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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294309 - 27/01/17 02:55 AM

Quote:


. . .

I am currently reading Grogans, "Cape to Cairo" again, and it is always a bit shocking to read about their lack of success in killing bigger beasts, eg lion and buffalo. He writes about using a double ".500 Magnum", I presume a Black Powder Express? His shooting results would definitely be hopeless if it was a .500 NE.

. . .






John,

In all likelihood the reference to a ".500 Magnum" was a reference to the .577/500 Magnum Express 3-1/8".



Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Huvius
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294314 - 27/01/17 07:17 AM





Someday I really want to rechamber my 50/110 Ruger No1 to that cartridge!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #294321 - 27/01/17 09:16 AM

NitroX,

I didn't grow up with a hunting tradition in my family and I have never been hunting. For this reason, it is very unlikely that I will ever use this rifle for the purpose that it was originally intended for. The history, fine workmanship and styling have been what draws me so strongly to these rifles. For some reason that I don't quite understand, game guns or shotguns as we call them in the US, don't interest me nearly as much.

Unless I suddenly feel the urge to go hunting, I just plan to continue researching the history of this rifle and abusing my shoulder I hope to develop a good load using the original 9-dram charge. So far, it seems that the rifle isn't all that sensitive to bullet weight but my best results so far were with bullets that weight about 900-grains. A lot more testing and practice will be necessary, however, in order to find the correct load.

As for what it could be used for, my hunch is that it will take anything that you want to use it for. If I remember correctly, Arthur Neumann hunted elephants during his first season using a 577 black powder express with a great degree of success. Another bit of insight is provided by the circa 1890 Holland & Holland catalog, where I found the following testimonials on page 24:

**********************************************************************************************
Letter from Major F. Gordon Cumming:--

“The 12 bore rifle is simply perfect. I fired my first shot out of it at a charging rogue elephant; he fell down all of a heap. I probed the wound and found the ball had penetrated an immense distance.”
____________________________________________________________________________________
Letter from Prince Louis Esterhazy:-- September 18th, 1886.

“Your rifles have given me the greatest satisfaction. I shot fifteen tigers with them and killed several rhinos and buffaloes, with one single bullet behind the shoulder, with the 12 bore rifle. They never went more than twenty yards, and dropped stone dead—a proof of their great killing power.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Letter from Lieut. S. Pulley, R.N.:--

“Your rifle I am very much pleased with. My party last season got exactly fifty elephants, more than half of which I killed with your 16 bore rifle (shooting 8 drams and cone ball).”

**********************************************************************************************

The last testimonial is the most interesting because that rifle was probably very similar to mine. Since I have no actual experience with such things, all that I can do is go by what tidbits I can find in the historical record. At some point, I would like to take some velocity measurements using 800 and 900-grain bullets. I'm curious what sort of Taylor K.O. numbers would result.

Best Regards,

Jim


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MikeRowe
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294330 - 27/01/17 10:38 AM

If you want to try that rifle out on deer, Jim, come down here. Shorty and I got half a dozen this season - they're all over the place. However, we may have to trek to the next county to recover them
if you use that big rifle. They're not very big.

I can attest that the 577/500 magnum has no felt recoil - all one has to do is to shoot it right after shooting Watson577's 8 bore rifle. You don't feel a thing......


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #294365 - 28/01/17 09:09 AM

I thought maybe Jim would update with this information. He's really busy doing real-world things, so I'll update for him.

Question: Do you think our Watson577 would be satisfied with the wonderful pieces of brass he hand-crafted for this rifle? Well, certainly not until they look proper! They have no headstamp.




But that's not a problem. He had a headstamp die made:




And into the big press it went:






And it worked against the plain brass heads:




And that which was once plain is now adorned with a proper headstamp. Problem solved.









Beauties, aren't they?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294377 - 28/01/17 12:53 PM

Curl,

I sure do appreciate your updating this thread for me! Thank you for all of the nice comments as well!

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294380 - 28/01/17 12:56 PM

Mike,

The Bone Crusher is an awful lot of rifle for deer but maybe I'll take you up on your offer one of these days!

Thanks,

Jim


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93x64mm
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294387 - 28/01/17 04:38 PM

CaptCurl - you do most excellent work!
Watson will be most pleased......they certainly are beauties!
With that moniker on them they would be legal anywhere in the hunting world.
As for a deer with them, a single 1" hole bored all the way through with virtually no meat loss!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #294388 - 28/01/17 04:39 PM

Thanks for the replies Watson and Curl.

Amazing all the detail on the brass.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #294401 - 28/01/17 11:39 PM

Quote:

CaptCurl - you do most excellent work!
Watson will be most pleased......they certainly are beauties!
With that moniker on them they would be legal anywhere in the hunting world.
As for a deer with them, a single 1" hole bored all the way through with virtually no meat loss!





