rapid tread of another coming upon me. I was so hard pressed that, after shooting one I had to flee for my life, and only just escaped by climbing a tree. In the eleven months I many times slept out alone in a dismal jungle with only my blanket to keep off the rain. I suppose I underwent many such an experience, so far as exposure is concerned, as your American trapper and miner did in earlier and more dangerous days. Another way to hunt tigers is to do the shooting from elephants or camels. When this is done a smaller rifle is generally used. I hunted principally as much as two or three hundred miles away from the farthest outpost. I had a regular caravan of elephants, shikarees, tents and various equipage, but wandering away by myself I was forced to camp and rough it and endure hard ships which I hardly anticipated. This was the case when, for quite a long period, all my servants got sick with fever. I shot more and bigger tigers during the rainy months. In ten days in July I shot five tigers and a panther. A tiger always comes from a hill and goes back to a hill. He will not stay long on low ground. Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.”




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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sharps4590
.300 member


Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 243
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Shackleton]
      #294307 - 26/01/17 11:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles



Even worse-I can put a 16+" barrel on my TC Contender pistol, chambered in .45-70 and shoot a deer with it. BUT, the instant I turn one screw and add a stock(legal at that barrel length) it becomes an illegal firearm for deer.




Over a few decades of observation it has become my considered opinion that game agencies have absolutely no concept of ballistics.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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