No, no, no!

I did none of this work. Watson577 did it. Not me. I'm just reporting it for him.

He's the talented wizard. I'm the interested bystander.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294402 - 28/01/17 11:41 PM

I didn't even take the pictures. He did and sent them to me by email.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #294409 - 29/01/17 07:43 AM

You're so modest Curl - makes ME blush - it was all you - really --

We know it was Watson all the time. HA!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470evans
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #294739 - 04/02/17 02:41 AM

Wow!

I am impressed with both the rifle and the skills needed to get it running again. I truly enjoyed watching the progress.

Thank you for posting.


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: 470evans]
      #295556 - 20/02/17 11:05 AM

Hello Guys,

I have recently done some more testing using a bullet that I designed from an original Holland & Holland 12-bore bullet. The ones in the photos weight 888-grains in 15:1 alloy and with 250-grains of Olde Eynsford 1-1/2 black powder, the velocities measured with a Magnetospeed Sporter chronograph, alternating right and left were:

1486 ft/s
1495 ft/s
1493 ft/s
1506 ft/s
1496 ft/s

These shots were fired after eight previous shots without cleaning the bores first. The custom bullet mould was made by Accurate Molds, LLC in about two weeks. The quality is excellent and it only cost me $78 plus shipping! As you can see on the target, the barrels are crossing slightly and also a little to the left. The front sight is bent a bit to the right so that's likely what's going on there. I have an order in for a 1000-grain version of that bullet mould and if that doesn't uncross the barrels, I'll leave well enough alone because it ought to uncross at least a little more and that's certainly good enough for what this rifle was probably meant for.












That's all for now.

Cheers,

Jim


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295582 - 20/02/17 11:30 PM

Jim,

That's some real horsepower pushing a 2 ounce bullet at 1500 fps. Same ballistics as my 10 bore Paradox.

Did the muzzle-mounted chronograph have any effect on regulation? I'm assuming the target was shot without the chronograph in place. Were the readings reliable?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #295583 - 21/02/17 12:30 AM

Curl,

I didn't even attempt to chronograph shots while shooting at a target because I'm certain that doing so will throw off the regulation. The chronograph worked perfectly, I just didn't have six cartridges so that's why there were only five velocities reported. After the last shooting session, I lost my first case but that was my fault I'm pretty sure. When I was resizing the cases, I heard a cracking sound as I ran the last case into the resizing die. The mouth split for about 1/4" starting at the mouth and I know why. I had annealed those cases before the forming operation but not afterwards. I had thought that the cases were moving by such a small amount between firing and resizing that work hardening wouldn't be a problem but I figured wrong! If I had annealed again after forming, that case probably would not have cracked. Now I think that I'll anneal after every firing just to be safe. I want these cases to last as long as possible for obvious reasons.

Regarding the power of this rifle, it is indeed very similar to the 10-bore Paradox. The hole size is smaller but the amount of lead and the muzzle velocities are about the same--at least with my current load. With proper regulation, the velocities and /or bullet weight might need to increase. One thing that I'm sure of is that the powder that I'm using is not the equal of Curtis's & Harvey's number 6. We found that out during our Express rifle tests. Another thing with this rifle is that I'll bet that you can use a very wide range of projectile types in it. With a 27" twist, it will stabilize a bullet that is around 2" long! Steel-cored as well as explosive projectiles are possible and may have been one of the reasons for this unusual design. Explosive projectiles would have been very effective against tiger and other thin-skinned game and lead-sheathed, steel-cored projectiles of this weight could have been used against elephants, gaur or other "iron plated monsters" as Captain Forsyth referred to them. I, of course, have no direct experience so this is purely conjecture. Since volumes 1-9 of the Holland & Holland day books were destroyed during the London bombings of WWII, we will probably never know. I still hold out hope that I'll uncover some writings of Prince Esterhazy that might shed some light on this subject but barring that happening I'm almost certainly out of luck in this respect.

I really wonder if better regulation could be achieved with that fine-grained Olde Eynsford 2F powder that seems to be so elusive. I might try the coarse-grained version that I have just to see if there is any difference at all between it and the 1-1/2F Olde Eynsford that I have been using so far. One thing is clear and that's that I need a bit more recoil to achieve proper regulation. Fortunately, this rifle is so well designed that this doesn't worry me. It handles very well during recoil and doesn't exhibit any nasty tendencies. My fingers haven't been banged around yet. The 8-bore cracked my middle finger bone because of the trigger guard! So far, the "Bone Crusher" name seems to refer to the intended target and not the shooter

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #295593 - 21/02/17 06:37 AM

In the round ball era of the 1850's and 60's - the 16 bore was considered by many to be the minimum for tiger, elephant (India) and buffalo, this, according to Lt. James Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle And Its Projectiles, printed in 1862.

The 14 bore SXS or single, was the ultimate for these animals for the hunter to carry himself.

With the change to ctg. guns using conical bullets that could be hardened, the breech loaders surpassed the 16 to 8 bore round ball guns that were previously favoured for India, as hard balls could be used in them and out penetrated the soft lead conicals (necessary to take the rifling) of the day.

I dare say, this 16 bore was quite capable of 'taking' elephant of either country due to it's huge powder charge and hardened concial that would work in 27" of twist.

Note also, back in the mid to late 1800's, many English gun makers though MORE twist made the gun shoot harder, with many round balls guns have 36" rates of twist. They simply did not shoot well, due to 'stripping' with any big game charge.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295621 - 21/02/17 11:51 PM

Quote:

In the round ball era of the 1850's and 60's - the 16 bore was considered by many to be the minimum for tiger, elephant (India) and buffalo, this, according to Lt. James Forsyth's The Sporting Rifle And Its Projectiles, printed in 1862.

The 14 bore SXS or single, was the ultimate for these animals for the hunter to carry himself.





Which is probably why we always read early accounts of these guys shooting animals a "dozen" times and numerous animals escaping ...

Thanks for the reference supporting the comment. I think Forsyth, was a recommender of inadequate firearms. Like some experts have also done in the nitro cartridge age.

If I ever get my 10 bore shooting, it will be interesting to see how it handles water buffalo. It is on my objective list for this year to get it shooting. Will depend on how much or anything needs custom making or importing.

And it is definitely light enough for a hunter to carry himself.

Daryl, thanks for the reply.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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nopride2
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #295905 - 27/02/17 03:17 AM

Watson

Good looking mold. A heck of a buy at $78.00. I'll keep Accurate Molds on my list for when I need a new mold. Nice rifle and an interesting project.

Dave


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: nopride2]
      #295906 - 27/02/17 04:12 AM

perhaps:

Reference about Samuel Baker in the book.

"Mr. Baker has stated, that 4 1/2 drams will drive a ball of that size through both sides of an elephant's head, and with 4 1/2 or even 5 drams may be used in such a rifle without any very unpleasant recoil, and without any bad effect on the accuracy of the ball, but the reverse."

He went on to describe the slow rate of twist necessary for the round ball gun, unlike the current makers who are putting in too fast a twist.

Seems to me John Taylor used a .577/450 (480gr. at about 1,340fps) for a period in his poaching career due to losing his other "rifles" in a river.

That rifle the ultimate, no - did it work? I don't know, seems to have worked.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lonewulf
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295907 - 27/02/17 05:26 AM



Hi Watson

Just wondering; has any thought been given to the use of longer projectiles in the rifle? I haven't shot BP for may years now but with a 1 in 27 twist??? I'd have thought a longer (paper patched) projectile might do quite well.


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: lonewulf]
      #295911 - 27/02/17 10:12 AM

Hi there Lonewulf,

A paper patched bullet would be about the same length as the grease grooved bullet unless the ogive is lengthened and the bearing length is reduced. I based the bullet design on original Holland & Holland 12-bore and 8-bore designs but a longer bullet could certainly be made--especially a Forsyth shell or hollow pointed design. That twist rate certainly leaves a lot of options, but I was trying to make what I think is the closest thing to the design that was originally used.

Regards,

Jim


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295912 - 27/02/17 10:37 AM

Now that you mention it, it might be a 'shell rifle' afterall, designed for exploding bullets.
Since you mentioned it, Jim, I suspect you have the book.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #295995 - 28/02/17 11:29 AM

Hi Daryl,

As you can see below, Prince Esterhazy was aware of Captain James Forsyth since he wrote "Captain James Forsyth Highlands of Central India" inside of a book or travel map that he used for planning his trip to India in 1886/87. I'll bet that he had a copy of "the Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". I always thought that 1888 was a bit late for a rifle built to use explosive shells but who knows, anything is possible. Something else that I find interesting are the travel times are written on the opposite page:

Hong Kong Yokohama 7 days
Yokohama San Francisco 22 days
San Francisco New York ? days
New York London 10 days

This is from a book written in German that I found. There is a whole chapter with a lot of great photographs in it but I have been hesitant to upload the photos because of potential copyright issues. I suppose that if they don't like this being online, they can tell me to take it down.

Regards,

Jim



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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #295996 - 28/02/17 11:34 AM

I shot a 3/4" thick steel plate with this rifle this past weekend and I was very surprised to see that it actually cratered the steel! The depth from the lip to the bottom of the crater was about 0.15" deep. I was expecting to see nothing more than a bright spot where the bullet hit but this is what I found:







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